Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.

Why would they be allies?

Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...

You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.

As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.

The Eldar Empire was also all over the galaxy though. When did a harlequin say that?

There's a huge difference between seeing a webway gate and being able to use it. If I walk up to a nuclear bunker door I can go "yup that's a bunker door" but there's no way I can open it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.

You don't wage a war on the lower forms of life around you. Eldar having a war with humans is like us having a war with rabbits.

Nonsense, the Imperium doesn't have anything like the technology they used to, they are practically orks in comparison to the DAOT and the Eldar have problems fighting the Imperium when they are equally matched.

The Eldar Empire was large but it didn't span the galaxy, the eye of terror is where it used to be. Mankind and the Imperium spanned far more space-time than the Eldar, even though their actual empire wasn't as big population wise.

That is already been shown to be a FALSE claim. The Eldar Empire spanned the galaxy. LOOK in any Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin Codex map from current or past editions and you will see Eldar planets and sites spanning the galaxy. No matter how many times you repeat that claim, it is still false and this is easily checked with any cursory glance through a Codex.

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.

Why would they be allies?

Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...

You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.

As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.

The Eldar Empire was also all over the galaxy though. When did a harlequin say that?

There's a huge difference between seeing a webway gate and being able to use it. If I walk up to a nuclear bunker door I can go "yup that's a bunker door" but there's no way I can open it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.

You don't wage a war on the lower forms of life around you. Eldar having a war with humans is like us having a war with rabbits.

Nonsense, the Imperium doesn't have anything like the technology they used to, they are practically orks in comparison to the DAOT and the Eldar have problems fighting the Imperium when they are equally matched.

The Eldar Empire was large but it didn't span the galaxy, the eye of terror is where it used to be. Mankind and the Imperium spanned far more space-time than the Eldar, even though their actual empire wasn't as big population wise.

That is already been shown to be a FALSE claim. The Eldar Empire spanned the galaxy. LOOK in any Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin Codex map from current or past editions and you will see Eldar planets and sites spanning the galaxy. No matter how many times you repeat that claim, it is still false and this is easily checked with any cursory glance through a Codex.

Yeah the craftworlds spanned the galaxy, not the Empire its self. The codex even says the craftworlds went far from where the Empire was.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Yeah the craftworlds spanned the galaxy, not the Empire its self. The codex even says the craftworlds went far from where the Empire was.

Wrong again. Ruin sites from the Empire spanned the galaxy. Clearly you know little to nothing about the Eldar and have not even glanced at one of their Codex maps, because you keep repeating this misconception.

The most recent combined map showing all the various Eldar kindred sites is shown in the 7th edition Harlequin Codex, pages 10-11. Everything from Craftworlds to Exodite worlds, to Eldar empire ruins, to the realspace locations corresponding to Commorragh's satellite realm gates (satellite realms were constructed during before the Fall and only subsequently stitched together to form modern Commorragh) is shown. Though the densest concentration is near the Eye, the sites are found from one end of the galaxy to the other.

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How does having a Webway portal on the moon equal letting humans into the heart of the Eldar Empire? Humans don't know how to even begin using them.

Why would they be allies?

Cite a source for the surrounding thing. Eldar have planets literally circling the Galaxy. To surround them you'd have to leave the galaxy...

You misunderstood, surrounding as in the human planets are found all over the galaxy and surrounded the old eldar empire which was focused around the eye with some world's outside, as for citation of that, the entire Horus heresy series, and why would they be allies, for one we have been told they were allies at some point by a harliquin.

As to the webway, heresy era humans could detect and find them so it is completely reasonable to assume that dark age tech humans could too, and allowing a part of the webway into the human empire for a potential enemy simply would not happen unless they allowed it on purpose, IE they were allies.

The Eldar Empire was also all over the galaxy though. When did a harlequin say that?

There's a huge difference between seeing a webway gate and being able to use it. If I walk up to a nuclear bunker door I can go "yup that's a bunker door" but there's no way I can open it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah, they must have known about each other, the webway was intact then, the Eldar could travel the whole galaxy and mankind would obviously be a serious threat, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of truce. We do know that the Eldar Empire and mankind's empire remained pretty much unmolested until the time of the fall, its not like they were at war with some other force to stop them attacking one another, that we know of that is.

You don't wage a war on the lower forms of life around you. Eldar having a war with humans is like us having a war with rabbits.

Nonsense, the Imperium doesn't have anything like the technology they used to, they are practically orks in comparison to the DAOT and the Eldar have problems fighting the Imperium when they are equally matched.

The Eldar Empire was large but it didn't span the galaxy, the eye of terror is where it used to be. Mankind and the Imperium spanned far more space-time than the Eldar, even though their actual empire wasn't as big population wise.

That is already been shown to be a FALSE claim. The Eldar Empire spanned the galaxy. LOOK in any Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequin Codex map from current or past editions and you will see Eldar planets and sites spanning the galaxy. No matter how many times you repeat that claim, it is still false and this is easily checked with any cursory glance through a Codex.

Yeah the craftworlds spanned the galaxy, not the Empire its self. The codex even says the craftworlds went far from where the Empire was.

Wrong again. Ruin sites from the Empire spanned the galaxy. Clearly you know little to nothing about the Eldar and have not even glanced at one of their Codex maps, because you keep repeating this misconception.

Okay find me a map that was before the fall. All their crone worlds are stated to be where the eye is. You are mistaking exodite worlds for crone worlds.

You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.

The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy, as well as depicting Commorragh's satellite realm realspace locations, which date from before the Fall.

Older sources show a similar spread:

World with the Shrine of Elronhir in the galactic north east (4th edition Eldar Codex, p. 15). Elronhir is an Eldar pre-Fall hero that defeated the mon'keigh of legend.

Iracundus wrote:
You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.

The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.

Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'

I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.

The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.

Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'

I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.

Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins and Webway gate frames and monoliths all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.

The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.

There is a key difference from thinking for example that Paris is the heart of France, to thinking France consisted only of Paris. The core of the Eldar empire was where the Eye now is, and was where the densest population concentration would have been and where the rot of decadence would have set in earliest, but that does not mean they did not span the galaxy as evidenced by the sources and examples cited.

Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.

Once again:
Combined Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequin/Pre-Fall sites of interest map (7th edition Harlequin Codex, p. 10-11)
World with the Shrine of Elronhir in the galactic north east (4th edition Eldar Codex, p. 15). Elronhir is an Eldar pre-Fall hero that defeated the mon'keigh of legend, and since the Eldar have not built shrines on worlds since the Fall, the Shrine of Elronhir dates from pre-Fall times.

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.

The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.

Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'

I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.

Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.

The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.

Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.

They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.

The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.

The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.

Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'

I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.

Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.

The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.

Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.

They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.

The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.

I don't know if you are pretending to be obtuse to avoid admitting being wrong or whether you just don't get it. Crone worlds explicitly are Eldar empire worlds that were overwhelmed by the warp in the Fall. They are called crone worlds because they are both repositories of pre-Fall Eldar tech, knowledge, and because spirit stones coalesce on them and can be harvested. I have nowhere stated crone worlds must be taken by the Eye of Terror only. I have in fact explicitly given citation of a crone world NOT in the Eye of Terror. I get the feeling you are not reading what other people post and are just repeating your same false and wrong claims over and over as if repeating a falsehood long enough will make it true.

The Harlequin map as I have stated shows sites of interest to the Eldar, which includes pre-Fall sites and Commorragh satellite realms which themselves pre-date the Fall, NOT just Exodite worlds. You are stating something that is categorically false if anyone even so much as glances at that map that was cited. Any other readers can verify what I have claimed.

There is little point responding further to you if you are just going to keep repeating the same wrong things over without evidence and without having actually checked the sources cited, which you clearly have not. If you continue to do so I suspect you are in fact pretending to be obtuse on purpose and this is in fact trolling.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.

The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.

Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'

I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.

Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.

The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.

Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.

They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.

The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.

I'm not seeing the contradiction. Crone world is a special term for Eldar planets consumed by the Eye of Terror. The other Eldar worlds that were destroyed would be Exodite, Maiden or other kinds of planet. Exodite ruins are from things like Exodite Worlds that other races have since colonised.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.

The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.

Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'

I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.

Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.

The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.

Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.

They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.

The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.

I'm not seeing the contradiction. Crone world is a special term for Eldar planets consumed by the Eye of Terror. The other Eldar worlds that were destroyed would be Exodite, Maiden or other kinds of planet. Exodite ruins are from things like Exodite Worlds that other races have since colonised.

Crone worlds do not have to be in the Eye of Terror. There is an example of one in the Maelstrom as I have repeatedly cited from the BL novel Daemon World. The definition of crone world just means a pre-Fall Eldar world that has since become caught in a warp/realspace overlap. All former Eldar worlds in the Eye of Terror are now crone worlds. That however does not mean all crone worlds need to be in the Eye of Terror.

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.

The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.

Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'

I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.

Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.

The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.

Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.

They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.

The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.

I don't know if you are pretending to be obtuse to avoid admitting being wrong or whether you just don't get it. Crone worlds explicitly are Eldar empire worlds that were overwhelmed by the warp in the Fall. They are called crone worlds because they are both repositories of pre-Fall Eldar tech, knowledge, and because spirit stones coalesce on them and can be harvested. I have nowhere stated crone worlds must be taken by the Eye of Terror only. I have in fact explicitly given citation of a crone world NOT in the Eye of Terror. I get the feeling you are not reading what other people post and are just repeating your same false and wrong claims over and over as if repeating a falsehood long enough will make it true.

The Harlequin map as I have stated shows sites of interest to the Eldar, which includes pre-Fall sites and Commorragh satellite realms which themselves pre-date the Fall, NOT just Exodite worlds. You are stating something that is categorically false if anyone even so much as glances at that map that was cited. Any other readers can verify what I have claimed.

There is little point responding further to you if you are just going to keep repeating the same wrong things over without evidence and without having actually checked the sources cited, which you clearly have not. If you continue to do so I suspect you are in fact pretending to be obtuse on purpose and this is in fact trolling.

You haven't shown any evidence, the only evidence you have shown is a map that doesn't have anything in it you say, they map log shows webway locations exodite worlds, Imperial worlds and necron worlds. You have explicitly stated that croneworlds are worlds taken by the eye and also said they are outside the eye and have shown no evidence stating that so yeah I'm be acute when you show me proof lol I mean all the lore says that all crone worlds reside in the eye of terror.

"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium." 40k wiki

Also exodite worlds spanned the galaxy in that map, they were exodites because they 'left' the Eldar Empire, if you were right they would exist on the edges of the galaxy but they don't exodite worlds can be found next to the eye of terror.

"Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7

Now that the issue has been settled that the Eldar empire DID span the galaxy, I think we should turn back to the hypothetical of what if the Eldar empire had never fallen.

The issue is what are the conditions for never fallen. Do we mean a decadent empire like the Dark Eldar? Or do we mean an empire that never became decadent in the first place?

It might not be that different actually if it is the former, because a decadent empire that is internally focused on itself would not necessarily interfere with other races except for slave/pleasure raiding. Dark Eldar writ large may be unpleasant but the empire might be too indolent to actually do anything beyond safeguarding its existing interests. So long as humanity stayed clear of those, and absorbed the losses by raiding, humanity might still have been able to colonize across the galaxy.

Iracundus wrote:
Now that the issue has been settled that the Eldar empire DID span the galaxy, I think we should turn back to the hypothetical of what if the Eldar empire had never fallen.

The issue is what are the conditions for never fallen. Do we mean a decadent empire like the Dark Eldar? Or do we mean an empire that never became decadent in the first place?

The issue hasn't been settled lol

Conversely if the Eldar empire remained vibrant as in its heyday, then its galaxy spanning expanse would allow it to nip any emerging other empires in the bud since non-decadent Eldar would still be paying attention to the bigger picture. Though we know from the Gav Thorpe novels that even in the days of their rise and power, there were still alien races across the galaxy, just subservient or overshadowed by the Eldar. So again the Eldar were not bent on omnicidal extermination, but the opportunity for expansion might be more limited in such a case compared to a decadent empire that is no longer paying attention, since any power growing great enough to attract attention then might be squished.

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
You are shifting the goalposts there. It is one thing to say the Empire spanned the galaxy, but crone worlds are another matter since by definition crone worlds are worlds where there is now warpspace overlap, where psychic energy can coalesce into spirit stones. Those are 2 different claims. Crone worlds are found mostly in the Eye because that is one of the few places where there the warp spills out and overlaps with realspace. The BL novel Daemon World depics a world within the Maelstrom, which is also about almost a galactic radius from the Eye. Outside of such warpspace overlaps, you get Eldar ruins, but those are not crone worlds.

The map has already been cited. 7th edition Harlequin Codex p. 10-11. There are sites and ruins from the Empire across the galaxy.

Wrong, crone worlds are the 'original empire worlds'

I don't collect Harlequins can you post a picture of that map? Because it would have to against the lore if you are right.

Do you not get the distinction? Crone worlds are Eldar empire worlds that have since been overwhelmed by the warp. Not all Eldar empire worlds were overwhelmed by the warp. That is why the Imperium keeps finding Eldar ruins all over the galaxy. And I have already given another example from the BL novel Daemon World of an explicit Eldar crone world that is in the Maelstrom, which is half a galaxy length away from the Eye of Terror. That example in itself already disproves your claim.

The map in the Harlequin Codex does not go against the lore. You only think that because you are mistaken about what the actual extent of the Eldar empire was.

Posting copyrighted maps is not permitted. I have cited my sources down to the page number. You go look them up for yourself. Any other readers can verify my claims as I have provided all the information for them to do so.

They are not empire worlds that have 'since' been overwhelmed by the warp. You'd need to provide evidence stating that crone worlds are empire worlds taken by the eye of terror. They find exodite ruins all the time but you are contradicting yourself you are saying crone worlds are worlds that are taken by the eye yet the Imperium keep finding eldar worlds outside the eye.

The map on the harlequin codex shows the webay locations and exodite worlds and its a map of the 41st millennium.

I'm not seeing the contradiction. Crone world is a special term for Eldar planets consumed by the Eye of Terror. The other Eldar worlds that were destroyed would be Exodite, Maiden or other kinds of planet. Exodite ruins are from things like Exodite Worlds that other races have since colonised.

Crone worlds do not have to be in the Eye of Terror. There is an example of one in the Maelstrom as I have repeatedly cited from the BL novel Daemon World. The definition of crone world just means a pre-Fall Eldar world that has since become caught in a warp/realspace overlap. All former Eldar worlds in the Eye of Terror are now crone worlds. That however does not mean all crone worlds need to be in the Eye of Terror.

Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?

pm713 wrote:

Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?

Pretty much, though it would be a rare GW reference to anything out of the Eye since GW likes dealing in stereotypes and generalities. The BL novel Daemon World is one exception.

The other key factor that differentiates the Eldar empire from other races is their use of the Webway, which renders realspace geographical proximity potentially meaningless. Worlds could be on opposite ends of the galaxy in realspace but be "next doors" to each other in the Webway. The intervening realspace may not be considered relevant by the Eldar if all they normally have to do is stroll from one Webway gate to another. That is precisely how the satellite realms of Commorragh work for example. Realms that are far in realspace terms were made continuous with each other by being connected with Webway gates, some of which are effectively jammed open permanently.

Thus the old Eldar empire did not have to be a volume occupying empire. In other words, they may have literally not cared about what happened in the space (or who settled other worlds in that area) between their worlds, since the only connection that mattered was their Webway connection. A polity that is contiguous in Webway connection terms may appear in realspace as scattered worlds with no clear spatial relationship.

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?

Pretty much, though it would be a rare GW reference to anything out of the Eye since GW likes dealing in stereotypes and generalities. The BL novel Daemon World is one exception.

The other key factor that differentiates the Eldar empire from other races is their use of the Webway, which renders realspace geographical proximity potentially meaningless. Worlds could be on opposite ends of the galaxy in realspace but be "next doors" to each other in the Webway. The intervening realspace may not be considered relevant by the Eldar if all they normally have to do is stroll from one Webway gate to another. That is precisely how the satellite realms of Commorragh work for example. Realms that are far in realspace terms were made continuous with each other by being connected with Webway gates, some of which are effectively jammed open permanently.

Thus the old Eldar empire did not have to be a volume occupying empire. In other words, they may have literally not cared about what happened in the space (or who settled other worlds in that area) between their worlds, since the only connection that mattered was their Webway connection. A polity that is contiguous in Webway connection terms may appear in realspace as scattered worlds with no clear spatial relationship.

Now who's moving the goal posts. The only worlds outside of the eye are maiden worlds, which can be found right next to the eye. The exodite's worlds are said to have been far away from the Eldar empire. The empire had connections in the webway in which they can traverse the galaxy, nowhere does it say they expanded their empire so far. The Imperium has access routes all over the galaxy, it doesn't mean just because the warp can get them from point a to b that their empire spans the whole galaxy. The webway went to the moon, doesn't mean their empire included mankind's.

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?

Pretty much, though it would be a rare GW reference to anything out of the Eye since GW likes dealing in stereotypes and generalities. The BL novel Daemon World is one exception.

The other key factor that differentiates the Eldar empire from other races is their use of the Webway, which renders realspace geographical proximity potentially meaningless. Worlds could be on opposite ends of the galaxy in realspace but be "next doors" to each other in the Webway. The intervening realspace may not be considered relevant by the Eldar if all they normally have to do is stroll from one Webway gate to another. That is precisely how the satellite realms of Commorragh work for example. Realms that are far in realspace terms were made continuous with each other by being connected with Webway gates, some of which are effectively jammed open permanently.

Thus the old Eldar empire did not have to be a volume occupying empire. In other words, they may have literally not cared about what happened in the space (or who settled other worlds in that area) between their worlds, since the only connection that mattered was their Webway connection. A polity that is contiguous in Webway connection terms may appear in realspace as scattered worlds with no clear spatial relationship.

I'd have thought they'd still conduct the initial expansions in a more normal way though. They had to send colony ships through normal space to actually make the Webway portals so if you're going to planet C then you may as well go via planets A and B. Plus if I remember right somewhere it's mentioned that some Eldar did prefer to build their palaces and such in realspace. I think it's Path of the Ranger.

pm713 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?

Pretty much, though it would be a rare GW reference to anything out of the Eye since GW likes dealing in stereotypes and generalities. The BL novel Daemon World is one exception.

The other key factor that differentiates the Eldar empire from other races is their use of the Webway, which renders realspace geographical proximity potentially meaningless. Worlds could be on opposite ends of the galaxy in realspace but be "next doors" to each other in the Webway. The intervening realspace may not be considered relevant by the Eldar if all they normally have to do is stroll from one Webway gate to another. That is precisely how the satellite realms of Commorragh work for example. Realms that are far in realspace terms were made continuous with each other by being connected with Webway gates, some of which are effectively jammed open permanently.

Thus the old Eldar empire did not have to be a volume occupying empire. In other words, they may have literally not cared about what happened in the space (or who settled other worlds in that area) between their worlds, since the only connection that mattered was their Webway connection. A polity that is contiguous in Webway connection terms may appear in realspace as scattered worlds with no clear spatial relationship.

I'd have thought they'd still conduct the initial expansions in a more normal way though. They had to send colony ships through normal space to actually make the Webway portals so if you're going to planet C then you may as well go via planets A and B. Plus if I remember right somewhere it's mentioned that some Eldar did prefer to build their palaces and such in realspace. I think it's Path of the Ranger.

The Dark Eldar Codex said it was the nobles that first built the satellite realms in the Webway. Presumably that means engineering your own pocket realm takes resources beyond the reach of your average pre-Fall Eldar.

As for their expansion pattern, it may have started out that way, explaining the greater concentration in what is now the Eye of Terror. Once the Eldar were secure however, they seem to have been more picky. I mean they seeded Maiden worlds and were willing to wait for them to mature according to design rather than settle for anything less than an engineered paradise. We don't seem to find any examples of marginally inhabitable worlds like the Imperium settles. Worlds like Taros for example.

There is no requirement that Webway portals have to be on a planet. They also exist in the depths of space for Eldar ships to use. The expanding Eldar therefore did not have to settle every planet in the vicinity. Settle planet C, plonk a few Webway gates in space as stop over points if need be to get to planet D. Ignore planets A and B which are hellholes by comparison to planet C.

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Ah, so all former Eldar worlds in the Warp are Crone worlds. So everything in the Eye is a Crone World but not all Crone Worlds are in the Eye?

Pretty much, though it would be a rare GW reference to anything out of the Eye since GW likes dealing in stereotypes and generalities. The BL novel Daemon World is one exception.

The other key factor that differentiates the Eldar empire from other races is their use of the Webway, which renders realspace geographical proximity potentially meaningless. Worlds could be on opposite ends of the galaxy in realspace but be "next doors" to each other in the Webway. The intervening realspace may not be considered relevant by the Eldar if all they normally have to do is stroll from one Webway gate to another. That is precisely how the satellite realms of Commorragh work for example. Realms that are far in realspace terms were made continuous with each other by being connected with Webway gates, some of which are effectively jammed open permanently.

Thus the old Eldar empire did not have to be a volume occupying empire. In other words, they may have literally not cared about what happened in the space (or who settled other worlds in that area) between their worlds, since the only connection that mattered was their Webway connection. A polity that is contiguous in Webway connection terms may appear in realspace as scattered worlds with no clear spatial relationship.

I'd have thought they'd still conduct the initial expansions in a more normal way though. They had to send colony ships through normal space to actually make the Webway portals so if you're going to planet C then you may as well go via planets A and B. Plus if I remember right somewhere it's mentioned that some Eldar did prefer to build their palaces and such in realspace. I think it's Path of the Ranger.

The Dark Eldar Codex said it was the nobles that first built the satellite realms in the Webway. Presumably that means engineering your own pocket realm takes resources beyond the reach of your average pre-Fall Eldar.

As for their expansion pattern, it may have started out that way, explaining the greater concentration in what is now the Eye of Terror. Once the Eldar were secure however, they seem to have been more picky. I mean they seeded Maiden worlds and were willing to wait for them to mature according to design rather than settle for anything less than an engineered paradise. We don't seem to find any examples of marginally inhabitable worlds like the Imperium settles. Worlds like Taros for example.

There is no requirement that Webway portals have to be on a planet. They also exist in the depths of space for Eldar ships to use. The expanding Eldar therefore did not have to settle every planet in the vicinity. Settle planet C, plonk a few Webway gates in space as stop over points if need be to get to planet D. Ignore planets A and B which are hellholes by comparison to planet C.

What was the crone world called in daemon world? The world in the book is called Torvendis and nothing is said of it being a crone world that I can find.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Them starting their decadence is irrelevant. No where does it say they 'allowed' mankind to spread.

Actually, it's mentionned in the 4th eddition condex that the Eldar at the end of the War in Heaven had the complete mastery of the galaxy despite occupying only 10K worlds. Their vast fleets were plying the stars and purging any menace to their rule. It also mentionned that mankind spread through the galaxy during hte dark age of technology thanks to their alliance with the Eldars who allowed them to do so in their indolence, without even thinking that one day they could be a menace.

The Eldar Empire was at full strength before the lore, you are just making up what you want the lore to be. Forgotten to war, again that's just your head cannon. They still had automatons that could fight for them.

That's what I meant by forgotten war. Eldars during the Age of Strife, were content in leaving their automaton psychically controled to wage war in their place. They had lost the habit to train for and practice war. They had no tactical or strategical acumen. Their construct were so powerful and so numerous they could basically crush any opposition without having them lift a figger. Eldars themsevles haven't been threaten by wars in millennias. Eldars as a civilisation waged wars, but Eldars as people did not. To them the reality of war were about as real the reality of dying in childbirth is for me.

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Them starting their decadence is irrelevant. No where does it say they 'allowed' mankind to spread.

Actually, it's mentionned in the 4th eddition condex that the Eldar at the end of the War in Heaven had the complete mastery of the galaxy despite occupying only 10K worlds. Their vast fleets were plying the stars and purging any menace to their rule. It also mentionned that mankind spread through the galaxy during hte dark age of technology thanks to their alliance with the Eldars who allowed them to do so in their indolence, without even thinking that one day they could be a menace.

The Eldar Empire was at full strength before the lore, you are just making up what you want the lore to be. Forgotten to war, again that's just your head cannon. They still had automatons that could fight for them.

That's what I meant by forgotten war. Eldars during the Age of Strife, were content in leaving their automaton psychically controled to wage war in their place. They had lost the habit to train for and practice war. They had no tactical or strategical acumen. Their construct were so powerful and so numerous they could basically crush any opposition without having them lift a figger. Eldars themsevles haven't been threaten by wars in millennias. Eldars as a civilisation waged wars, but Eldars as people did not. To them the reality of war were about as real the reality of dying in childbirth is for me.

Can you quote the 4th edition bit? Mastery does not necessarily mean dominance over the galaxy or that they spanned the whole galaxy, i.e mastery of the webway but they didn't span the galaxy, so I would just put that down to 'they probably could if they wanted to' or that 'nothing could block their progress' etc. I mean many exodite worlds were also swallowed by the eye of terror and again they were far away from the Empire.

Just because they didn't wage war doesn't mean that they wouldn't have to if there was a sufficient threat. Its even said that there were no serious wars or threats towards the Eldar up until the fall and just saying they could wipe out anyone if they wanted to doesn't make it so. Mankind never went to war with the Eldar at that time, no one here has any evidence suggesting either side would win but all the Eldar fans are all asserting that the Eldar would win, without much evidence. I mean I think the eldar would probably win against mankind during the DAOT, but I'm not asserting that.

To answer the OP... I believe the old ones would have returned to look after us ickle eldars and be our parents.

Commented on the wrong thread...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Them starting their decadence is irrelevant. No where does it say they 'allowed' mankind to spread.

Actually, it's mentionned in the 4th eddition condex that the Eldar at the end of the War in Heaven had the complete mastery of the galaxy despite occupying only 10K worlds. Their vast fleets were plying the stars and purging any menace to their rule. It also mentionned that mankind spread through the galaxy during hte dark age of technology thanks to their alliance with the Eldars who allowed them to do so in their indolence, without even thinking that one day they could be a menace.

The Eldar Empire was at full strength before the lore, you are just making up what you want the lore to be. Forgotten to war, again that's just your head cannon. They still had automatons that could fight for them.

That's what I meant by forgotten war. Eldars during the Age of Strife, were content in leaving their automaton psychically controled to wage war in their place. They had lost the habit to train for and practice war. They had no tactical or strategical acumen. Their construct were so powerful and so numerous they could basically crush any opposition without having them lift a figger. Eldars themsevles haven't been threaten by wars in millennias. Eldars as a civilisation waged wars, but Eldars as people did not. To them the reality of war were about as real the reality of dying in childbirth is for me.

Can you quote the 4th edition bit? Mastery does not necessarily mean dominance over the galaxy or that they spanned the whole galaxy, i.e mastery of the webway but they didn't span the galaxy, so I would just put that down to 'they probably could if they wanted to' or that 'nothing could block their progress' etc. I mean many exodite worlds were also swallowed by the eye of terror and again they were far away from the Empire.

Just because they didn't wage war doesn't mean that they wouldn't have to if there was a sufficient threat. Its even said that there were no serious wars or threats towards the Eldar up until the fall and just saying they could wipe out anyone if they wanted to doesn't make it so. Mankind never went to war with the Eldar at that time, no one here has any evidence suggesting either side would win but all the Eldar fans are all asserting that the Eldar would win, without much evidence. I mean I think the eldar would probably win against mankind during the DAOT, but I'm not asserting that.

And you would be right, in fact you have been right about everything so far, and the reason you cannot find a reference to the planet in Deamon world being a crone world is because it is not, its a sentient Eldar maiden world that has been broken to the will of the chaos gods and the marine that did it wants his soul back from the gods and frees the planet leading to its destruction, we dont know if he got his soul back sadly.

anyway, that gets rid of his one and only example of a "crone" world outside the eldar empires borders, since its not a crone world, its a maiden world corrupted by chaos, not the same thing since it can fight off that corruption, it eats a deamon prince IIRC too which is kinda funny.

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Them starting their decadence is irrelevant. No where does it say they 'allowed' mankind to spread.

Actually, it's mentionned in the 4th eddition condex that the Eldar at the end of the War in Heaven had the complete mastery of the galaxy despite occupying only 10K worlds. Their vast fleets were plying the stars and purging any menace to their rule. It also mentionned that mankind spread through the galaxy during hte dark age of technology thanks to their alliance with the Eldars who allowed them to do so in their indolence, without even thinking that one day they could be a menace.

The Eldar Empire was at full strength before the lore, you are just making up what you want the lore to be. Forgotten to war, again that's just your head cannon. They still had automatons that could fight for them.

That's what I meant by forgotten war. Eldars during the Age of Strife, were content in leaving their automaton psychically controled to wage war in their place. They had lost the habit to train for and practice war. They had no tactical or strategical acumen. Their construct were so powerful and so numerous they could basically crush any opposition without having them lift a figger. Eldars themsevles haven't been threaten by wars in millennias. Eldars as a civilisation waged wars, but Eldars as people did not. To them the reality of war were about as real the reality of dying in childbirth is for me.

Can you quote the 4th edition bit? Mastery does not necessarily mean dominance over the galaxy or that they spanned the whole galaxy, i.e mastery of the webway but they didn't span the galaxy, so I would just put that down to 'they probably could if they wanted to' or that 'nothing could block their progress' etc. I mean many exodite worlds were also swallowed by the eye of terror and again they were far away from the Empire.

Just because they didn't wage war doesn't mean that they wouldn't have to if there was a sufficient threat. Its even said that there were no serious wars or threats towards the Eldar up until the fall and just saying they could wipe out anyone if they wanted to doesn't make it so. Mankind never went to war with the Eldar at that time, no one here has any evidence suggesting either side would win but all the Eldar fans are all asserting that the Eldar would win, without much evidence. I mean I think the eldar would probably win against mankind during the DAOT, but I'm not asserting that.

And you would be right, in fact you have been right about everything so far, and the reason you cannot find a reference to the planet in Deamon world being a crone world is because it is not, its a sentient Eldar maiden world that has been broken to the will of the chaos gods and the marine that did it wants his soul back from the gods and frees the planet leading to its destruction, we dont know if he got his soul back sadly.

anyway, that gets rid of his one and only example of a "crone" world outside the eldar empires borders, since its not a crone world, its a maiden world corrupted by chaos, not the same thing since it can fight off that corruption, it eats a deamon prince IIRC too which is kinda funny.

Yeah I thought so, he also said that the Harlequin codex showed the old eldar empire, which it doesn't at all. I would suggest head cannon but...

What is canon is that the Fall happened because the Eldar were not challenged in the galaxy.

What is also canon is that the DAoT happened before the Fall.

Further, it is also canon that Eldar interacted with Mankind pre-fall. Substantially.

Therefore, regardless of the details, the DAoT did not challenge the Eldar empire.

Bharring wrote:
What is canon is that the Fall happened because the Eldar were not challenged in the galaxy.

What is also canon is that the DAoT happened before the Fall.

Further, it is also canon that Eldar interacted with Mankind pre-fall. Substantially.

Therefore, regardless of the details, the DAoT did not challenge the Eldar empire.

The Imperium and Eldar interact in the 41st mellenium, doesn't mean that the Eldar don't challange the Imperium. You don;t even know what the interaction entailed. They did not interact substantially though.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Bharring wrote:
What is canon is that the Fall happened because the Eldar were not challenged in the galaxy.

What is also canon is that the DAoT happened before the Fall.

Further, it is also canon that Eldar interacted with Mankind pre-fall. Substantially.

Therefore, regardless of the details, the DAoT did not challenge the Eldar empire.

The Imperium and Eldar interact in the 41st mellenium, doesn't mean that the Eldar don't challange the Imperium. You don;t even know what the interaction entailed. They did not interact substantially though.

Eldar "challenge" the IoM all the time. Fights between the two happen regularly.

As for interaction during the DAoT, we know:
1. The Eldar were present in the Sol system
2. The Eldar studied Mankind's development
3. The Eldar were not challenged before the Fall
4. The Fall happened long after the DAoT

It's hard to accept that the Eldar were in the Sol system, were looking for a challenge, interacted with Mankind during DAoT, didn't find a challege in the DAoT, but somehow the Eldar couldn't stand up to DAoT. Obviously, at least one of those must be bunk - and DAoT standing up to pre-Fall Eldar is the only one that isn't supported in the fluff.