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Iracundus wrote:
The finding of human worlds and pocket empires, some dating as far back as the Age of Strife or Dark Age of Technology, shows the Imperium is not the only way. If other societies have survived just as long or even longer, then their ways of survival are just as valid.

They may have survived through being lucky enough to have avoided major Waarghs, warp storms, hive fleets etc. Just because they have survived this long is no guarantee they will continue to do so. Possibly the worst risk for humanity is fracturing into pocket empires that get picked off one by one.

Is the emperor callous, cruel or truly dedicated to saving humanity?

The answer is both. The Emperor is callous, cruel AND truly dedicated to saving humanity.

 Karhedron wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The finding of human worlds and pocket empires, some dating as far back as the Age of Strife or Dark Age of Technology, shows the Imperium is not the only way. If other societies have survived just as long or even longer, then their ways of survival are just as valid.

They may have survived through being lucky enough to have avoided major Waarghs, warp storms, hive fleets etc. Just because they have survived this long is no guarantee they will continue to do so. Possibly the worst risk for humanity is fracturing into pocket empires that get picked off one by one.

That line of argument can just as easily be turned against the Imperium. The Imperium may have survived 10,000 years simply because it got lucky and there is no guarantee it will continue to do so. If you argue that survival of other societies is not proof of the validity of their ways then neither can you do so for the Imperium, yet that is the argument that is usually trotted out by Imperial apologists claiming survival justifies the Imperium’s policies.

What we know about the Imperium is also written by the Imperium, to justify the Imperium.

Iracundus wrote:

 buddha wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yeah. The 40K Universe is a self justefying facist setting. The only reason you see this as a negative is because you do not suscribe to that ideology. (And good for you.)

This. Grimdark is facism if facism was correct. IE all aliens really are trying to kill you. Knowledge really is dangerous. Disobeying superiors really will get people killed and so on.

The Emperor's actions should be viewed in this context. In this setting, the ends really do justify the means. The Emperor will do anything to keep humanity alive and at the top of the pyramid and, messed up as it all is, he is right to do so.

Now, there is a very, very, good reason facism and its tenants and followers in the real world are evil beyond argument. But that's what makes the 40k setting so messed up.

The finding of human worlds and pocket empires, some dating as far back as the Age of Strife or Dark Age of Technology, shows the Imperium is not the only way. If other societies have survived just as long or even longer, then their ways of survival are just as valid.

That is just chaos propaganda. And what is that four armed figurine on your keychain?

 buddha wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yeah. The 40K Universe is a self justefying facist setting. The only reason you see this as a negative is because you do not suscribe to that ideology. (And good for you.)

This. Grimdark is facism if facism was correct. IE all aliens really are trying to kill you. Knowledge really is dangerous. Disobeying superiors really will get people killed and so on.

The Emperor's actions should be viewed in this context. In this setting, the ends really do justify the means. The Emperor will do anything to keep humanity alive and at the top of the pyramid and, messed up as it all is, he is right to do so.

Now, there is a very, very, good reason facism and its tenants and followers in the real world are evil beyond argument. But that's what makes the 40k setting so messed up.

I really don't think this is true. Not all aliens are trying to kill the humans, it's just the Imperium enslaves or exterminates the ones that aren't. The Imperium claims knowledge is dangerous but I think the evidence is there that ignorance is even worse; even with the Imperium's stranglehold on facts people still fall to Chaos with extreme regularity and are, in fact, more susceptible to it because they are a hell of a lot more familiar with what's bad about the Imperium than they are what's bad about Chaos. Disobeying your superiors will get you killed, but obeying your superiors will also get you killed as the company commander and commissar place exactly zero value on human life; the "good" ones will include themselves in that philosophy, at least. Not all of them do though.

I don't think the Imperium is the only way; I think the Imperium is the product of people who think there is only one way.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 buddha wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yeah. The 40K Universe is a self justefying facist setting. The only reason you see this as a negative is because you do not suscribe to that ideology. (And good for you.)

This. Grimdark is facism if facism was correct. IE all aliens really are trying to kill you. Knowledge really is dangerous. Disobeying superiors really will get people killed and so on.

The Emperor's actions should be viewed in this context. In this setting, the ends really do justify the means. The Emperor will do anything to keep humanity alive and at the top of the pyramid and, messed up as it all is, he is right to do so.

Now, there is a very, very, good reason facism and its tenants and followers in the real world are evil beyond argument. But that's what makes the 40k setting so messed up.

I really don't think this is true. Not all aliens are trying to kill the humans, it's just the Imperium enslaves or exterminates the ones that aren't. The Imperium claims knowledge is dangerous but I think the evidence is there that ignorance is even worse; even with the Imperium's stranglehold on facts people still fall to Chaos with extreme regularity and are, in fact, more susceptible to it because they are a hell of a lot more familiar with what's bad about the Imperium than they are what's bad about Chaos. Disobeying your superiors will get you killed, but obeying your superiors will also get you killed as the company commander and commissar place exactly zero value on human life; the "good" ones will include themselves in that philosophy, at least. Not all of them do though.

I don't think the Imperium is the only way; I think the Imperium is the product of people who think there is only one way.

You sound Tzeentch-y.

There are many praws to this discussion. It might be that the imperium is not the best way. (With all the dark byrocratsy humor in 40K right out of a Terry Gilliam movie we know it is an unegicient use of resoruces.)

But size matters and the imperium is the biggest, therefore the safest. The bigger you are the more soldiers you can draw upon ti defend yourself. It is like Nato defending against rivaling countries that could dwarf them othervice.

It is bot only exterbal threats. While spread thin something like the inquisision keeps your enpire safe as well. Or just natural disasters. The bigger the empire the more robust you are for natural disasters like food shortage, meterors, civil war etc.

The emperor can not fully defend against tyranids. How is a snaller Empire gonne fend for themself? Uniomise in bigger groups or get wiped out by the bigger chess pieces.

Is the Emperor callous? Yes, he has shown multiple times that he was dishonest and sometime hypocritical. His treatment of pretty much every single one of his closest generals and advisors shows a picture of a manipulative and vainglorious Emperor.

Is he cruel? Yes, the Emperor is cruel since his regime glorifies violence and imposes harsh penalties on any deviance. He also uses the pain and suffering of innocent people to further his gains and he sometimes directly causes that suffering.

Is he truly dedicated to save humanity? No, the Emperor is dedicated to save the Imperium not humanity has a whole. Large stretch of humanity lives outside of the Imperium. It's very probable that numerous Imperial world and sector would survive the fall of the Imperium itself. The Emperor has no attachment either to humanity itself or to humans. His attachment is to an ideal of humanity with him at its lead. The "good" thing though is that most of humanity is under the Aegis of the Imperium, thus subject to the Emperor's care.

 Nurglitch wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 buddha wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yeah. The 40K Universe is a self justefying facist setting. The only reason you see this as a negative is because you do not suscribe to that ideology. (And good for you.)

This. Grimdark is facism if facism was correct. IE all aliens really are trying to kill you. Knowledge really is dangerous. Disobeying superiors really will get people killed and so on.

The Emperor's actions should be viewed in this context. In this setting, the ends really do justify the means. The Emperor will do anything to keep humanity alive and at the top of the pyramid and, messed up as it all is, he is right to do so.

Now, there is a very, very, good reason facism and its tenants and followers in the real world are evil beyond argument. But that's what makes the 40k setting so messed up.

I really don't think this is true. Not all aliens are trying to kill the humans, it's just the Imperium enslaves or exterminates the ones that aren't. The Imperium claims knowledge is dangerous but I think the evidence is there that ignorance is even worse; even with the Imperium's stranglehold on facts people still fall to Chaos with extreme regularity and are, in fact, more susceptible to it because they are a hell of a lot more familiar with what's bad about the Imperium than they are what's bad about Chaos. Disobeying your superiors will get you killed, but obeying your superiors will also get you killed as the company commander and commissar place exactly zero value on human life; the "good" ones will include themselves in that philosophy, at least. Not all of them do though.

I don't think the Imperium is the only way; I think the Imperium is the product of people who think there is only one way.

You sound Tzeentch-y.

Eyes her collection of Rubric Marines

...That's fair, but my point definitely still stands.

Anobody who has seen Starship Troopers knows that fasicm is a fantastic setting for sarcasmn. (They anounced a TV series now, yay.) It functions as a nice vehicle for telling justefied warstories. Of course it is justefied within the setting. That does not mean it is in any way or form a good idea. Itvis just what they went for.

Can you imagine the main faction in this setting being the federation from Star Trek? That will not interfere with a species natural evolution before they become warp capabel?

Actually, that would be quite funn: "Now that your space ship has returned to your home planet met us explain gellar fields to you. Also, if you sign this contract our soldies can help your little civelizasation with this demon invasio problem your planet seems to be having."

Might there be a better way than the IOM, possibly? It is hard though to imagine a free society when reading the wrong book or putting some stones in the wrong order by one person literally can end the world.

The IOM is essentially a thought exercise in how bad of a universe we would need were you really do need to give up freedom for security. Lets do a quick run down on the outside factions

Chaos- nuff said
Dark Eldar- yea not exactly the friendly neighborhood spider man
Eldar- At best they are going to cut you a self serving deal, at worst they are screwing you over the whole time
Tau- Better than the above, but again still ultimately want to absorb and conquer the other races
Orks- They want to fight, fight, fight. Not much you can do diplomatically
Necrons- Short term alliances at best, long term want to wipe out everyone else
Nids- Nom, Nom, Nom. Everything is food
GSC- Delusional cultists working for the above

So of the major factions, humans might be able to make a deal with two or three of the above. Background races are not better in terms of friendliness. Between the Warp and Aliens Humanity probably would need a pretty brutal system to have a large scale empire.

Going to borrow a line from the Inquisition: the Emperor doesn’t care about individuals, be it mortals, Astartes or Primarchs. He cares about preserving the overall thread of humanity. Individuals are just tools to an end.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 buddha wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Yeah. The 40K Universe is a self justefying facist setting. The only reason you see this as a negative is because you do not suscribe to that ideology. (And good for you.)

This. Grimdark is facism if facism was correct. IE all aliens really are trying to kill you. Knowledge really is dangerous. Disobeying superiors really will get people killed and so on.

The Emperor's actions should be viewed in this context. In this setting, the ends really do justify the means. The Emperor will do anything to keep humanity alive and at the top of the pyramid and, messed up as it all is, he is right to do so.

Now, there is a very, very, good reason facism and its tenants and followers in the real world are evil beyond argument. But that's what makes the 40k setting so messed up.

I really don't think this is true. Not all aliens are trying to kill the humans, it's just the Imperium enslaves or exterminates the ones that aren't. The Imperium claims knowledge is dangerous but I think the evidence is there that ignorance is even worse; even with the Imperium's stranglehold on facts people still fall to Chaos with extreme regularity and are, in fact, more susceptible to it because they are a hell of a lot more familiar with what's bad about the Imperium than they are what's bad about Chaos. Disobeying your superiors will get you killed, but obeying your superiors will also get you killed as the company commander and commissar place exactly zero value on human life; the "good" ones will include themselves in that philosophy, at least. Not all of them do though.

I don't think the Imperium is the only way; I think the Imperium is the product of people who think there is only one way.

You sound Tzeentch-y.

Eyes her collection of Rubric Marines


...That's fair, but my point definitely still stands.

Are there sparkles of pink and blue flame in your eyes as you gaze upon your thousand sons?

IMHO the state of Humanity is Humanities fault.

It's like a father with really bratty kids. When he has to separate to fighting kids another one is kicking holes in the wall for fun. He has been on a long work trip and having to deal with the kids over the phone; while the mother does nothing.

If you let someone get away with something; they will continue to do it.

If you compare the Imperium in Great Crusade and the current Imperium, what has changed it. Orders from the Emperor to be jerks? Nope hes currently indisposed. Its unchecked Human greed using the Emperors words out of context as an excuse.

 Karhedron wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The finding of human worlds and pocket empires, some dating as far back as the Age of Strife or Dark Age of Technology, shows the Imperium is not the only way. If other societies have survived just as long or even longer, then their ways of survival are just as valid.

They may have survived through being lucky enough to have avoided major Waarghs, warp storms, hive fleets etc. Just because they have survived this long is no guarantee they will continue to do so. Possibly the worst risk for humanity is fracturing into pocket empires that get picked off one by one.

Is the emperor callous, cruel or truly dedicated to saving humanity?

The answer is both. The Emperor is callous, cruel AND truly dedicated to saving humanity.

Also, that he's dedicated to the survival of humanity, not that of individual humans.

 Karhedron wrote:
Master of Mankind makes it clear that the purpose of creating the Imperium was to create a safe space for humanity to evolve its psychic potential. A psychically mature race would be supposedly immune to the perils of Chaos (not sure how as the Eldar could be described and psychically mature but they still Fell).

Pretty sure there was also the element of "That I lead" to the mature psychic race. Because Emps doesn't consider himself flawed, despite rather regularly making either human mistakes or inhuman miscalculations. Dude's arrogant and thinks if people'd only do what he tells them they'd be fine. The big question that can't be answered outright would be is he correct in thinking that.

 Niiai wrote:
Anybody who has seen Starship Troopers knows that fascism is a fantastic setting for sarcasm. (They announced a TV series now, yay.) It functions as a nice vehicle for telling justified war stories. Of course it is justified within the setting. That does not mean it is in any way or form a good idea. It's just what they went for.

Yeah, that aspect of "This is the kind of universe required for these beliefs to be the slightest bit relevant" is itself an aspect of the humor. Further that it's still not actually working just compounds it.

 Niiai wrote:
I think your awnser is very little reflected. In order to do something big you have to delegate a lot of responsabilaty to others. It worked very well for some 25 000 years. (I do not know when he cane to power.) You compare him to other Terran warlords? That is not compreball at all. How much of the universe did he rule before the house of cards startdd crumbling down. Also, he is not done yet as far as we know. It is an ongoing process.

There are very few things in the warhammer universe you can comprare him to. The two closest are the Old Ones, who failed. The Eldar who fell to Chaos, although they are still inn the game if the Inary thing pans out. Although the Rahna Dandra would indicate it does not go so well for them in the end. So far the Emperor has done better then the Old Ones, Eldar and Necrons. He is not flawless, but we are for the most part counting hits, not misses.

Arcumentably, the hive mind has the emperor beat.

Other fictional comparisons would be Leo Atradies. He is doing far worse the Leo. Bit then Leo had perfect future vision and no Chaos in his fictional universe. Your hero is only as good as his foyl.

What do you mean the cards crumbling? If it's the DAOT then none. If it's the Heresy then it didn't crumble, he blew it over.

It's not really an ongoing process. His plan was to conquer the galaxy, secure the Webway, then evolve humanity into a psychic race safely within it. Let's just analyse that plan. First galactic domination - that's fine but really what Terran warlord wouldn't do that by allying with the Mechanicum and using genetic horrors?
Securing the Webway - That's a bad plan there. Humanity had a single access point to the Webway they could use and it greatly limited their numbers and strength which are their only advantages over the Eldar who would undoubtedly fight back. At best it would be a very long and costly war. At worst the Eldar would play the nobody wins game and just destroy the thing, damning humanity.
Evolving to a psychic race - In theory that plan works but the Emperor had a basic misunderstanding of Chaos.

But he failed at conquest because he gave nutters power and didn't have loyal people following him. Apparently in all human history he didn't learn that loyalty to the son is not loyalty to the father.

The Old Ones aren't comparable at all. The Old Ones fell because their empire was torn apart by Enslavers, soulless automatons controlled by star gods and the Warp going from peaceful and safe to super hell and most of that can't be predicted. Eldar fell because of their own arrogance which is pretty much the same as the Emperor.
Orks are doing far better than the Emperor, they can't be beaten, they have a perfect society (arguably) and aren't being messed over by their own stupidity. Same for Necrons they voluntarily went to sleep until they had the advantage and now they have they're back, even if the galaxy is wiped clean of life they'll win.

Canonically speaking the Eldar supposedly have a happy ending based on Valedor.

Emperor hits - He made Vulkan, Guilliman, Russ, Ferrus, Corax and the other loyalist Primarchs.
Put humanity into a single faction, I guess.

Misses - Decided not to fix the Mechanicum with his literal god tier power and left a bunch of religious fanatics who aren anti research in charge of almost all science and industry.
- Created a bunch of powerful beings and almost single handedly turned them against humanity because dumb dumb.
- Guaranteed humanity couldn't have peaceful relations with any aliens ever.
- Managed to ruin the single faction he made.

It probably seems like I'm being unfair but I'm genuinely struggling to see Emperor successes...

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Master of Mankind makes it clear that the purpose of creating the Imperium was to create a safe space for humanity to evolve its psychic potential. A psychically mature race would be supposedly immune to the perils of Chaos (not sure how as the Eldar could be described and psychically mature but they still Fell).

Pretty sure there was also the element of "That I lead" to the mature psychic race. Because Emps doesn't consider himself flawed, despite rather regularly making either human mistakes or inhuman miscalculations. Dude's arrogant and thinks if people'd only do what he tells them they'd be fine. The big question that can't be answered outright would be is he correct in thinking that.

No, the Emperor actively wanted to avoid leading. He tried guiding from behind the scenes for millennia. But the Fall of the Eldar and the end of the Age of Strife created both a problem and an opportunity that could only be handled by direct intervention. The collapse of the Galaxy's dominant species left a vacancy. Filling that vacancy before something like the Orks overran the Galaxy was imperative.

The Emperor hoped that once the Imperium was established, he could hand it over to humanity to run while he faded back into obscurity. Malcador believed the Emperor to be sincere but also believed he was over-optimistic to think that humanity would be able to manage the Imperium without him.

 Karhedron wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Master of Mankind makes it clear that the purpose of creating the Imperium was to create a safe space for humanity to evolve its psychic potential. A psychically mature race would be supposedly immune to the perils of Chaos (not sure how as the Eldar could be described and psychically mature but they still Fell).

Pretty sure there was also the element of "That I lead" to the mature psychic race. Because Emps doesn't consider himself flawed, despite rather regularly making either human mistakes or inhuman miscalculations. Dude's arrogant and thinks if people'd only do what he tells them they'd be fine. The big question that can't be answered outright would be is he correct in thinking that.

No, the Emperor actively wanted to avoid leading. He tried guiding from behind the scenes for millennia. But the Fall of the Eldar and the end of the Age of Strife created both a problem and an opportunity that could only be handled by direct intervention. The collapse of the Galaxy's dominant species left a vacancy. Filling that vacancy before something like the Orks overran the Galaxy was imperative.

The Emperor hoped that once the Imperium was established, he could hand it over to humanity to run while he faded back into obscurity. Malcador believed the Emperor to be sincere but also believed he was over-optimistic to think that humanity would be able to manage the Imperium without him.

apparently the emperor and Malcador have a long running debate. The Emperor hopes that one day humanity won't need him, Malcador very much thinks that'll never happen

I think that pre-golden throne and post-golden are two different Emperors.

Sadly, I'm only qualified to talk about post golden throne emperor.

This man is the suffering martyr who is aware of the failures of the empire he created and pained by them, but who has no other choice.

Because in post golden throne 40k, to my knowledge, it has always been true that a) if the emperor dies, the astronomicon dies b) if the astronomicon dies, humanity dies.

People have pointed out that isolated pockets of humanity have survived; those that have thus far done so would continue to do so, until the inevitable contact with chaos or a hostile xenotype, at which point, they would be destroyed.

Most Imperial worlds, however, would fall. Many systems rely on imports to support huge populations. Even the few worlds that are self sustaining would have high enough populations that they would tear themselves to pieces in the panic that would follow the collapse of Imperial rule.

I find the Imperium's brutalists policies have become difficult to talk about now that we have Horus Heresy books. Now we have pre HH and post HH to analyze. Post HH is definitely brutal out of necessity, but I think the pre HH imperium dug that hole for themselves.

I should mention as well that for me personally, background and fluff come from the game- I see the novels as being "extended universe" type content. I don't treat it as cannon, because often, the battles described could never actually happen they way they do in the novels if you used 40k rules.

How many times has a single marine, even a single squad, defeated entire armies just because -it's a marine! it's tougher than everything-

I understand I'm in a minority position on this, and I'm not suggesting that my way of looking at 40k background is superior to anyone else's way- this is just what works for me.

I don't like marines enough to read 100+ novels in which they are the only meaningful characters. If there was a series of novels based on the age of apostasy, that might intrigue me enough to read, and if they didn't entirely suck, I might think of them as cannon, but that's a lot of ifs.

PenitentJake wrote:
I should mention as well that for me personally, background and fluff come from the game- I see the novels as being "extended universe" type content. I don't treat it as cannon, because often, the battles described could never actually happen they way they do in the novels if you used 40k rules.

How many times has a single marine, even a single squad, defeated entire armies just because -it's a marine! it's tougher than everything-

I understand I'm in a minority position on this, and I'm not suggesting that my way of looking at 40k background is superior to anyone else's way- this is just what works for me.

I don't like marines enough to read 100+ novels in which they are the only meaningful characters. If there was a series of novels based on the age of apostasy, that might intrigue me enough to read, and if they didn't entirely suck, I might think of them as cannon, but that's a lot of ifs.

Well, remember that the novels are closer to being what you'd see in a RPG setting than in a TTWG. In a rpg you can do the sort of things you see in a novel.

PenitentJake wrote:
I should mention as well that for me personally, background and fluff come from the game- I see the novels as being "extended universe" type content. I don't treat it as cannon, because often, the battles described could never actually happen they way they do in the novels if you used 40k rules.

How many times has a single marine, even a single squad, defeated entire armies just because -it's a marine! it's tougher than everything-

I understand I'm in a minority position on this, and I'm not suggesting that my way of looking at 40k background is superior to anyone else's way- this is just what works for me.

I don't like marines enough to read 100+ novels in which they are the only meaningful characters. If there was a series of novels based on the age of apostasy, that might intrigue me enough to read, and if they didn't entirely suck, I might think of them as cannon, but that's a lot of ifs.

The trick is to remember that the authors get to fix the dice results to suit the needs of the story. My heroes rolls 6s until they need to roll 1s.

 buddha wrote:
The problem with the Grmdark setting is that no, there are no other ways. Those small pockets are survival pockets, they cannot take over and ensure humanity's survival or dominance in the galaxy. They might have escaped but they cannot ultimately stop the tyranids, or the orks, or the necrons, or, most dangerously the powers of chaos. Plus, any argument the imperium, beats them every time (and did during the great crusade) so the argument they are a better way isn't supported by the fluff. At best they are a relic of a hope that there was a different way which the dark age obliterated as an option.

I beleive what you are saying here is that 40K (I don't know that I'd really want to generalize it to all "Grimdark" because that makes it nebulous) is built on Thomas Hobbes idea about the "State of Nature" in that it is a "state of war" and so, in the end, "justifies" what ends up being The Leviathan which is pretty much what the Emperor is, an absolute monarch, a despot.

It's probably best though, really, if we all don't get caught in what would essentially be Hume's Is-Ought problem here, in thinking that because the Emperor is a tyrant, that he ought to be a tyrant. Unless, of course, you believe that a tyrant is the only functional way to govern. But I'd find it hard to believe that is a fact.

Then again, there is also the issue that perhaps the Emperor's "Rationalist" decree was (is) a massive miscue. I do, of course, think that "totalitarian rationalism" is indeed demonstrably monstrous (not to mention disastrous) especially in light of the existential fact (in 40k) of Chaos and it's power. The "only" way the Emperor's "plan" seems likely to have "worked" would have been if he literally remade all of humanity to be emotionless, rational agents. In other words, robots. But Space Marines aren't just biological robots, so really that either wasn't the plan or the plan itself was "destined" to fail, by my measure.

P.S. Death to the false emperor.

PenitentJake wrote:
I should mention as well that for me personally, background and fluff come from the game- I see the novels as being "extended universe" type content. I don't treat it as cannon, because often, the battles described could never actually happen they way they do in the novels if you used 40k rules.

Which game, though? There's been fourteen games, so far, depicting military ground combat in the Warhammer 40,000 setting, and there are contradictions between them - the effectiveness of Space Marines, for example.

PenitentJake wrote:
I think that pre-golden throne and post-golden are two different Emperors.

Possibly. Guilliman described his meeting with the Emperor after his resurrection. He reflects that the Emperor has lost his subtlety and can no longer cloak his intentions with love or lies.

This suggests that the biggest change is that post HH Emperor is "raw" rather than being filtered through a human body to smooth off the rough edges.

Sometimes you have to be harsh to do the right thing, sure there are some things the Emperor did that we would consider cruel, but he did it to save mankind from extinction.

As the saying goes, the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few.

 Jazzylee wrote:
Sometimes you have to be harsh to do the right thing, sure there are some things the Emperor did that we would consider cruel, but he did it to save mankind from extinction.

As the saying goes, the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few.

I think a different saying is more appropriate here: the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Well, the emperor may be facing a situation that has no "good" choice.