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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Cypher can be your Warlord, but he cannot have a warlord trait.

This is the case currently, they aren't exactly clear in the preview whether his 'Agent of Discord' ability is a Warlord trait, a detachment function, who knows.

If you added a Fallen Sorcerer to the Vanguard, no reason he couldn't be your warlord. Has Imperium keyword too

 bullyboy wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Cypher can be your Warlord, but he cannot have a warlord trait.

This is the case currently, they aren't exactly clear in the preview whether his 'Agent of Discord' ability is a Warlord trait, a detachment function, who knows.

If you added a Fallen Sorcerer to the Vanguard, no reason he couldn't be your warlord. Has Imperium keyword too

Cypher has an ability called "As Ye Sow So Shall Ye Reap" that explicitly states that he cannot be selected as a Warlord for an army? Unless the rule has changed since my index?

Are you sure Fallen Sorcerers also have the IMPERIUM keyword or are we going off Battlescribe?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Cypher can be your Warlord, but he cannot have a warlord trait.

This is the case currently, they aren't exactly clear in the preview whether his 'Agent of Discord' ability is a Warlord trait, a detachment function, who knows.

If you added a Fallen Sorcerer to the Vanguard, no reason he couldn't be your warlord. Has Imperium keyword too

Cypher has an ability called "As Ye Sow So Shall Ye Reap" that explicitly states that he cannot be selected as a Warlord for an army? Unless the rule has changed since my index?

Are you sure Fallen Sorcerers also have the IMPERIUM keyword or are we going off Battlescribe?

I'm going by the CSM codex that is current for the next 2 days. No idea what the new one says.

 Grimtuff wrote:
I'm going by the CSM codex that is current for the next 2 days. No idea what the new one says.

This is probably the most rational approach, every rumor or preview ends up just adding a whole host of other questions that won't be answered until the new book drops.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Cypher can be your Warlord, but he cannot have a warlord trait.

This is the case currently, they aren't exactly clear in the preview whether his 'Agent of Discord' ability is a Warlord trait, a detachment function, who knows.

If you added a Fallen Sorcerer to the Vanguard, no reason he couldn't be your warlord. Has Imperium keyword too

Cypher has an ability called "As Ye Sow So Shall Ye Reap" that explicitly states that he cannot be selected as a Warlord for an army? Unless the rule has changed since my index?

Are you sure Fallen Sorcerers also have the IMPERIUM keyword or are we going off Battlescribe?

There is a screencap leak for vigilus two that gives it to them. It's a special detachment in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Audustum wrote:
If you want to get extra fun you can take a Vanguard with Cypher + Sorcerer and a bunch of Fallen then summon a Daemon Prince to assist your Imperial Army in battle. At least from what we know of the rules so far. The DP won't have the Imperium keyword but he doesn't get summoned until after the battle commences so that's not an issue.

Assuming you can, it's only a Chaos Daemons DP. None of the others have Daemonic Ritual.

Oh yeah, not overpowered, but definitely kind of cool

 Drachii wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I thought you could only bring Assassins if your WL had the Imperium keyword? So this only works if Cypher is your WL, not one of the Sorcerers

But yeah, Assassins in Chaos armies and Daemons in Imperial armies are possible

-

Right, but what's stopping you taking Cypher and 2 Fallen sorcerers, making one of the sorcerers your warlord?

Nothing is "stopping" you from do this. However doing that "stops" your ability to take an Assassin.

You can give Sorcerers the "Fallen" Keyword, but they do not have the IMPERIUM keyword (unless they get that too), which is what the Assassin cares about.

-

They get that too.

What? So you could take Fallen Vanguard detachment with sorcerers and rhinos, then ally with IG so you can pretend they are renegades? And even take Vindicare along. Fallen corruption spreads

Interesting concept

I think people are forgetting that the only people in the Imperium who know the Fallen are not loyalist marines are the Dark Angels' (and Successors') Inner Circle.

Of course you can have an Imperium army that includes IG plus a bunch of Fallen. And of course they can call in an Assassin. Even the Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum doesn't know the Fallen are anything other than a loyal-but-mysterious chapter of Astartes. Why would he object to sending an agent to help them out?

This is exactly why Fallen get the Imperium keyword.

 Duskweaver wrote:
I think people are forgetting that the only people in the Imperium who know the Fallen are not loyalist marines are the Dark Angels' (and Successors') Inner Circle.

Of course you can have an Imperium army that includes IG plus a bunch of Fallen. And of course they can call in an Assassin. Even the Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum doesn't know the Fallen are anything other than a loyal-but-mysterious chapter of Astartes. Why would he object to sending an agent to help them out?

This is exactly why Fallen get the Imperium keyword.

More like dark anges like to think that no-one else knows, plenty of other organisations are aware or have suspicions, they just lack the definitive proof.

That also assumes that the dark angels are loyalists and not doing some double agent playing both sides malarkey.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Drachii wrote:
You can also use the Fallen to summon daemons in an imperium army, so it's not the only related shenanigans.

They errated that out of existence with Cypher ages ago.

Page 121 – Cypher, AbilitiesAdd the following ability:‘No-one’s Puppet: Cypher cannot use the Daemonic Ritual ability, even though he has the Chaos and Character keywords.'

and then they errata'd it RIGHT back in with fallen sorcerors!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have a question about fallen sorcerors actually, as I don't have the rules in front of me - did they add rules that say to change out the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword for FALLEN keyword on the sorceror's psychic powers? or can you not use prescience/diabolical/warptime with fallen sorcerors?

the_scotsman wrote:
I have a question about fallen sorcerors actually, as I don't have the rules in front of me - did they add rules that say to change out the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword for FALLEN keyword on the sorceror's psychic powers? or can you not use prescience/diabolical/warptime with fallen sorcerors.

No, so their buffs will only affect themselves or CSM in other detachments (Cypher and Fallen do not have the Heretic Astartes keyword). Their offensive abilities remain unchanged obviously. It seems unlikely that the Sorcerers themselves will lose the Heretic Astartes keyword, but who knows.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


No, so their buffs will only affect themselves or CSM in other detachments (Cypher and Fallen do not have the Heretic Astartes keyword). Their offensive abilities remain unchanged obviously. It seems unlikely that the Sorcerers themselves will lose the Heretic Astartes keyword, but who knows.

A vector for Death Hex in a Loyalist army is...interesting.

Very interesting.

Sterling191 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


No, so their buffs will only affect themselves or CSM in other detachments (Cypher and Fallen do not have the Heretic Astartes keyword). Their offensive abilities remain unchanged obviously. It seems unlikely that the Sorcerers themselves will lose the Heretic Astartes keyword, but who knows.

A vector for Death Hex in a Loyalist army is...interesting.

Very interesting.

Especially because it's more reliable to use too. Suicide Jump Librarians are about to have a replacement I'm thinking.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


No, so their buffs will only affect themselves or CSM in other detachments (Cypher and Fallen do not have the Heretic Astartes keyword). Their offensive abilities remain unchanged obviously. It seems unlikely that the Sorcerers themselves will lose the Heretic Astartes keyword, but who knows.

A vector for Death Hex in a Loyalist army is...interesting.

Very interesting.

Especially because it's more reliable to use too. Suicide Jump Librarians are about to have a replacement I'm thinking.

Maybe now if imperial units start getting nerfed because of souped-in Chaos Marine sorceror powers, the imperium players of the world will finally realize that whether or not it "makes sense", debuff psychic powers should not provide their benefits to units outside of the codex book.

Hopefully it happens before every single drukhari unit is priced based on theoretical access to Doom.

Also worth noting though that DH is still warp charge 8 and 12" range, and the Sorceror does not have access to a jump pack, TDA or bike, unless the fallen angels detachment calls out <SORCERORS> rather than Sorcerors. Jump Pack sorcerors are a separate index unit entry to regular sorcerors, as are terminator sorcerors and bike sorcerors.

the_scotsman wrote:
Also worth noting though that DH is still warp charge 8 and 12" range, and the Sorceror does not have access to a jump pack, TDA or bike, unless the fallen angels detachment calls out <SORCERORS> rather than Sorcerors. Jump Pack sorcerors are a separate index unit entry to regular sorcerors, as are terminator sorcerors and bike sorcerors.

I believe it's <SORCERERS> in general, which means Terminator Armor, Jump Packs, Bikes and even Discs are on the table. However, you're right, the 12" range is very tricky to use and generally means that your Sorcerer is committing suicide, this is a large part of the reason that Thousand Sons detachments are so attractive, Ahriman on a Disc with Death Hex at 18" and the ability to throw in Cabalistic Focus just takes this tactic from 'I hope this works' to 'It worked, hopefully I didn't over-expose Ahriman in the process.'

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


No, so their buffs will only affect themselves or CSM in other detachments (Cypher and Fallen do not have the Heretic Astartes keyword). Their offensive abilities remain unchanged obviously. It seems unlikely that the Sorcerers themselves will lose the Heretic Astartes keyword, but who knows.

A vector for Death Hex in a Loyalist army is...interesting.

Very interesting.

Especially because it's more reliable to use too. Suicide Jump Librarians are about to have a replacement I'm thinking.

Maybe now if imperial units start getting nerfed because of souped-in Chaos Marine sorceror powers, the imperium players of the world will finally realize that whether or not it "makes sense", debuff psychic powers should not provide their benefits to units outside of the codex book.

Which is an excellent point. I always keep saying units need to be priced on their merits, rather than the potential buffs that already require resources to put into them. That's part of why Cultists being 5 points (already an ongoing discussion) is ridiculous.