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I'd also expect players who start recently to adhere to their colour scheme as much as possible. Someone who started with Crimson Fists in 2002 shouldn't be bound to rules published 15 years later, but someone who started with Salamanders in 2019 with a full grasp of the rules and backstory - they've made their bed so they must lie in it. Legacy paintjobs are more a case of an episode of Hotel Hell where Gordon Ramsay turns up to a 5* hotel but gets a sofa bed in the boiler room instead.

I disagree. There are no rules on paint jobs. As long as it is painfully clear what units are what, I don't care what people run their army as paintjob wise, just because people like a paintjob doesn't mean they should be locked into rules.

That's stupid. Rules should never be something I have to consider when deciding the overall scheme of my army.

Prior to 6th paint jobs designated how brave space marines were (white helm +1 ld... Iirc if you painted a cross on the space marine it got +1 attack too).

 Sir Heckington wrote:

I'd also expect players who start recently to adhere to their colour scheme as much as possible. Someone who started with Crimson Fists in 2002 shouldn't be bound to rules published 15 years later, but someone who started with Salamanders in 2019 with a full grasp of the rules and backstory - they've made their bed so they must lie in it. Legacy paintjobs are more a case of an episode of Hotel Hell where Gordon Ramsay turns up to a 5* hotel but gets a sofa bed in the boiler room instead.

I disagree. There are no rules on paint jobs. As long as it is painfully clear what units are what, I don't care what people run their army as paintjob wise, just because people like a paintjob doesn't mean they should be locked into rules.

That's stupid. Rules should never be something I have to consider when deciding the overall scheme of my army.

Especially since once you step past Marines most people don't even know many if any of the official subfaction schemes*.
Marines are a bit of an exception becauase many of their subfaction groups have unique models/decals/heroes so a proper Ultramarines army is visually different to a White Scars etc... However the paint scheme really doesn't matter one bit. I also dislike that if a person chooses an official or semi-official paint scheme they are "locked" into a faction; but if they chose something totally unique they are free to pick whatever they want it to be. To me that's a double standard that isn't worth having in the hobby as it benefits no one.
This is even more the case for non-marine factions where most of the subfaction differences are purely a handful of armywide bonuses applied to the force. You really shouldn't be locked into a specific Hive Fleet because you chose to paint your models a certain way when the only variation is that one hive fleet has a bonus to close combat and another fleet has one to ranged attacks. Sure - in theory - you could build both armies but no gamer would really expect another to buy an entire new army just to get a variation in combat bonuses for a different build.

Certainly most would expect a Blood Angels player with BA models to play BA. They might spend a bit of time proxy playing another marine force in casual games, that's perfectly fair. But if they wanted to play Ultra Marines you'd expect them to start picking up UM models (though most would not begrudge them sharing models with both armies where they are the same - eg sharing a rhino).



*And some are so similar its impossible to tell them apart. The official schemes for Daughters of Khaine Temples are so similar that they are basically just shade differences in colour. You'd never be able to tell them apart without being told.

I did a bit more thinking on this.

I understand players who are new and may only have starter boxes or second-hand models/loaners, or players that want to experiment with something and use a proxy before paying money for it. Just as long as that's clear up front, I'll make a note of it and roll with it.

Hell, I've seen a dude whose entire army was standing cardboard pictures that had an actual-size image of the unit, with cardboard discs of the same base size. That was impressive, to say the least.

I also do not give a single damn what you do and how you play with your stuff. I don't care if you make female marines. I don't care if your guardsmen are GSC Neophytes and Escher Gangers. I don't care if your guard army is a bunch of Warhammer Fantasy Skeletons with lasguns. I don't care if your personal lore for your army is a flagrant violation of any reasonably-established 40k lore. I don't care if your entire army is hand-sculpted from green Play-doh. I don't care if your Deathwatch are neon green. I don't care if you proxy Catachans and Cadians together as DKoK. I don't care if your Baneblade is made of foam. I don't care if you paint your models with ketchup and mustard. I don't care if your Codex is hand-written in a Lisa Frank notebook word for word.

Do whatever you wanna do. It's your property, you own it, and absolutely NO ONE has any authority to tell you what you can or cannot do, use, or have.

However- what people CAN do? People can refuse to play against you. People can refuse to allow you to use their tables in their establishment. People can have an opinion of your stuff that you may not like. Just as you are well within your rights to do whatever you want, for your own reasons- others are well within their rights to dislike it, refuse to play against it, and not allow it within a private establishment or event.

So, adjust accordingly and do what you feel like you can handle with your stuff. No matter how weird or silly it is, you'll find someone willing to play with you. It might be more challenging the further you deviate from the established norm for gaming requirements, but that's the price you pay, I suppose.

And that can be a metaphor for a lot of things in life, when you think about it.

I tend to think in percentages. I would want most of the opponent's army to be WYSIWYG but have no problem with 5% of a 2000 pts army be non WYSIWYG.

And if there are different detachments with different chapters/ regiments/ cabals etc. I want them to be painted differently, or the player to intend to paint them differently if unpainted/primed.

I voted for option 3: "I generally expect WYSIWYG, but make exceptions for new players, close friends, etc."

I think of WYSIWYG as a courtesy to my opponent and to be a service to me so that my army is very clear on what it is when you look at it.
I go so far as to keep certain colour coding for across the board: Plasma=green, Lascannon/Power weapon = Blue, most combat weapons=Black/yellow hazard stripe, most shooting weapons = red and every weapon depicted correctly except for the occasional grenade (like melta bombs).

I do tend to hold myself to a higher standard than others because this is what I have control over.
I am terribly happy to see paint on a model whatever the level, even better to see progress from week to week of others.

Really extreme conversions are fine as long as the converted weapon type or model is consistent.
I played a game where all the normal unit models were legs on a stand, anything different at least had the upper body built with some representative special/heavy weapon... it was "serviceable".

The printed playing pieces are a proxy I find my emotional response interesting: I am somewhat angered and want nothing to do with them.
I feel a need to say, "One minute, I will go print my Titan "model", I will be right back.".
I agree that GW games can be VERY expensive but find when the print-out proxies are used it is typically to field a formation that no normal player could afford, almost a "pay to win"... it is a mixed feeling.
I played many an old game with cardboard chits.
I play 40k to have something that looks prettier, a similar reason people play Napoleonics: the majesty or spectacle of it all.

<edit> I meant to say as well that every game can be an advertisement for others to take an interest in the game, as long as your models look good, it is a service to the 40k community.
<edit #2> As to army colour scheme, I lean very slightly to having the specific paint job for that faction (blood angel colour Salamanders oddly would hurt my head), another acceptable choice is your own custom chapter with it's own scheme where you can then pick of choose what you rules you want to use."

When someone tells you they don’t want to play WYSIWYG, you should be suspicious of them. Chances are they are not at the table for a fun rewarding competitive game, but to screw someone over, with chicanery or other subversive techniques. As the self help books say, when someone tells you who they are, believe them. When someone doesn’t play WYSIWYG, they are showing they are bad gamers, and morally suspect. Believe them.

Reemule wrote:
When someone tells you they don’t want to play WYSIWYG, you should be suspicious of them. Chances are they are not at the table for a fun rewarding competitive game, but to screw someone over, with chicanery or other subversive techniques. As the self help books say, when someone tells you who they are, believe them. When someone doesn’t play WYSIWYG, they are showing they are bad gamers, and morally suspect. Believe them.

A bit brutal but good advice all the same.
I would say from my own experience this is usually correct.
It falls under the category of "the least effort for the most payback" end of things.
If they are not into the game for the look or even the rules, they must be in for the social experience of "cave-face".

Yes, 'at a glance' WYSIWYG. So if that is a squad of guys with plasma guns in terminator armour, they should have plasma guns and be in terminator armour. 'Options' that you wouldn't notice at a glance are fine. The models are play aids so shouldn't detract from the flow or what is happening on the table...

I usually go for WYSIWYG with a little of artistic freedom. An Ork holding dual Sluggas in a full mob of Shoota Boyz for instance.

I'm not so strict with WYSIWYG. Some model kits (e.g. SM devastators, C:SM havocs, etc.) don't come with a full compliment of the weapons options (i.e. 4x lascannons, 4x reaper chaincannon, etc.). I think it's a bit much to ask that someone purchase 2 to 4 boxes of a kit to make one squad that's WYIWYG.

Proxies however are a hard 'no' for me.

I've softened pretty considerably when it comes to WYSIWYG. I used to be pretty strict about it it and I understand its value but in most games it just.... doesn't really matter all that much if both players are playing together and neither is playing a game of insane proxies.

The problem is there's no good way to write a rule for the grey area. It's really easy to say WYSIWYG, but how do you write something that both closes off abuse AND empowers players to feel confident in their conversions and proxies. TO's discretion doesn't do the latter; it doesn't empower players to put hobby time into something that a TO can arbitrarily use to send them home for.

Personally, to me it comes down to consistency. Just don't give me two models with the same general appearance and tell me they're equipped with different things and I'll be fine. You can give me a hodgepodge of models with different weapons and tell me they all have the same thing and we're good. Just don't make me have to track the special one. Make it look special.

What about Counts As forces?

Say I love the Kroot models and lore, but the Tyranid rules fit how I play them. Any issues with this as long as there's consistent mocking to show weapon differences?

 Blndmage wrote:
What about Counts As forces?

Say I love the Kroot models and lore, but the Tyranid rules fit how I play them. Any issues with this as long as there's consistent mocking to show weapon differences?

I guess that's fine, but I'd be questioning why, as maybe Orks would be a better idea.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
What about Counts As forces?

Say I love the Kroot models and lore, but the Tyranid rules fit how I play them. Any issues with this as long as there's consistent mocking to show weapon differences?

I guess that's fine, but I'd be questioning why, as maybe Orks would be a better idea.

I want to use my 9 kitbashed Knarlocs from 4th that I spent ages on and with Nids, they can be all manner of big beasts.

Somewhere between option two and three. I'm a pretty big fan of scratch-built vehicles for Orks, for example. Mostly the important thing is that they are, within reason, recognizable for what they are intended to be in the rules and that you can distinguish between two similar units that are equipped differently or have different rules. As long as you got that, the sky's the limit.

 oni wrote:
I'm not so strict with WYSIWYG. Some model kits (e.g. SM devastators, C:SM havocs, etc.) don't come with a full compliment of the weapons options (i.e. 4x lascannons, 4x reaper chaincannon, etc.). I think it's a bit much to ask that someone purchase 2 to 4 boxes of a kit to make one squad that's WYIWYG.

Proxies however are a hard 'no' for me.

Out of curiosity, why the hard 'no' to proxies? I presume this includes models produced by other manufacturers?

Banville wrote:
Out of curiosity, why the hard 'no' to proxies? I presume this includes models produced by other manufacturers?

If he's anything like me, and I'll bet he probably is- he was rather lenient at one point.

"Hey, man- I packed up the guys for my list and when I got here I realized that instead of the guys with meltas, I brought the guys with the flamers. Can we just let the flamer dudes be meltas so I don't have to sit here and completely redo my list around them and be short like 20 points?" - this was fine

"So, check this out- I made a squad of Necron Lych Guard out of Skeletons with some cables and other bits- it's odd but I think it's cool. That okay?" -not my preference but ok

"Okay, I don't have actual Predator models so these Razorbacks are going to proxy, I'll lay this token on the ones that are supposed to be Predators so you can tell." -kind of inconvenient but so be it

"OK, I don't have Khorne Berserkers, so I'm gonna use these random Khorne guys from Age of Sigmar I never painted and finished building- they've all got chainaxes and chainswords, except this one guy that looks just like all the others and he's gonna have a power axe..." -please no

"This rubber monkey toy is my Imperial Knight, these Dwarves and 'Ardboys are tempestus Scions, this mob of zombies are guardsmen, and I will be using one of your shoes as a Leman Russ." -GTFO

How are the Berserker Marines in that example any bad? If they're about the right size and they're all equipped the same outside the one model that's gonna die last anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How are the Berserker Marines in that example any bad? If they're about the right size and they're all equipped the same outside the one model that's gonna die last anyway.

It's "bad" because I don't want to play against a bunch of grey armless torsos with Khornate cafeteria trays coming out of their heads.

In a larger game, I'd prefer to actually see what things are supposed to have so I can respond and play accordingly.

It's my preference, my time, and whether or not you approve or think it's okay has absolutely zero influence on what I choose to do with my time at the table. If you're fine with it, play the guy yourself.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How are the Berserker Marines in that example any bad? If they're about the right size and they're all equipped the same outside the one model that's gonna die last anyway.

It's "bad" because I don't want to play against a bunch of grey armless torsos with Khornate cafeteria trays coming out of their heads.

In a larger game, I'd prefer to actually see what things are supposed to have so I can respond and play accordingly.

It's my preference, my time, and whether or not you approve or think it's okay has absolutely zero influence on what I choose to do with my time at the table. If you're fine with it, play the guy yourself.

You can clearly tell what they are based on your post, as nothing else is the grey armless Khorne dudes. The kid is merely excited and wants to use them in a list. I hardly see how that is a bad thing at all.

That's very gatekeeper-y of you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can clearly tell what they are based on your post, as nothing else is the grey armless Khorne dudes. The kid is merely excited and wants to use them in a list. I hardly see how that is a bad thing at all.

"Kid" was 10 years older than me, but OK. No shortage of kids shaped like old men in the hobby, though.

Sorry, I don't want to play against models I can't identify. And that's fine, someone else will play with him or he'll eventually get around to making his models adequately represent the units- I'm not asking they be 'the same as in the book', but grey torsos are not gonna fly in a game against me because I've played against too many people who field those units with invisible fleshmetal guns that change at least once during the game. And trust me- I've even jotted it down to see if it changes, and it does.

If you think I'm the sort to punish a new player who's just testing something out, you're sorely mistaken or you've missed what I said before.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's very gatekeeper-y of you.

If there is one thing that every single individual in this hobby and beyond, across the face of this entire planet- and every life form beyond us with any degree of sentience is entitled to do- it's gatekeep what they do with their spare time and who they do it with.

You nor anyone else are entitled to my recreation. If that's gatekeeping, note the big iron lock and thick bars on this magnificent gate and keep moving.

onlyroad wrote:
So, I'm finally starting to get my models back to presentable standards and play some pickup games at my local store. I've never really been too concerned with WYSIWYG, though I've always disclosed this to my opponents, but I don't really know how much it's expected and encouraged.

So, Dakka, what's your policy on WYSIWYG from your opponents?

Speaking for myself, I selected other. Mainly because its situation to the player I am dealing with (within reason and a caveat). If a person tells me that the trooper running around with a heavy weapon is being substituted with another heavy weapon, I cut them some slack. Its a reasonable person standard. I can deal with someone subbing out a heavy weapon with another heavy weapon as long as the model is modeled with a heavy weapon. The same with a specialist weapon.. again with reason.

If they come to the table and setup a bunch of bases with legs (this did happen), and begin to tell me what set of legs represent what, I hit the breaks and politely decline a game. Why would I do that? Simply put, that's not WYSIWYG but being lazy in my opinion.

For me it’s consistency and clarity. If you have that I don’t mind playing you. The one thing I won’t do is play some who is using marines to represent Orks or something like that. I tried that once and it was a cluster. That all being said, I hold myself to a much higher WYSIWYG standard.

Crazy Jay wrote:
For me it’s consistency and clarity. If you have that I don’t mind playing you. The one thing I won’t do is play some who is using marines to represent Orks or something like that. I tried that once and it was a cluster. That all being said, I hold myself to a much higher WYSIWYG standard.

I'm extremely picky about my own WYSIWYG. If I don't have that weapon on that model, I just... can't play like it is. Feels weird. I have flat-out gone and hastily made a new one out of bits or did a quick conversion, or magnetize the actual weapon to the base of a guy just to show it.

Also, I can't put down grey models. I at least prime them with something. And I can't shake off the feeling when I am using a model and I see I missed some mold lines.

I have three units of vanguard veterans. Actually the models have been lovingly kitbashed, but the base models are assault marines. Bodies, legs, jetpacks. Everyone has the weapons and equipment they should have, as power swords, power axes, storm shields, plasma pistols and thunder hammers. I lavishingly showered the minis with kitbashed bling as to make them stand out. All 21 of them in three squads of seven. Sergeants are even kitbashed with forge world heads and have sanguinary guard jetpacks. Some of the storm shields are actually COMBAT shields.

I had a guy refusing to play me because those weren't vanguard veterans. Those were assault marines.

SO WYSIWTG has limits.

How are any of you strict wysiwyg players modeling your relics? Do you have multiple versions of your warlords or whatever to show different relics them?

How is it wysiwyg if relics as wargear are not represented?

As long as its reasonable.
In an era of affordable and easily accessible neodymium magnets WYSIWYG is not that un-attainable. No excuse for a lot og kits that offer all the options in the kit.

As someone who has recently magnetized all the veriations on a unit of wraithguard i can understand it might not be viable on some little models..

Old kits and oop stuff likewise can be reasonably expected to not be wysiwyg because rles change etc. long as its made clear before hand and its not a case of 3 gray plastic power armoured dudes being identical but all having different load outs.

 Blndmage wrote:
What about Counts As forces?

Say I love the Kroot models and lore, but the Tyranid rules fit how I play them. Any issues with this as long as there's consistent mocking to show weapon differences?

I'd have no issue with that, as long as you tell me which "kroot" have which stats. And you'd probably have to tell me multiple times since I'm not good at remembering this stuff

The key is your motivation. "I like kroot models and want to run them with tyranid rules" is fine. "I want to run tyranids, but don't want to buy new models, I'll take these kroot I have for my tau army instead" is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How are the Berserker Marines in that example any bad? If they're about the right size and they're all equipped the same outside the one model that's gonna die last anyway.

It's "bad" because I don't want to play against a bunch of grey armless torsos with Khornate cafeteria trays coming out of their heads.

In a larger game, I'd prefer to actually see what things are supposed to have so I can respond and play accordingly.

It's my preference, my time, and whether or not you approve or think it's okay has absolutely zero influence on what I choose to do with my time at the table. If you're fine with it, play the guy yourself.

You can clearly tell what they are based on your post, as nothing else is the grey armless Khorne dudes. The kid is merely excited and wants to use them in a list. I hardly see how that is a bad thing at all.

That's very gatekeeper-y of you.

I disagree.

Why aren't the arms glued on? If the man-kid can't be arsed to glue his models before playing, why should he bother to play him?

There are some occasions where there is a piece of a model missing because it got lost in the case or left at home. Outside of that, incomplete models are completely unacceptable. If you haven't finished assembling your model because you still want to paint/magnetize it... don't play it. We'll just play a smaller game in the meantime.

 Lance845 wrote:
How are any of you strict wysiwyg players modeling your relics? Do you have multiple versions of your warlords or whatever to show different relics them?

How is it wysiwyg if relics as wargear are not represented?

I knew many people in fantasy that modeled the magical items in their heroes, even going as far as having different versions of the same mages, some with dispell scrolls and others without them. But most people don't go as far, like with grenades or other small bits.