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More along the lines of claiming gear the faction wouldn't normally have. I have spacewolves why can't they claim some of the stuff they wouldn't normally have but some other faction does. Like those centurion suits?

The games rules? Or is this a fluff question?

Game rules: because they're not Orkz.

Fluff wise:

First, dogma. Because it's not their way. Marines are very dogmatic - some more than others, and different Marines are dogmatic in different ways. Space Wolves may pride themselves on not being so dogmatic. But they've become dogmatic in their ways.

Second, logistics. An individual Space Wolf group could probably get a Centurion suit up and running, and battle-capable. But, for the same effort, they could do many other things that they believe would have a bigger impact. Factions that *do* use Centurion suits will have logistics chains - unit provisions, replacement/maintenence supplies, people who know how to work with it, etc. So it "costs" a lot less for those factions to deploy them, than a faction that might loot one or two here and there.

Third, drilling/doctrines. Space Wolves are very well trained. That includes drills and doctrines. Like all Marines, they're masters of executing their maneuvers as a team. Part of that is knowing what every other team member is capable of, and what they'll do. Knowing when Bob, the marine next to you, is going to go for cover, when he's going to provide covering fire, and when he's going to advance is critical - so you can provide the appropriate supporting activity. Like, how the game decides only one member of a Tac squad throws a grenade - the other 4 aren't incapable of throwing a grenade, they're suppressing the enemy and covering the guy that is throwing one.

Now, take one of those Battle Brothers, and give him wildly non-standard kit. His Brothers in battle don't know what to expect. They have no experience fighting that way. All their drills and maenuvers just don't work.

They'd do really, really badly.

Now, some factions don't care about these.

Orkz - who needs supply when you can just think it'll work and it works? Who needs tactics beyond `Moar DAKKA` and 'Git ta KRUMPIN'?

Chaos - they've gone off the rails, so dogma is gone. Most warbands either need to scavange anything they want to use or have access to warp smiths who'll make crazy things whether you want them to or not.

Dark Eldar - good luck telling an Archon what to do.

But any Marines, or Craftworlders or Custodes, aren't going to just pick up some random piece of kit and start using it effectively.

Both reasons would be great. But rules why's I suspect that the claiming faction does not have the stats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks

From a fluff point of view, any equipment/relics they uncovered from a friendly Astartes chapter would be returned.

 MannyMcCoconut wrote:
From a fluff point of view, any equipment/relics they uncovered from a friendly Astartes chapter would be returned.

Unless you're a Blood Raven

Sterling191 wrote:

 MannyMcCoconut wrote:
From a fluff point of view, any equipment/relics they uncovered from a friendly Astartes chapter would be returned.

Unless you're a Blood Raven

Damn someone else got there first....

I would actually argue fluff wise part of the limitations for imperial armies boils down to how they maintain/use their tech. Cawl is considered borderline Heretech for changing and innovating new technologies. A lot of how the imperium works is lifted from the writings of Isaac Asimov specifically the foundation series (good read highly recommend). The mechanicum as a whole and tech marines of chapters have no idea how any technology actually works. They are trained to use tech as a sort of religious ceremony.

to a techmarine they may know to change a tire on a bike you must light the incense, apply the sacred oils to the tool and nuts/bolts. turn on the proper music and recite litanies to appeas the machine spirit, remove the bolts, apply the second set of sacred oils to the threads of the wheel studs (antiseize) put on the newly made wheel that has been inspected to insure it is exactly the same as every other imperium bike wheel, apply the sacred spanner set to 36 impirial force units. as it is the sacred number for the task, and then lower the vehicle from the lift reciting litanies and prayers to the machine god. If the Tech Marine does not have the proper incense they would report back that they could not replace the tire until it is received as they have no clue what part of the ritual is not actually necessary.There may be techmarines that know the difference, and certainly the higher levels of the mechanicum have some ideas but most the rank and file members... nope.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I would actually argue fluff wise part of the limitations for imperial armies boils down to how they maintain/use their tech. Cawl is considered borderline Heretech for changing and innovating new technologies. A lot of how the imperium works is lifted from the writings of Isaac Asimov specifically the foundation series (good read highly recommend). The mechanicum as a whole and tech marines of chapters have no idea how any technology actually works. They are trained to use tech as a sort of religious ceremony.

to a techmarine they may know to change a tire on a bike you must light the incense, apply the sacred oils to the tool and nuts/bolts. turn on the proper music and recite litanies to appeas the machine spirit, remove the bolts, apply the second set of sacred oils to the threads of the wheel studs (antiseize) put on the newly made wheel that has been inspected to insure it is exactly the same as every other imperium bike wheel, apply the sacred spanner set to 36 impirial force units. as it is the sacred number for the task, and then lower the vehicle from the lift reciting litanies and prayers to the machine god. If the Tech Marine does not have the proper incense they would report back that they could not replace the tire until it is received as they have no clue what part of the ritual is not actually necessary.There may be techmarines that know the difference, and certainly the higher levels of the mechanicum have some ideas but most the rank and file members... nope.

I'll point out, all that rigmarole sounds ludicrous to us, as 21rst century Earth-dwelling humans, but in our experience daemonic possession of our weapons systems is not a significant danger. In the 40K universe, it is a legit concern.

Bharring wrote:
Space Wolves may pride themselves on not being so dogmatic. But they've become dogmatic in their ways.

You might say they're more 'wolfmatic' than dogmatic....

....No? Ok, I'll leave now

-

 Galef wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Space Wolves may pride themselves on not being so dogmatic. But they've become dogmatic in their ways.

You might say they're more 'wolfmatic' than dogmatic....

....No? Ok, I'll leave now

-

"I cannot use this thing. It doesn't have the word 'wolf' in at least three damn places in it's name..."

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I would actually argue fluff wise part of the limitations for imperial armies boils down to how they maintain/use their tech. Cawl is considered borderline Heretech for changing and innovating new technologies. A lot of how the imperium works is lifted from the writings of Isaac Asimov specifically the foundation series (good read highly recommend). The mechanicum as a whole and tech marines of chapters have no idea how any technology actually works. They are trained to use tech as a sort of religious ceremony.

to a techmarine they may know to change a tire on a bike you must light the incense, apply the sacred oils to the tool and nuts/bolts. turn on the proper music and recite litanies to appeas the machine spirit, remove the bolts, apply the second set of sacred oils to the threads of the wheel studs (antiseize) put on the newly made wheel that has been inspected to insure it is exactly the same as every other imperium bike wheel, apply the sacred spanner set to 36 impirial force units. as it is the sacred number for the task, and then lower the vehicle from the lift reciting litanies and prayers to the machine god. If the Tech Marine does not have the proper incense they would report back that they could not replace the tire until it is received as they have no clue what part of the ritual is not actually necessary.There may be techmarines that know the difference, and certainly the higher levels of the mechanicum have some ideas but most the rank and file members... nope.

I'll point out, all that rigmarole sounds ludicrous to us, as 21rst century Earth-dwelling humans, but in our experience daemonic possession of our weapons systems is not a significant danger. In the 40K universe, it is a legit concern.

very true, though I suppose that is a whole new reason not to use equipment you are not trained in the proper maintenance of. Also Imagine finding a set of centurian armor it looks human but you have no clue how to fix it and for all you know the occupent was killed by nurgle's rot, you don't know hwo to purge the system of contagions and do not want to break any seals for fear of contamination.

Plus the machine spirit will plain just not like you.

Not really a modern concern, but that's the kind of space wizardry they have to deal with.

In any military, logistics is everything. Do you have a supply chain of parts for Centurions? No? Great, then it's a trophy, not wargear. You Techmarine might be able to keep it running for a battle or two, then when leg hydraulic cable #3 becomes worn, the suit can't walk anymore, and he can't source a replacement.

Then there's the matter of superstition and trust. That Centurion suit wasn't built in your chapter's forges - do you trust it? Of course not. Maybe you trust stuff from descendant chapters - they're MOSTLY trustworthy. But the Machine Spirit knows you're not supposed to be using it - or so they believe, and belief becomes reality in 40K all too often to risk it.

If you respect another chapter's equipment, you'll give it back to them. If you don't, why would you USE it? You don't respect them - therefore their equipment is not to be used or trusted.

Note that it's not that Space Marines are completely impractical. If they find some fething powerful weapon from the DAoT that's not AI driven, they'll probably add it to their chapter relics after layering it in chapter symbols and bling, but they'll only use it after a couple centuries of poking at it, just to be safe.

Voss wrote:
Plus the machine spirit will plain just not like you.

Not really a modern concern, but that's the kind of space wizardry they have to deal with.

Clearly you've never met folks who technology simply doesnt like. gak just breaks when they're around. Its a thing.

 MannyMcCoconut wrote:
From a fluff point of view, any equipment/relics they uncovered from a friendly Astartes chapter would be returned.

Flat out wrong half our fekkeing fleet we stole from the imperial navy.

 John Prins wrote:
In any military, logistics is everything. Do you have a supply chain of parts for Centurions? No? Great, then it's a trophy, not wargear. You Techmarine might be able to keep it running for a battle or two, then when leg hydraulic cable #3 becomes worn, the suit can't walk anymore, and he can't source a replacement.

Not just the logistics, but they might not use it out of doctrine. These are tight units with specific ways of handling tactical situations, and a Centurion suit would run entirely counter to that. All that squad training in power armor goes out the window, and their command structure has to figure out how to deploy something that they've never used before.

I could imagine they might take one out for a very specific task. . . then again, it might just be more valuable as an item to trade to another chapter for favor.

 MannyMcCoconut wrote:
From a fluff point of view, any equipment/relics they uncovered from a friendly Astartes chapter would be returned.

That's not always true. The Space Wolves found an unexploded stasis bomb the Dark Angels used and rather than return it they just kept it to try and fix it. The thing ended up in Lukas's chest.

They're probably just waiting to return it until after the DAs are out of the closet.

pm713 wrote:

 MannyMcCoconut wrote:
From a fluff point of view, any equipment/relics they uncovered from a friendly Astartes chapter would be returned.

That's not always true. The Space Wolves found an unexploded stasis bomb the Dark Angels used and rather than return it they just kept it to try and fix it. The thing ended up in Lukas's chest.

It is surprising that the Space wolves would use the equipment of Heretics.

In one of the Ultramarines books, two Ultramarines find themselves without armor and then find a shipment of unused armor from a successor chapter. They end up taking two suits, painting it all blue except for the pauldron, because they want to honor their chapter, but they also want to honor the armor's machine spirit. They're worried that if they paint the whole thing blue that the armor won't fully cooperate. There is a ton of superstition.

There's another story in, I think, one of the Gaunt books where they need to blow open a door, but the techpriest doesn't have the correct incense to activate the charges. The guy in charges just tells him to press the dang button and back up. So, superstition only goes so far.

Also, there's a world of difference between knowing how to use tech and really understanding why tech works the way it does. I know a ton of people who own a car, have no real idea how the engine works, but KNOW, deep in their hearts, that the car performs better if they're kind to it. My take is that Marines have that mentality times 100.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I would actually argue fluff wise part of the limitations for imperial armies boils down to how they maintain/use their tech. Cawl is considered borderline Heretech for changing and innovating new technologies. A lot of how the imperium works is lifted from the writings of Isaac Asimov specifically the foundation series (good read highly recommend). The mechanicum as a whole and tech marines of chapters have no idea how any technology actually works. They are trained to use tech as a sort of religious ceremony.

to a techmarine they may know to change a tire on a bike you must light the incense, apply the sacred oils to the tool and nuts/bolts. turn on the proper music and recite litanies to appeas the machine spirit, remove the bolts, apply the second set of sacred oils to the threads of the wheel studs (antiseize) put on the newly made wheel that has been inspected to insure it is exactly the same as every other imperium bike wheel, apply the sacred spanner set to 36 impirial force units. as it is the sacred number for the task, and then lower the vehicle from the lift reciting litanies and prayers to the machine god. If the Tech Marine does not have the proper incense they would report back that they could not replace the tire until it is received as they have no clue what part of the ritual is not actually necessary.There may be techmarines that know the difference, and certainly the higher levels of the mechanicum have some ideas but most the rank and file members... nope.

I'll point out, all that rigmarole sounds ludicrous to us, as 21rst century Earth-dwelling humans, but in our experience daemonic possession of our weapons systems is not a significant danger. In the 40K universe, it is a legit concern.

Lest that changed wheel roll around and make people explode with his mind.

This is an actual movie for the record. Rubber. I highly recommend it.

"Also, there's a world of difference between knowing how to use tech and really understanding why tech works the way it does. I know a ton of people who own a car, have no real idea how the engine works, but KNOW, deep in their hearts, that the car performs better if they're kind to it. My take is that Marines have that mentality times 100."
Well, in a universe with Scrapcode, Men of Iron, possessed machines, AIs, Machine Spirits, and the Void Dragon, it's not really superstition.

Bharring wrote:
"Also, there's a world of difference between knowing how to use tech and really understanding why tech works the way it does. I know a ton of people who own a car, have no real idea how the engine works, but KNOW, deep in their hearts, that the car performs better if they're kind to it. My take is that Marines have that mentality times 100."
Well, in a universe with Scrapcode, Men of Iron, possessed machines, AIs, Machine Spirits, and the Void Dragon, it's not really superstition.

It really is. Scrapcode is basically a virus, Men of Iron are just AI that decided to kill all humans, Machine Spirits might just be 40k Siri and the Void Dragon is safe inside Pokeballs.

I am glad daemon possession, scrapcode, malicious AI, etc. was being brought up. A lot of 40k players forget about that kinda of stuff and like to go 'hurr-de-durr' stupid Mechanius praying to technology like a bunch of primitives. Which is of course a nod to The Foundation series of novels (I should read more than the first one). At the same time, not doing those rituals could mean disaster.

A lazy tech priest could, and over 10,000 years probably has, 'pencil-whip' the rituals a thousand times without incident on some boltgun. But that 1001st time some warp entity has come fused itself with it since the rituals weren't being performed correctly. If the warp thing is looking for a quick, cheap thrill maybe it just blows up all the bolts at the same time killing the wielder and maybe injuring a few standing next to them.

If it is more patient, maybe it start whispering to the wielder starting them on the path of Chaos. As the wielder listens and heeds these whispers they find themselves more accurate with the boltgun. If they try and fight it, the weapon starts to misfire or have a seemingly crooked sight that just would stay...unless they again listen. Before too long, there is a new cultist of Chaos. Such is its insidious nature.