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As mentioned, you don't have to buy anything...short of finding points changes from the latest Chapter Approved (something you can easily do online, or borrow a friends book and snap a pic of your section). You do not need to own the Vigilus book, and the Shadowspear stuff was put out as a free PDF with this same article.

While I'm happy to see the Cultist nerf, I'm shocked they likely won't be 4 points a model. As an exceptionally sub-par unit (already - only powerful because of the occasional stratagem), the 5 point cost looks much worse with them losing legion traits. Guard now tower over them for a point less...pretty tough to see that continue to get worse.

-Worse leadership
-Worse armour
-No orders
-No trait
-More expensive.

Doesn't sit particularly well.

All we know for definite so far is that this Mere Mortals rule applies to armies using these Black Legion rules.

Can we avoid further Cultist vs. IG bitching until the book is actually out - or, at least, until there is a preview article looking at the changes? It has derailed enough threads in the past, after all.

 Dysartes wrote:
All we know for definite so far is that this Mere Mortals rule applies to armies using these Black Legion rules.

Can we avoid further Cultist vs. IG bitching until the book is actually out - or, at least, until there is a preview article looking at the changes? It has derailed enough threads in the past, after all.

Amusing dismisal of a valid concern.
Then again until we see that they applied this to all cultists you are right, however if we allready know that BL cultists won't get the trait i belive it to be a Safe bet that the others will also lose their traits.

BrianDavion wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Interesting though, if you look very closely at the preview page on the WHC site you can see a rule called ‘Mere Mortals’ which seems to indicate that Cultists do not get Legion traits.

That’s unfortunate.

means we've got a reason for taking actual chaos space marine troops so IMHO it's not a bad call at all. use cultists as bullet fodder to fill out detachments and give more CPs to your worthwhile units, just like the chaos gods intended

Though if chaos marines don't get buffed it doesnt' really help. Making good unit bad doesn't make bad unit good. It just results in 2 bad units. While you might see more chaos marines overall power level would drop.

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Interesting though, if you look very closely at the preview page on the WHC site you can see a rule called ‘Mere Mortals’ which seems to indicate that Cultists do not get Legion traits.

That’s unfortunate.

means we've got a reason for taking actual chaos space marine troops so IMHO it's not a bad call at all. use cultists as bullet fodder to fill out detachments and give more CPs to your worthwhile units, just like the chaos gods intended

Though if chaos marines don't get buffed it doesnt' really help. Making good unit bad doesn't make bad unit good. It just results in 2 bad units. While you might see more chaos marines overall power level would drop.

ohh I don't disagree, as I said I'd like to see CSMs have a CCW in addition to their bolt gun, that little change IMHO would really make CSMs a lot better as well as move them into the role GW clearly envisions us playing them as

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Interesting though, if you look very closely at the preview page on the WHC site you can see a rule called ‘Mere Mortals’ which seems to indicate that Cultists do not get Legion traits.

That’s unfortunate.

means we've got a reason for taking actual chaos space marine troops so IMHO it's not a bad call at all. use cultists as bullet fodder to fill out detachments and give more CPs to your worthwhile units, just like the chaos gods intended

Though if chaos marines don't get buffed it doesnt' really help. Making good unit bad doesn't make bad unit good. It just results in 2 bad units. While you might see more chaos marines overall power level would drop.

ohh I don't disagree, as I said I'd like to see CSMs have a CCW in addition to their bolt gun, that little change IMHO would really make CSMs a lot better as well as move them into the role GW clearly envisions us playing them as

Yeah because the CCW will put us in the correct pricing bracket to be efficent with our troops, which allready struggle to be pts efficent.
Sarcasm btw.

You know, I was kinda hoping they'd do a reprint or something with the new units in them. Rather tired of carrying Vigilus around for the two pages of it dedicated to GSC rules.

Why should they, Selling books is the easiest way to let the population of Veterans that allready have established collections pay up.
That or create new models / units.

Now of these creating new rules is easier, printing more rules all over the place also. Ergo higher margin for earnings, ergo the logical thing to do.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Why should they, Selling books is the easiest way to let the population of Veterans that allready have established collections pay up.
That or create new models / units.

Now of these creating new rules is easier, printing more rules all over the place also. Ergo higher margin for earnings, ergo the logical thing to do.

I mean, I'd literally buy a new GSC codex tomorrow if it came out with the vigilus formations and updated point values, so yeah, you're right.

Or you could sit there and play with what you've already got, for the collection you've already got. Unless you're considering a new chaos army like me and a bunch of people drooling over the shadowspear box, this isn't massively relevant to your collection. Heck, we should check back when this comes out and see if there's even a single formation you can do with your existing stuff, I'll be curious.

Seems like they've handled it as elegantly as could be done. They aren't forcing you to re-buy but are providing a convenience option should you prefer that.

Umbros wrote:
Seems like they've handled it as elegantly as could be done. They aren't forcing you to re-buy but are providing a convenience option should you prefer that.

I will still need the Vigilus one no?

So i will still pay up.

And whilest the upgraded CSM codex would be a convenience, there is a issue that you can't trade in your old one for the new one, now that would be convenient

Wayniac wrote:
The "new" codex is just updated with the FAQs, new Datasheet (i.e. from Shadowspear and anything new) and points from Chapter Approved. It's not actually a new codex, they did the absolute laziest thing possible since it probably won't have any changes unless there is something new like updated obliterators.

The chart even says if you already own the codex, you don't need the new one.

Laziest thing possible?

Seriously, this community will never be happy. They could mail out gold for free and people would find something to complain about.

This is exactly what loads of people have been asking for! It's a book that compiles all changes to the codex to date into one book. That's fantastic! The fact you don't need it if you can't afford it is actually a really cool move on GWs part. If it included exclusive rules you'd be forced to buy it. Instead it's just a neat QoL improvement for people getting into the game new.

It's great!

Seriously, this community will never be happy. They could mail out gold for free and people would find something to complain about.

This is exactly what loads of people have been asking for! It's a book that compiles all changes to the codex to date into one book. That's fantastic! The fact you don't need it if you can't afford it is actually a really cool move on GWs part. If it included exclusive rules you'd be forced to buy it. Instead it's just a neat QoL improvement for people getting into the game new.

Damn it GW! This gold you sent me now means I need a security box and have to carry this thing through town while avoiding being mugged! Incompetent GW!

I like what GW is doing. They even mark on the codex that it is version 2.0 instead of parading it as a new codex. What this might mean is that 8th is here to stay since they are updating codexes within the edition and not per edition.

Hold on, if we have the old Codex we can download the new datasheets from Shadowspear, which is fine. But they don't have points values, only PL. Is GW going to provide points values for those units for those who don't buy the Codex? I may have missed it but I don't see them anywhere. Yes, I'm aware Battlescribe exists, but not everyone is and it seems like a cop-out to say "you can get the new rules for free" if they don't actually include all the rules you need.

Slipspace wrote:
Hold on, if we have the old Codex we can download the new datasheets from Shadowspear, which is fine. But they don't have points values, only PL. Is GW going to provide points values for those units for those who don't buy the Codex? I may have missed it but I don't see them anywhere. Yes, I'm aware Battlescribe exists, but not everyone is and it seems like a cop-out to say "you can get the new rules for free" if they don't actually include all the rules you need.

Is there really an active enough player out there who follows all the online FAQs/Erratas/Reads WHC so they can see the rules PDF and download it, who then also DOESN'T know and use Battlescribe?

Like, is there actually some poor sod out there sitting in a pile of Codexes, Chapter Approveds, Indexes, printed out FAQs, with a pen and paper trying to figure out a list like "Okay, now carry the three..."

the_scotsman wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Hold on, if we have the old Codex we can download the new datasheets from Shadowspear, which is fine. But they don't have points values, only PL. Is GW going to provide points values for those units for those who don't buy the Codex? I may have missed it but I don't see them anywhere. Yes, I'm aware Battlescribe exists, but not everyone is and it seems like a cop-out to say "you can get the new rules for free" if they don't actually include all the rules you need.

Is there really an active enough player out there who follows all the online FAQs/Erratas/Reads WHC so they can see the rules PDF and download it, who then also DOESN'T know and use Battlescribe?

Like, is there actually some poor sod out there sitting in a pile of Codexes, Chapter Approveds, Indexes, printed out FAQs, with a pen and paper trying to figure out a list like "Okay, now carry the three..."

Yes. I know of plenty - literally more than a dozen. That's beside the point though, for two reasons. Firstly, BS is not a GW product so GW telling us they're providing all those extra rules for free when the only way to get the complete rules for free is to use BS is disingenuous at best. Secondly, what do we do if there's a dispute about the accuracy of BS? As great as BS is, it's pretty universally recognised by its users that you should have access to the most recent points values form official GW sources in case anyone queries the costs of your stuff - maybe not immediately on the spot but at least in theory.

It's my hope that the upcoming FAQ applies Mere Mortals to cultists of any legion (assuming Vigilus doesn't do that already somehow), as well as prevent them from using VOTLW and even the mark-specific stratagems (possibly by removing Heretic Astartes)

Wayniac wrote:
It's my hope that the upcoming FAQ applies Mere Mortals to cultists of any legion (assuming Vigilus doesn't do that already somehow), as well as prevent them from using VOTLW and even the mark-specific stratagems (possibly by removing Heretic Astartes)

That would lead to what excactly ?

 Eldarsif wrote:

So the codex is like DLC and CA is a seson pass?

No. Think of it more as a Game of the Year edition. It takes the core codex and gives you it plus all season passes and updates.

Seems good. It is really nice that they update old books, and not just do new stuff.


The cultists change does seem strange though. The books must have been ready more or less at the same time as CA, and IG weren't changed in it. Now nerfing cultists without any changes to csm, won't make csm a valid option. People will just run more tzangors, and probably still the nerfed cultists .

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
It's my hope that the upcoming FAQ applies Mere Mortals to cultists of any legion (assuming Vigilus doesn't do that already somehow), as well as prevent them from using VOTLW and even the mark-specific stratagems (possibly by removing Heretic Astartes)

That would lead to what excactly ?

Stopping people thinking cultist spam is how you play Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly though this came up in a chat with the other people on my podcast (blatant shill: It's called Cast the Dice and we talk every week about Warhammer)

GW really needs to do more than two faqs a year and chapter approved where faqs only change rules and CA only changes points. They need to do like at least 3-4 updates that are actual errata; that could be rules changes, or point changes, or both, and then Chapter Approved should consolidate those changes at the end of the year into one book.

There are too many changes that they just "don't get around to this time" which they need to.

 Stux wrote:

Laziest thing possible?

Seriously, this community will never be happy. They could mail out gold for free and people would find something to complain about.

This is exactly what loads of people have been asking for! It's a book that compiles all changes to the codex to date into one book. That's fantastic! The fact you don't need it if you can't afford it is actually a really cool move on GWs part. If it included exclusive rules you'd be forced to buy it. Instead it's just a neat QoL improvement for people getting into the game new.

It's great!

Maybe people are wrong, but I can imagine someone could not be very happy, if he now has to buy an updated book, but the good stuff got nerfed and the bad stuff stayed the same kind of bad. Its like Grey Knights going from index to codex. Your not going to say they got gold in their codex. And you do have to buy new book, if you want to keep using stuff like oblits or use any of the new units.

People are never welcome to pay for anything, but you could make them be less salty about it, if they get a lot of new good stuff in it. If the new book had reworked old unit, reworked relics, stratagams and psychic powers. Or another words this was a new book, more people would be happy. Right now this looks like another CA type book you have to buy if you want to play.

It's not even that, it's that they could have taken the time to actually revamp the faction and fix the parts that are bad. Instead its "lazy" because it's literally the same book, with the updated sheets and points, with "II" slapped on it. No revised legion traits, no revised datasheets/updated points (only what's in chapter approved already). That's what makes it lazy. Especially since you don't even need to buy it if you already own the other book (unless you wanted it all in one place, I guess)

When people wanted an updated codex they meant like 3.0 -> 3.5, not what is basically a second printing.

Stopping people thinking cultist spam is how you play Chaos.

But if you take away stuff and give nothing in return, they you are just forcing people to either switch armies, not play at all or play bad armies.And playing bad armies is not very fun. I would rather have an army with a less interactive army that works, then no army at all.

Karol wrote:
But if you take away stuff and give nothing in return, they you are just forcing people to either switch armies, not play at all or play bad armies.And playing bad armies is not very fun. I would rather have an army with a less interactive army that works, then no army at all.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Cult Marines return to being troops, which would at least address the variety issue, if not the points cost.

Well I have no idea. I don't think many cult units are played offten though. They seem to be just higher cost CSM. Even the god specific books don't use their cult troops. 1ksons run tzangors with soup, same with nurgle troop unit. nurglings are just cheaper and leave more points to get primarachs, knights and demon princes.

Now am sad, because I thought that the csm codex is a full rewrite, if it is just reprinting of CA point costs and new oblits etc it seem kind of a wasted chance to fix bad units. I hope future rewrites of codex won't be like that. I mean if this was BA and the only change was to nerf scouts, BA players probably won't be happy either.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Umbros wrote:
Seems like they've handled it as elegantly as could be done. They aren't forcing you to re-buy but are providing a convenience option should you prefer that.

I will still need the Vigilus one no?

So i will still pay up.

And whilest the upgraded CSM codex would be a convenience, there is a issue that you can't trade in your old one for the new one, now that would be convenient

But you aren't paying for the same stuff again. Buying Vigilus gives you NEW things.

Wayniac wrote:
It's not even that, it's that they could have taken the time to actually revamp the faction and fix the parts that are bad. Instead its "lazy" because it's literally the same book, with the updated sheets and points, with "II" slapped on it. No revised legion traits, no revised datasheets/updated points (only what's in chapter approved already). That's what makes it lazy. Especially since you don't even need to buy it if you already own the other book (unless you wanted it all in one place, I guess)

When people wanted an updated codex they meant like 3.0 -> 3.5, not what is basically a second printing.

This. A 1000 times this.

How people can think it is "awesome" to pay for a new book to get a couple new datasheets and update points in an otherwise unchanged book is beyond my understanding.

Wayniac wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
It's my hope that the upcoming FAQ applies Mere Mortals to cultists of any legion (assuming Vigilus doesn't do that already somehow), as well as prevent them from using VOTLW and even the mark-specific stratagems (possibly by removing Heretic Astartes)

That would lead to what excactly ?

Stopping people thinking cultist spam is how you play Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly though this came up in a chat with the other people on my podcast (blatant shill: It's called Cast the Dice and we talk every week about Warhammer)

GW really needs to do more than two faqs a year and chapter approved where faqs only change rules and CA only changes points. They need to do like at least 3-4 updates that are actual errata; that could be rules changes, or point changes, or both, and then Chapter Approved should consolidate those changes at the end of the year into one book.

There are too many changes that they just "don't get around to this time" which they need to.

This is stupid sentiment to have, You wont start using CSM just because cultists got even worse.
Why because they are still cheaper to get CP.
Also it's a nerf for a unit which is the only decent troop slot.

stormcraft wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
It's not even that, it's that they could have taken the time to actually revamp the faction and fix the parts that are bad. Instead its "lazy" because it's literally the same book, with the updated sheets and points, with "II" slapped on it. No revised legion traits, no revised datasheets/updated points (only what's in chapter approved already). That's what makes it lazy. Especially since you don't even need to buy it if you already own the other book (unless you wanted it all in one place, I guess)

When people wanted an updated codex they meant like 3.0 -> 3.5, not what is basically a second printing.

This. A 1000 times this.

How people can think it is "awesome" to pay for a new book to get a couple new datasheets and update points in an otherwise unchanged book is beyond my understanding.

The only explanation I can think of is the old term of "endearment" for GW fans in the kirby era: GWombies. GW didn't have to do it so we should be thankful they are, or some such.

Wayniac wrote:
The only explanation I can think of is the old term of "endearment" for GW fans in the kirby era: GWombies. GW didn't have to do it so we should be thankful they are, or some such.

The chart pretty clearly states that if you already own the CSM codex you only need to buy Vigilus. Now whether that will actually be true or not is another matter for spirited conjecture and debate.