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I was wondering how people plan on incorporating the new marines into their current lists?? I have an almost all Primaris crimson fist army which I use the Deathwatch codex for and am considering dropping a unit of 9 storm bolter storm Shield marines for some infiltrators and eliminators.

Deathwatch can't use them. (Yet.)

 JNAProductions wrote:
Deathwatch can't use them. (Yet.)

I know but they could be put in as a separate detachment of I could run my marines using the normal marines codex.

Ravenguard maybe. Despite being called "Vanguard" most of your units, except maybe the infiltrators would like to Sit at the back and shoot. So having -1 to hit from the CT is great.

They are not worth using.

Lots of discussion of these guys at the UKGT this weekend.

People are most interested in the infiltrators. Getting scoring units onto objectives right from the start of the game and preventing deep strike shenanigans is game-changing.

Eliminators are also quite cool. They can set up almost anywhere, so they make ok objective-holders, they are cheap, and their guns look decent. I like the fact that they can fire from out of sight, as it means things like IG characters and warlocks will be seriously endangered wherever they may hide.

Another cool thing about eliminators is that they are a very cheap heavy support unit. If you want something like a relic leviathan then you can take a unit of these guys to unlock it. They’ll do good work for you, as will the leviathan.

Suppressors are a bit tricky to work out. A lot of people are focusing on the fact that they don’t make sense as jump troops. I’d argue that this doesn’t really matter, because they don’t seem to really pa anything for their packs. A suppressor is cheaper than a devastator with a lascannon – though the devastator is kind of awful so maybe that’s not a particularly useful comparison! The option to deep strike if you’re against a heavy shooting army, the ability to fall back and shoot and the options you get for movement all mean that the jump pack is certainly a nice thing to have – albeit not exactly necessary.

I’ve got some and they are pretty good models once you see them up close.

I’m less sold on the characters. I think I’ll probably stick with my existing captain and lieutenant or librarian. The captain is particularly bad – a very expensive model who’s functionally unarmed. The lieutenant is decent but I think you want your reroll bubble on the board in the middle of your army, not dropped far away.

The librarian might be the best of the characters. I don’t yet see a way to get all that much out of him, I’m sorry to say. He might be better if you can take bigger units of eliminators.

I’m a bit less sold than I was on the Eliminators. For char killing, sure they’re priced great. And with enough synergy to kill them fast enough to matter (the old Vindicare problem) they’re good. For for any other use they’re too expensive. 3 str 4 shots isn’t enough to hurt units hiding out of Los. Even the whirlwind is better at that for about the same cost.
Edit: actually for char killing they aren’t priced “great”, 2 sniper scouts is still better due to double the chances of a mortal wound on 6, but the fact you can try to finish off a 1w char hiding out of sight is a good trade off.

A Spearhead with 3x 3 Salamander Eliminators and a Librarian HQ would go will with DW.
The Librarian can still cast powers on DW units as they are the same powers and affect ASTARES units.

The reason I think SALAMANDERs is the best trait is because the units will each have 3 shots. The chances on each unit getting 1 miss and 1 failed wound are pretty high, so you'd almost always benefit from the rerolls, potentially even turning a failed wound into a MW
And since they have special deployment and are so cheap, you really don't need a defense buff trait like RG.

Just set them up in ideal firing lines and stop stripping wound off Characters. They'll draw enough attention to themselves to distract from your other units

-

Other than raven guard, crimson fists are probably one of the best off with the latest releases. Some of the options you have:

1. Combo target priority, no matter the odds and bolter drill on aggressors
2. Target priority on hellblasters, preferably in a liberator strike force
3. Liberator strike force should be compatible with the new characters, so you could use the relic bolt pistol on the new librarian (smite, mind raid and up to 4 decent pistol shots a turn)
4. Infiltrators are rubbish - so rubbish in fact that they could be ignored in favour of targeting more threatening units in your force. With their limited regenerative abilities and smoke grenades you should be able to keep these guys alive until later in the game, where they might actually shine in mopping up damaged targets (shrouding can help gaurantee this)
5. Eliminators and suppressors are nice options in their respective battlefield roles if you need to fill out a detachment - they are costed quite reasonably compared to similar units

How I feel about the new units:
Captain in Phobos Armor: He's decent as his gun can actually snipe characters and does 2 damage flat. He's no slouch in CC either with 6 attacks (5 base + 1 for his knife), although he won't do well against a dedicated CC beatstick (like a lot of tooled-up Chaos Lords or Ork Warbosses).
Lieutenant in Phobos Armor: "Deep Strike" on this guy is a gimmick that isn't worth actually doing, as you want him on the board buffing your stuff. He's too expensive for what he does currently; you'd be better off with a regular Primaris Lieutenant instead.
Librarian in Phobos Armor: I actually like this guy's powers a lot. I don't think he should infiltrate most of the time as most armies can clear stuff that forward deploys fairly quickly. Being in range for an early Smite could be okay, I suppose. The main thing I like with this guy is the combos with Dark Angels and Space Wolves powers (potential -4 to hit on a Knight Castellan from Hallucination, Mind Wipe, Aversion, and Tempest's Wrath).
Infiltrators: 22 points per model is a joke; there is no way they are worth that much. I would only ever run minimum units and use them basically as more durable Scout squads, although the deep strike denial is kind of nice. Maybe we need more data on how useful that ability actually is.
Suppressors: I would never deep strike them as that gimps their shooting. Keeping them near the backfield to shoot their guns is probably a good plan. Space Wolves can probably get more mileage out of them with the Keen Senses stratagem, meaning they can move and still be effective.
Eliminators: Best unit of the lot. These are what Sniper Scouts want to be, able to actually do enough damage to threaten a character. They won't be taking a Vindicare Assassin's job, but I think a unit of these together with a Vindicare could really do some work, especially with Roboute Guilliman giving them rerolls.

As for how I would use them in my current lists, I don't have a list that needs them currently, although I did get the models. I play Dark Angels, and I'm still trying to figure out a good way to use these guys effectively. Grim Resolve is good for the Eliminators and the Suppressors if they don't move, meaning they don't need a support character as much. I just can't justify the added cost of replacing any of my Scouts with the Infiltrators, as I'd have to cut too much other stuff to make room, and I don't really need the Captain or LT when I've got Azrael and Talonmasters.

I have a plan for them in my minds eye, I am just busy finishing up my Daemon army first.

I play Space Wolves so a lot of this is really useful to me. My plan is a battalion with a primaris or phobos captain/lt (maybe the new rune priest).

Two squads of min infiltrators, 1 squad of max intercessors.

One or two suppressor squads.

Done.

Then a Vangaurd of varying options.

Right now my plan is to use Arjac and a Wolf Lord in Terminator armor with a TH/SS. I may change this to a Wolf Lord with jump pack for maneuverability based on the list.

Two squads of Wolf Guard, all armed with Frost Swords/Storm Shields.

One squad of Wulfen, all TH/SS.

This is where I vary it. Right now I have a Stormwolf added and I stuff all the Wolf Guard, Arjac and the Wolf Lord into the flyer. My other idea is to add Jump Packs to the Wolf Guard or even a wall of Wulfen Dreads to charge infront of everyone.

So the plan is to deploy the infils/intercessors in a sort of inverted triangle facing my deployment zone to control the middle of the board and make an expansive denial of deep strike bubble. I would probably keep the captain in phobos with my intercessors.

In my brain, this gives me board control from the get-go and forces my opponent into his own deployment zone (could be wrong lol).

The suppressors hide until I need them. The flyer moves up, my wulfen are flanking. (yes, i am hoping on a first turn... but we play with enough LOS blocking terrain I could hide my flyer if need be but not always haha).

Shoot some stuff... but then force my enemy to decide between the juicy flyer or all my board control/objective capping units.

From there the plan is simple. Whether or not the flyer is blown, all those Stormshields will be plenty survivable. We chew through the enemy bit by bit, with the suppressors only needing to take out a single model to block obnoxious overwatch. They can move and fire freely with our keen senses strat.

**EDIT - I would like to point out to everyone that the current points for everything will 99% change. The new Obliterators, in Vigilus Ablaze/CSM 2.0 are back down to their original cost. So the points were decided on before CA 2018 point values. I am also expecting more point drops for my Wolves in the form of our frost weapons, as CA 2018 didn't address Space Wolf points because of how close our release was to CA 2018 dropping.

I would like to see the units added to the Deathwatch as I run my marines with the Deathwatch codex (despite then being fully painted as crimson fists) but even if they were I feel like my only non Primaris unit would be dropped to accommodate some infiltrators (9 storm bolter as vets) but if simply be shoe horning them in as they are lovely models.
The way I would use infiltrators is to have them loiter at the back holding objectives. Maybe a squad of 5 or 6 with the medic just camping would be quite cool.

I think Deathwatch has enough toys. And I play them.

Mechanically, I would agree.

Lore wise they are both tactical operators operating tactically and the Vanguard combat acumen suits the DW's methods to a T. I'll be sad if they don't get them.

Yeah i dont do lore.

I don't think I agree with some of the conclusions posted above about the new Infiltrators not being worthwhile.

As long as I'm understanding the Omni-scrambler right, they seem to shut down a lot of the tactics that many competitive factions use.

Dark matter crystal on tzaangor bomb
Bloodletter bomb
Da Jump / Tellyporta
Tide of Traitors / Endless green tide
All kinds of GSC deployment/setup tricks

And many more.

Infiltrators single-handedly stop all of these shenanigans dead in their tracks, just by being there.

I play Imperial Soup with a Castellan and Guard artillery, basically a gunline which needs screens and defenses against in-your-face threats.

Previously, I was using guardsmen squads and Scout sentinels to intercept these types of threats, eat the charge and usually die horribly. With infiltrators, they don't even get to declare a charge. They just stand there.

So my own conclusion about Infiltrators (until I can playtest) is that they seem not only worthwhile but game-changing.

I don't know if i'd say game changing, especially at their price-point.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know if i'd say game changing, especially at their price-point.

Fair enough, they are a little expensive at 110pts for a minimum squad.

But against those examples I mentioned, for instance Orks, the infiltrators will literally make them change their tactics and make them do things that are less than ideal.

An Ork player WANTS to Jump 40 boyz next to your army and charge as many things as possible.

If he can't even declare a charge, he won't even Jump them to begin with and possibly not even Mob Up. He'll just footslog them with the rest of the army.

That meets my definition of game changing. It changes up the opponent's plans to something they would rather not do.

You're making a lot of assumptions about how long a unit with a slightly better Primaris statline will last on the board.

They can chuck smoke turn 1. Its somethimg.

Sterling191 wrote:
You're making a lot of assumptions about how long a unit with a slightly better Primaris statline will last on the board.

Not really, as there is no way to remove them prior to Turn 1.

Meaning, at bare minimum, they will disrupt all these different deployment shenanigans for at least the first turn guaranteed because it all happens during the movement phase.

Which is often all that is needed, just that bit of breathing room for a turn at the beginning to put the momentum of the game in your favor.

And then, if the opponent really wants to do their Jumps or Dark Matter etc maybe on 2nd turn or later, they will have to allocate firepower to removing the Infiltrators. And to that I happily say "Go ahead" because there is that much less coming at my mortar teams, basilisks, Helverins etc that are actually doing the killing

Again, this is all theoryhammer and I look forward to actually playtesting them to see if it all pans out how I think it can.

slobulous wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know if i'd say game changing, especially at their price-point.

Fair enough, they are a little expensive at 110pts for a minimum squad.

But against those examples I mentioned, for instance Orks, the infiltrators will literally make them change their tactics and make them do things that are less than ideal.

An Ork player WANTS to Jump 40 boyz next to your army and charge as many things as possible.

If he can't even declare a charge, he won't even Jump them to begin with and possibly not even Mob Up. He'll just footslog them with the rest of the army.

That meets my definition of game changing. It changes up the opponent's plans to something they would rather not do.

yep, it does make your opponent change their plans.

But then, you've spent 110 points on 5 bolt guns. That extra turn you've bought yourself won't help you much when you've halved your firepower.

footfoe wrote:

slobulous wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know if i'd say game changing, especially at their price-point.

Fair enough, they are a little expensive at 110pts for a minimum squad.

But against those examples I mentioned, for instance Orks, the infiltrators will literally make them change their tactics and make them do things that are less than ideal.

An Ork player WANTS to Jump 40 boyz next to your army and charge as many things as possible.

If he can't even declare a charge, he won't even Jump them to begin with and possibly not even Mob Up. He'll just footslog them with the rest of the army.

That meets my definition of game changing. It changes up the opponent's plans to something they would rather not do.

yep, it does make your opponent change their plans.

But then, you've spent 110 points on 5 bolt guns. That extra turn you've bought yourself won't help you much when you've halved your firepower.

You haven't halved your firepower. You've halved the firepower of your screening unit(s), which is a perfectly fair trade for pushing a melee or close ranged shooting army back for a full turn. That's one less turn you need to worry about melee units tying up Basilisks or Wyverns, one more turn that your second screen line can push out to maintain the screen, and one more turn your big guns get to target what you want them to shoot rather than your opponent dictating your target priority. In ITC, that's potentially a turn that the enemy couldn't make it onto an objective by deepstriking down onto it turn two. Personally, I can't wait til the full kit comes out so I can slap some DW pads on them.

footfoe wrote:
yep, it does make your opponent change their plans.

But then, you've spent 110 points on 5 bolt guns. That extra turn you've bought yourself won't help you much when you've halved your firepower.

I have no idea where you came up with halving the firepower. That’s certainly not the case. But also an irrelevant point anyway. They could have no guns at all and still accomplish their purpose.

GW really crippled the usefulness of a lot of the stuff in that box.

Especially the Libarian. All his buff spells only target Phobus armor. Charcter protection for scouts, or inflitators? Who cares? Re-rolls for scouts or inflitators? Who cares, they can't take guns that matter any way.

The captain is way too expensive, and can't take a sword or any options. His gun is pretty good but there is only one of them. Same with the lieutenant. Knife fighter, is double hits on a 6 but only with a knife. Strenght 4 ap 0.


It could be a really cool kit. The supressors are great. But with most of the stuff its like GW tied 1 arm behind their back. And its all from lack of options. Cool stats and abilities not guns to use it on. Or "this power can only target units that gain no benifit from this power."

Headlss wrote:
GW really crippled the usefulness of a lot of the stuff in that box.

Especially the Libarian. All his buff spells only target Phobus armor. Charcter protection for scouts, or inflitators? Who cares? Re-rolls for scouts or inflitators? Who cares, they can't take guns that matter any way.

The captain is way too expensive, and can't take a sword or any options. His gun is pretty good but there is only one of them. Same with the lieutenant. Knife fighter, is double hits on a 6 but only with a knife. Strenght 4 ap 0.


It could be a really cool kit. The supressors are great. But with most of the stuff its like GW tied 1 arm behind their back. And its all from lack of options. Cool stats and abilities not guns to use it on. Or "this power can only target units that gain no benifit from this power."

Look over in the pure primaris tactics thread. A fellow and I went over a good way to use Reivers with Carbines aided by a Phobos Librarian.

Otherwise your spot on.

I can see some trickiness with the librarian and the infiltrator squads. If you use Shroud, then they can't be shot off an objective, and that can mean a lot depending on the mission. (Doesn't help much if you get 2nd turn, granted).

Reivers dont have the Phobos keyword, right?
Atleast my SW dont have it.

New stuff is not super competetive, but they sure has some good uses. The 12" reserv blocking can be particulary usefull.
Supressors and Phobos Captain camping by that side objective have potential to do some real damage to vital parts of the enemy line, and will draw alot of fire away from the rest of your army before they eventually die.
I would hate to play against them.

 Fayric wrote:
Reivers dont have the Phobos keyword, right?
Atleast my SW dont have it.

New stuff is not super competetive, but they sure has some good uses. The 12" reserv blocking can be particulary usefull.
Supressors and Phobos Captain camping by that side objective have potential to do some real damage to vital parts of the enemy line, and will draw alot of fire away from the rest of your army before they eventually die.
I would hate to play against them.

There's a Designer Note section in the mini Vanguard Codex that comes with Shadowspear that gives the Phobos keyword to Reivers.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know if i'd say game changing, especially at their price-point.

Yup, this is the real problem. They cost significantly more than Intercessors and have a worse gun. Their ability is very situational in that it will severely impede a handful of armies but be absolutely worthless against many others. Deep strike denial may well severly mess with Jumping Orks and Daemon bombs but will be worthless against Knights + Loyal32.

If 40K had sideboards, they would be a perfect sideboard unit. As it stands, in competitive play, you will have to decide if you want to spend a lot of points and an offensive downgrade to get a unit that only has situational benefits over Intercessors.

If they get reduced to sub-20 points, I think they might be useful. Currently, I am not convinced. Do you need to get a full 10-man squad to get a Helix Adept?