Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I can't believe that GW actually planned on making the minigun/rotatory cannon/Gatling or whatever it is called a competitively good weapon and then said, "You know what? If we only include one of these, players will buy 4 boxes to have make full squad. Muh ha ha!"

How do you upsell to SM/CSM players who have been collecting for 25+ years? Throwing out a new Lascannon sculpt isn't going to move the needle. Also, to be fair, never underestimate the banal evil that is marketing and sales.

Wayniac wrote:
For me the 3D printing is like $14 for 4, the Forgeworld ones (now out of stock kek) were $21 USD for 5 not counting S&H.

Haven't checked Kromlech or the other ones.

Kromlech was 7€ per 3 without shipping & handling when I checked.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I can't believe that GW actually planned on making the minigun/rotatory cannon/Gatling or whatever it is called a competitively good weapon and then said, "You know what? If we only include one of these, players will buy 4 boxes to have make full squad. Muh ha ha!"

I have to be Harlon's Razor here. Because I simply can't believe with everyone involved in making this kit, someone that saw this suspected plan didn't say, "Hey guys, making custom miniguns out of this kit takes less effort that even building the whole rest of the kit. I just don't see players bothering buying 4 whole boxes when they could buy one and make custom guns instead. I think we could convince players to buy two boxes if we included two miniguns but very few are going to bother with four. This is a hobby of assembling plastic miniatures, our customers do this kind of thing all the time."

So I believe the kit was probably just made that way without knowledge that players are going to want more miniguns. Still, kinda boneheaded move since I just don't see heavy bolters being that critical since the regular CSM will likely have them too. New or old CSM players just won't need that many heavy bolters probably.

The models were made and cut well before the rules. They made sure to have 2 of each common weapon, which will get used more anyway.

At 10pts each they're still pretty efficient.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I can't believe that GW actually planned on making the minigun/rotatory cannon/Gatling or whatever it is called a competitively good weapon and then said, "You know what? If we only include one of these, players will buy 4 boxes to have make full squad. Muh ha ha!"

I have to be Harlon's Razor here. Because I simply can't believe with everyone involved in making this kit, someone that saw this suspected plan didn't say, "Hey guys, making custom miniguns out of this kit takes less effort that even building the whole rest of the kit. I just don't see players bothering buying 4 whole boxes when they could buy one and make custom guns instead. I think we could convince players to buy two boxes if we included two miniguns but very few are going to bother with four. This is a hobby of assembling plastic miniatures, our customers do this kind of thing all the time."

So I believe the kit was probably just made that way without knowledge that players are going to want more miniguns. Still, kinda boneheaded move since I just don't see heavy bolters being that critical since the regular CSM will likely have them too. New or old CSM players just won't need that many heavy bolters probably.

The models were made and cut well before the rules. They made sure to have 2 of each common weapon, which will get used more anyway.

I suspect this is the most accurate answer. I would believe GW would think players would want to model heavy bolters more that the new gun. I just don't completely think that is true even if the new gun wasn't all that good. I have wanted Havocs for years to add missile launchers and lascannons or anything that I don't have the ability to get in a standard CSM box. Maybe because I see a CSM player owning at least 30 Chaos Space Marines so they would already have access to 3 boxes worth of heavy bolters if they really wanted them. It is probably biasing me that at not point I considered modeling a Havoc with a Heavy Bolter as I got plenty from other sources.

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that 4x havoc with Minigun us DEFINITELY not going to be fotm.

Remember when GK purgation squads rocked the meta?

Oh they didnt?

Was that maybe because 33ppm power armor bodies with no screening bodies are maybe a little inefficient?

A bit comforting to know that most people in here are saying, "Yeah, I'll just make my own rotorcannon". Because I honestly want to believe plenty of people will do just that.

But then again, I also expect to go to work next weekend and see guys with a stack of 4 Havoc kits, heading to the game area, and trying to sell everything but 5 Havocs and those rotorcannons to players.

Oh, and just an FYI- you could probably find anyone with a Repulsor to come off with an Onslaught gatling gun. It's not like most people put one on there, with the Heavy Onslaught and everything else that came with that giant waste of points.

 inirlan wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
For me the 3D printing is like $14 for 4, the Forgeworld ones (now out of stock kek) were $21 USD for 5 not counting S&H.

Haven't checked Kromlech or the other ones.

Kromlech was 7€ per 3 without shipping & handling when I checked.

They take a few weeks to a month for ship to US though. I've checked a bunch of online retailers, nobody has them in stock except Kromlech themselves.

 John Prins wrote:
So the latest on the GW Community Site https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/24/24th-mar-coming-soon-new-havocs-and-terminators/

You get in the box: 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolter, 2 Lascannons, and....ONE Reaper Chaincannon.

I'd like to say this is some next level GW bullgak, but I'm a Tau player and they did this with Cyclic Ion Blasters a while ago. What I wonder, though, is will this affect how CSM players build their army? Will you buy MOAR BOXES to make a Chaincannon Gang, buy bits (or 3rd party parts), or build Lascannon Havocs and spread your few Chaincannons among CSM squads?

Not sure what the issue is. GW has done this before, and will do so again. I have Chaos Marines, I may buy them... then again I may not. Until I see whats in the revised codex to see what options the standard CSM squad has will likely drive whether I buy the kit or not.

Something else I'll mention is that, from the pose of the bodies in the Havoc kit, it looks rather like you have 2 guys posed for shoulder-fired weapons (lascannon / missile launcher) and 2 for hand-held weapons (HB / autocannon / minigun). Not sure how easy it will be to re-model either to take the opposite weapon type. That's a pain.

Crispy78 wrote:
Something else I'll mention is that, from the pose of the bodies in the Havoc kit, it looks rather like you have 2 guys posed for shoulder-fired weapons (lascannon / missile launcher) and 2 for hand-held weapons (HB / autocannon / minigun). Not sure how easy it will be to re-model either to take the opposite weapon type. That's a pain.

Knowing GW I wouldn't put it past them to have 2 static poses with shoulder-fired and two with hand-held so you have to mix weapons. That seems to be the sort of gak they keep pushing. Hopefully they have enough arms that you aren't forced to build two with shoulder poses and two with firing poses but can do all 4 with either but it's not likely looking at the picture and the sprue.

Lucky for me I plan to get 2 boxes anyways so I can do 4 with each pose.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I can't believe that GW actually planned on making the minigun/rotatory cannon/Gatling or whatever it is called a competitively good weapon and then said, "You know what? If we only include one of these, players will buy 4 boxes to have make full squad. Muh ha ha!"

I have to be Harlon's Razor here. Because I simply can't believe with everyone involved in making this kit, someone that saw this suspected plan didn't say, "Hey guys, making custom miniguns out of this kit takes less effort that even building the whole rest of the kit. I just don't see players bothering buying 4 whole boxes when they could buy one and make custom guns instead. I think we could convince players to buy two boxes if we included two miniguns but very few are going to bother with four. This is a hobby of assembling plastic miniatures, our customers do this kind of thing all the time."

So I believe the kit was probably just made that way without knowledge that players are going to want more miniguns. Still, kinda boneheaded move since I just don't see heavy bolters being that critical since the regular CSM will likely have them too. New or old CSM players just won't need that many heavy bolters probably.

Then again 3rd parties will be locking you from GW tournaments so they have market for GW only parts.

This is time honoured strategy of GW that hasn't changed at it's core anywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that 4x havoc with Minigun us DEFINITELY not going to be fotm.

Remember when GK purgation squads rocked the meta?

Oh they didnt?

Was that maybe because 33ppm power armor bodies with no screening bodies are maybe a little inefficient?

Then again that unit easily kills up more than it's points worth without even rerolls. Doesn't sound that inefficient.

I suppose if you go to GW tournaments then you're screwed, but I think almost every third-party event doesn't care as long as the model is 90% GW which if you had a Havoc body with a 3rd party minigun it would fall under that category.

You won't be able to go to WHW or the Citadel, but anywhere else is likely fine. Even most GW stores I've seen are 90% rule, not 100%.

We can easily convert some of these - but I feel like this is similar to GK/other factions who need 1x bit thats 1 per box but multiple of.

Similar to ordering old Assault Cannons for terminators so we can have 2 per squad in 4th

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

But then again, I also expect to go to work next weekend and see guys with a stack of 4 Havoc kits, heading to the game area, and trying to sell everything but 5 Havocs and those rotorcannons to players.

I welcome anyone this insane, because then I can get some havoks on the cheap.

Wayniac wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Something else I'll mention is that, from the pose of the bodies in the Havoc kit, it looks rather like you have 2 guys posed for shoulder-fired weapons (lascannon / missile launcher) and 2 for hand-held weapons (HB / autocannon / minigun). Not sure how easy it will be to re-model either to take the opposite weapon type. That's a pain.

Knowing GW I wouldn't put it past them to have 2 static poses with shoulder-fired and two with hand-held so you have to mix weapons. That seems to be the sort of gak they keep pushing. Hopefully they have enough arms that you aren't forced to build two with shoulder poses and two with firing poses but can do all 4 with either but it's not likely looking at the picture and the sprue.

Lucky for me I plan to get 2 boxes anyways so I can do 4 with each pose.

I guess we're lucky they didn't make the rules to match. Like 0-2 can take lascannon, missile launcher. 0-1 can take heavy bolter, autocannon. 0-1 can take heavy bolter, autocannon, chaincannon.

I thought for GW tournaments your model had to be at least 51% GW to be legal? What happened to that rule?

Either way, I don't play GW stores or events. The TO I usually deal with is perfectly fine with 3rd party stuff as long as it looks like the original.

 inirlan wrote:


Still, how hard would it be for GW to whip up some resin molds to sell some spare special and heavy weapons on their website? Plastic would probably be too expensive unless they design those from the ground up as a separate sprue.

Apparently it's impossible for them to do so, otherwise they'd be selling Tau Cyclic Ion Blasters for years now. It seems to be some internal corporate rivalry BS where FW selling bits might cut into GW's box sales. FW sells only FW original product, those rotor cannons are HH product (and out of stock, and I bet they stay out of stock for a few months).

I think GW actually believes people take a variety of weapons in their Havoc squads as opposed to dedicated with the same weapons.

Its so easy to get your hands on stuff to make weapons these days that most people shouldn't be restricted by money alone.

Styrene tubing and plasticard are cheap on eBay (don’t buy Plastruct). It’s take me but minutes to make each barrel from that.

 John Prins wrote:

 inirlan wrote:


Still, how hard would it be for GW to whip up some resin molds to sell some spare special and heavy weapons on their website? Plastic would probably be too expensive unless they design those from the ground up as a separate sprue.

Apparently it's impossible for them to do so, otherwise they'd be selling Tau Cyclic Ion Blasters for years now. It seems to be some internal corporate rivalry BS where FW selling bits might cut into GW's box sales. FW sells only FW original product, those rotor cannons are HH product (and out of stock, and I bet they stay out of stock for a few months).

Again and they wonder why 3rd parties are doing well, even in a monopose age.


Also plasticard as JohnnyHell said.

Ah, geederps, geederping it up as usual.

I honestly just don't understand how they don't know this is a major annoyance for us. It's not like they've been doing this for, oh, forty years.

Derpy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

But then again, I also expect to go to work next weekend and see guys with a stack of 4 Havoc kits, heading to the game area, and trying to sell everything but 5 Havocs and those rotorcannons to players.

I welcome anyone this insane, because then I can get some havoks on the cheap.

You and me both, because that rotorcannon is cool- but for me, I'd only need one for a Kill Team- if they update CSM Kill-Teams to include the damned thing. So I fully expect to walk out of the shop next weekend with enough Havoc bodies to create every CSM in my Kill-Team, with some Heavy Bolters thrown in for giggles.

Working at this little shop, I get quite the spectacle of watching some peoples' spending habits and impulse control. Nothing like hearing some dude whinge about the absurdity of GW's prices as he spends over $300.00, and then abruptly stops talking for all of two seconds when his phone pings with an overdraft notice from his bank.

zerosignal wrote:
Ah, geederps, geederping it up as usual.

I honestly just don't understand how they don't know this is a major annoyance for us. It's not like they've been doing this for, oh, forty years.

Derpy.

If I have said it once, I've said it a thousand times in my life- GW's pricing and the way they pack their kits to make you buy multiples just to get what you need is pretty scummy, but the only reason they have been able to do it so long is because idiots will still go and pay for it. Why should they stop doing something when the profits clearly indicate that it was a great idea?

I mean, if your girlfriend complains that all you ever wanna do is come over and "Netflix and Chill", but every time you ask for that she eagerly agrees and you get exactly what you want without the slightest protest... that complaint is just noise you tune out. You'll keep doing exactly that until she adds "crossing her legs" to the complaints- and then you'll start to listen and maybe do something she wants.