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TBH when earlier in the thread you failed to replicate contrast paints well claiming you did, kinda discredited everything you've had to say since then. Sorry DanceOfSlaanesh but you kinda lost a lot of clout in this discussion after that. No one really values you opinion, and it's just getting you worked up to try and "prove us wrong" at this point.

TBH you don't have any skin in this race, and should just Self Care at this point. It feels like your getting yourself worked up, and taking this all very personally. You don't need to let this eat you up inside.

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
I see nothing have changed, anything remotely cricital of the product and the personal insults starts to rain in.

It only gets "personal" when someone casts the first stone.

Being critical is really to assess what the paint is "good for", it's most useful application.
Once that is properly figured out, it can find it's place in whatever painting toolchest people have.

I look at it as as a more viscous and darker "shade".
It has a behavior much like various weathering pigments where you could do some interesting things when you put too much on and it "runs" down a piece.

"Nothing has changed"... People come and go, things change all the time, maybe your perception has not changed? That is the only commonality unless you have "stalker trolls" and then there is "ignore".
I am interested to see how this supposed change in painting will affect any approach I presently have.

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
I see nothing have changed, anything remotely cricital of the product and the personal insults starts to rain in.

Ah now, what you've gone and done there is, from where I'm sat, draw a false conclusion. People might be reacting to your posts, true. They might be reacting negatively to your posts, also true. That they're reacting negatively to your posts because you're being critical of the product? Massive great big steaming assumption.

If you are not reacting to my opinion about the product, then its not really related to this thread. You are welcome to send your wonderful insults to me in a PM instead of derailing this thread.

 Azazelx wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

You incorrectly inferring that from my statement isn't really my problem though.

You really should stop telling real hobbyists, or anyone for that matter, what they should be doing.

To real news: The way that they're choosing to release these (2 week pre-order? staggered release? weird bundles that are mostly non-contrast paints? no full paint sets of the range?) seems odd. I know it's a large new range of SKUs all at once, but I don't recall any of their old, large paint revamps being this unnessecarily complex.

I’ve missed where they’ve said staggered release?
And it’s not a 2 week pre order right? It’s the 8th to preorder and they release 15th..

Bundle thing is weird, but also a nice money saving bundle, so I wouldn’t complain as they don’t normally..

the bundle is clearly aimed at people who don't have many paints - a huge corner of the contrast concept is getting non-painters painting. So a few basic paints, shades,layers and some contrast is ideal as a marketing tool for GW to use.

Danny76 wrote:
I’ve missed where they’ve said staggered release?

There's been no mention of the new Layer paints (all 8 if them, if you don't count the relabeled Edge paints).

My GW manager got back from a seminar with the contrast paints. He had a few interesting comments.

1. Contrast isn't necessarily for 'new' painters. He thought that new painters might actually be disappointed in the paints if they don't get a proper tutoring in their use.

2. The pigmentation is super strong. He spilled some on his hand and it took two days for it to wash off properly.

Also, not all stores will be getting the full range of paints. The top paint-selling stores will be getting new racks and will sell every paint (including the new forgeworld paints), but most stores will be sacrificing other paints to make room for Contrast and the new base paints (in other words, not getting new racks). If there's a paint you want that you're worried about, get it now.

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
If you are not reacting to my opinion about the product, then its not really related to this thread. You are welcome to send your wonderful insults to me in a PM instead of derailing this thread.

Ever heard the phrase "it's not what you say, it's how you say it"?

Time to drop the tangent of discussing other posters and stick to the topic of the new paint range.
Thanks,
ingtaer.

 Ghaz wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
I’ve missed where they’ve said staggered release?

There's been no mention of the new Layer paints (all 8 if them, if you don't count the relabeled Edge paints).

aren't those just the ex-forgeworld paints? a whole bunch of the FW colours that were discontinued are comining back under the GW brand including the airbrush range

drbored wrote:


Also, not all stores will be getting the full range of paints. The top paint-selling stores will be getting new racks and will sell every paint (including the new forgeworld paints), but most stores will be sacrificing other paints to make room for Contrast and the new base paints (in other words, not getting new racks). If there's a paint you want that you're worried about, get it now.

To make it even more fun, FLGS are required to buy a full stock on the contrast paints if they want to order them. So smaller stores may not stock or be able to order them until GW releases them for individual orders. The new add on rack comes with the order.

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
you could already paint with this technique, people have for a long time

Until you run a strong campaign and point out new techniques to people, most people won't use them.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
I’ve missed where they’ve said staggered release?

There's been no mention of the new Layer paints (all 8 if them, if you don't count the relabeled Edge paints).

aren't those just the ex-forgeworld paints? a whole bunch of the FW colours that were discontinued are comining back under the GW brand including the airbrush range

Yes. Of the old Forge World paints (not including the clear paints), there's 18 Air paints, 13 Base paints and 8 Layer paints. There's been no mention by GW of the Layer paints.

Also note that at this time, paints are not appearing on the GW site at all.

Did anyone see any feedback from pro painters on how they're better than alternatives for specific tasks?
There are now multiple gorgeous minis that were painted by pros using mostly contrast paints. But I didn't see any of them explaining how they can be an improvement over existing ranges.
It's faster to do one coat of contrast than 2 coats of base + a wash (but you don't have as much choice when it comes to colors, and no control over the color of the shadows), but I didn't find any mention of something that is much easier to achieve with contrast than with more traditional ways.

fresus wrote:
Did anyone see any feedback from pro painters on how they're better than alternatives for specific tasks?
There are now multiple gorgeous minis that were painted by pros using mostly contrast paints. But I didn't see any of them explaining how they can be an improvement over existing ranges.
It's faster to do one coat of contrast than 2 coats of base + a wash (but you don't have as much choice when it comes to colors, and no control over the color of the shadows), but I didn't find any mention of something that is much easier to achieve with contrast than with more traditional ways.

I’ve heard several people compare them to painting with watercolours as opposed to oils. I can totally see that. They’re being sold as, just slap on one thick coat, but that’s not how the best painters are using them. It’s more a case of painting translucent colours over a pale base and building up the shadows. It’s just a much faster, more fluid technique, just like painting a traditional picture with watercolours is much faster than using oils or acrylics. You’ll still need brush control, a good sense of colour and a degree of skill to get the best results, but I’m seeing good painters finish a mini to a high standard in less than an hour, where previously it might have taken them upwards to 5 hours to get something that looks as good.


In terms of what contrast can do that other paint can’t, there’s a luminescent quality that comes from painting translucent colour over a pale background that’s very difficult to replicate with opaque colour. Not saying that’s necessarily better, just different.

erzengal wrote:

drbored wrote:


Also, not all stores will be getting the full range of paints. The top paint-selling stores will be getting new racks and will sell every paint (including the new forgeworld paints), but most stores will be sacrificing other paints to make room for Contrast and the new base paints (in other words, not getting new racks). If there's a paint you want that you're worried about, get it now.

To make it even more fun, FLGS are required to buy a full stock on the contrast paints if they want to order them. So smaller stores may not stock or be able to order them until GW releases them for individual orders. The new add on rack comes with the order.

So talked at length with my FLGS owner yesterday and basically confirming what I previously posted. They have been told repeatedly by their account rep only a "select" group of stores are getting the full line on June 15, but only guaranteed 6 pots of each color (which they are one of those stores and have already received their add-on rack). Furthermore their account rep will not give them any details on pre-orders and will not commit to them that any pre-orders taken by independent stockists on June 8 will be delivered along with their inital supply of contrast paints on June 15, but that the paints will be more widely available starting June 22.

So that said and considering the others input and observations I believe the following is accurate;
- GW is taking pre-orders on June 8. (Confirmed by GW)
- Contrast paints will be "available" on June 15 and by "available" I mean in limited locations and quanities. (Street date confirmed by GW, limited availability confirmed by FLGS)
- There is no confirmation that pre-orders placed on June 8 will be delivered by June 15.
- Per my FLGS, paints will be more widely available June 22.

My conclusion is the June 15 street date is restricted to GW stores and select Independent Stockists. If your FLGS does not already have confirmation they are getting paints on June 15, they will not have contrast paints on June 15. Do not plan on placing a pre-order with your independent stockist on June 8 and expect to pick it up or have it delivered by June 15.

If anyone has any contradicitry information, please share.

I’m hoping that they are available from independent retailers and that the preorders don’t sell out too quickly as I have a run tomorrow so won’t be able to preorder until 12ish. Usually I wouldn’t be too bothered about grabbing a preorder but actually have two completely free weekends coming up starting with release weekend, first two of the years so would be nice to actually spend some time with them then.

I’m mostly planning to use on board game plastics starting with either Hellboy or Journeys in Middle-Earth but like the Death Guard results shown so far so tempted to start with some of them.

 BertBert wrote:
I think the argument still stands, as new painters will not be exposed to said key skills. Contrast is marketed as a colour you just need to slap on generously ("One thick coat") and that is exactly what newcomers will be taught in GW stores.

The fact that professional painters can achieve great results with contrast hast really no bearing on the argument.

The counter argument to the (very gatekeeper-ish) notion that "People won't learn proper techniques!" will always be "So what?".

There is no 'proper' way to paint things. People paint as they paint, some do it well, some don't. These paints offer a different method of painting, and the idea that this is somehow less than, comes from a place of arrogance and fear.

drbored wrote:
1. Contrast isn't necessarily for 'new' painters. He thought that new painters might actually be disappointed in the paints if they don't get a proper tutoring in their use.

I've been wondering about this. While it was heralded as being great for new painters or people who didn't want to go through the effort of painting a whole army, I'm not sure those demographics will benefit most. It appears the required brush control and risk of messing already painted sections up (then, the effort of retouching those) is not ideal for either group. If you want quick, durable results that are "good enough", basic block colours and dip sounds better than careful application of these thin glazes, followed by mandatory varnish.

On a sidenote, I hope GW won't push the use of yellow/grey contrast paints as alternative to metals too much. Unless really well done, it looks terrible. If they can't combine a metallic paint with contrast properties, just use the metallic paint with a wash, rather than use contrast paints just for the sake of them being contrast paints, despite the fact that they give worse results.

My local at this point is a GW (and I’m quite happy). I’m ordering a bottle of the black and the yellow day one (plus whatever colors my wife wants to start with). I already saw how the black works, and that one is a given.

 Lord of Deeds wrote:

erzengal wrote:

drbored wrote:


Also, not all stores will be getting the full range of paints. The top paint-selling stores will be getting new racks and will sell every paint (including the new forgeworld paints), but most stores will be sacrificing other paints to make room for Contrast and the new base paints (in other words, not getting new racks). If there's a paint you want that you're worried about, get it now.

To make it even more fun, FLGS are required to buy a full stock on the contrast paints if they want to order them. So smaller stores may not stock or be able to order them until GW releases them for individual orders. The new add on rack comes with the order.

So talked at length with my FLGS owner yesterday and basically confirming what I previously posted. They have been told repeatedly by their account rep only a "select" group of stores are getting the full line on June 15, but only guaranteed 6 pots of each color (which they are one of those stores and have already received their add-on rack). Furthermore their account rep will not give them any details on pre-orders and will not commit to them that any pre-orders taken by independent stockists on June 8 will be delivered along with their inital supply of contrast paints on June 15, but that the paints will be more widely available starting June 22.

So that said and considering the others input and observations I believe the following is accurate;
- GW is taking pre-orders on June 8. (Confirmed by GW)
- Contrast paints will be "available" on June 15 and by "available" I mean in limited locations and quanities. (Street date confirmed by GW, limited availability confirmed by FLGS)
- There is no confirmation that pre-orders placed on June 8 will be delivered by June 15.
- Per my FLGS, paints will be more widely available June 22.

My conclusion is the June 15 street date is restricted to GW stores and select Independent Stockists. If your FLGS does not already have confirmation they are getting paints on June 15, they will not have contrast paints on June 15. Do not plan on placing a pre-order with your independent stockist on June 8 and expect to pick it up or have it delivered by June 15.

If anyone has any contradicitry information, please share.

I don't understand the smoke and mirrors tactics that GW has been doing with ALL the recent or in demand releases. Why not tell the retailers that they are only going to be doing preorders through their website, which that is the only way to guarantee anything anymore. This is intentional by design. I hope eventually by screwing over all those who sell their products the retailers just stop carrying their product. I am getting far too frustrated with figuring out who I am going to have to place an order through and even if that place will be able to get the product. I sure hope karma catches those GW bastards and they are left with nothing.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

drbored wrote:
1. Contrast isn't necessarily for 'new' painters. He thought that new painters might actually be disappointed in the paints if they don't get a proper tutoring in their use.

I've been wondering about this. While it was heralded as being great for new painters or people who didn't want to go through the effort of painting a whole army, I'm not sure those demographics will benefit most. It appears the required brush control and risk of messing already painted sections up (then, the effort of retouching those) is not ideal for either group. If you want quick, durable results that are "good enough", basic block colours and dip sounds better than careful application of these thin glazes, followed by mandatory varnish.

On a sidenote, I hope GW won't push the use of yellow/grey contrast paints as alternative to metals too much. Unless really well done, it looks terrible. If they can't combine a metallic paint with contrast properties, just use the metallic paint with a wash, rather than use contrast paints just for the sake of them being contrast paints, despite the fact that they give worse results.

I dunno like, are the people who're just intent on bashing out a quick army be that concerned about retouching? Besides which, I think people place brush control on a pedestal a little bit - it's important, but "be careful until you're used it it, rest your arms & hands in such a way that they're supported, and always remember that the brush will usually deposit the most paint at the end of the stroke" is hardly neurosurgery, and is sufficient for a newbie.

Also, dip still requires brush control, just at the basecoat application stage instead of the "magic goo" application phase.

This seems like a decent representation of how the "just get it done" group will approach things, obviously with the caveat that it won't be this quick for a genuine newbie:

The Contrast hype train is starting to run out juice for me. I honestly believe that Warhammer Community started to build the hype bit too early. When the street date was finally given, my first thought was "do I really have to wait three more weeks?". It feels that I have already waited long enough and if GW fails to provide the product for release date I am going to spend far less than I originally intended.

While I appreciate previews of what to come, too much hype often turns against the product. For me it killed the interest in Forbidden Power and I am afraid it might do the same for Contrast paints and Warcry

regarding whats taught, I was in my local GW the other day and asked and contrast will be demo'd for the next two weeks but after that they won't be using it to teach new painters no. although apparently wraithbone will be the new base colour they use for teaching painting as opposed to black

That was a great video , and really shows what can be done in 40 minutes of actual painting with a modicum of skill.

I’m a little perturbed at the fact I stopped by my FLGS and was told they are getting their initial shipment, but it will be sold out quickly and GW is expecting a few weeks until restocks happen . Good support on a new range.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"People won't learn proper techniques!" will always be "So what?".

There is no 'proper' way to paint things. People paint as they paint, some do it well, some don't. These paints offer a different method of painting, and the idea that this is somehow less than, comes from a place of arrogance and fear.

"Arrogance and fear". Wow. Really?

So...

This:


is just the same as this?





Sorry for the slight OT.

About the product itself, i think they are inks with perhaps more pigments, just like these:

https://scale75.com/en/71-inktensity-range
http://www.greenstuffworld.com/en/acrylic-inks/829-set-x6-intensity-inks-set-1.html
http://www.greenstuffworld.com/en/acrylic-inks/828-set-x6-intensity-inks-set-2.html

So an existing product now sold by GW with a huge price tag and a marketing campaign like they are re-discovering the wheel.

I don't know, but ok...

Guy who did Rhino video just tried different technique, with much faster and better looking results:




I wonder, would that work for Space Marines and other models with too many too flat surfaces?

 Warpspy wrote:


So...

This:

Spoiler:

is just the same as this?

Spoiler:

Ya, but the top guy's stuff started out like the bottom guys. No one starts their first painting gig doing the Sistine Chapel. According to some of the snobs here I should have stayed using Testers model paints and never aspired to anything but the below guy's stuff. Next I found Polly S paints and acrylic paints and then Heroes for Wargames. By the time GW brought out their first Inks in dropper bottles, it was on. Show someone that painting isn't a horrible chore and maybe they'll learn to enjoy it. Maybe they'll be excellent at it. Maybe they'll just have a Battle Ready army.

Can't wait to see someone paint CMoN minis like the ones in Zombicide with this stuff.

 Irbis wrote:
Guy who did Rhino video just tried different technique, with much faster and better looking results:

Spoiler:

I wonder, would that work for Space Marines and other models with too many too flat surfaces?

I've been mulling over using the black contrast with a silver basecoat for an Iron Hands force. This sponge application certainly has potential for the bigger models.