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Karol wrote:

Pleasestop 773029 10386120 wrote:

Literally stop buying 40k then if all of your money is tied up in I or like, pop off your weapons that you can't use and get some left over bits from a friend's bit box. If no one you play with has any extra bits then they are as annoyed with you as I am.

But GK terminators, painted black are Deathwatch terminators with stormbolter and sword. A halbred can easily be made into a power maul.

Incinerators are heavy flamers Or Flamers.

If you didn't bring it up, no one else would, because GK are the exception that proves the rule and honestly arent as bad off as most armies were last edition.

Reading and writing are free, as are a ton of online games.

I don't get where you find free reading, here a book costs 12$. You could technically go to the library, and I do that for school, but it is a 2 hour bus trip there and a 2 hour trip back. Plus it does nothing about the money I have stuck in w40k. My sister got a tablet for her confirmation, I got convinced to start w40k. She has good time with her stuff every day. I felt good, up until I started playing non intreduction games

I think you should really think about taking a break from the hobby for a while.

I'm not saying to sell your models or anything, but take your collection, box it up somewhere safe and then step away from it for 12 months or so.

Just because you already have money invested into something, doesn't mean you have to continue torturing yourself with something you very clearly don't enjoy.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Then why is it all of a sudden "popular"? Good is subjective. I would say 8th is actually good, it's just not great, which I think many wish it were.

Because Shiny Marketing to a young male demographic is more important than quality.

Yeah but they have been doing that for a lot of time, they surely didn't start with 8th. So, why did the big sales come only now?
All signs point to the game being simply better than in it was in previous editions, and my personal experience confirms it.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

Karol wrote:

Pleasestop 773029 10386120 wrote:

Literally stop buying 40k then if all of your money is tied up in I or like, pop off your weapons that you can't use and get some left over bits from a friend's bit box. If no one you play with has any extra bits then they are as annoyed with you as I am.

But GK terminators, painted black are Deathwatch terminators with stormbolter and sword. A halbred can easily be made into a power maul.

Incinerators are heavy flamers Or Flamers.

If you didn't bring it up, no one else would, because GK are the exception that proves the rule and honestly arent as bad off as most armies were last edition.

Reading and writing are free, as are a ton of online games.

I don't get where you find free reading, here a book costs 12$. You could technically go to the library, and I do that for school, but it is a 2 hour bus trip there and a 2 hour trip back. Plus it does nothing about the money I have stuck in w40k. My sister got a tablet for her confirmation, I got convinced to start w40k. She has good time with her stuff every day. I felt good, up until I started playing non intreduction games

I think you should really think about taking a break from the hobby for a while.

I'm not saying to sell your models or anything, but take your collection, box it up somewhere safe and then step away from it for 12 months or so.

Just because you already have money invested into something, doesn't mean you have to continue torturing yourself with something you very clearly don't enjoy.

@Pleasestop 773029 10386120 This isn't a bad idea. I quit 40k, but there's no way in Papa Nurgle's Garden that I'll ever get rid of my minis. (I recently acquired some more second-hand!) Breaks are healthy. And, there are a bunch of cool games out there outside of the GW-bubble; you can use your 40k stuff with them! For some inexpensive, quality rulesets, check out Maelstrom's Edge, (an impeccable game) or my new favorite skirmish game, Zone Raiders.

Spoletta wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Then why is it all of a sudden "popular"? Good is subjective. I would say 8th is actually good, it's just not great, which I think many wish it were.

Because Shiny Marketing to a young male demographic is more important than quality.

Yeah but they have been doing that for a lot of time, they surely didn't start with 8th. So, why did the big sales come only now?
All signs point to the game being simply better than in it was in previous editions, and my personal experience confirms it.

I think the main thing they've done different is not appeal directly (and only) to their old demographic of seasoned grognards. I would bet a very significant portion of GW's growth is coming from the small scale games with easy entry like Shadespire and Kill Team. It changes who's willing to get into their games a lot when the entry fee is about as much as a good board game rather than... well, half a dozen good board games.

The game isn't in a great place relative to other competitive games, both virtual and tabletop.

The game IS arguably the most balanced GW have ever managed and for that they should get plaudits.

I read their comment in the FAQ 'update' as more of a "don't expect big balance changes here guys. For those you'll have to pay." Than a real statement of their opinion of the game. Though I have no doubt they're deluded enough to be patting themselves on the back, along with the playtesters, for a job well done.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The game isn't in a great place relative to other competitive games, both virtual and tabletop.

The game IS arguably the most balanced GW have ever managed and for that they should get plaudits.

I read their comment in the FAQ 'update' as more of a "don't expect big balance changes here guys. For those you'll have to pay." Than a real statement of their opinion of the game. Though I have no doubt they're deluded enough to be patting themselves on the back, along with the playtesters, for a job well done.

I wouldn't be surprised here if you got a point.

 Togusa wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drager wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeah, I think this Chaos release might actually be the single largest faction release of 8th edition so far. GW's been pretty good at spreading the love around over the past couple years to be honest, even the factions that haven't gotten big releases have at least gotten small character model updates. Gripes about GW releasing Space Marines and only Space Marines are mostly a holdover from the decisions of a guy who is no longer making decisions for the company. :v

Certain factions have gotten nothing at all. Drukhari for instance.

It. Takes. Time.

We've just completed the codex cycle. This chaos release is the first major release of new models since the Thousand Son, Custodes, Death Guard launch era, not counting GSC. We've seen our first SM character get the primaris treatment. For Godsakes we've even seen GW capitulate to community outcry with the changes that happened to Haarkan Worldclaimer. Also, last I check that Dark Eldar codex is pretty baller. I've been on the receiving end of that a few times and it's quite nasty.

You cannot reasonably expect them to fully update every old model in under two years. It took over a year just to get *most* of the codexes done and out, let alone the Sisters Launch which again, also came from community outcry.

I don't disagree. I was simply pointing out that some factions haven't gotten anything and, whilst the DE codex is strong and that's nice it also lost more options (as DE have with every release for a decade). This was also expected. I don't expect we will get anything at all. We got models in '98 and 2011 and have otherwise lost units and characters as they have gone out of production/had their rules squatted. I'm not seriously expecting any support for the faction beyond a potential rules change for several years at the very least. We didn't even get any rules changes for those units in the codex which are seriously overcosted in CA 2018, probably because about three-quarters of the units are fine or better. I'm happy with where 40k is at the moment, but at the same time claiming GW are being good at spreading the love doesn't ring true when my primary faction has had bupkiss (beyond a mandatory codex release everyone got) since 2011 and Primaris are rapidly approaching having the same number of units we do. Again, not really complaining just pointing out that a claim that " even the factions that haven't gotten big releases have at least gotten small character model updates." isn't true.

Well I like Chaos with an emphasis on Khorne, so I'm very much satisfied right now (though my wallet isn't). There do need to be changes to several armies' rules, such as the Grey Knights. Also, there's the unnecessary price increases on the Start Collecting boxes.

Factions that have received a release of at least one model since 8th dropped:

Space Marines
Imperial Guard
Sisters of Battle (Not out yet, but GW reworked their release schedule to fit them in because the community wanted them so much so they count)
Custodes
AdMech
Khorne Daemons
Slaanesh Daemons
Nurgle Daemons
Chaos Space Marines
Death Guard
Thousand Sons (with an asterisk, models that aren't new but they couldn't use before)
Craftworld Eldar
Genestealer Cults
Orks
Necrons

So that's what... everything other than Tau, Drukhari, Harlequins, and Tzeentch Daemons? So yeah, they haven't put out a release for every faction in the game in the past two years but they've come pretty damn close.

I don't know what to say. At the start of the edition I had high hopes. As it went on I saw some real issues, smite, command points, etc. As time has gone on command points prove to be their big thing and I feel will lead to some utter awful balance. The armies themselves are alright if you do faction pure but soup is on the menu so it ends up being meh with that ? They are selling models so all good for them.

It's better than 6 or 7th but that isn't hard to do. I think as others have said, played either casual or middle of the road, even played with single codex armies the game is about as good and fun as it has been at its best. Top tier it's a strange and bleh experience for me at least. Though I do love some aspects of the new models and diversity of some builds. It's a real mixed bag for me, and my primary army is guard so I came out pretty well this edition all told so far. I guess I'll say the game is a win if they make plastic rough riders with varied units made from the box, then I'll forgive them all their evils. GW, just do it, make me love you.

PS, Why the hell didn't guard get cool quads and dirt bikes and gun buggies ?! Sad face...

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Factions that have received a release of at least one model since 8th dropped:

Space Marines
Imperial Guard
Sisters of Battle (Not out yet, but GW reworked their release schedule to fit them in because the community wanted them so much so they count)
Custodes
AdMech
Khorne Daemons
Slaanesh Daemons
Nurgle Daemons
Chaos Space Marines
Death Guard
Thousand Sons (with an asterisk, models that aren't new but they couldn't use before)
Craftworld Eldar
Genestealer Cults
Orks
Necrons

So that's what... everything other than Tau, Drukhari, Harlequins, and Tzeentch Daemons? So yeah, they haven't put out a release for every faction in the game in the past two years but they've come pretty damn close.

Context matters here.

Some releases have been much more substantial than others. Comparing the full reworking of an entire line to a singular new HQ model is totally misleading.

State how many new models each faction received so we can better compare.

The entire point of the argument was that GW has given token releases to factions that in prior years wouldn't get anything at all; you know as well as I do that in any two year span before the current era half of those factions wouldn't be on that list.

It's completely unreasonable to expect everyone to get as large of a release as CSM is getting right now, so frankly I'd rather take "here's a new unit we're releasing as part of a starter box" than getting nothing at all. Which, no matter how you might think otherwise, is the other option.

Or, crazy thought I know, they could split their resources more evenly so all factions get a decently sized release every year?! Instead of releasing 50 lieutenants with Primaris coming out the wazoo already.

I don't think it's unreasonable and I have this opinion and I don't think there are only 2 options as you claim.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Or, crazy thought I know, they could split their resources more evenly so all factions get a decently sized release every year?! Instead of releasing 50 lieutenants with Primaris coming out the wazoo already.

I don't think it's unreasonable and I have this opinion and I don't think there are only 2 options as you claim.

space marines are what sell, which explains all the space marines. thing is despite all the jokes about primaris Lts we've gotten about 9 or ten total thus far. assuming GW decided to not make them and instead spread the resources that's only ~ 10 or so sculpts. eneugh for a single new infantry kit, or yeah about a dozen new characters that proably won't sell as good.

The current release is unique as they are updating a range which is something they don't do very often. Then they have to split development time between AoS and 40k which probably takes a lot of resources. Don't know if people remember, but in 2018 they released several large new lines of AoS models which probably meant there was going to be less development time for 40k models.

There is also the question of what new stuff should they doing? What is missing in the current lines, and mind you I am not talking about updates to old models, but new units. Updating models tends to be a slow churn that rarely gets prioritized over new stuff that'll sell more, which is why we only get stuff like this CSM release and the old Drukhari release very rarely.

My guess is that the next big 40k release will be Emperor's Children and Sisters of Battle, with a third potential being an Ynnari range if they want to expand that. Of those three only the SoB represents an update, but it is also an update of an ancient army.

Also a point about the Primaris Lt. They are just using the same base model between them all and changing minor stuff. They are easy and quick one-offs compared to completely new models and ranges. It's why they can throw them out for special releases and not worry about return of investment as much because they are probably very cheap to design and make compared to most everything else.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Or, crazy thought I know, they could split their resources more evenly so all factions get a decently sized release every year?! Instead of releasing 50 lieutenants with Primaris coming out the wazoo already.

I don't think it's unreasonable and I have this opinion and I don't think there are only 2 options as you claim.

Do you understand that the design time required to make 5 different lieutenants is probably much less than it takes to make a single unit of another faction right?

Marines not only sell extremely well, but they are also made to be easy to design. They are very modular.

The game itself is miles better than 6e and 7e, but still has some glaring problems.

Terrain rules, for example. And the book bloat.
GW needs to fight their fear of the scary digital world!

GW needs to fight their fear of the scary digital world!

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I feel like they've had great progress with it, but now they just need to take the final plunge and embrace it completely.

 Vector Strike wrote:
GW needs to fight their fear of the scary digital world!

Probably not going to happen as long as you can pirate their gak in under five minutes. Unless you want a subscription app or something, which I'm kinda surprised hasn't happened.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The entire point of the argument was that GW has given token releases to factions that in prior years wouldn't get anything at all; you know as well as I do that in any two year span before the current era half of those factions wouldn't be on that list.

It's completely unreasonable to expect everyone to get as large of a release as CSM is getting right now, so frankly I'd rather take "here's a new unit we're releasing as part of a starter box" than getting nothing at all. Which, no matter how you might think otherwise, is the other option.

I'd take the random new unit. Or getting back our faction leader. Not looking for a large release for DE here, not even expecting crumbs, but still going to point out that we aren't getting them and that despite that I'm happier with 40k at the moment than I have been in a long time. I mean there is a prospect of a crumb in the next 3 years! That's... amazing as a DE player.

Spoletta wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Then why is it all of a sudden "popular"? Good is subjective. I would say 8th is actually good, it's just not great, which I think many wish it were.

Because Shiny Marketing to a young male demographic is more important than quality.

Yeah but they have been doing that for a lot of time, they surely didn't start with 8th. So, why did the big sales come only now?
All signs point to the game being simply better than in it was in previous editions, and my personal experience confirms it.

Ummm proper marketing actually did start with the new CEO. They have invested in PR a lot and it shows. Before that it was no communication, no marketing research(they literally said they don't need market research as their customers buy anything they put out anyway).

tneva82 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Then why is it all of a sudden "popular"? Good is subjective. I would say 8th is actually good, it's just not great, which I think many wish it were.

Because Shiny Marketing to a young male demographic is more important than quality.

Yeah but they have been doing that for a lot of time, they surely didn't start with 8th. So, why did the big sales come only now?
All signs point to the game being simply better than in it was in previous editions, and my personal experience confirms it.

Ummm proper marketing actually did start with the new CEO. They have invested in PR a lot and it shows. Before that it was no communication, no marketing research(they literally said they don't need market research as their customers buy anything they put out anyway).

Yeah... But GW being delusional for years doesn't mean they should get praise for pulling their heads out of their assess and doing what every other company realized years ago. I think people give "new" GW way too much credit for just doing what any serious business does in the 21st century.

Personally, to answer my own question, I think the game has the tools to be in a good place, but isn't mostly due to GW's design approaches which if you look beneath the marketing speak really hasn't changed much from the Kirby days. They claim it has, certainly, but if you read between the lines it's clear it hasn't changed as much as they claim .

There are still too many glaring flaws and even loopholes or questions that are apparent almost immediately to everyone, it seems, except the 40k design team. Too many inconsistent rules and wording because for some reason GW prefers to write rules like it was a D&D book and not an instruction manual. And a lot of talk from the team.that shows they are saying they understand while demonstrating that they have no idea why people are saying certain things are problems.

 Horst wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
8th is still really unfun and it's hamstrung by it's bare bones core rules that requires stacking layers of buff mechanics to give the illusion of depth. Past editions had core rules that actually generated interesting gameplay but a core rules only game of 8th (aka using index armies) is completely bland. Everyone talks about balance bring better (checkers is balanced but it ain't much of a game) but the game in it's current state is a shell of it's former self with the same "multiple rules source" bloat issue that people raged about with 7th.

But why would you play a "core rules only" game of 40k?

The launch of 8th was that (core rules and index armies) and I'm trying to point out that the foundation of the game is void of depth and requires GW to stack on gimmick mechanics like stratagems, chapter tactics, relics, etc to give any illusion of choice. For all the flaws of 7th, at it's core was a set of rules that made the battlefield matter and has lots of mechanics that gave gameplay options outside of move, shoot, stab. 8th seriously lacks in the gameplay department and ultimately boils down to what combo of buff can I use to table the opponent before I get tabled.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Horst wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
8th is still really unfun and it's hamstrung by it's bare bones core rules that requires stacking layers of buff mechanics to give the illusion of depth. Past editions had core rules that actually generated interesting gameplay but a core rules only game of 8th (aka using index armies) is completely bland. Everyone talks about balance bring better (checkers is balanced but it ain't much of a game) but the game in it's current state is a shell of it's former self with the same "multiple rules source" bloat issue that people raged about with 7th.

But why would you play a "core rules only" game of 40k?

The launch of 8th was that (core rules and index armies) and I'm trying to point out that the foundation of the game is void of depth and requires GW to stack on gimmick mechanics like stratagems, chapter tactics, relics, etc to give any illusion of choice. For all the flaws of 7th, at it's core was a set of rules that made the battlefield matter and has lots of mechanics that gave gameplay options outside of move, shoot, stab. 8th seriously lacks in the gameplay department and ultimately boils down to what combo of buff can I use to table the opponent before I get tabled.

Except Tabling isn't an autowin since CA2018 (If you use the official missions).

 Vankraken wrote:

 Horst wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
8th is still really unfun and it's hamstrung by it's bare bones core rules that requires stacking layers of buff mechanics to give the illusion of depth. Past editions had core rules that actually generated interesting gameplay but a core rules only game of 8th (aka using index armies) is completely bland. Everyone talks about balance bring better (checkers is balanced but it ain't much of a game) but the game in it's current state is a shell of it's former self with the same "multiple rules source" bloat issue that people raged about with 7th.

But why would you play a "core rules only" game of 40k?

The launch of 8th was that (core rules and index armies) and I'm trying to point out that the foundation of the game is void of depth and requires GW to stack on gimmick mechanics like stratagems, chapter tactics, relics, etc to give any illusion of choice. For all the flaws of 7th, at it's core was a set of rules that made the battlefield matter and has lots of mechanics that gave gameplay options outside of move, shoot, stab. 8th seriously lacks in the gameplay department and ultimately boils down to what combo of buff can I use to table the opponent before I get tabled.

40k has always had the illusion of choice. All the "choices" made are things that should be very minor in any serious wargame, while in 40k it's made out to be the major decision. Which is why I find it laughable when people try to say 40k is more complex than say Warmahordes, since the choices in those games *actually* matter and there are hundreds if not thousands of combinations that need to be accounted for, while in 40k it's basically here's a unit, here's 6 options that unit can take where 1 and maybe 2 are worthwhile and the rest are pretty much hot garbage that's never worth taking, and claiming that's meaningful choices.

40k is and always has been a very shallow game, yet people pretend it's not and have done so for years (The only reason I can think of being they don't want to look foolish for playing such a shallow game so invent reasons why it's not). Even if you look at "evolved" 40k type games like Warpath, Bolt Action and Beyond the Gates of Antares (especially the last two as they are essentially 3rd edition 40k with extras, basically 40k done correctly without GW's sales/marketing meddling. I mean Bolt Action is almost literally WW2 40k minus the bullgak of 40k) you'll find more meaingful choices than you see in 40k itself.

40k is FINE. It does it job fantastically as both a physical representation of battles from the fluff, great miniatures and simple but fun gameplay.

What it is NOT and never has been is competitive. GW never wanted that, make it obvious its not their intention but players get their power armoured knickers in a twist that every unit is 'viable' which to them means isn't optimal as all hell just to win.

8th ed is awesome for the game, pick up games have never been simpler and whilst rules bloat compared to start of 8th is creeping in it is easily manageable.

Don't like a rule? House rule it. Talk to your opponent. focus on having fun over winning!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Then why is it all of a sudden "popular"? Good is subjective. I would say 8th is actually good, it's just not great, which I think many wish it were.

Because Shiny Marketing to a young male demographic is more important than quality.

OFC I don't have mass numbers to back up my specific anecdote, but the people I see buying GW stuff locally do not fit the demographic you're describing. having those numbers would be interesting. I know a lot of former 40K players that have come back because of 8th, they certainly don't fit that demographic (me included...unfortunately)

 bullyboy wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Then why is it all of a sudden "popular"? Good is subjective. I would say 8th is actually good, it's just not great, which I think many wish it were.

Because Shiny Marketing to a young male demographic is more important than quality.

OFC I don't have mass numbers to back up my specific anecdote, but the people I see buying GW stuff locally do not fit the demographic you're describing. having those numbers would be interesting. I know a lot of former 40K players that have come back because of 8th, they certainly don't fit that demographic (me included...unfortunately)

I have seen the same, and I honestly sometimes wonder why, since it's clear after first glance that GW really didn't change much, at least not where it counts. People just somehow bought all of their PR and marketing and jumped right back on the bandwagon. Ah well, I'm being a hypocrite I guess as I'm all excited about the new Chaos release but I just wonder sometimes why so many people stick with such a bad game.

Wayniac wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Horst wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
8th is still really unfun and it's hamstrung by it's bare bones core rules that requires stacking layers of buff mechanics to give the illusion of depth. Past editions had core rules that actually generated interesting gameplay but a core rules only game of 8th (aka using index armies) is completely bland. Everyone talks about balance bring better (checkers is balanced but it ain't much of a game) but the game in it's current state is a shell of it's former self with the same "multiple rules source" bloat issue that people raged about with 7th.

But why would you play a "core rules only" game of 40k?

The launch of 8th was that (core rules and index armies) and I'm trying to point out that the foundation of the game is void of depth and requires GW to stack on gimmick mechanics like stratagems, chapter tactics, relics, etc to give any illusion of choice. For all the flaws of 7th, at it's core was a set of rules that made the battlefield matter and has lots of mechanics that gave gameplay options outside of move, shoot, stab. 8th seriously lacks in the gameplay department and ultimately boils down to what combo of buff can I use to table the opponent before I get tabled.

40k has always had the illusion of choice. All the "choices" made are things that should be very minor in any serious wargame, while in 40k it's made out to be the major decision. Which is why I find it laughable when people try to say 40k is more complex than say Warmahordes, since the choices in those games *actually* matter and there are hundreds if not thousands of combinations that need to be accounted for, while in 40k it's basically here's a unit, here's 6 options that unit can take where 1 and maybe 2 are worthwhile and the rest are pretty much hot garbage that's never worth taking, and claiming that's meaningful choices.

40k is and always has been a very shallow game, yet people pretend it's not and have done so for years (The only reason I can think of being they don't want to look foolish for playing such a shallow game so invent reasons why it's not). Even if you look at "evolved" 40k type games like Warpath, Bolt Action and Beyond the Gates of Antares (especially the last two as they are essentially 3rd edition 40k with extras, basically 40k done correctly without GW's sales/marketing meddling. I mean Bolt Action is almost literally WW2 40k minus the bullgak of 40k) you'll find more meaingful choices than you see in 40k itself.

Personally i find warmahordes to be less fun and while sure the units can be different (though I do not think any more different than 40k units from different armies) the overwhelming things are your casters. I might enjoy Warmachine/hordes if they toned down the casters to let units matter more. The last game i played the caster was like... ok now everything in your army can either move or shoot but not both. I personally am against anything in a wargame that invalidates another player''s turn, and thier caster ability literally made it so I could accomplish nothing... no thanks. I have made several attempts to enjoy the game, and had a fairly favorable win rate but its not nearly as fun to me. 40k is... but you don't see me going into the warmahordes forums to say 40k is superior. It is a different game, let people play with their toy soldiers in the environment they prefer without gaking on their game?

My main point is when people try to say 40k is this insanely complex game, because it's 100% false. I stopped playing Warmahordes because quite frankly the level of minutiae in that game was too much; it hurt my brain. But that doesn't magically mean 40k is a complex game. It's incredibly shallow. It's still fun, but I don't try to delude myself into thinking it has meaningful depth and choices.