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"without any detriment to their normal functions."
Certainly without sufficient detriment to their normal functions.

Those Reapers either decided to be within 7" of an enemy unit (significantly detrimental to them), or had a very expensive Psyker manifest a high-WC power successfully. Either way, not expensive enough, but not free.

I didn't say they were free, I meant that the Reapers dont lose anything by shooting/attempting to shoot twice. If Yvraine doesn't manifest the power they can still fire normally without any problem.

There was a better way to word it was on the tip of my tongue but I lost it, very annoying.

Bharring wrote:
"without any detriment to their normal functions."
Certainly without sufficient detriment to their normal functions.

Those Reapers either decided to be within 7" of an enemy unit (significantly detrimental to them), or had a very expensive Psyker manifest a high-WC power successfully. Either way, not expensive enough, but not free.

TIL 132 points is a 'very expensive psyker.' Keep in mind a space marine Librarian is 36 points cheaper with no invuln, no +1 to cast and deny, much weaker powers than WotP, worse movement, fewer attacks and wounds, and a crappier weapon profile. The librarian gets +1 T and +1 Sv over Yvraine, the latter of which is useless in most situations and the former isn't a huge durability buff compared to a 4++.

Also, WC 8 when you have +1 to cast is effectively WC 7, which is 58.3% on 2D6. Assuming you use no CP rerolls, that is an average of six free CP per game right off the bat based on other factions' shoot twice strats. You toss in CP rerolls into it and you have a pretty reliable chance of getting WC7 off, and you don't even need to save the CP rerolls for your Farseers because they get to reroll failed psychic tests for free anyway.

RogueApiary wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"without any detriment to their normal functions."
Certainly without sufficient detriment to their normal functions.

Those Reapers either decided to be within 7" of an enemy unit (significantly detrimental to them), or had a very expensive Psyker manifest a high-WC power successfully. Either way, not expensive enough, but not free.

TIL 132 points is a 'very expensive psyker.' Keep in mind a space marine Librarian is 36 points cheaper with no invuln, no +1 to cast and deny, much weaker powers than WotP, worse movement, fewer attacks and wounds, and a crappier weapon profile. The librarian gets +1 T and +1 Sv over Yvraine, the latter of which is useless in most situations and the former isn't a huge durability buff compared to a 4++.

Also, WC 8 when you have +1 to cast is effectively WC 7, which is 58.3% on 2D6. Assuming you use no CP rerolls, that is an average of six free CP per game right off the bat based on other factions' shoot twice strats. You toss in CP rerolls into it and you have a pretty reliable chance of getting WC7 off, and you don't even need to save the CP rerolls for your Farseers because they get to reroll failed psychic tests for free anyway.

Yvraine is appropriately costed. How about we talk about how yncarne is over costed. Yvraine does everything he does better besides hop around the board. The avatar in Khaine in retrospect is what, 220 points? Yes he has psychic ability, which I think should put him at 250-260 points, as he isn’t a beatstick. The solitaire out performs him for only 90 points, has a better invul, can move across the board in a single turn, and potentially fight twice. If yvraine needs any point increase it’s simply to 140 points. That’s all I would give you, is 8 points. No more. No one honestly cares about the good or bad of a space marine librarian, hence the name space marine.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"without any detriment to their normal functions."
Certainly without sufficient detriment to their normal functions.

Those Reapers either decided to be within 7" of an enemy unit (significantly detrimental to them), or had a very expensive Psyker manifest a high-WC power successfully. Either way, not expensive enough, but not free.

TIL 132 points is a 'very expensive psyker.' Keep in mind a space marine Librarian is 36 points cheaper with no invuln, no +1 to cast and deny, much weaker powers than WotP, worse movement, fewer attacks and wounds, and a crappier weapon profile. The librarian gets +1 T and +1 Sv over Yvraine, the latter of which is useless in most situations and the former isn't a huge durability buff compared to a 4++.

Also, WC 8 when you have +1 to cast is effectively WC 7, which is 58.3% on 2D6. Assuming you use no CP rerolls, that is an average of six free CP per game right off the bat based on other factions' shoot twice strats. You toss in CP rerolls into it and you have a pretty reliable chance of getting WC7 off, and you don't even need to save the CP rerolls for your Farseers because they get to reroll failed psychic tests for free anyway.

Yvraine is appropriately costed. How about we talk about how yncarne is over costed. Yvraine does everything he does better besides hop around the board. The avatar in Khaine in retrospect is what, 220 points? Yes he has psychic ability, which I think should put him at 250-260 points, as he isn’t a beatstick. The solitaire out performs him for only 90 points, has a better invul, can move across the board in a single turn, and potentially fight twice. If yvraine needs any point increase it’s simply to 140 points. That’s all I would give you, is 8 points. No more. No one honestly cares about the good or bad of a space marine librarian, hence the name space marine.

I didn't say she was undercosted nor do I think she needs her points adjusted, I was pointing out that Bharring's argument that she's 'expensive' given what she provides and that WotP is a 'difficult WC' is completely divorced from reality.

MalfunctBot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


They aren't. You can make a wide variety of craftworld, dark eldar, and craftworld + dark eldar lists that compete well. Ynnari are a massive crutch that pushes Craftworlds into the stratosphere. I main Eldar in the competitive scene.

Does that by your own description mean that Yannari as writen in the index are inherently broken if they take an ok- good soup and push it into the stratosphere.

You want an army that gets 8 turns to everyone else's 6 you should be paying for that 25 to 35% improvement in turns.

Multiple free actions every turn was never going to be balanceable especially when your doing it to units from other codex's for esentially free sacrificing a minor trait even -1 to hit vrs extra turns is a no brainer.

That people are trying to defend Yannari when it's still got the highest win percentage of any codex or index after multiple nerfs and makes craftworld and Drukari which are both achieving within the balanced to good win rates look poor highlights how much of a balance problem they are.

Someone needs to watch and listen to Frontline Gamings newest podcast. They talk about layers like you.. that want points paid for specific and fluffy actions. And how it’s not the way the game is meant to be made and shouldn’t happen. Worth a watch

Free additional turns isn't specific and fluffy it's game breaking.

Your saying you would be ok playing a game were your opponents always get 7 turns and you only get 5?

Thats what your saying in fair and balanced, then again at a certain point it reads more like your trying to troll rather than have an honest discussion about balance.

Move move move
Fix bayonets
First rank fire, second rank fire
Emperor's Wrath

Cry me a god damn river.

I have an idea, let's make orders once per turn period, and require a 8+ to activate.

Giving up shooting in exchange for movement
An extra fightphase, after you've already been in combat a turn, 2 if you're the one charging, with Guardsmen
Firing your S3 Ap- Lasgun twice
Firing, at best, an Earthshaker Cannon twice, for 3CP

Doesnt really compare to Shining Spears/Dark Reapers moving, shooting, and/or fighting twice without any detriment to their normal functions.

You are wrong, IG stuff is guaranteed and strat can only be stopped from 2 factions. World can fail or you could fail to kill the unit that will give you the soulburst, so of course with bigger risk, you should get less limitations.

" didn't say she was undercosted nor do I think she needs her points adjusted, I was pointing out that Bharring's argument that she's 'expensive' given what she provides and that WotP is a 'difficult WC' is completely divorced from reality."

I may have overstated her price.

I meant to imply that they *do* pay, they just don't pay enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I think most of us are on the same page there.)

Bharring wrote:
" didn't say she was undercosted nor do I think she needs her points adjusted, I was pointing out that Bharring's argument that she's 'expensive' given what she provides and that WotP is a 'difficult WC' is completely divorced from reality."

I may have overstated her price.

I meant to imply that they *do* pay, they just don't pay enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I think most of us are on the same page there.)

132 is plenty.. no more needed. She needs to be playable. Anymore and she wouldn’t be that

RogueApiary wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"without any detriment to their normal functions."
Certainly without sufficient detriment to their normal functions.

Those Reapers either decided to be within 7" of an enemy unit (significantly detrimental to them), or had a very expensive Psyker manifest a high-WC power successfully. Either way, not expensive enough, but not free.

TIL 132 points is a 'very expensive psyker.' Keep in mind a space marine Librarian is 36 points cheaper with no invuln, no +1 to cast and deny, much weaker powers than WotP, worse movement, fewer attacks and wounds, and a crappier weapon profile. The librarian gets +1 T and +1 Sv over Yvraine, the latter of which is useless in most situations and the former isn't a huge durability buff compared to a 4++.

Also, WC 8 when you have +1 to cast is effectively WC 7, which is 58.3% on 2D6. Assuming you use no CP rerolls, that is an average of six free CP per game right off the bat based on other factions' shoot twice strats. You toss in CP rerolls into it and you have a pretty reliable chance of getting WC7 off, and you don't even need to save the CP rerolls for your Farseers because they get to reroll failed psychic tests for free anyway.

36pts is alot, for instance Arhiman is around 135 pts. You just can`t compare legendary characters with random human pshycher.
36 pts cheaper is alot, you can`t compare cheap pshycher with legendary characters.

Marin wrote:

MalfunctBot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


They aren't. You can make a wide variety of craftworld, dark eldar, and craftworld + dark eldar lists that compete well. Ynnari are a massive crutch that pushes Craftworlds into the stratosphere. I main Eldar in the competitive scene.

Does that by your own description mean that Yannari as writen in the index are inherently broken if they take an ok- good soup and push it into the stratosphere.

You want an army that gets 8 turns to everyone else's 6 you should be paying for that 25 to 35% improvement in turns.

Multiple free actions every turn was never going to be balanceable especially when your doing it to units from other codex's for esentially free sacrificing a minor trait even -1 to hit vrs extra turns is a no brainer.

That people are trying to defend Yannari when it's still got the highest win percentage of any codex or index after multiple nerfs and makes craftworld and Drukari which are both achieving within the balanced to good win rates look poor highlights how much of a balance problem they are.

Someone needs to watch and listen to Frontline Gamings newest podcast. They talk about layers like you.. that want points paid for specific and fluffy actions. And how it’s not the way the game is meant to be made and shouldn’t happen. Worth a watch

Free additional turns isn't specific and fluffy it's game breaking.

Your saying you would be ok playing a game were your opponents always get 7 turns and you only get 5?

Thats what your saying in fair and balanced, then again at a certain point it reads more like your trying to troll rather than have an honest discussion about balance.

Move move move
Fix bayonets
First rank fire, second rank fire
Emperor's Wrath

Cry me a god damn river.

I have an idea, let's make orders once per turn period, and require a 8+ to activate.

Giving up shooting in exchange for movement
An extra fightphase, after you've already been in combat a turn, 2 if you're the one charging, with Guardsmen
Firing your S3 Ap- Lasgun twice
Firing, at best, an Earthshaker Cannon twice, for 3CP

Doesnt really compare to Shining Spears/Dark Reapers moving, shooting, and/or fighting twice without any detriment to their normal functions.

You are wrong, IG stuff is guaranteed and strat can only be stopped from 2 factions. World can fail or you could fail to kill the unit that will give you the soulburst, so of course with bigger risk, you should get less limitations.

Obviously Soulburst goes off often enough or it wouldn't be seen at top tables, and a unit of Reapers firing twice is much more impactful than Lasguns or, god forbid, a single Earthshaker doing the same for 2CP (plus an initial 1CP investment). If anyone I was facing wanted to waste their CP to deny that strat they could go right ahead.

RogueApiary wrote:

I didn't say she was undercosted nor do I think she needs her points adjusted, I was pointing out that Bharring's argument that she's 'expensive' given what she provides and that WotP is a 'difficult WC' is completely divorced from reality.

Eh. She's a good value for what she does, but that doesn't mean she's not expensive. A castellan is a good value, but you wouldn't call it a "cheap" unit either. Which supports the point Bharring was making and which we all generally seem to agree about: ynnari are good for what they cost/give up, but there IS a cost. Which, as has been pointed out in this thread, is kind of important to remember when discussing ynnari given how many people that gripe about them accuse them of being free or seem to be (understandably) unclear on how they actually work.

So yeah, we can argue over whether 130ish points for a soul burst every other turn (because that's what she actively does most games; she rarely gets into combat) is "expensive," but I think we're all on the same page about the greater point being made.

Zooming out a bit... While the most powerful ynnari combos ought to be toned down a bit, my biggest hope for the reworked rules is that ynnari become playable as an army rather than as gimmick for spears and reapers that gets increasingly less useful the more ynnari you actually have. I don't need that to mean craftworlders riding in raiders again, but I'd love to feel good about fielding avengers and incubi as ynnari again. We don't need a power reduction so much as a power redistribution.

My pet preference would be to give ynnari blood tithe style tokens earned when things die that can be spent to produce Acts of Faith style effects. Eschew the whole bonus action thing and all the complications it brings entirely. Instead of moving twice, just increase the distance moved in the movement phase. Instead of shooting twice, just add +1 to to-hit rolls. That sort of thing.

Moriarty wrote:
Do you mean are they due a trip to the Veterinarian? If so, there will be a great disturbance in the Farce. As if a million soul stones shattered at once . . .

The Eldar having been spayed would explain a lot...

Compare points cost to the only actually balanced codex atm which is Tyranids.

The castellan is effectively 3 times the durability of a Barbed Heirodule and more killy. Yet it only costs twice as much?

Tyranid flyers are only a bit cheaper than crimson hunter exarch's? Hows that correctly pointed?

Dark reapers I think are appropriately costed without taking Soulburst actions into account (which you shouldn't considering it isn't part of their codex).

MalfunctBot wrote:

Marin wrote:

MalfunctBot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


They aren't. You can make a wide variety of craftworld, dark eldar, and craftworld + dark eldar lists that compete well. Ynnari are a massive crutch that pushes Craftworlds into the stratosphere. I main Eldar in the competitive scene.

Does that by your own description mean that Yannari as writen in the index are inherently broken if they take an ok- good soup and push it into the stratosphere.

You want an army that gets 8 turns to everyone else's 6 you should be paying for that 25 to 35% improvement in turns.

Multiple free actions every turn was never going to be balanceable especially when your doing it to units from other codex's for esentially free sacrificing a minor trait even -1 to hit vrs extra turns is a no brainer.

That people are trying to defend Yannari when it's still got the highest win percentage of any codex or index after multiple nerfs and makes craftworld and Drukari which are both achieving within the balanced to good win rates look poor highlights how much of a balance problem they are.

Someone needs to watch and listen to Frontline Gamings newest podcast. They talk about layers like you.. that want points paid for specific and fluffy actions. And how it’s not the way the game is meant to be made and shouldn’t happen. Worth a watch

Free additional turns isn't specific and fluffy it's game breaking.

Your saying you would be ok playing a game were your opponents always get 7 turns and you only get 5?

Thats what your saying in fair and balanced, then again at a certain point it reads more like your trying to troll rather than have an honest discussion about balance.

Move move move
Fix bayonets
First rank fire, second rank fire
Emperor's Wrath

Cry me a god damn river.

I have an idea, let's make orders once per turn period, and require a 8+ to activate.

Giving up shooting in exchange for movement
An extra fightphase, after you've already been in combat a turn, 2 if you're the one charging, with Guardsmen
Firing your S3 Ap- Lasgun twice
Firing, at best, an Earthshaker Cannon twice, for 3CP

Doesnt really compare to Shining Spears/Dark Reapers moving, shooting, and/or fighting twice without any detriment to their normal functions.

You are wrong, IG stuff is guaranteed and strat can only be stopped from 2 factions. World can fail or you could fail to kill the unit that will give you the soulburst, so of course with bigger risk, you should get less limitations.

Obviously Soulburst goes off often enough or it wouldn't be seen at top tables, and a unit of Reapers firing twice is much more impactful than Lasguns or, god forbid, a single Earthshaker doing the same for 2CP (plus an initial 1CP investment). If anyone I was facing wanted to waste their CP to deny that strat they could go right ahead.

Dark reapers are hardly seen in top tables in big tournaments. In Adepticon singles there was only 1 ynnari player in top 16 and he was not using dark reapers.
The other eldar player was using 7 flyer list, without ynnari, spears or dark reapers. With orcs and GSC so popular, dark reapers are not good enough. Especially since they die like flies, 1 wound and no invulnerable save.
Generally speaking there were more Ahriman models than Yvraine. Ahriman is 131 pts, can cast and deny 3 powers and is 4 toughness, have +6str 3d weapon.

just listened to the latest chapter tactics podcast (ep 107). Geoff 'In Control@ Robinson said adepticon will be the last hurrah for Ynarri.

Wonder what that meant

GW seems to make two types of fixs. A fix that doesn't really effect the army or unit, and it gets still taken. And a BA style of fix or conscript with commisar type of fix. Maybe they know what is in the WD index and think the second option is going to be a thing. But who knows. GW does day one FAQs, there is nothing that can stop them from rolling out a nerf or buff WD index, only to change it later.

 Nithaniel wrote:
just listened to the latest chapter tactics podcast (ep 107). Geoff 'In Control@ Robinson said adepticon will be the last hurrah for Ynarri.

Wonder what that meant

Is him speculating his own opinion. That’s what that means

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
just listened to the latest chapter tactics podcast (ep 107). Geoff 'In Control@ Robinson said adepticon will be the last hurrah for Ynarri.

Wonder what that meant

Is him speculating his own opinion. That’s what that means

Nah... Ynnari are losing their SFD mechanic.

FWIW, Knights are also being nerfed.

Guess who is untouched? Guard! Because this is the lead designer's favorite faction.

 Marmatag wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
just listened to the latest chapter tactics podcast (ep 107). Geoff 'In Control@ Robinson said adepticon will be the last hurrah for Ynarri.

Wonder what that meant

Is him speculating his own opinion. That’s what that means

Nah... Ynnari are losing their SFD mechanic.

FWIW, Knights are also being nerfed.

Guess who is untouched? Guard! Because this is the lead designer's favorite faction.

I really really want you to be wrong (nothing personal) but seriously guard get a Fing pass for the 3rd FAQ in a row, after the insanity of cheaper tank commanders in CA 2018.

Really nerfing the faction with a 53% win rate but leaving the 57% win rate faction untouched, because balance?

Hopefully appocolys events catch on so I can hopefully play a 40k that doesn't reward spamming dice over actually having the right tool for the job.

 Marmatag wrote:


Guess who is untouched? Guard! Because this is the lead designer's favorite faction.

Guard has seen nerfs in the past. And GSC saw mortars go to 7 points.

As I think on guard I'm less convinced that they need serious nerfs. Especially not with assassins potentially taking up air and more sniper rules popping up.

When knights take the bat I'm interested to see if shadowswords appear again, but I 'm doubtful. Aside from super heavies I'm most interested in stuff that doesn't need LOS to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:


Really nerfing the faction with a 53% win rate but leaving the 57% win rate faction untouched, because balance?

A 57% win rate when attached to knights? I'd love to see data on pure IG if you have it. If not I'll go through the LVO lists when I have a chance.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Guess who is untouched? Guard! Because this is the lead designer's favorite faction.

Guard has seen nerfs in the past. And GSC saw mortars go to 7 points.

As I think on guard I'm less convinced that they need serious nerfs. Especially not with assassins potentially taking up air and more sniper rules popping up.

When knights take the bat I'm interested to see if shadowswords appear again, but I 'm doubtful. Aside from super heavies I'm most interested in stuff that doesn't need LOS to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:


Really nerfing the faction with a 53% win rate but leaving the 57% win rate faction untouched, because balance?

A 57% win rate when attached to knights? I'd love to see data on pure IG if you have it. If not I'll go through the LVO lists when I have a chance.

Thats not pure knight list either, if you want to go pure vrs pure they drop off as soup is king but pure guard is above pure knights.

The data is also hard to find and kinda wonky as many of the pure lists are kinda horibly inefficient.
I'm hopeful that if ITC best infaction does go to mono codex only, this will change and we will really be able to track which codex's are strong or if the power creep is from soup itself.

 Marmatag wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
just listened to the latest chapter tactics podcast (ep 107). Geoff 'In Control@ Robinson said adepticon will be the last hurrah for Ynarri.

Wonder what that meant

Is him speculating his own opinion. That’s what that means

Nah... Ynnari are losing their SFD mechanic.

FWIW, Knights are also being nerfed.

Guess who is untouched? Guard! Because this is the lead designer's favorite faction.

Not so much a nerf as a reworking. I’ve said it once I’ll say it again and again, the craftworld, drukhari, and harlequin Tripp’s are what make ynnari good. They will continue to top even if the “new” sfd isn’t good. For some reason people want the entire Aeldari race nerfed? Not happening guys.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
just listened to the latest chapter tactics podcast (ep 107). Geoff 'In Control@ Robinson said adepticon will be the last hurrah for Ynarri.

Wonder what that meant

Is him speculating his own opinion. That’s what that means

Nah... Ynnari are losing their SFD mechanic.

FWIW, Knights are also being nerfed.

Guess who is untouched? Guard! Because this is the lead designer's favorite faction.

Not so much a nerf as a reworking. I’ve said it once I’ll say it again and again, the craftworld, drukhari, and harlequin Tripp’s are what make ynnari good. They will continue to top even if the “new” sfd isn’t good. For some reason people want the entire Aeldari race nerfed? Not happening guys.

Well, if SFD stops being competitive, then the optimal thing to do would be to just field craftworld, drukhari, and harlies as their non-ynnari selves. Plenty of lists seem to be doing that already. Going Ynnari usually just means you're either getting the most out of the Yncarne's teleportation ability or else that you're double tapping with a very efficient shooting unit..

Also, I know I"m helping to derail the thread here, but I"m actually pretty okay with where IG are as their own faction. They can put out a lot of shots, but shadowswords die, and I actually kind of enjoy killing off/tying up smaller tanks. The biggest sins of the guard this edition have been fearless conscripts (now nerfed to not be competitive) and their ability to generate CP cheaply for other armies. Monofaction guard though? They shoot like crazy, but I generally feel like I have a decent shot against them.