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I'm not going to go into the whole "I miss my templates" thing, but I think 40K should have an "X" modifier based on unit count in the target unit for these weapons.

Let's say a flamer has the following damage characteristic: D6+U

If the target unit has:

Between 1 and 5 models, U = 0
Between 6 and 10 models, U = 1
Between 11 and 20 models, U = 2
Between 21 and 40 models, U = 4
Between 41 and 50 models, U = 6

My group has houseruled that flamers still need to roll to hit overwatch, (the reaction time roll) but it's always a 4+. This has been great for us, so this idea is limited to places where flamers get house-nerfs for these purpouses already.

Just something we're trying out in my group, and I thought maybe someone would like it.

To my mind it's an extra lookup step to the attack resolution process that doesn't make a single flamer any better most of the time but might get blown wildly out of proportion by GSC hand-flamer bombs.

I'm not sure I fully understand the end result you're seeking with model count based increase modifier. It doesn't seem like it would do nearly as much of an effect than you'd suggest it does as an anti-horde weapon.

I'd suggest a save value based modifier similar to grav weapons - maybe something like "if the target has a Save characteristic of 5+ or worse, add 1 to the Wound roll you make against it."

Now flamers deal wound against lightly armored hordes that rely on sheer numbers at 16.67% increased efficiency.

To keep things simple, you could give a reroll to the number of shots when the target unit is 6+ models, a flat 6 shots when 10+ models

My favourite is still that flamers do one hit for each model in the target unit, up to a maximum of "N"

so a "Flamer 5" will do 2 hits to a 2 man squad, 4 hits to a 4 man squad, 5 hits to a 5 man squad, and 5 hits to a 20 man squad.

This eliminates flamers as anti single model weapons, and eliminates the ludicrosity that you are as likely to get 6 hits on a single model as you are on a horde of 30.


Now thinking on it, it might be an idea to make them similar to rapid-fire weapons, where they double their hits if within half range (say 4").

so a normal flamer might be "flamer 3", so 3 hits at longer range and 6 hits at short range, provided that there are enough models to hit. IE if you shoot at a unit of 5, you can get 3 hits at 9" and 5 hits at 4". a flamer will never get more hits than the number of models in the target unit.

Flamers (and random shot auto hit weapons in general)

- Cannot target models with Flyer tag
- Cause half of their original shots, rounding down of auto hits on overwatch, regardless of LOS and range. (If the weapon is D6, it causes 3. If it's 3D3, it causes 4...)
- Roll additional dice against units with 20 or more models.

Currently, flamers are utterly useless. I equipped all my infantry squads with flamers as an anti-charge measure and now, when I get charged, it's rarely from 8" or less.

 Hawky wrote:
Flamers (and random shot auto hit weapons in general)

- Cannot target models with Flyer tag
- Cause half of their original shots, rounding down of auto hits on overwatch, regardless of LOS and range. (If the weapon is D6, it causes 3. If it's 3D3, it causes 4...)
- Roll additional dice against units with 20 or more models.

Currently, flamers are utterly useless. I equipped all my infantry squads with flamers as an anti-charge measure and now, when I get charged, it's rarely from 8" or less.

I have yet to understand the diversity of infantry special weapons available in 40k. Let's be real, it's Plasma or GTFO. I MIGHT take meltas on a bully unit, because tanks, but everything else is straight garbage. Why even bother. Even heavy flamers with salamander rules are pointless.

Salamanders are pointless in the first place so there ya go.

There is none. Plasma overshadows it all.

Some special weapons need some serious overhaul to make them viable again.

in 7th, flamers were mostly used as charge defense (at least with guard) and the template made them really shine against hordes. Single flamer was able to hit several (even 10+) enemies with convenient positioning. Now it's just D6, with 3 being the statistical average any given situation, massively reducing their effectiveness. With their range of 8" and most charged coming from DS, thus 9"+, they got useless.

Only use I see is amassed anti-horde assault units, where you unload the flamers in point blank range and hope for good rolls. And they are good at hitting airplanes too.

Snipers need some overhaul as well, but that's for another topic.

The issue isn't the D6 hits.

The issue is everyone gets an armor save on top of it.

 Hawky wrote:
There is none. Plasma overshadows it all.

This is the mostest truestest statement one can make about current 40k.

Hordes, knights, plasma.

Three keywords that is the rock-paper-scissor that is current 40k.

Honestly, bringing all three is the very definition of TAC army in 8th ed.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
...I have yet to understand the diversity of infantry special weapons available in 40k. Let's be real, it's Plasma or GTFO. I MIGHT take meltas on a bully unit, because tanks, but everything else is straight garbage. Why even bother. Even heavy flamers with salamander rules are pointless.

Flamers were important in earlier editions where the template rules could give you a reliable 6-8 hits per template in enclosed spaces. Meltaguns were important in earlier editions when a plasma gun couldn't reliably damage heavy vehicles (anything above AV12, really). Grav-guns were introduced as a panic measure to counter fast armoured MCs (Riptide/Wraithknight/Dreadknight) in 6e and were fairly dominant as a special weapons choice through 7e.

The changes to vehicle damage rules and AP system in 8e are the reason plasma is the one dominant gun against all targets. Most of the history of the game there were reasons to take the others.