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Here I wanted to discuss in a constructive manner how to git gud against summoning spam, since I read and am told pretty much daily that summon spam is not that big of a deal and there are many ways to deal with it (though the people leaving the comments pretty much never explain that or go into depth and I can't find any battle reports explaining this)

In my local region, summon spam armies absolutely wreck casual armies that are neither spamming mortal wounds, nor spamming summoning themselves. Pretty much 100% of the time. Those same people getting wrekt turn around and wrek other people when they themselves are using summon spam armies, so I have a strong feeling its not just that players playing casual armies are bad players.

So Seraphon summoning won the Adepticon world championship 2019. Player played extraordinarily well, and deserved his win. However, I have counted probably a dozen responses in the past few days that say "yeah but summon spam seraphon is still a pretty weak army" or something to that regard.

I can understand how to counter summon spam armies, with either spamming mortal wounds (where mortal wounds are a way to quickly remove models, and spam summoning is how you quickly add models, it becomes a zero-sum game and the two can counter each other) or by spamming summoning myself to the same level.

What I cannot understand is how to properly counter a spam summoning army with an army that is neither spewing mortal wounds nor spamming summoning myself.

I'd like to have that discussion here. How would one go about setting up a fun game where they aren't predetermined to lose from turn 1 in this situation? I know daughters of khaine is going to be quickly injected into this discussion since it does neither, so a good illumination on why that is would also be great for context.

I really wish I would have been able to play against Seraphon Sam. He seemed really nice, and his army was pretty colors. My Legion of Azgorh would have had a fun time blasting the big dinos with magma cannons and mulching the tiny skinks with the skullcracker engines.

To counter summoning it seems like shooty units would be key, and shooty mobs to occupy objectives while not having to move off and let the summoned units come in to control them. I don't think mortal wound generation is super necessary to counter the summoning army, though it couldn't hurt!

Question is what thingies are summoning the units? Guess we have to target those first. So like in Beasts of Chaos, if there's a dude by the herdstone sacrificing for more Primordial Call points gotta nuke that one first?

Vs Blades of Khorne summoning, not finishing off units might work to prevent more Blood Tithes.

Vs Tzeentch Summoning an anti-sorcerer tactic is best, as they require many many spells to go off to summon anything.

Vs Slaanesh Summoning, kill their heroes quickly making sure to finish them off (they like the pain of surviving multiple wounds).

Vs Sylvaneth….?

So my anti-summoning tactical decision is to use Skaventide (I am workign on Clans Eshin) to assassinate heroes and occupy objectives whilst launching loads of ninja stars into everyone, and mortal wound spewing with vermintide and the lightning vortex. Take really big units to make them hard to remove.

I believe that at the current state of AOS, it's an exercise in futility to take an unoptimized list against an optimized, tournament caliber list. Just how it is right now.

Auticus, our second last line there sort of brings of a belief I have regarding Optimization in AoS. There are three thematic
ways to optimize your army.

Mortal Wound Spam
Summoning Spam
Raw Combat Stat.

Now, I won't claim to know everything about the AoS Tournament scene, but I've got experience in 40k and WarmaHordes competitive.

To me, it seems that a handful of the top-tier(ish) armies fall in to the third category of being able to optimize. DoK, Idoneth, Shootcast builds, those don't rely entirely upon mortal wounds, nor do they have reliable* summoning. Maybe not stomping tournaments right now, but they're doing well enough.

Edit: Malathrim, Sylvaneth summoning is tied to it's characters. Alarielle can summon a single time, but it's powerful and can't be unbound, while Branchwraiths can only summon units of 10 Dryads per hero phase, needing to get a spell off to do it. And then, on top of that, the summoned Dryads must be placed within a Sylvaneth Wyldwood.

Why don't we put this discussion in the balancing thread?

Well this is more of a tactical discussion, based on how the rule are. Not a discussion on how we would adjust the rules to better balance the game.

Wait, how is it summon spam? No Balewind, no Cogs, only 1 Engine of the Gods, not Kroak... this is far from "summon spam". In fact, this is like the minimum of summoning, it's like calling a Nurgle player who brings more than one Tree "summon spam".

That said, if you're asking how to counter summoning, just kill the Slann. In fact, most Summoning in the game just comes down to "kill Heroes". Shooting, Magic, fast flyers, etc, many armies (but not all, to be fair), have ways to counter it, and many armies that can't kill the Hero fast enough have the bodies to cover objectives so Summoning is not that effective.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
Well this is more of a tactical discussion, based on how the rule are. Not a discussion on how we would adjust the rules to better balance the game.

Yep this is more of a constructive discussion on how best to counter since the best we got in the balance thread was git gud.

So now we have gotten to the very obvious kill the heroes. So more in depth - when the hero is covered in layers of their own troops and / or buried in the corner behind some terrain to prevent you from just being able to walk up and kill them or target them with everything on the table that shoots, what are some things that you all have been doing?

I've been pointing Warp Lightning Cannons at heroes to kill them, as of late. But, that falls under Mortal Wound spam then.

If I go up against a properly tuned Seraphon list I simply accept that I need a round 1-2 double (if the dice are going well maybe a 2-3 double) or I will lose. I save my tactical list building for things I can reasonably counter.


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Requizen wrote:
Wait, how is it summon spam? No Balewind, no Cogs, only 1 Engine of the Gods, not Kroak... this is far from "summon spam". In fact, this is like the minimum of summoning, it's like calling a Nurgle player who brings more than one Tree "summon spam".

Compared to what Seraphon CAN do perhaps not, but compared to the game as a whole just Slann + astrolith is in spam territory already. Just Slann + astrolith is an average of one bastiladon summon every two turns. Other armies have to optimize summoning hard just to get to where Seraphon are by default.

Well one thing to keep track of is when and where can the enemy bring in their summoned units. Kill the hero while good advice isn't always doable, sometimes zoning or limiting you opponents options can be enough. For instance Beast of Chaos summons come from the board edges so you might want to play close to the edges to limit spawning areas or play closer to the middle to keep maxim distance from your opponent also keep an eye out for any unprotected objective along the edges of the map. Chaos deamons need to be summoned next to a hero, it is then a good idea to keep track of where the enemy's heros are. If the hero is toward the front maybe you can kill them or at least cowd around them so they can't summon anyone around them. If the hero is buried in the back ask youself how much damage can a unit summoned back there actually do before the end of the game. Same strategy can be applied to Death and grave sites. Another thing about Death is that they can only summon in units that have died so if you killing one unit a turn they can easily bring back one unit a turn. If it is at all possible try to hold for a big push where you can overwhelm them in one push.

Another thing to be aware of is turn 3 as I find this to be the most important summoning turn. Most armies wont have accumulated enough points to summon anything too meaningful before then and after turn 3 most units won't have much chance to do anything that significant.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
If I go up against a properly tuned Seraphon list I simply accept that I need a round 1-2 double (if the dice are going well maybe a 2-3 double) or I will lose. I save my tactical list building for things I can reasonably counter.


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Requizen wrote:
Wait, how is it summon spam? No Balewind, no Cogs, only 1 Engine of the Gods, not Kroak... this is far from "summon spam". In fact, this is like the minimum of summoning, it's like calling a Nurgle player who brings more than one Tree "summon spam".

Compared to what Seraphon CAN do perhaps not, but compared to the game as a whole just Slann + astrolith is in spam territory already. Just Slann + astrolith is an average of one bastiladon summon every two turns. Other armies have to optimize summoning hard just to get to where Seraphon are by default.

Not a Bastiladon on average. It's only a Bastiladon every two turns if you roll max d3, cast no spells, and summon no other models. (3 casts x 3 points = 9 per turn, average on Astrolith is 2 per turn = 22, Bastilidon requires 24). Possible, but not likely and honestly probably not even the best thing to get most of the time, considering holding objectives and screening is usually the best use of summoning.

Calling it "Default" when you're dedicating 420 points just to fuel summoning and do little to nothing else is a bit disingenuous. It's the minimum for Seraphon summoning, yes, but other armies get Summoning just for being there, so considering that the Lizard player has to dedicate at minimum more than 20% of their army just to make it work means it should be a bit stronger if uninterrupted, imo.

You get 1 per round for having a slaan general, which means an average of a bastiladon every two rounds. It summons and immediately can perform its main roll of shooting. Screens are easily summoned by the engine of the gods popping out 20-man skink units. Speaking of, engines can be summoned in as well, then themselves summon on subsequent turns to create an exponential chain-summoning effect.

And a slann/astrolith does quite a lot more than just summon. Astrolith bearer is worth his cost just for the awesome buff he puts out, so factoring him into the summon cost is misleading. That leaves 260 points for a model that:
-allows you to teleport a second time (command trait)
-gives you a board-wide constellation buff
-dramatically improves the performance of engine of the gods
-is actually pretty useful for finishing things off in melee.

I wish it were 420 points to just summon, but it isn't. Not even close :(

There are a few good counters to summoning.
1- board control. If you can zone out key areas of the battlefield you can prevent someone put a summoned unit where they want. If you watch the interview that honest wargamer did with the adepticon winner, he was mostly taking advantage of his opponents leaving gaps.
2- Be fast. In an objective based game, getting on the board early can be a huge advantage. It doesn't matter how many units your opponent brings on if you are significantly up in the first two turns.
3- be tough. This is why the phoenixes are so good. The can hold up a whole army if they get powered up enough.
3- have good ranged output. Most armies rely on key pieces for their summoning. Good power projection can delete those pieces early in the game and severely mitigate summoning.
4- steal command points. This is a good counter to death which rely on command points for their summoning.
5- be killy. There is a reason why Dok are still arguably the top army in AoS despite not having, terrain, summoning or unique endless spells.
A big problem with summoning is that it doesn't scale well. It is manageable at 2000 points but at 1000 points summoning armies have a much bigger advantage.
I would like to see gw include a rule that doubles the cost of all summoning at 1000 points. So two command points for LoN etc. That is certainly how I would house rule it.

Chikout wrote:
There are a few good counters to summoning.
1- board control. If you can zone out key areas of the battlefield you can prevent someone put a summoned unit where they want. If you watch the interview that honest wargamer did with the adepticon winner, he was mostly taking advantage of his opponents leaving gaps.

Good advice. To expand on this, be careful to not over extend. One of the biggest advantages of summoning is forcing your opponent to spread out; if a unit is placed to block summoning but is not fighting, on an objective, or otherwise contributing the value then it may not be worth it as that unit has essentially been taken out of the battle without the opponent needing to do anything. More commonly a unit will still be contributing but be pulled out of position, allowing it to be surrounded and killed off by units that it would normally beat. Before spreading out, consider what your opponent stands to summon and how bad it would be if those units showed up in a given area. It may be easier to deal with the unit than send a unit out of position. There will be gaps, it is about managing where those gaps are.

2- Be fast. In an objective based game, getting on the board early can be a huge advantage. It doesn't matter how many units your opponent brings on if you are significantly up in the first two turns.

Again good advice, but be careful not to over extend. Being significantly up the first two turns means nothing if they gain board control the next three. Do not be afraid to run away from a forward objective to fortify another.

3- be tough. This is why the phoenixes are so good. The can hold up a whole army if they get powered up enough.
3- have good ranged output. Most armies rely on key pieces for their summoning. Good power projection can delete those pieces early in the game and severely mitigate summoning.
4- steal command points. This is a good counter to death which rely on command points for their summoning.
5- be killy. There is a reason why Dok are still arguably the top army in AoS despite not having, terrain, summoning or unique endless spells.

No offense, but none of this is specific to anti-summoning nor is it helpful. It says: have a durable army, do good damage at range, mess up your opponents tactics, and do good damage in melee. Not to mention there are only two armies in the game that steal command points, and many armies where dealing good ranged damage is non-viable.


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 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
Another thing to be aware of is turn 3 as I find this to be the most important summoning turn. Most armies wont have accumulated enough points to summon anything too meaningful before then and after turn 3 most units won't have much chance to do anything that significant.

This is a particularly good point I never thought about before. FEC is the obvious exception, but for everyone else it is good advice, thanks.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No offense, but none of this is specific to anti-summoning nor is it helpful. It says: have a durable army, do good damage at range, mess up your opponents tactics, and do good damage in melee. Not to mention there are only two armies in the game that steal command points, and many armies where dealing good ranged damage is non-viable

Sorry. I wasn't really setting out to write a tactica article. Just laying out the options for tackling summoning. It turns out that armies which are good at other things are also good at handling summoning.
It is really difficult to give more pointed advice without knowing the armies or the battleplans involved.

Assuming the tournament scenarios in the GHB are primarily used, since that seems to be the default.

The armies that tend to have problems also in general don't have newer books or any book.

I'd say take those as your inputs. The common answer I get is a variation of "don't play those armies then" which is not an acceptable answer.

It seems to me like Skaven are going to be the army most well equipped to handle a summoning spam army. A reasonably fast army, with options to teleport about the place and honestly terrifying power projection.

Warp Lightning Vortex can reach out and touch enemies at up to 39" away with it's two chances to deal mortal wounds upon cast. If the enemy isn't max distance away, it just gets easier to get those mortal wounds off.

Warp Lightning Cannons too, touch on massive damage and power projection. Ignores any hit modifier nonsense the enemy may have, cares not for screens. Though, the WLC's limited movement range could make it tough. Good enemy placement of heroes (far away) would make it harder for sure.

And same

I would agree that skaven do a lot of damage which is the counterpoint to spam summoning.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You get 1 per round for having a slaan general, which means an average of a bastiladon every two rounds

Oh so you do, I'll have to tell our local Seraphon player. He has forgotten that every game we've ever played, I'm sure he'll be quite happy to learn it.

auticus wrote:
I would agree that skaven do a lot of damage which is the counterpoint to spam summoning.

Apologies, should have been more precise in my comment. Skaven have immense damage for certain, but what sets them apart from other factions with high damage output is their ability to direct that damage right on to the heroes doing the buffing, the summoning or the real killing. Circles and sites that I frequent tend to go mixed faction, verminous battle line, some verminlords, and importantly, some warlocks to overcharge warp lightning cannons.

The ability to just ignore the basic shlubs and delete important characters is what sets them apart in my eyes. I don't imagine Seraphon players with a summon-spam build will take to kindly to their Slann being removed in the first turn or two!

Something to bear in mind is that not all spam summoning style armies have their summoning stem from a hero but otherwise yes I agree with you.

auticus wrote:
Something to bear in mind is that not all spam summoning style armies have their summoning stem from a hero but otherwise yes I agree with you.

Armies with terrain can usually use Terrain to set them up if all Heroes are dead (Khorne, Nurgle), but for the most part you need a Hero to either use an ability (Beasts sacrifice, FEC Command Ability) or a Hero to gain the points otherwise (Slaanesh, Seraphon).

Skaven are a solid counter because they also have the bodies to zone out summoning space. 9" summon zone can be hard to set up if you've got 40 Clan Rats chilling around a terrain piece.

Skaven have the best character sniping and board presence, two very helpful tactics against summoning. Against seraphon specifically the slann can just teleport off to the board corner, though.


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Chikout wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No offense, but none of this is specific to anti-summoning nor is it helpful. It says: have a durable army, do good damage at range, mess up your opponents tactics, and do good damage in melee. Not to mention there are only two armies in the game that steal command points, and many armies where dealing good ranged damage is non-viable

Sorry. I wasn't really setting out to write a tactica article. Just laying out the options for tackling summoning. It turns out that armies which are good at other things are also good at handling summoning.
It is really difficult to give more pointed advice without knowing the armies or the battleplans involved.

That is very true.


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Requizen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You get 1 per round for having a slaan general, which means an average of a bastiladon every two rounds

Oh so you do, I'll have to tell our local Seraphon player. He has forgotten that every game we've ever played, I'm sure he'll be quite happy to learn it.

What have I done...

I concur with a lot of the comments above - the best counter to a summoning spam list is usually to take out the heroes, preferably with ranged attacks. Order have access to some excellent ranged weaponry for example such as the new Stormcast Ballista, Dwarf cannons or the various Seraphon options.

Personally, one of my armies is Beastclaw and I find that Thundertusks offer an excellent counter.

Khorne, Ironjawz, Gloomspite, Fyreslayers, and many others are sad.

I know my primary armies have a difficult time sniping heroes. My nurgle army is mostly a counter punch army. My khorne army has some tools but in nearly 100% of my games with them vs power summoning opponent, they are smart enough to wall off their summoner and I can't just get to them because I have poor range.

My slaves to darkness army is...well.... you don't play slaves to darkness against power summoning.

My dark elf army is... well... you don't really play them against power summoning either.

My tomb kings army has some ranged but then you have to politic with your opponent whether or not you can use them since they aren't in the latest GHB and their points cost from when they got points are very much trended toward overcost so its typically going to be a bad day for you there too.

TBF one doesn't play Slaves to Darkness or mixed Aelves expecting to win. Darkling covens could do it by sheer mass of shots with darkshards. You'd need a lot of darkshards.

Unfortunately most of the armies I've collected over the past 20 years are "you don't play those expecting to win" today.

Which I am sure breeds a certain resentment, and justifiably so.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Khorne, Ironjawz, Gloomspite, Fyreslayers, and many others are sad.

Gloomspite have good board control options with their hordes of grots, they have decent ranged magic and they ate one of the two armies that can steal command points from death players. Their problem is that the fun Troggoth, spider or squig lists do this less well.
Khorne have builds in the new book to make them very fast, and thanks to the wrathmongers they have a pretty decent ranged option. Rumours are that the fyreslayers book will be a pretty substantial rewrite so it will be interesting to see how they shape up. Ironjawz struggle right now against most things, not just summoning. I really hope they get a new book soon.