Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Bharring wrote:
"a S Spear costs less then a paladin has more harder hiting attacks"
Your Termies have less than 2 attacks? And they're below S6?

You really comparing a jetbike with a terminator?

The other guy did it first.. thing is non eldar players tend to whine a little.. to much at eldar players. It gets to the point I enjoy broken things because it’s like.. I’ll give you a reason to whine if you’re gonna. Ya know

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The other guy did it first.. thing is non eldar players tend to whine a little.. to much at eldar players. It gets to the point I enjoy broken things because it’s like.. I’ll give you a reason to whine if you’re gonna. Ya know

That's a pretty horrendous attitude. You know people on all sides whine right? This isn't a partisan issue.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The other guy did it first.. thing is non eldar players tend to whine a little.. to much at eldar players. It gets to the point I enjoy broken things because it’s like.. I’ll give you a reason to whine if you’re gonna. Ya know

The fact that you even split the playerbaase into "Eldar players" and "non eldar players" tells me way too much about your personal disposition.

Oh and I really can't remember the last time an Eldar player whined after their unit died because "Eldar are supposed to win against X, they are ancient". Definitely never happened. Removed, mind your manners please - BrookM

EDIT: Oh, you're the guy who thinks Yvraine should be sub 100 pts. I get it now. Nvm, do your thing.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The other guy did it first.. thing is non eldar players tend to whine a little.. to much at eldar players. It gets to the point I enjoy broken things because it’s like.. I’ll give you a reason to whine if you’re gonna. Ya know

The fact that you even split the playerbaase into "Eldar players" and "non eldar players" tells me way too much about your personal disposition.

Oh and I really can't remember the last time an Eldar player whined after their unit died because "Eldar are supposed to win against X, they are ancient". Definitely never happened. Removed, mind your manners please - BrookM

EDIT: Oh, you're the guy who thinks Yvraine should be sub 100 pts. I get it now. Nvm, do your thing.

Anyway back on topic, I hope there are buffs to the units. They could use it.

Karol wrote:

Same with reapers a unit that can deep strike and then vanish behind a wall to be unshotable,

Reapers actually cannot do that.

No unit arriving as reinforcements, whether it's from tactical reserves or via other means such as DMC, Gate of Infinity, Da Jump, summoning, etc.. can subsequently be moved. Not by warptime, not by quicken, not by soulburst, not by move! move! move!, not by fire & fade, not by the nid overrun stratagem, not by hive commander, not by drive-by-demolitons, not by anything really (To my knowledge, GSC's A Perfect Ambush is the only stratagem in existence, that is an explicit exception to this).

Somebody just misplayed there.

At the very least this could be a nice update to have all the current Ynnari rules in one place. Not sure how long it will be current, but hey it's a start.

 Galef wrote:
Regardless of balance (nerfed or buffed), I really hope the rules are cleaned up considerably.

The best way I can think of would be to remove that whole YNNARI detachment Keyword swapping nonsense.

The 3 Characters should be the only YNNARI units period. And, like Assassins, you add them to an AELDARI army in one of 3 ways:
-1 in an Aux detachment
-All 3 in a Supreme detachment, even though they are 2 HQs and 1 LoW
-Spend 1 CP and add one of them

After that, make SfD an aura ability and/or Stratagem that the Characters give out to AELDARI unit(s). This ability should give a bonus (+1 attack or +1 to wound rolls, etc) and NOT be a duplicate action.

-

I'm of the opposite opinion - if Ynnari are going to exist, then please don't just have them be based around 3 sodding special characters.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Regardless of balance (nerfed or buffed), I really hope the rules are cleaned up considerably.

The best way I can think of would be to remove that whole YNNARI detachment Keyword swapping nonsense.

The 3 Characters should be the only YNNARI units period. And, like Assassins, you add them to an AELDARI army in one of 3 ways:
-1 in an Aux detachment
-All 3 in a Supreme detachment, even though they are 2 HQs and 1 LoW
-Spend 1 CP and add one of them

After that, make SfD an aura ability and/or Stratagem that the Characters give out to AELDARI unit(s). This ability should give a bonus (+1 attack or +1 to wound rolls, etc) and NOT be a duplicate action.

-

I'm of the opposite opinion - if Ynnari are going to exist, then please don't just have them be based around 3 sodding special characters.

Yup. This

If they go down that path, please go all the way back to 5th Edition Space Marines and force people to take Vulkan to unlock Salamander Chapter Tactics, etc.,. and all that Jazz.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Regardless of balance (nerfed or buffed), I really hope the rules are cleaned up considerably.

The best way I can think of would be to remove that whole YNNARI detachment Keyword swapping nonsense.

The 3 Characters should be the only YNNARI units period. And, like Assassins, you add them to an AELDARI army in one of 3 ways:
-1 in an Aux detachment
-All 3 in a Supreme detachment, even though they are 2 HQs and 1 LoW
-Spend 1 CP and add one of them

After that, make SfD an aura ability and/or Stratagem that the Characters give out to AELDARI unit(s). This ability should give a bonus (+1 attack or +1 to wound rolls, etc) and NOT be a duplicate action.

-

I'm of the opposite opinion - if Ynnari are going to exist, then please don't just have them be based around 3 sodding special characters.

But that would require a full Codex, which we now know isn't happening. Ynnari are getting updated in the same way as Assassin, which means the datahseets for JUST the 3 Characters are being updated will some additional rules and Strats.
The best way to do this (IMO) is to just make the 3 Characters "addable" to any AELDARI list similarly to Assassins.

It would be much cleaner. You also have the opportunity to remove SfD as a unit-to-unit rule. It should just be an Aura from the Characters and doing actions twice should be a Strat

-

 Galef wrote:
But that would require a full Codex, which we now know isn't happening. Ynnari are getting updated in the same way as Assassin, which means the datahseets for JUST the 3 Characters are being updated will some additional rules and Strats.
The best way to do this (IMO) is to just make the 3 Characters "addable" to any AELDARI list similarly to Assassins.

It would be much cleaner. You also have the opportunity to remove SfD as a unit-to-unit rule. It should just be an Aura from the Characters and doing actions twice should be a Strat

-

Why?

The Crimson Fists update worked fine in White Dwarf, neither forcing you to take Pedro nor even updating his data sheet.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Galef wrote:
But that would require a full Codex, which we now know isn't happening. Ynnari are getting updated in the same way as Assassin, which means the datahseets for JUST the 3 Characters are being updated will some additional rules and Strats.
The best way to do this (IMO) is to just make the 3 Characters "addable" to any AELDARI list similarly to Assassins.

It would be much cleaner. You also have the opportunity to remove SfD as a unit-to-unit rule. It should just be an Aura from the Characters and doing actions twice should be a Strat

-

Why?

The Crimson Fists update worked fine in White Dwarf, neither forcing you to take Pedro nor even updating his data sheet.

OK, I see what you are saying now. Yeah, I could see paying CPs to give Aeldari Detachments the YNNARI keyword.
But I stand by my statement that the Ynnari Characters should be added in the same way as Assassins if you want them in your list

And that SfD needs a complete overhaul. And not because it's OP (although that is a factor) but more because it's a mess. SfD should either be a single Strat that give 1 unit an "act twice" abililty, or if it's a blanket rule for all Ynnari, then just give them +1 to wound rolls or something like that

-

 Galef wrote:
But that would require a full Codex, which we now know isn't happening. -

Why would it need a full codex? The relevant dataslates are already available in their own codices.

 Galef wrote:
Ynnari are getting updated in the same way as Assassin, which means the datahseets for JUST the 3 Characters are being updated will some additional rules and Strats.

But this is the thing, I'm not asking for new characters. I'm merely saying that the Ynnari rules shouldn't mandate the use of one or more of the special characters.

Just have some alternative Warlord Traits and Artefacts for regular Eldar/DE/Harlequin characters.

 Galef wrote:
The best way to do this (IMO) is to just make the 3 Characters "addable" to any AELDARI list similarly to Assassins.

It would be much cleaner. You also have the opportunity to remove SfD as a unit-to-unit rule. It should just be an Aura from the Characters and doing actions twice should be a Strat
-

It's cleaner, sure, but it's also the most boring option. All you end up with are 3 characters with no-customisation that will probably end up being auto-includes in every Eldar army.

I just want the Ynnari to be a single army as they should be... as GW wrote them to be. You should be able have Craftworlds, Drukhari, and Harlequins all in the same detachment without having to split them. That completely removes everything that makes Ynnari who they are from both a fluff and a tabletop/game perspective. Otherwise, they are just Aeldari Soup and the Ynnari should just be removed as an army in 8th.

SG

All I am saying is that no other faction has the ability to sub-out Keywords to apply army-wide abilities in the same capacity.
Imperium and Chaos may be able to cherry-pick, but their detahcmetns are fairly defined as their own thing.

CWE/DE/Harlies don't need special snow-flake rules to make their soup any more unique that Imperial/Chaos soup.
Some Aura abilites from special characters and some Strats/WL traits would be enough.
But replacing Faction tratis with SfD needs to die. It's confusing (mostly for opponents, which adds to their salt towards ALL Aeldari lists) and unneeded for their to be so many varants for the same datasheet.
Are those Alaitoc -1 to be hit Reapers? Or Shoot twice Reapers? They should be the SAME Reapers.

 ServiceGames wrote:
I just want the Ynnari to be a single army as they should be... as GW wrote them to be. You should be able have Craftworlds, Drukhari, and Harlequins all in the same detachment without having to split them. That completely removes everything that makes Ynnari who they are from both a fluff and a tabletop/game perspective.

I disagree. Ynnari may be a new faction in their own right, but if so, they need their own non-CW, non-DE, non-Harlie units. "Borrowing" units from other factions to combine into one is the absolute most easily abused Soup imaginable.

Otherwise, they are just Aeldari Soup and the Ynnari should just be removed as an army in 8th.

Aside from the established 3 Characters, this is kinda what Ynnari should be in 8E. Not a true faction at all, but a group of followers from the other 3 factions united by the 3 Characters.
I know a lot of people who would be jsut fine if Ynnari was removed as a faction altogether

-

Plenty of factions have special snowflake rules over and above auras and chapter tactics.

The entire Imperial Guard orders-system is an extra layer (including access to double move and fall-back-and-shoot) of special snowflake stuff over the "normal rules". GSC get army-wide look-out-sir for free as well as their army-wide deep strike and blips thing. Orks get their moral-shenanigans and charge re-rolls. Sisters their faith thing. AdMech get Canticles. There's noting intrinsically unique about SfD being an added layer on top, except that Ynnari lose the -1 Alaitoc or whatever, and all the others above do not (but probably should).

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Honestly as much as they don’t need it could be a buff

Sean Nayden is selling his eldar army, i guess eldar are getting overnerfed.

Seriously people are defending Strength from Death and claiming that the army that came out of LVO with the highest win percentage isn't in need of a reduction in power?

Yannari need rebalanced badly, they also need to be rethought to have a lower skill floor as they are currently utterly trash when played by a bad player and bonkers to OP when played by good players.

Marin wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Honestly as much as they don’t need it could be a buff

Sean Nayden is selling his eldar army, i guess eldar are getting overnerfed.

Ynnari, not Eldar (unless something major in FAQ)

Marin wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Honestly as much as they don’t need it could be a buff

Sean Nayden is selling his eldar army, i guess eldar are getting overnerfed.

Or he's just tired of them playing it for a year+ nearly every weekend

But yeah, overnerf is pretty likely, not least because ITC missions and terrain houserules make Ynnari quite a bit stronger than they really are in normal 40K, and quite a few playtesters seem to view them through the distorted ITC lens.

 Galef wrote:
"Borrowing" units from other factions to combine into one is the absolute most easily abused Soup imaginable. Aside from the established 3 Characters, this is kinda what Ynnari should be in 8E. Not a true faction at all, but a group of followers from the other 3 factions united by the 3 Characters.
I know a lot of people who would be jsut fine if Ynnari was removed as a faction altogether

There's no borrowing being done. It's a group of followers from all three Aeldari factions *united* (as you posted above, and united is the key word here) under one to three characters depending on who is leading which detachment. But, it should be a united force... all being in one detachment. Not three detachments of completely different factions mixed into into Aeldari soup. If allowing all three factions to be in one detachment is going to cause game balance issues, then the Ynnari should be taken out of competitive play. Allow the Aeldari to ally with each other and even allow the members of the Triumverate of the Ynnead to lead them if you like. But, without allowing them to all be part of the same detachment, you're taking away everything that makes the Ynnari what they are. So, either make the Ynnari an actual army that can consist of any and all Index and Codex units from Craftworlds, Drukhari, and Harelquins in the same detachment or just pull the Ynnari from being allowed to be in competitive play (they could definitely still find their way into Narrative play as a single detachment). Single detachment army or don't allow them in competitive play... one or the other... don't force them to be an Aeldari soup army.

SG

Ice_can wrote:
Seriously people are defending Strength from Death and claiming that the army that came out of LVO with the highest win percentage isn't in need of a reduction in power?

Yannari need rebalanced badly, they also need to be rethought to have a lower skill floor as they are currently utterly trash when played by a bad player and bonkers to OP when played by good players.

Yes. Because Strength from Death isn't the problem. 50% is ITC terrain houserules. Play on a typical white dwarf battle report table and there's really no hiding those Dark Reapers or Spears. And 50% is Doom. Take that psychic power away and you're looking at a low tier army with double activations seriously sub-par to the far more reliable CP or unit-ability base double activations.

Ynarri should really be its own codex. that way units cna be balanced for points based on access to sfd. boom problem solved.

in a game of limited activation it really not surprising the faction with extra activation is able to pull ahead. in the case of reapers finding a points cost for a unit ignoring bs modifiers and putting out a ton of decent str /ap shots is already difficult, but throw in extra activations and its either going to end up overcosted in one army or undercosted in the other.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Ynarri should really be its own codex. that way units cna be balanced for points based on access to sfd. boom problem solved.

I honestly don't disagree with this at all. As long as all three factions can be in the same detachment, I'm fine with some point changes as necessary as long as it doesn't make it so that Ynnari are so overcosted that they become the new MEQ.

SG

If they nerf it into the ground their making a huge mistake. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen. If it does as I stated earlier, Craftworlds, harlequins, and drukhari as a whole need buffs to make up for the loss.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they nerf it into the ground their making a huge mistake. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen. If it does as I stated earlier, Craftworlds, harlequins, and drukhari as a whole need buffs to make up for the loss.

They won't nerf it to the ground. Despite loud opinions GW does actually understand the game and issues at hand.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they nerf it into the ground their making a huge mistake. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen. If it does as I stated earlier, Craftworlds, harlequins, and drukhari as a whole need buffs to make up for the loss.

They won't nerf it to the ground. Despite loud opinions GW does actually understand the game and issues at hand.

This is the FOURTH nerf Ynnari have had in 8th. GW don't understand the game in any way, shape or form.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they nerf it into the ground their making a huge mistake. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen. If it does as I stated earlier, Craftworlds, harlequins, and drukhari as a whole need buffs to make up for the loss.

They won't nerf it to the ground. Despite loud opinions GW does actually understand the game and issues at hand.

That’s what I was thinking. Plus they actually wanna sell the models, and the fact that next year is probably gonna be slannesh daemons vs Aeldari as a whole concept with rumors of ynnari getting new models leads me to believe they might just get reinvisioned.
Edit: you’re saying 4th nerf but it could be a reimagining or even buff of some sort

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they nerf it into the ground their making a huge mistake. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen. If it does as I stated earlier, Craftworlds, harlequins, and drukhari as a whole need buffs to make up for the loss.

They won't nerf it to the ground. Despite loud opinions GW does actually understand the game and issues at hand.

This is the FOURTH nerf Ynnari have had in 8th. GW don't understand the game in any way, shape or form.

If GW nerfed Inari 4 times in 8th ed, and it still ends up in top 8, then either the nerfs aren't real nerfs or they really don't know what they are doing. When GW fixed, their own words, BA they reducted the whole army to type of HQ and scouts. That is a nerf.

 ServiceGames wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Ynarri should really be its own codex. that way units cna be balanced for points based on access to sfd. boom problem solved.

I honestly don't disagree with this at all. As long as all three factions can be in the same detachment, I'm fine with some point changes as necessary as long as it doesn't make it so that Ynnari are so overcosted that they become the new MEQ.

SG

they should def be able to ally other eldar, craftworlds, drukari and harlies just with thier own different points cost based on thier power with Ynarri special rules. maybe even flesh out Ynarri more wih thier own relics strategems etc. I don't think they should be able to plug into eachothers detachments though more just allies.