Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A.T. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I attached table of contents of the codex that was released alongside all the models you probably own today.

That's the 5e index - the codex that essentially killed the inquisition and turned the rest of the grey knights into codex:grey marines, complete with rhinos, tactical marine statlines, and a setup geared towards fighting other marine armies.

Not that the henchmen weren't still useful in-game on account of being cheap, but they had been stuffed into a single unit and they still haven't recovered from it. The core central unit of the inquisition army - stormtroopers - were also removed entirely.

I've said it before but it's a pity that's where GW went with them. The 3e daemonhunters were a more elite, more defensively capable army which didn't stack their most expensive wargear on their least capable models, and which probably would have been the beneficiary of the scions update.

Seeing as the original Daemonhunters codex had Rhinos and Strike squads always having that statline, I'm not sure what you're babbling about.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seeing as the original Daemonhunters codex had Rhinos and Strike squads always having that statline, I'm not sure what you're babbling about.

Grey Knights could not ride in rhinos.
Power armoured infantry had WS5 (back when it was rare) and true grit, among other rules.

Grey Knights suffer from the simple problem of being more expensive space marines that die like ordinary space marines.
Which is a problem when even basic space marines are not good enough atm.

No amount of tinkering with powers or stratagems will change this crippling core fact.

The Daemonhunter codex was strong at the time but it to suffered from this issue. The strongest 5th edition GK armies abused Psybolt ammo on Dreadnoughts/Razorbacks and barely used actual Greyknights.

If we got Psybolts back we might at least have a fighting chance if it also came with more point discounts and a rule that let us ignore psychic focus.

There is so much that is wrong with the army that it will take more than one thing to fix us.

They should have psybolt ammo like the deathwatch have special issue ammo. However that would be the only choice, maybe reduce the range of weapons using it by 6" so it isn't a complete auto use in all game situations.

Increase all infantry, terminators and paladins wounds by 1, not characters though.

Maybe some psychic powers could be tweaked or improved, sanctuary would be good if it halved all damage of weapons in addition to the invulnerable save improving.

If the above happened, their smite can stay as it is.

The psychic powers themselves are ok'ish. We just need to be able to put them out several times a turn. We need to be able to give Sanctuary to both a Terminator/Paladin Deathstar and a DKGM, and anybody else too.

Wouldn't hurt if our DTW rolls were better too. Give us Hexagrammic Wards back, and make them like the old Psychic hoods.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
They should have psybolt ammo like the deathwatch have special issue ammo. However that would be the only choice, maybe reduce the range of weapons using it by 6" so it isn't a complete auto use in all game situations.

Increase all infantry, terminators and paladins wounds by 1, not characters though.

Maybe some psychic powers could be tweaked or improved, sanctuary would be good if it halved all damage of weapons in addition to the invulnerable save improving.

If the above happened, their smite can stay as it is.

+1 wound.
Tell me how viable all those Primaris seem to be with their extra wound.

What is everyone's opinion on Special Issue Ammunition? It seems to be really good for almost no cost.

 Ordana wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
They should have psybolt ammo like the deathwatch have special issue ammo. However that would be the only choice, maybe reduce the range of weapons using it by 6" so it isn't a complete auto use in all game situations.

Increase all infantry, terminators and paladins wounds by 1, not characters though.

Maybe some psychic powers could be tweaked or improved, sanctuary would be good if it halved all damage of weapons in addition to the invulnerable save improving.

If the above happened, their smite can stay as it is.

+1 wound.
Tell me how viable all those Primaris seem to be with their extra wound.

Yeah, multi damage weapons are still going to be a problem, but then in melee against chaff they are double durability for strike squads, and the same against boaters.

Terminators would become 3W in this as well, meaning 2 damage weapons and on average, D3 damage weapons don't take them out with a failed save.

Survivability is a huge issue for all marines, what would you suggest, +2 wounds? Feel no pain?

A.T. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seeing as the original Daemonhunters codex had Rhinos and Strike squads always having that statline, I'm not sure what you're babbling about.

Grey Knights could not ride in rhinos.
Power armoured infantry had WS5 (back when it was rare) and true grit, among other rules.

They and Chimeras were entries. I was being cheeky. I used to play them in 4th many moons ago.

I don't remember the WS5 off the top of my head though.

Maybe every unit can choose every turn, activate psybolt ammo or defensive psi shield for +1 on all saves. This way you would have some real choices to make

The only realistic thing I can think of is a reduction in CP costs. Changes to statlines seem like a substantial change, and GW has stated that they think 8th is in a good place and that they won't be making any big changes.

GW really needs to reconsider how they generate CPs overall. Mono-GK builds can get maybe 4-6 CPs at most, but its almost as if we were balanced around having buckets of them.

Well, my impression from the read here is that the discussion is rather abstract, made at the drawing board.
My impression after 3 games is that the army is not as bad as it seems with the new bolter rule.
I managed to get some mileage out of it with almost 200 shots in round two when everything goes will in round one (cover as much as possible).

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, my impression from the read here is that the discussion is rather abstract, made at the drawing board.
My impression after 3 games is that the army is not as bad as it seems with the new bolter rule.
I managed to get some mileage out of it with almost 200 shots in round two when everything goes will in round one (cover as much as possible).

The bolter rule does not help that much because deep striking counts as moving. Also, any unit that is not a strike squad is either a worse version of normal marines, or a unit available to normal marines who get actual chapter tactics.

Uuuuunless you are playing grandmaster dreadnoodles, draigo or voldus.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, my impression from the read here is that the discussion is rather abstract, made at the drawing board.
My impression after 3 games is that the army is not as bad as it seems with the new bolter rule.
I managed to get some mileage out of it with almost 200 shots in round two when everything goes will in round one (cover as much as possible).

can the list be run with termintors instead of strikes or is the lost of 100shots too much to keep the army valid?

Jaxler and Karol:
The new bolter rule helps a lot.
If the unit has stormbolters and deep strikes within 12'', the stormbolters will come to full effect.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Jaxler and Karol:
The new bolter rule helps a lot.
If the unit has stormbolters and deep strikes within 12'', the stormbolters will come to full effect.

Wrong. DS into play puts you OUTSIDE 12", not AT 12". So by definition you are outside of RF range of SBs.

Ehm, default deepstrike is outside of 9. not 12.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Jaxler and Karol:
The new bolter rule helps a lot.
If the unit has stormbolters and deep strikes within 12'', the stormbolters will come to full effect.

Wrong. DS into play puts you OUTSIDE 12", not AT 12". So by definition you are outside of RF range of SBs.

Wrong. Deepstrike is 9"

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Wrong. DS into play puts you OUTSIDE 12", not AT 12". So by definition you are outside of RF range of SBs.

Minimum distance on a deep strike drop is 9".

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Jaxler and Karol:
The new bolter rule helps a lot.
If the unit has stormbolters and deep strikes within 12'', the stormbolters will come to full effect.

Wrong. DS into play puts you OUTSIDE 12", not AT 12". So by definition you are outside of RF range of SBs.

what?

and also what?

Deep striking with storm bolters works...exactly the same way as it did before beta bolters for non-terminator models...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to the state of GKs:

My one GK playing friend is still using his GK as deathwatch until they fix some of the core structural issues with the codex that make GK not play the way he'd want them to. Namely:

1) Their statline is worse than other "elite" astartes

2) One weapon (falchions) always in every circumstance deals more damage than the other three weapon options it competes with, thus making one of the biggest wargear choices in the 'dex a non-choice.

3) An army that ends up with an average of 15-20 possible casts at 2k points has 6 psychic powers to choose from, total. This is just silly when other Psyker heavy armies have 2-3 psychic tables they can use.

4) GK heroes are worse at psychic combat than other comparable psykers. GK librarians are the worst space marine librarians when it comes to causing damage with their psychic powers.

5) None of the special ranged weapons fills a meaningful role in the army for the points making the other weapon choice also meaningless - upgrade nobody, keep everyone on storm bolters.

So even if you are playing GK at the best they can possibly be, they are still unsatisfying to play since so many choices have basically been made for you: Which loadout to take, which units to take, which powers to use, which stratagems to use, which warlord trait to take is basically a given. So, since another codex exists that gives more meaningful choices (and allows him to use his Terminators in a way where they're actually good) he'll stick with those rules.

SG

Indeed, deep strike is more than 9'' away. So storm bolters can come to full effect!

An army that ends up with an average of 15-20 possible casts at 2k points has 6 psychic powers to choose from, total. This is just silly when other Psyker heavy armies have 2-3 psychic tables they can use.

Smite is working pretty well, it can be cast on 4+ and it causes 1 damage without the penalty other armies suffer when using smite several times.

GK heroes are worse at psychic combat than other comparable psykers. GK librarians are the worst space marine librarians when it comes to causing damage with their psychic powers.

GMNK can be boosted to have a 3+ or even 2+ inv save. And these guys can be a pain.

5) None of the special ranged weapons fills a meaningful role in the army for the points making the other weapon choice also meaningless - upgrade nobody, keep everyone on storm bolters.

Storm bolters all the way. Heavy weapons are better to be mounted on Dreads.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, deep strike is more than 9'' away. So storm bolters can come to full effect!

An army that ends up with an average of 15-20 possible casts at 2k points has 6 psychic powers to choose from, total. This is just silly when other Psyker heavy armies have 2-3 psychic tables they can use.

Smite is working pretty well, it can be cast on 4+ and it causes 1 damage without the penalty other armies suffer when using smite several times.

GK heroes are worse at psychic combat than other comparable psykers. GK librarians are the worst space marine librarians when it comes to causing damage with their psychic powers.

GMNK can be boosted to have a 3+ or even 2+ inv save. And these guys can be a pain.

5) None of the special ranged weapons fills a meaningful role in the army for the points making the other weapon choice also meaningless - upgrade nobody, keep everyone on storm bolters.

Storm bolters all the way. Heavy weapons are better to be mounted on Dreads.

1 extra wound is not worth paying that much extra one unit that is so expensive. You are essentially paying the full premium for pysker and doing almost nothing for it.

2 the grand master is not bad. I would enjoy if he was not the best unit in the army in the sense that he is the only good non character in the army. Literally outside HQ, the army has no good units.

3. Yes, dreads are good. They are even better in an army with a chapter tactic. Dreads being good has nothing to do with the problem. In fact you agree with us that grey knights should never not be armed with a bolter and double swords, so agree that this is a problem. Or at least I think you do, you did not offer a solution.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Indeed, deep strike is more than 9'' away. So storm bolters can come to full effect!

An army that ends up with an average of 15-20 possible casts at 2k points has 6 psychic powers to choose from, total. This is just silly when other Psyker heavy armies have 2-3 psychic tables they can use.

Smite is working pretty well, it can be cast on 4+ and it causes 1 damage without the penalty other armies suffer when using smite several times.

GK heroes are worse at psychic combat than other comparable psykers. GK librarians are the worst space marine librarians when it comes to causing damage with their psychic powers.

GMNK can be boosted to have a 3+ or even 2+ inv save. And these guys can be a pain.

5) None of the special ranged weapons fills a meaningful role in the army for the points making the other weapon choice also meaningless - upgrade nobody, keep everyone on storm bolters.

Storm bolters all the way. Heavy weapons are better to be mounted on Dreads.

I understand that Gk can be built in such a way that they are quasi-functional. but compared to the codex version of, say, thousand sons or eldar, Gk give you an ABYSMALLY boring version of the "army of psykers" gameplay fantasy. Each squad just plops out an extra mortal wound in addition to resolving their SB attacks. Great, you've moved one step of their damage resolution to a different phase, that's... certainly going to take longer to roll through?

They just need a redesign at this point. they're locked into a mono-build at this point and in pretty much any edition that's a sign of an unsatisfying army.

Here's how GW will fix it.

In order to build hype for the sisters drop, they'll release Inquisition, probably as a Blackstone or a Kill Team release. There will be data sheets for Ordo Malleus Inquisitors- not all HQ either, some will be elite.

These characters will buff the Grey Knight units that are meant to defend them. They will also, of course, give the army access to an Inquisitorial psychic power table- albeit, this won't likely be available to existing GK units, but it will be variety for the army.

The best part is that being Ordo Malleus, they'll look and feel so much like Grey Knights, from aesthetics to fluff, that it won't even feel like soup. In fact, the rule for integrating Inq into the armies of their respective chambers militant will likely be more similar to the Ecclesiarchy's integration into a sisters army.

1 extra wound is not worth paying that much extra one unit that is so expensive. You are essentially paying the full premium for pysker and doing almost nothing for it.

Well, I noticed that dishing out 1 extra wound per unit can be quite a lot if you have about 10 units.
My Eldar can do generally much less damage with smite.
Moreover, a series of smite has some psychological effect on your opponent. Do not underestimate this.

What other psychic casts are useful? Astral aim, say for a Dread, if necessary, and Sanctuary for a GMNK.
I preferred to stay out of cc with my Strikes and Interceptors. Here Hammerhand would come in.

 wuestenfux wrote:

1 extra wound is not worth paying that much extra one unit that is so expensive. You are essentially paying the full premium for pysker and doing almost nothing for it.

Well, I noticed that dishing out 1 extra wound per unit can be quite a lot if you have about 10 units.
My Eldar can do generally much less damage with smite.
Moreover, a series of smite has some psychological effect on your opponent. Do not underestimate this.

What other psychic casts are useful? Astral aim, say for a Dread, if necessary, and Sanctuary for a GMNK.
I preferred to stay out of cc with my Strikes and Interceptors. Here Hammerhand would come in.

Assuming your army is only minimum strike squads, you could not run 20 units in 2000 point games.

You also will not have all of those units within 1 foot.

Also, you need to cast all of those without perils of the warping, which happens 1/18 times, which with that many casts will most likely happen and cost you wounds too.


Also congratulations, sanctuary made you NDGM good. You also made 1 dreadnought sorta better. Problem is you still have another 1600 points of stuff which is paying for spells that either suck or cannot be used. Astral aim is good, gate is good, sanctuary is good, the rest are bad.