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 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You can paint your dudes as 100% Fluff Accurate Blood Angels and use Ultramarine rules if you so desire for all the rules care. All the rules care about is you use the correct model to represent the correct datasheet. Paint does not affect rules. Anyone saying otherwise is simply incorrect.

A Blood Angel isn't an Ultramarine, anymore than an Imperial Guardsman or Necron is. It's cheating.

Are you saying that if one were to put down bright blue Ultramarine style Thunderwolf Cavalry and played them as Space Wolves it would be cheating?

Whilst many of the core models within the Space Marine range are visually identical models (heck GW doesn't even repaint them per chapter- most chapters have ultramarine blue models shown off in their official GW store page - heck all the Primaris are pretty much painted ultramarine in colour); each Chapter has its own unique models and details. Those identify the army more than the paint scheme.

Can Ultramarines take TWC?

BCB's "100% Fluff Accurate Blood Angels" is going to match to every possible detail, including Chapter Heraldry, Iconography and bitz. That goes far above and beyond merely being painted red. At that level of detail, it's misdirection to say that they're Ultramarines, and no opponent should have to consciously make a switch away from what they clearly see.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Can Ultramarines take TWC?

BCB's "100% Fluff Accurate Blood Angels" is going to match to every possible detail, including Chapter Heraldry, Iconography and bitz. That goes far above and beyond merely being painted red. At that level of detail, it's misdirection to say that they're Ultramarines, and no opponent should have to consciously make a switch away from what they clearly see.

That's fine as a personal opinion, but the rules categorically disagree with you.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Don't paint your army as a known chapter.

If you do paint as a known chapter, keep a card to one side saying which chapter your are using them as.

If you want rules flexibility, play grey marines. That's what Jervis did with his Relictors.

If you paint as a known Chapter that has Chapter-specific rules, the I will expect it to be played as such if cash prizes are on the line. Any variance from that in tournament play is cheating, card or not. Same as playing a Heavy Bolter as a LascannonThe model isn't playing the way that it looks. Same as fielding SM models as "Necrons", or IG models as Sisters. To that end, it is absolutely correct to push for maximum penalties when people do this.

So, if I have blue marines, but I'm playing White Scars, I hand you a list at the start of the game that has "White Scars Battalion" at the very top in big, bold letters (and later down, say, "White Scars Outrider" in similar font), I say at the start of the game (say you're playing Raven Guard) "Oh sweet! White Scars and Ravenguard have their rivalry. That makes this game even cooler!" and I'm running a bike-heavy list...

You're saying that, with all that, I am the one to blame if you think I'm running Ultramarines?

JohnHwangDD, was this missed? It was not addressed.

Moriarty wrote:
Umm. Think you miss his point. He does stress competition games, with cash prizes? I can see all sorts of possibilities for cheating (if one were so inclined) with a ‘this is a red rules marine, painted blue’ one game and ‘this is a green rules marine, painted blue’ the next. The ‘just’ buy another army suggestion raised a giggle, though.

What colour your Marines are means little to me - sub chapters, and all that. But fielding your blue Marines as ‘whatever is today’s bestest’ on an ongoing basis leaves a bad taste. Makes me think you are only interested in the game if you can win?

There is nothing stopping every marine player from painting their dudes rainbow and doing that same bs game to game. What color the marines are doesn't mean anything. The list you submit to the tourney organizer does. Being pissy because your orange and green marines have blue marine rules when you have a blue marine list is complete nonsense. Being pissy because someone changes their rules each match is cheating and equally possible no matter what paint job you give them.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Bharring wrote:
In the BA vs UM situation, BA Marines have different dataslates than UM marines.

That said, UM vs RG would work, technically. Same dataslates.

Do do BA and UM Rhinos, do people get angry when you run Rhinos as BA?

Not at all.

Merely pointing out that they are *technically* a different *dataslate*. So, in theory, if you bought a BA Tac squad and modelled/painted it as a UM Tac squad, you're technically not "use[ing] the correct model to represent the correct datasheet".

But I agree that you can build a BA army using UM rules (or visa-versa). Because nobody reasonable is going to have a problem with that - even if that technical rule is not satisfied.

Bottom line? You can play ultra marines as imperial fists and no one can say anything. Whether they like it or not. They may act like a food with their non necron orks that don’t also play as tyranids, and give you a zero but you just give them a zero right back. “Buh, buh, my army is painted to zeh fluffers” bruh idc. You gave me a zero, here is a full list of zeros to bring that score down. No cash prize for you bruh

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Don't paint your army as a known chapter.

If you do paint as a known chapter, keep a card to one side saying which chapter your are using them as.

If you want rules flexibility, play grey marines. That's what Jervis did with his Relictors.

If you paint as a known Chapter that has Chapter-specific rules, the I will expect it to be played as such if cash prizes are on the line. Any variance from that in tournament play is cheating, card or not. Same as playing a Heavy Bolter as a LascannonThe model isn't playing the way that it looks. Same as fielding SM models as "Necrons", or IG models as Sisters. To that end, it is absolutely correct to push for maximum penalties when people do this.

So, if I have blue marines, but I'm playing White Scars,

You're saying that, with all that, I am the one to blame if you think I'm running Ultramarines?

JohnHwangDD, was this missed? It was not addressed.

I ignored it, as I thought it was a poorly posed question.

If you merely have blue marines that you want to play as White Scars, fine.

If you have what were clearly painted as Ultramarines with the Ultramarine Chapter badge and heraldry and iconography and bitz on every model, 100% Codex accurate, then you are 100% the one to blame if I think that you're playing the Ultramarines that they absoltutely, 100% look like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Can Ultramarines take TWC?

BCB's "100% Fluff Accurate Blood Angels" is going to match to every possible detail, including Chapter Heraldry, Iconography and bitz. That goes far above and beyond merely being painted red. At that level of detail, it's misdirection to say that they're Ultramarines, and no opponent should have to consciously make a switch away from what they clearly see.

That's fine as a personal opinion, but the rules categorically disagree with you.

The GW Tournament Rules back me up 100%.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Don't paint your army as a known chapter.

If you do paint as a known chapter, keep a card to one side saying which chapter your are using them as.

If you want rules flexibility, play grey marines. That's what Jervis did with his Relictors.

If you paint as a known Chapter that has Chapter-specific rules, the I will expect it to be played as such if cash prizes are on the line. Any variance from that in tournament play is cheating, card or not. Same as playing a Heavy Bolter as a LascannonThe model isn't playing the way that it looks. Same as fielding SM models as "Necrons", or IG models as Sisters. To that end, it is absolutely correct to push for maximum penalties when people do this.

So, if I have blue marines, but I'm playing White Scars,

You're saying that, with all that, I am the one to blame if you think I'm running Ultramarines?

JohnHwangDD, was this missed? It was not addressed.

I ignored it, as I thought it was a poorly posed question.

If you merely have blue marines that you want to play as White Scars, fine.

If you have what were clearly painted as Ultramarines with the Ultramarine Chapter badge and heraldry and iconography and bitz on every model, 100% Codex accurate, then you are 100% the one to blame if I think that you're playing the Ultramarines that they absoltutely, 100% look like.

So you're advocating assuming your opponent is too dumb to remember you saying "These blue marines are White Scars" and is incapable of checking the list provided?

Not to mention...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
instead of using the crimson fists rules I run my marines with the Deathwatch codex.
I just use Deathwatch rules as they are better.

I'm also painting up my iron warriors but will be running them as black legion so I can take abbadon (in iron warriors colours of course.

In competition with cash value prizes on the line, I would zero you out for not playing a WYSIWYG army.

If it looks like Crimson Fists, it needs to play as Crimson Fists.

If it looks like Iron Warriors, it needs to play as Iron Warriors.

If you don't like the rules, don't paint an army to match.

Or just buy another army.

You never said you'd zero someone out for having wrong iconography, detailing, and paint scheme. Just the paint scheme.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The GW Tournament Rules back me up 100%.

You literally just proved my point. GW had to house rule it!

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Don't paint your army as a known chapter.

If you do paint as a known chapter, keep a card to one side saying which chapter your are using them as.

If you want rules flexibility, play grey marines. That's what Jervis did with his Relictors.

If you paint as a known Chapter that has Chapter-specific rules, the I will expect it to be played as such if cash prizes are on the line. Any variance from that in tournament play is cheating, card or not. Same as playing a Heavy Bolter as a LascannonThe model isn't playing the way that it looks. Same as fielding SM models as "Necrons", or IG models as Sisters. To that end, it is absolutely correct to push for maximum penalties when people do this.

So, if I have blue marines, but I'm playing White Scars,

You're saying that, with all that, I am the one to blame if you think I'm running Ultramarines?

JohnHwangDD, was this missed? It was not addressed.

I ignored it, as I thought it was a poorly posed question.

If you merely have blue marines that you want to play as White Scars, fine.

If you have what were clearly painted as Ultramarines with the Ultramarine Chapter badge and heraldry and iconography and bitz on every model, 100% Codex accurate, then you are 100% the one to blame if I think that you're playing the Ultramarines that they absoltutely, 100% look like.

So you're advocating assuming your opponent is too dumb to remember you saying "These blue marines are White Scars" and is incapable of checking the list provided?

Not to mention...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
instead of using the crimson fists rules I run my marines with the Deathwatch codex.
I just use Deathwatch rules as they are better.

I'm also painting up my iron warriors but will be running them as black legion so I can take abbadon (in iron warriors colours of course.

In competition with cash value prizes on the line, I would zero you out for not playing a WYSIWYG army.

If it looks like Crimson Fists, it needs to play as Crimson Fists.

If it looks like Iron Warriors, it needs to play as Iron Warriors.

If you don't like the rules, don't paint an army to match.

Or just buy another army.

You never said you'd zero someone out for having wrong iconography, detailing, and paint scheme. Just the paint scheme.

I would never make the request of my opponent in the first place. I wouldn't field a army painted up as a completely different army. If I am playing White Scars, I'm not bringing what look to be Ultramarines or Blood Angels to the tabletop.

Let's be perfectly clear that there is an official "paint scheme" that is clearly detailed to a very high degree of specificity in the Codex, that Ultramarines are more than merely "blue". As above, I have no issue with a generic blue army played as White Scars. I have a big problem with an army wearing the official Codex Ultramarines paint scheme as being played as anything but. For you to try and confuse the issue is bad faith argument on your part.

At what point is the line drawn, then?

But why aren’t you playing orks as necrons.. I think it is way more aesthetically pleasing and will deduct points for failure to do so in a cash prize tournament. Which I have every right to do, per rules. I love how you ignore that fact

The line for him is drawn at specific bits with heraldry and/or decals/painted symbols.

It doesn't matter how frivolous they are. The only thing that matters apparently is that a narrative element isn't broken at a none narrative event.

Basically, it's a load of crap.

I always tell them I'm running Deathwatch and everything if exactly as it is on the army list I just prefer the Deathwatch codex to the marine one personally. I lose more than I win but think the specialisation of the death watch book just works better for marines and especially Primaris marines which is what mine are.

One of the big problems I have never encountered myself (not a tournament player), is that a lot is left to individual tournament organizers to decide.
GW has made a set of tournament rules. Non-sanctioned tournaments (still with prizes and what not) have their specific rules. People sometimes play for years using their own house rules (especially about proxies, model colour, and what not.

Like JohnHwangDD, when I see blue Space Marines with white Omegas on their shoulder pads, it isn't strange to assume they are Ultramarines.
However, if my opponent hands me a list that indicates they are Space Wolves instead (and the models have the appropriate wargear) I would think the colour doesn't matter, as the opponent informed me beforehand. Neither model colour, nor WYSIWYG, are rules found in the big rulebook as golden rules of the RAW game. It is sometimes confusing, as one tournament organizer mentions WYSIWYG as a rule for his tournament, and the other TO is a stickler for fluff, so he wouldn't allow Space Wolves models to proxy for Ultramarines or vice versa. Or even Dark Angels tacticals for Ultramarine Tacticals when the wargear loadout is accurate to the appropriate datasheet..

Like I mentioned in one of my first posts in this thread, there are a lot of people well versed in the lore of this game. They are sticklers for fluff. Blood Angels chapter Space Marines are red. Period. You want white Blood Angels? Sure. You have the freedom to paint them white. Call them the "White BLoodcell Marines" and make them a successor Chapter of the Blood Angels for all I care. Ork-Blood Angels (using Blood Angels rules, maybe even actual models) can be green. I think WYSIWYG wargear loadout, to prevent confusion, is more important than actual model colour even if it isn't an official rule. In fact, model colour and the freedom to make your own Successor chapters (or hordes, or throngs, or warbands, or warhosts, or whatever) is what makes this game so unique, what can make each army unique. I have my Tyranid army painted up in a matt grey and shiney black colour scheme, unlike any of the examples in the Tyranid codex. No one ever says to me: "you painted them as Behemoth, so you must use Behemoth rules or I get confused". I often use Leviathan rules for them (and actually called them LV-426 , or Leviathan Variant no. 426, Nocturnal strain), but I have the freedom to also use Jormungandr rules, or Behemoth, or Kraken, as they aren't recognizable as any of those, and they may be a variant strain of any of those. As long as the opponent knows which rules I use, there's no harm done, and I can experiment. with army composition and play style, and such. I wouldn;'t easily field a unit of Tyranid Warriors and call them Tyranid Raveners, however. As I said, I think WYSIWYG, though not an officlal rule, is important. If I want to experiment with a unit that I don't have the models for (yet), I would discuss any proxies with my opponent even before starting to build my army list.

They are my opponents models and they can paint them (or not) how they want, and I greatly appreciate painted models over bare plastic/metal/resin.

As the same time, there is a hint of using different sub-faction rules making that player seem like a fair weather fan of their faction. There are certainly reasons why a player would choose to use sub-faction rules outside the color they painted their models not tied directly to some sort of rules advantage. But the insinuation is there, especially with marines where the legion/chapters are pretty well know to work a certain way by even the most casual of 40k fan.

I have a Black Legion 40k army, and I intend to always run them as Black Legion. Up until recently (with this latest CSM release), I never really made use of any of specific rules for them. In fact, their legion trait actually made Kill Team harder on me as I was so used to the +1 Leadership which never really mattered much in full 40k, but turned out to be important in Kill Team.

 JNAProductions wrote:
At what point is the line drawn, then?

For me, it's when you add Chapter-specific iconograpy and models that it becomes "must play as" in a Tournament situation.

Blue Scars? No problem! They're just blue, without any of the Codex Ultramarine Chapter / Company / Squad / Veteran markings, so that's fine. No problem.

It's when I can instantly, clearly tell that this is Codex Ultramarines Chapter 4th Company, 2nd Squad led by a Veteran Sergeant based on the paint job and markings, then that is what I'm going to expect it to play as under Tournament conditions.

If it's not Tournament play, I don't really care.

My counts as Deathwatch army so far.

I'm so glad I don't do tournaments.

I've met tournament players who weren't total wobble-bottoms in this hobby, but every total wobble-bottom I've ever met in this hobby has been a tournament player

All the tournament players I’ve played against have been fine - I always learn something, and no bottoms have wobbled at all. Maybe because I never get to the stratosphere tables, I don’t know.

The nearest I have come is an opponent asking if my horde was going to be ‘slow - played’. I just offered to let _him_ help move the little devils, if he was worried.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
At what point is the line drawn, then?

For me, it's when you add Chapter-specific iconograpy and models that it becomes "must play as" in a Tournament situation.

Blue Scars? No problem! They're just blue, without any of the Codex Ultramarine Chapter / Company / Squad / Veteran markings, so that's fine. No problem.

It's when I can instantly, clearly tell that this is Codex Ultramarines Chapter 4th Company, 2nd Squad led by a Veteran Sergeant based on the paint job and markings, then that is what I'm going to expect it to play as under Tournament conditions.

If it's not Tournament play, I don't really care.

In just about any tournament I've been to (outside of GW where they have your house rule, so everyone would be complying anyway) I think you'd get 0'd for sportsmanship for this kind of attitude and rightfully so. Under the vast majority of tournament conditions, these expectations of the colour matching the rules just don't exist, as far as I can tell - being a regular tournament player who follows the ones I don't play in. I don't play with 'confusing' models, because all my models are purple eldar of various factions and that isn't anyone's colours, but I regularly play against armies with different chapter tactics to their paint scheme and I really don't see any problem with it in a tournament setting as they are obviously making the choice for rules reasons (and that is the 'correct' thing to do in a tournament). For casual pick up games, I don't care either, the only place I think I would is a narrative campaign and for that, I'd offer to supply the models if it bothered me that much.

Your attitude comes off as simply trying to find a reason to dock someone sportsmanship/painting votes to 'game' the tournament, I'm not saying that is your motivation, just what it looks like and that strikes me as incredibly rude. I suppose this is because I doubt you both have the mental capacity to play in a tournament, yet lack the ability to remember "This is a <CHAPTER> list", so claiming it's confusing is untrue. Claiming its cheating is also just flat wrong unless you are at a tournament that has that rule, in which case call a judge, don't try to enforce the rule yourself.

Drager wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
At what point is the line drawn, then?

For me, it's when you add Chapter-specific iconograpy and models that it becomes "must play as" in a Tournament situation.

Blue Scars? No problem! They're just blue, without any of the Codex Ultramarine Chapter / Company / Squad / Veteran markings, so that's fine. No problem.

It's when I can instantly, clearly tell that this is Codex Ultramarines Chapter 4th Company, 2nd Squad led by a Veteran Sergeant based on the paint job and markings, then that is what I'm going to expect it to play as under Tournament conditions.

If it's not Tournament play, I don't really care.

In just about any tournament I've been to (outside of GW where they have your house rule, so everyone would be complying anyway) I think you'd get 0'd for sportsmanship for this kind of attitude and rightfully so. Under the vast majority of tournament conditions, these expectations of the colour matching the rules just don't exist, as far as I can tell - being a regular tournament player who follows the ones I don't play in. I don't play with 'confusing' models, because all my models are purple eldar of various factions and that isn't anyone's colours, but I regularly play against armies with different chapter tactics to their paint scheme and I really don't see any problem with it in a tournament setting as they are obviously making the choice for rules reasons (and that is the 'correct' thing to do in a tournament). For casual pick up games, I don't care either, the only place I think I would is a narrative campaign and for that, I'd offer to supply the models if it bothered me that much.

Your attitude comes off as simply trying to find a reason to dock someone sportsmanship/painting votes to 'game' the tournament, I'm not saying that is your motivation, just what it looks like and that strikes me as incredibly rude. I suppose this is because I doubt you both have the mental capacity to play in a tournament, yet lack the ability to remember "This is a <CHAPTER> list", so claiming it's confusing is untrue. Claiming its cheating is also just flat wrong unless you are at a tournament that has that rule, in which case call a judge, don't try to enforce the rule yourself.

On the contrary, the issue is that you fail to understand the entire point of WYSIWYG and Tournament play. In Tournament play, 100% of the onus is on the player to ensure that the army that they field presents no confusion to the opponent. There should be ZERO burden on the opponent to remember that X is actually Y. It is the ultimate in toolbaggishness to require your opponent to remember that WYSI *not* WYG. Any other stance is incompatible with good sportsmanship and good play in a competitive environment. To present an army that looks exactly like Ultramarines but actually plays as something else (Chaos Renegades, to bring the point home) is confusing to the opponent. That *is* cheating, simple is that.

To say that I'm looking for reasons to dock sports is wrong. I'm simply demanding that my opponent play what they show. Standard WYSIWYG, as per the GW Tournament Rules referenced in the other thread. If they show something that is clearly Ultramarines, I'm going to demand that they play as Ultramarines, not Chaos Renegades - that's what GW themselves require. Failure to follow those rules *is* cheating, and it's nonsense that you would defend that.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


In Tournament play, 100% of the onus is on the player to ensure that they follow the rules set forth by the tournament organizer, whatever standards they may be.

Fixed.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
per the GW Tournament Rules

Cool, good for GW tournaments.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
At what point is the line drawn, then?

For me, it's when you add Chapter-specific iconograpy and models that it becomes "must play as" in a Tournament situation.

Blue Scars? No problem! They're just blue, without any of the Codex Ultramarine Chapter / Company / Squad / Veteran markings, so that's fine. No problem.

It's when I can instantly, clearly tell that this is Codex Ultramarines Chapter 4th Company, 2nd Squad led by a Veteran Sergeant based on the paint job and markings, then that is what I'm going to expect it to play as under Tournament conditions.

If it's not Tournament play, I don't really care.

My custom chapter coincidentally has the exact same heraldry as the Blood Angels. They operate at the edge of the Galaxy and have never even heard of the Blood Angels.

Prove me wrong.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
At what point is the line drawn, then?

For me, it's when you add Chapter-specific iconograpy and models that it becomes "must play as" in a Tournament situation.

Blue Scars? No problem! They're just blue, without any of the Codex Ultramarine Chapter / Company / Squad / Veteran markings, so that's fine. No problem.

It's when I can instantly, clearly tell that this is Codex Ultramarines Chapter 4th Company, 2nd Squad led by a Veteran Sergeant based on the paint job and markings, then that is what I'm going to expect it to play as under Tournament conditions.

If it's not Tournament play, I don't really care.

My custom chapter coincidentally has the exact same heraldry as the Blood Angels. They operate at the edge of the Galaxy and have never even heard of the Blood Angels.

Prove me wrong.

You operate at the edge of the Galaxy, whereas the BA do not. As such, your heraldry may look identical to the BA in every way, and there may be no way to differentiate between the two, but each piece of heraldry can only be in one place at once. Ergo, your heraldry is not the exact same, despite having no difference.

Sure, it's super pedantic. But I figure that's just your style of argument.

Bharring wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
At what point is the line drawn, then?

For me, it's when you add Chapter-specific iconograpy and models that it becomes "must play as" in a Tournament situation.

Blue Scars? No problem! They're just blue, without any of the Codex Ultramarine Chapter / Company / Squad / Veteran markings, so that's fine. No problem.

It's when I can instantly, clearly tell that this is Codex Ultramarines Chapter 4th Company, 2nd Squad led by a Veteran Sergeant based on the paint job and markings, then that is what I'm going to expect it to play as under Tournament conditions.

If it's not Tournament play, I don't really care.

My custom chapter coincidentally has the exact same heraldry as the Blood Angels. They operate at the edge of the Galaxy and have never even heard of the Blood Angels.

Prove me wrong.

You operate at the edge of the Galaxy, whereas the BA do not. As such, your heraldry may look identical to the BA in every way, and there may be no way to differentiate between the two, but each piece of heraldry can only be in one place at once. Ergo, your heraldry is not the exact same, despite having no difference.

Sure, it's super pedantic. But I figure that's just your style of argument.

Actually my chapter are the warp echos of the Blood Angels, wibblywobblywarpshenanigans say so. Also my wibblywobblywarpshenanigans cause my Chapters history to change on a daily basis.

Also I said the exact same heraldry (thus implying the same STYLE of heraldry), not the same actual constituent atoms. English is vague like that.

Welp, I look forward to seeing reports of armies of Renegade Chaos Marines painted and modeled exactly as loyalist Ultramarines in the next tournament. That should be fun.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
At what point is the line drawn, then?

For me, it's when you add Chapter-specific iconograpy and models that it becomes "must play as" in a Tournament situation.

Blue Scars? No problem! They're just blue, without any of the Codex Ultramarine Chapter / Company / Squad / Veteran markings, so that's fine. No problem.

It's when I can instantly, clearly tell that this is Codex Ultramarines Chapter 4th Company, 2nd Squad led by a Veteran Sergeant based on the paint job and markings, then that is what I'm going to expect it to play as under Tournament conditions.

If it's not Tournament play, I don't really care.

My custom chapter coincidentally has the exact same heraldry as the Blood Angels. They operate at the edge of the Galaxy and have never even heard of the Blood Angels.

Prove me wrong.

You operate at the edge of the Galaxy, whereas the BA do not. As such, your heraldry may look identical to the BA in every way, and there may be no way to differentiate between the two, but each piece of heraldry can only be in one place at once. Ergo, your heraldry is not the exact same, despite having no difference.

Sure, it's super pedantic. But I figure that's just your style of argument.

Actually my chapter are the warp echos of the Blood Angels, wibblywobblywarpshenanigans say so. Also my wibblywobblywarpshenanigans cause my Chapters history to change on a daily basis.

Also I said the exact same heraldry (thus implying the same STYLE of heraldry), not the same actual constituent atoms. English is vague like that.

As intended, it's clear you meant the same stile. As written, it's clear it says the same - thus same instance. So a PAI vs PAW issue.

That said, you've shown why my rebuttal is not solid. Somehow, you have the original BA heraldry at the same time due to warp shenanigans. Well played. I concede that point.

Is this just a marine specific issue that people have? All of the factions have various sub factions nowadays with official paint schemes, but generally no one gives a hoot. For Tyranids there is no iconography to distinguish the hive fleets other than color, and people seem to have a larger issue with iconography than choice of color scheme. So with Tyranids, its a non issue. Most Eldar players use Alaitoc this edition because the -1 to hit is so good, regardless of paint scheme. Where do the 'chapter purists' come down on that? Are black Eldar using Alaitoc rules instead of Ulthwe fine, unless they also have Ulthwe transfers on them? What about when you throw Ynnari into the mix? According to the fluff they should be represented with crimson in some fashion in addition to their craftworld color scheme...

Personally, I have no issue with a player of one chapter using rules of a different chapter so long as they are upfront about it. To me a marine is a marine is a marine... and honestly, I can hardly tell the difference between a regular marine and a primaris. They all kinda look the same to me... obviously I'm not a marine player! I feel like to do so is penalizing people for having a nicely modeled army from an official chapter. If you take this stance, isn't it purely better to do custom chapters/craftworlds/etc? So you can always adapt to the changing rules?