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Delvarus Centurion wrote: That is the lore, you made the claim that is because they were unchallenged so you have to provide the evidence, which you can't because its not true. .
How can they be challenged if they have an unparalled mastery of the galaxy? They had no equals or rivals. That's what an unparalled mastery of the galaxy means. No one could challenge their mastery of the galaxy. They didn't occupied all of it much like the imperium only occupies a minuscule part of it (it's just a million worlds in a galaxy of over 200 millions stars), but what they didn't occupied they either controled or had a great influence on (else we can't call that a mastery of the galaxy). Where does it says in the fluff that Eldars had serious rivals or even challengers?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 14:51:31
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror
If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world.
, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
The Sol system is the IoM's Homeworlds - but certainly isn't the entirety of the Empire.
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
Lots of Exodite worlds in lots of places.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
This is suggestive, but not conclusive.
There's no reason to assume the Eldar Empire must have been a sphere in realspace - in fact, there's no reason to discount it being noncontigious at all. So one "fringe" could be a stone's throw from the original homeworlds, while the Empire could (in theory) stretch halfway across the galaxy.
After all, if you're saying the Exodites were always right on the fringe of the Empire, then the Empire must have stretched to just short of *every* Exodite world - and those are scattered across the galaxy.
Now, I think it's reasonable that the Eldar empire core worlds / habitated worlds was rather small relative to the size of their domain - quite possibly mostly within the Eye of Terror itself - the fluff isn't 100% clear on that.
Further, the Eldar Empire only habitating a core set of worlds doesn't mean they lacked dominion on a larger area. Alexander could have travelled to Russia, sure. But the Denarian League had a hegemony well beyond Athens itself. And the British Empire had direct dominion on places across the globe while being an island.
"If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world."
what are you talking about, I stated that all crone worlds are in the eye of terror.
The point is that it's meaningless; you're arguing that every Eldar world absorbed by the Eye of Terror was inside the Eye of Terror. That has no bearing on any world that wasn't in the Eye of Terror.
It is conclusive its in the lore, deny it all you want unless you provide a conflicting source you are just deny for the sake of being right.
The eldar were in a sphere of REAL space.
Certainly. But they also used the Webway, too. And some had even moved in there pre-Fall, but that wasn't the point; the point was the closest route from point A to B, for a webway-capable race, is not necessarily the distance between A and B. So it's possible a system halfway across the galaxy is closer than the next system over.
No the exodites LEFT the empire.
Certainly. To settle on it's fringes. Which included settlements on the other side of the galaxy - not all Exodite worlds were near the eye, physically.
No the British empire had troops all over its empire. The Eldar could have had dominion over the whole galaxy but they DIDN'T.
There's no reason to believe the Eldar *didn't* have forces all over the galaxy. Which is a lot easier when the Webway makes much of the galaxy a much smaller place.
[...]
The fall did NOT happen because the Eldar were unchallenged before the fall they were busy fighting orks from their Empire etc.
Source? How does one become decadent due to lack of challenge, without being unchallenged?
Slanesh wasn't born out of desperation; he/she was born out of a hunger for challenge. It's Slanesh, not Khorne.
The fall was due to them having no purpose at all, not because they were unchallenged. They didn't even work they had all their needs taken care of that is why they became decadent. That is the lore, you made the claim that is because they were unchallenged so you have to provide the evidence, which you can't because its not true. .
A challenge is a purpose (albeit not the only one), especially for the Eldar. So if they had a challenge they had a purpose. Thus, to have no purpose they must, necessarily, have no challenge.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 14:48:59
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror
If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world.
, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
The Sol system is the IoM's Homeworlds - but certainly isn't the entirety of the Empire.
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
Lots of Exodite worlds in lots of places.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
This is suggestive, but not conclusive.
There's no reason to assume the Eldar Empire must have been a sphere in realspace - in fact, there's no reason to discount it being noncontigious at all. So one "fringe" could be a stone's throw from the original homeworlds, while the Empire could (in theory) stretch halfway across the galaxy.
After all, if you're saying the Exodites were always right on the fringe of the Empire, then the Empire must have stretched to just short of *every* Exodite world - and those are scattered across the galaxy.
Now, I think it's reasonable that the Eldar empire core worlds / habitated worlds was rather small relative to the size of their domain - quite possibly mostly within the Eye of Terror itself - the fluff isn't 100% clear on that.
Further, the Eldar Empire only habitating a core set of worlds doesn't mean they lacked dominion on a larger area. Alexander could have travelled to Russia, sure. But the Denarian League had a hegemony well beyond Athens itself. And the British Empire had direct dominion on places across the globe while being an island.
"If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world."
what are you talking about, I stated that all crone worlds are in the eye of terror.
The point is that it's meaningless; you're arguing that every Eldar world absorbed by the Eye of Terror was inside the Eye of Terror. That has no bearing on any world that wasn't in the Eye of Terror.
It is conclusive its in the lore, deny it all you want unless you provide a conflicting source you are just deny for the sake of being right.
The eldar were in a sphere of REAL space.
Certainly. But they also used the Webway, too. And some had even moved in there pre-Fall, but that wasn't the point; the point was the closest route from point A to B, for a webway-capable race, is not necessarily the distance between A and B. So it's possible a system halfway across the galaxy is closer than the next system over.
No the exodites LEFT the empire.
Certainly. To settle on it's fringes. Which included settlements on the other side of the galaxy - not all Exodite worlds were near the eye, physically.
No the British empire had troops all over its empire. The Eldar could have had dominion over the whole galaxy but they DIDN'T.
There's no reason to believe the Eldar *didn't* have forces all over the galaxy. Which is a lot easier when the Webway makes much of the galaxy a much smaller place.
[...]
The fall did NOT happen because the Eldar were unchallenged before the fall they were busy fighting orks from their Empire etc.
Source? How does one become decadent due to lack of challenge, without being unchallenged?
Slanesh wasn't born out of desperation; he/she was born out of a hunger for challenge. It's Slanesh, not Khorne.
The fall was due to them having no purpose at all, not because they were unchallenged. They didn't even work they had all their needs taken care of that is why they became decadent. That is the lore, you made the claim that is because they were unchallenged so you have to provide the evidence, which you can't because its not true. .
A challenge is a purpose (albeit not the only one), especially for the Eldar. So if they had a challenge they had a purpose. Thus, to have no purpose they must, necessarily, have no challenge.
I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing that every Empire (crone worlds) were absorbed by the eye of terror which is fact. I never said crone worlds existed outside the eye of terror. if you aren't going to read all my comments I'm not going to continue arguing with you.
No the empire did not stretch to the exodite worlds, the exodite worlds LEFT the empire.
Not all were near the eye physically but even if they were only one near the eye that also proves that the empire is and was where the eye of terror was as the maiden worlds were on and past the fringes of the empire.
Okay prove they had forces all over the galaxy then. I'm interested in lore not 'what if' or 'there probably was'
Again no, they did not fall because they had no challenge that your head cannon.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 14:57:20
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Okay prove they had forces all over the galaxy then. I'm interested in lore not 'what if' or 'there probably was'
Again no, they did not fall because they had no challenge that your head cannon.
They had an unparalled mastery of the galaxy.
You can't have a mastery of something if you can't control pretty much all aspect of something.
It's also mentionned that the Orks were regularly culled by the Eldar automaton warriors. Since Orks are pretty much everywhere, this needed forces a bit everywhere in the galaxy. Maiden worlds which are scattered around the galaxy, are built. It thus require fleets of terraforming ships and engine and troops to secure them if need be.
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror
If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world.
, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
The Sol system is the IoM's Homeworlds - but certainly isn't the entirety of the Empire.
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
Lots of Exodite worlds in lots of places.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
This is suggestive, but not conclusive.
There's no reason to assume the Eldar Empire must have been a sphere in realspace - in fact, there's no reason to discount it being noncontigious at all. So one "fringe" could be a stone's throw from the original homeworlds, while the Empire could (in theory) stretch halfway across the galaxy.
After all, if you're saying the Exodites were always right on the fringe of the Empire, then the Empire must have stretched to just short of *every* Exodite world - and those are scattered across the galaxy.
Now, I think it's reasonable that the Eldar empire core worlds / habitated worlds was rather small relative to the size of their domain - quite possibly mostly within the Eye of Terror itself - the fluff isn't 100% clear on that.
Further, the Eldar Empire only habitating a core set of worlds doesn't mean they lacked dominion on a larger area. Alexander could have travelled to Russia, sure. But the Denarian League had a hegemony well beyond Athens itself. And the British Empire had direct dominion on places across the globe while being an island.
"If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world."
what are you talking about, I stated that all crone worlds are in the eye of terror.
The point is that it's meaningless; you're arguing that every Eldar world absorbed by the Eye of Terror was inside the Eye of Terror. That has no bearing on any world that wasn't in the Eye of Terror.
It is conclusive its in the lore, deny it all you want unless you provide a conflicting source you are just deny for the sake of being right.
The eldar were in a sphere of REAL space.
Certainly. But they also used the Webway, too. And some had even moved in there pre-Fall, but that wasn't the point; the point was the closest route from point A to B, for a webway-capable race, is not necessarily the distance between A and B. So it's possible a system halfway across the galaxy is closer than the next system over.
No the exodites LEFT the empire.
Certainly. To settle on it's fringes. Which included settlements on the other side of the galaxy - not all Exodite worlds were near the eye, physically.
No the British empire had troops all over its empire. The Eldar could have had dominion over the whole galaxy but they DIDN'T.
There's no reason to believe the Eldar *didn't* have forces all over the galaxy. Which is a lot easier when the Webway makes much of the galaxy a much smaller place.
[...]
The fall did NOT happen because the Eldar were unchallenged before the fall they were busy fighting orks from their Empire etc.
Source? How does one become decadent due to lack of challenge, without being unchallenged?
Slanesh wasn't born out of desperation; he/she was born out of a hunger for challenge. It's Slanesh, not Khorne.
The fall was due to them having no purpose at all, not because they were unchallenged. They didn't even work they had all their needs taken care of that is why they became decadent. That is the lore, you made the claim that is because they were unchallenged so you have to provide the evidence, which you can't because its not true. .
A challenge is a purpose (albeit not the only one), especially for the Eldar. So if they had a challenge they had a purpose. Thus, to have no purpose they must, necessarily, have no challenge.
I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing that every Empire (crone worlds) were absorbed by the eye of terror which is fact.
All worlds that are now Crone Worlds were absorbed by the Eye of Terror. Tautalogical - it's the definition of Crone World, so is true by definition. Adds nothing.
No fluff says that every world in the Empire became a Crone World. You are conflating the two.
I never said crone worlds existed outside the eye of terror. if you aren't going to read all my comments I'm not going to continue arguing with you.
As above, you're making arguments based on the idea that every former Empire world is now a Crone World. That's where things are falling aparat.
No the empire did not stretch to the exodite worlds, the exodite worlds LEFT the empire.
And settled on it's fringes - which means the Empire's fringes extended to every Exodite world.
Not all were near the eye physically but even if they were only one near the eye that also proves that the empire is and was where the eye of terror was
It means that some of the fringes of the Empire were near the eye, whereas other fringes were not. Which can mean a couple different things:
1. That the Empire wasn't anywhere near spherical
2. That the "fringe" of the Empire shifted over time
3. Or, that these worlds weren't necessarily on the fringe of the Emprie (which would challenge canon)
The first two demand that the Empire indeed be massive before the Fall. The third would mean the placement of Exodite worlds wouldn't matter.
as the maiden worlds were on and past the fringes of the empire.
There were certainly unsettled Maiden worlds, intended to become Eldar (Empire or Exodite) worlds in the future - but there were also *Exodite* worlds that far away. As above, that means the fringe of the Empire went that far.
Okay prove they had forces all over the galaxy then. I'm interested in lore not 'what if' or 'there probably was'
You argued that they *didn't* have *forces* all over the galaxy. I'm saying we don't know whether they had standing forces all over the galaxy.
Again no, they did not fall because they had no challenge that your head cannon.
That's not headcanon. You even posted yourself accepting that they Fell because they had no purpose, and now you're dismissing it as headcanon?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Okay prove they had forces all over the galaxy then. I'm interested in lore not 'what if' or 'there probably was'
Again no, they did not fall because they had no challenge that your head cannon.
They had an unparalled mastery of the galaxy.
You can't have a mastery of something if you can't control pretty much all aspect of something.
It's also mentionned that the Orks were regularly culled by the Eldar automaton warriors. Since Orks are pretty much everywhere, this needed forces a bit everywhere in the galaxy. Maiden worlds which are scattered around the galaxy, are built. It thus require fleets of terraforming ships and engine and troops to secure them if need be.
I've already stated that I believe they probably 'could' have dominance over the galaxy but they didn't, they had the ability to dominate the galaxy, which I already conceded (I really wish people would read the thread before commenting) but they DIDN'T dominate the galaxy, they stayed in their empire.
So your argument is that, while the Eldar were the "unparalleled masters of the galaxy" and "held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy", they didn't dominate the galaxy, and just stayed inside their insignificant part of it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 15:17:47
Bharring wrote: So your argument is that, while the Eldar were the "unparalleled masters of the galaxy" and "held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy", they didn't dominate the galaxy, and just stayed inside their insignificant part of it?
No, I'm saying their Empire was within the space that became the eye of terror, which is fact and that they were most likely unparalleled masters but they did NOT span or conquer the whole galaxy, which they didn't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 15:29:02
8th Ed. Codex, pg 43 Crone Worlds "When the central worlds of the Aeldari empire were overwhelmed by the rift in time and space known as the Eye of Terror. . . "
Not all Aeldari worlds were enveloped in the Eye of Terror. The "central worlds" were. Like if modern day Italy sank into the ocean, that wouldn't encompass the entirety of the Roman Empire.
What is interesting to note however, is that the word "central" was added to the passage that appears to be otherwise mostly identical as the Crone Worlds description in the original 2nd Ed. Eldar Codex. (all instances of "Eldar" has also been changed to "Aeldari")
Bharring wrote: So your argument is that, while the Eldar were the "unparalleled masters of the galaxy" and "held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy", they didn't dominate the galaxy, and just stayed inside their insignificant part of it?
No, I'm saying their Empire was within the space that became the eye of terror, which is fact and that they were most likely unparalleled masters but they did NOT span or conquer the whole galaxy, which they didn't.
Why do you struggle with the fact that the Eldar Empire was beyond the eye of terror? It's very clearly not restrained to the eye.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Insectum7 wrote: 8th Ed. Codex, pg 43 Crone Worlds "When the central worlds of the Aeldari empire were overwhelmed by the rift in time and space known as the Eye of Terror. . . "
Not all Aeldari worlds were enveloped in the Eye of Terror. The "central worlds" were. Like if modern day Italy sank into the ocean, that wouldn't encompass the entirety of the Roman Empire.
What is interesting to note however, is that the word "central" was added to the passage that appears to be otherwise mostly identical as the Crone Worlds description in the original 2nd Ed. Eldar Codex. (all instances of "Eldar" has also been changed to "Aeldari")
Even that is reading too far into sentence structure.
"When the warships of the United States were hit by the attack at Pearl Harbor [...]" is a valid statement - it doesn't mean *all* American warships were hit. It's a statement about the warships that were hit there.
Likewise, even without 'central' in that sentence, it doesn't necessitate that the sentence speaks to *all* the worlds of the Eldar Empire.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: . . . but they did NOT span or conquer the whole galaxy, which they didn't.
Codex Eldar 8th Ed, pg 9 ". . . the Aeldari must also contend with a galaxy that is no longer theirs." As in, it was theirs before the fall.
The Age of Technology also saw mankind expanding to colonies across the galaxy, but they weren't a threat to the Eldar, though they often had contact with them. The Eldar in general apparently just didn't care that humans (or anyone else) was there. To them it was like tribes of monkeys building societies and fighting wars in the "Empire" of the Congo.
Insectum7 wrote: 8th Ed. Codex, pg 43 Crone Worlds "When the central worlds of the Aeldari empire were overwhelmed by the rift in time and space known as the Eye of Terror. . . "
Not all Aeldari worlds were enveloped in the Eye of Terror. The "central worlds" were. Like if modern day Italy sank into the ocean, that wouldn't encompass the entirety of the Roman Empire.
What is interesting to note however, is that the word "central" was added to the passage that appears to be otherwise mostly identical as the Crone Worlds description in the original 2nd Ed. Eldar Codex. (all instances of "Eldar" has also been changed to "Aeldari")
Even that is reading too far into sentence structure.
"When the warships of the United States were hit by the attack at Pearl Harbor [...]" is a valid statement - it doesn't mean *all* American warships were hit. It's a statement about the warships that were hit there.
Likewise, even without 'central' in that sentence, it doesn't necessitate that the sentence speaks to *all* the worlds of the Eldar Empire.
Ahh true, true. A reasonable point. There are statements here and there that are a little open and more ambiguous, but taken altogether they paint a pretty clear picture, imo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 17:12:51
Delvarus Centurion wrote: . . . but they did NOT span or conquer the whole galaxy, which they didn't.
Codex Eldar 8th Ed, pg 9 ". . . the Aeldari must also contend with a galaxy that is no longer theirs." As in, it was theirs before the fall.
The Age of Technology also saw mankind expanding to colonies across the galaxy, but they weren't a threat to the Eldar, though they often had contact with them. The Eldar in general apparently just didn't care that humans (or anyone else) was there. To them it was like tribes of monkeys building societies and fighting wars in the "Empire" of the Congo.
Insectum7 wrote: 8th Ed. Codex, pg 43 Crone Worlds "When the central worlds of the Aeldari empire were overwhelmed by the rift in time and space known as the Eye of Terror. . . "
Not all Aeldari worlds were enveloped in the Eye of Terror. The "central worlds" were. Like if modern day Italy sank into the ocean, that wouldn't encompass the entirety of the Roman Empire.
What is interesting to note however, is that the word "central" was added to the passage that appears to be otherwise mostly identical as the Crone Worlds description in the original 2nd Ed. Eldar Codex. (all instances of "Eldar" has also been changed to "Aeldari")
Even that is reading too far into sentence structure.
"When the warships of the United States were hit by the attack at Pearl Harbor [...]" is a valid statement - it doesn't mean *all* American warships were hit. It's a statement about the warships that were hit there.
Likewise, even without 'central' in that sentence, it doesn't necessitate that the sentence speaks to *all* the worlds of the Eldar Empire.
Ahh true, true. A reasonable point. There are statements here and there that are a little open and more ambiguous, but taken altogether they paint a pretty clear picture, imo.
Doesn't say whole galaxy, that statement would be true if they had a majority of the galaxy. Though I'm out, if you's are going to go against the lore I'm no longer interested in debating with you's. I mean unless you can show a crone world exists outside the eye then I'm done.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 17:34:20
Doesn't say whole galaxy, that statement would be true if they had a majority of the galaxy. Though I'm out, if you's are going to go against the lore I'm no longer interested in debating with you's. I mean unless you can show a crone world exists outside the eye then I'm done.
Once again, you conflate Eldar Empire-held world with Crone World.
Imagine two practically-identical Eldar worlds. One was inside the Eye, the other outside. The first became a Crone World, the second did not.
Once again: a Crone World is *defined* as being an Eldar world swallowed by the warp. It is *not* a term for "Pre-Fall Eldar world".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 17:39:40
Doesn't say whole galaxy, that statement would be true if they had a majority of the galaxy. Though I'm out, if you's are going to go against the lore I'm no longer interested in debating with you's. I mean unless you can show a crone world exists outside the eye then I'm done.
Once again, you conflate Eldar Empire-held world with Crone World.
Imagine two practically-identical Eldar worlds. One was inside the Eye, the other outside. The first became a Crone World, the second did not.
Once again: a Crone World is *defined* as being an Eldar world swallowed by the warp. It is *not* a term for "Pre-Fall Eldar world".
Because you's haven't given one single shred of proof:
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
Also exodite worlds spanned the galaxy in that map, they were exodites because they 'left' the Eldar Empire, if you were right they would exist on the edges of the galaxy but they don't exodite worlds can be found next to the eye of terror.
"Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
I mean you can keep ignoring that due to your biases but I can't be bothered with that.
Doesn't say whole galaxy, that statement would be true if they had a majority of the galaxy. Though I'm out, if you's are going to go against the lore I'm no longer interested in debating with you's. I mean unless you can show a crone world exists outside the eye then I'm done.
Once again, you conflate Eldar Empire-held world with Crone World.
Imagine two practically-identical Eldar worlds. One was inside the Eye, the other outside. The first became a Crone World, the second did not.
Once again: a Crone World is *defined* as being an Eldar world swallowed by the warp. It is *not* a term for "Pre-Fall Eldar world".
Because you's haven't given one single shred of proof:
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
Also exodite worlds spanned the galaxy in that map, they were exodites because they 'left' the Eldar Empire, if you were right they would exist on the edges of the galaxy but they don't exodite worlds can be found next to the eye of terror.
"Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
I mean you can keep ignoring that due to your biases but I can't be bothered with that.
Exactly NONE of that says that Crone worlds were the only Eldar worlds.
Because you's haven't given one single shred of proof:
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
That quote shows that the Crone Worlds and Eldar Homeworlds were consumed by the Eye of Terror; it doesn't say - or even suggest - that all Eldar worlds were Crone Worlds and/or Eldar Homeworlds. Where are you getting that all Eldar worlds became Crone Worlds?
Also exodite worlds spanned the galaxy in that map, they were exodites because they 'left' the Eldar Empire, if you were right they would exist on the edges of the galaxy but they don't exodite worlds can be found next to the eye of terror.
"Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
I mean you can keep ignoring that due to your biases but I can't be bothered with that.
If the Exodites settled on the fringe of the Eldar Empire, and the Exodites settled in practically every segment of the galaxy, then didn't the fringes of the Eldar empire reach every segment (or near to)?
The fringes of the empire is the outer edges, can mean just outside (or just inside), or areas that could be considered either inside or outside. It doesn't mean half a galaxy away. So if Exodites all settled on the fringes of the Empire, and some of those settlements are on the other side of the galaxy, then the Empire must have stretched just short of there - in other words, well beyond the Eye.
You keep arguing that the Eldar empire must be limited to the Eye because there are Exodite worlds just outside of it and Exodites settled on the fringe - but those weren't the only Exodite worlds.
(Also, while the galaxy is drawn as a disk, an Empire exists in three dimensions - at any given [x,y] point in the galaxy where the Empire would be, there'd be at least two [x,y,z] points with the same [x,y] that would be it's boundary/fringe.)
It is true that the Eldar didn't settle every world in the galaxy. It's also likely (but not made explicit) that the Eldar did not station forces in every corner of the galaxy. But it's extremely clear the Eldar Empire extended beyond the core worlds.
I get the distinct impression bharing that you don't actually know what a crone world is, nor what makes an exodite world and exodite world and lastly what a maiden world is, can you explain exactly what these are for me please.
Crone world: Eldar world overcome by Chaos
Exodite world: World settled by Exodites
Maiden world: World prepared for, or ready for, Eldar expansion (but not currently inhabited)
Unless they changed the meanings. But "Crone World" isn't just any Eldar world - it must be overcome by Chaos.
Crone world: eldar world from the old empire overcome by chaos, we know this from the previous failed example of a crone world outside the eye, it was a maiden world overcome by chaos, but still a maiden world.
Exodite worlds: world's where eldar left the old empire and settled outside of the empire, if the empire was galaxy wide these world's would be found outside the milky way, they are not.
Maiden world: artificially created world's likely created through terraforming, seeded to home the fleeing eldar in the future, possibly all "sentient" as they appear to have souls of a sort (deamon world).
There are plenty of eldar world's over run by chaos that are not crone world's, that seems to reserved to any world within the eye/old empire, so in order to assume that eldar world's outside the old empire can be found, we need some examples of that, as far as I'm aware there are none in the entire setting outside the eye.
Crone world: eldar world from the old empire overcome by chaos, we know this from the previous failed example of a crone world outside the eye, it was a maiden world overcome by chaos, but still a maiden world.
My explanation was a little simplistic. 'Crone World' typically refers to an Eldar Empire world overcome by Chaos. There isn't much debate about whether or not other Chaos-overcome worlds are also considered "Crone Worlds". The argument presented is that all Eldar Empire worlds are Crone Worlds. For which there's been no support from the lore.
Exodite worlds: world's where eldar left the old empire and settled outside of the empire, if the empire was galaxy wide these world's would be found outside the milky way, they are not.
I think we're talking past eachother. I'm not claiming the Eldar Empire settled the entire galaxy. I'm saying they were uparallelled *masters* of the Galaxy. I'm refuting the argument that the entirety of the Empire was within the Eye. The concept that Exodite worlds are found "on the fringes" of the Empire, yet are found all across the galaxy, strongly reject the idea that the Eldar Empire was limited to the eye.
There's also the implication that the Eldar did not project beyond their settled worlds. There's no evidence in support of this, and a crapton of evidence agains this thought.
Maiden world: artificially created world's likely created through terraforming, seeded to home the fleeing eldar in the future, possibly all "sentient" as they appear to have souls of a sort (deamon world).
Aren't most Maiden Worlds incredibly inviting to the Imperium? The remaining Eldar often clash with the Imperium over them. Exodites, when they inhabit them, can rile them up against enemies - but I haven't read anything about uninhabited ones "fighting off" mankind.
There are plenty of eldar world's over run by chaos that are not crone world's, that seems to reserved to any world within the eye/old empire, so in order to assume that eldar world's outside the old empire can be found, we need some examples of that, as far as I'm aware there are none in the entire setting outside the eye.
What would you find? The Eldar that lived there were killed by Slanesh. And the closer to the Eye, the faster. Only those who found an escape (Soulstones, World Spirits, Cegorath, or torture) survived. You'd find xenos ruins - which you find basically everywhere in the galaxy.
Insectum7 wrote: Examples aren't required, just language suggesting that they existed, which we have.
No we dont, we need examples exactly because we dont have language telling us we have.
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My explanation was a little simplistic. 'Crone World' typically refers to an Eldar Empire world overcome by Chaos. There isn't much debate about whether or not other Chaos-overcome worlds are also considered "Crone Worlds". The argument presented is that all Eldar Empire worlds are Crone Worlds. For which there's been no support from the lore.
Well as far as I have found ALL Eldar empire worlds are crone worlds, I am yet to find a reference to a crone world outside the Eye, if we can find one, we can make a fair guess, and it would only be a guess, that there are more.
I think we're talking past eachother. I'm not claiming the Eldar Empire settled the entire galaxy. I'm saying they were uparallelled *masters* of the Galaxy. I'm refuting the argument that the entirety of the Empire was within the Eye. The concept that Exodite worlds are found "on the fringes" of the Empire, yet are found all across the galaxy, strongly reject the idea that the Eldar Empire was limited to the eye.
Yeah thats fair dude, we may be talking past each other, thats why i am asking for clarification and you are giving it, I however disagree, as stated time and time again, Eldar only considered themselves undisputed masters, they are eldar, arrogance and pride are their thing, as are lies and deceit, Eldar were not undisputed masters of the galaxy, they were likely unchallenged masters of their realms but considered themselves masters, if they honestly believed that Orks were not a challenge, they are just lying to themselves, the beast series shows what the Krork were likely like and they are on par with the old Eldar empire quite likely by design, lets not forget both these races were made to fight the necrons, who are the leaps and bounds more powerful than the eldar but weakened by the war in heaven and rebellion against the C'tan.
As for the eldar empire being limited to the eye, if it were not we would not find masses of human worlds all over the galaxy totally surrounding the old empire on all side (galactically speaking), if the Eldar were all over the galaxy then they would have come into conflict with DAOT humans and the human colonies would not be everywhere, Eldar ones would be.
There's also the implication that the Eldar did not project beyond their settled worlds. There's no evidence in support of this, and a crapton of evidence agains this thought.
Ok, I give Delvarus crap for the same thing I am about to give you crap for, stop stating conjecture as fact, there is not a crap ton of evidence, there is almost nothing on pre fall eldar at all let alone what you claim as "a crapton", almost everything we are discussing is based on very little information and thought experiments are fun as long as we dont try to claim something is absolute when by design it is not.
Aren't most Maiden Worlds incredibly inviting to the Imperium? The remaining Eldar often clash with the Imperium over them. Exodites, when they inhabit them, can rile them up against enemies - but I haven't read anything about uninhabited ones "fighting off" mankind.
Yes, they are, they are created pre fall for future eldar to settle and by design paradises, as for fighting off humanity, no I have never come across that either, possibly being sentient or possibly having a soul of some kind does not mean it has the ability to literally fight, it may just be the one maiden world that had this in all fairness, but we know one did so it is possible others did too, we just dont know.
What would you find? The Eldar that lived there were killed by Slanesh. And the closer to the Eye, the faster. Only those who found an escape (Soulstones, World Spirits, Cegorath, or torture) survived. You'd find xenos ruins - which you find basically everywhere in the galaxy.
we would find eldar colonies that are not exodites in the exact same manner we find human colonies, the craftworlds survived by being far enough away from the epicentre of slaaneshes birth, so if there were colonies and pocket empires outside what is now the eye, we would have seen them in the heresy, unless we are now considering that the larger the population the larger impact slaanesh had, so any pocket empires that had large populations all suffered the same fate as the core worlds, all conjecture of course.
Anyway, the great crusade sets off the same time as the old eldar empire falls, we encounter NO eldar worlds outside the eye that we are told about, lots and lots of other races, personally I find the total absence of eldar worlds being mentioned at all in any heresy book very strange, I honestly would expect a few old empire colonies to have survived and have been encountered by the legions, nope, nada, very odd.
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Insectum7 wrote: Examples aren't required, just language suggesting that they existed, which we have.
No we dont, we need examples exactly because we dont have language telling us we have.
I mean, you're incorrect in that reasoning, but we don't even need worlds to have existed outside the Eye, as an "Empire" can basically span as far as it's population can travel uncontested. If that doesn't work for you, define for me what makes the extent of an "empire". Any world reachable by webway may have been the Eldar definition, and that would have been to the far flung corners of the galaxy. It could also be said that their empire included all the space in the webway that the Dark Eldar currently travel/inhabit.
What is even being argued here? If the claim is that the "Eldar Empire" extended only to within the area within the realm encompassed by the Eye of Terror, multiple quotes about being "masters of the galaxy etc." appear to be directly at odds with that.
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Formosa wrote: I however disagree, as stated time and time again, Eldar only considered themselves undisputed masters, they are eldar, arrogance and pride are their thing, as are lies and deceit, Eldar were not undisputed masters of the galaxy. . .
again, pg 26 of the 8th edition Craftworld codex ". . .Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. Those lesser races that dare oppose them represent little challenge . . . the supremacy of their great empire is beyond dispute."
"The shining constellations of the Eldar Empire spanned the galaxy" BRB 6th edition, pg. 205
"when Mankinds ancestors had just crawled from the sea, their empire spanned the galaxy"BRB 4th edition, pg. 141
If you got something else, post it.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 20:42:08
I mean, you're incorrect in that reasoning, but we don't even need worlds to have existed outside the Eye, as an "Empire" can basically span as far as it's population can travel uncontested. If that doesn't work for you, define for me what makes the extent of an "empire". Any world reachable by webway may have been the Eldar definition, and that would have been to the far flung corners of the galaxy. It could also be said that their empire included all the space in the webway that the Dark Eldar currently travel/inhabit.
What is even being argued here? If the claim is that the "Eldar Empire" extended only to within the area within the realm encompassed by the Eye of Terror, multiple quotes about being "masters of the galaxy etc." appear to be directly at odds with that.
Essentially yes, the old eldar empire was confined to the area around the eye, any other worlds they had were either maiden worlds, IE not part of the empire or exodite worlds, IE not part of the empire, and again, they are self professed masters of the galaxy, a typical eldar statement.
again, pg 26 of the 8th edition Craftworld codex ". . .Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. Those lesser races that dare oppose them represent little challenge . . . the supremacy of their great empire is beyond dispute."
"The shining constellations of the Eldar Empire spanned the galaxy" BRB 6th edition, pg. 205
"when Mankinds ancestors had just crawled from the sea, their empire spanned the galaxy"BRB 4th edition, pg. 141
If you got something else, post it.
I already have miltiple times, Eldar, undisputed masters, DAOT, undisputed masters, we know from the heresy series, novels and black books that DAOT humans had tech comparable to Eldar empire tech, we know from main rulebooks that human were "undisputed masters" and won "alien wars" with ease, but you and others choose to ignore the same sources that state humans were top of the head for the same vague sources that state the eldar were, I have been trying to use conjecture to marry the two together, some of you are using heavy bias in favour of eldar to say they are top of the heap, both empires had tech and weapons that were miracle tech tier, we are talking creating stars, ending them, temporal manipulation, space time weapons, black hole cannons etc. etc.
So given all the very little information I state again my conjecture is this, Eldar were allies with DAOT humans for trade and peaceful co-existence because both empires knew that any war would likely end in both sides being utterly ravaged, trade and diplomacy easily explains why a webway on the moon was allowed and also explains why the Eldar allowed themselves to be surrounded on all sides by DOAT humanity on a galactic scale, they were happy in their empires borders and wanted for nothing, this has just as much evidence supporting it as your "eldar are No1 wooooooooooo!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 21:01:24
Where does it says that humans ever had tech just as good as that of the ancient Eldar Empire? The best tech of the Imperium doesn't match the tech of the Eldars who have but a shred of the tools and tech they used to have. The Fall completely destroyed the basis of their tech as shown in the First Heretic novel. The quote about Eldar Empire tech says that it dwarfed the achievement of all other races, that they discovered secrets about hte univers that are now completely lost to time. There is a reason the most prize place of knowledge in the galaxy is the Black Library. It might be the last archive of science, art and philosophy that survived the Fall.
It's also possible that due to minute changes and expention of the timeline that the Eldar Empire decadence started while humanity started its expention. If I'm not mistaken, the creation of the first human Warp drive happens in the same period then the emergence of the pleasure cults within the Eldar Empire and more specifically within Commoragh.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 21:13:29
Insectum7 wrote: I see no quotes Formosa. You've said DAoT are "undisputed masters", but not actually backed that up with any quotation.
Thats because I am being very lazy and cant be bothered to grab the rulebook and find the exact page, but its in the 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th main rulebooks IIRC, not sure its in the 7th one, will have to check.
Anywho, here are some quotes none the less.
"Perfection of the Standard Template Construct (STC) system permitted an explosion of colonisation that reached the furthest limits of the galaxy. This was the zenith of technological development and knowledge-sharing, for even the most far-flung colony had access to the entire inventory of human invention.
Humanity encountered several intelligent alien races during their expansion out into the galaxy, such as the Eldar and the warlike Orks. With these discoveries began, in time, the first human-xenos wars. With Mankind at the height of its power, the threat of aliens was viewed as trivial and eventually non-aggression pacts were signed between Terra, its colonies and many of the alien races.
For the rest of the age, Mankind spread across the stars, becoming widely dispersed and divergent. Evidence exists of many wars, but none that threatened the stability of human space. Amongst the surviving records are lists of xenos enemies that have long since gone extinct, along with more familiar names such as Aeldari and Orks."
"But even that wasn’t fast enough to catch a ship as nimble as one built by the bonesingers of Biel-Tan and guided by the prescient sight of a farseer. The pulse of dark energy coalesced a hundred kilometres off the vessel’s stern and a miniature black hole exploded into life, dragging in everything within its reach with howling force. Stellar matter, light and gravity were crushed as they were drawn in and destroyed, and even the Starblade’s speed and manoeuvrability weren’t enough to save it completely as the secondary effect of the weapon’s deadly energies brushed over its solar sail. Chrono-weaponry shifted its target a nanosecond into the past, by which time the subatomic reactions within every molecule had shifted microscopically and forced identical neutrons into the same quantum space."
So given that Eldar still use the exact same ships, weapons and tech in the heresy mere decades after the fall (Ref: fulgrim) your all gonna be hard pressed to convince me that Eldar out teched DAOT humans by such a large scale that war would be totally one sided, especially considering the above quote having a 40k Ark mechanicus vessel using DAOT weapons to easily smash eldar ships, now if we are gonna talk about possible Eldar weapons surpassing what we have seen them use, well then we are again moving into conjecture territory.
Insectum7 wrote: I see no quotes Formosa. You've said DAoT are "undisputed masters", but not actually backed that up with any quotation.
Thats because I am being very lazy and cant be bothered to grab the rulebook and find the exact page, but its in the 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th main rulebooks IIRC, not sure its in the 7th one, will have to check.
Anywho, here are some quotes none the less.
"Perfection of the Standard Template Construct (STC) system permitted an explosion of colonisation that reached the furthest limits of the galaxy. This was the zenith of technological development and knowledge-sharing, for even the most far-flung colony had access to the entire inventory of human invention.
Humanity encountered several intelligent alien races during their expansion out into the galaxy, such as the Eldar and the warlike Orks. With these discoveries began, in time, the first human-xenos wars. With Mankind at the height of its power, the threat of aliens was viewed as trivial and eventually non-aggression pacts were signed between Terra, its colonies and many of the alien races.
For the rest of the age, Mankind spread across the stars, becoming widely dispersed and divergent. Evidence exists of many wars, but none that threatened the stability of human space. Amongst the surviving records are lists of xenos enemies that have long since gone extinct, along with more familiar names such as Aeldari and Orks."
"But even that wasn’t fast enough to catch a ship as nimble as one built by the bonesingers of Biel-Tan and guided by the prescient sight of a farseer. The pulse of dark energy coalesced a hundred kilometres off the vessel’s stern and a miniature black hole exploded into life, dragging in everything within its reach with howling force. Stellar matter, light and gravity were crushed as they were drawn in and destroyed, and even the Starblade’s speed and manoeuvrability weren’t enough to save it completely as the secondary effect of the weapon’s deadly energies brushed over its solar sail. Chrono-weaponry shifted its target a nanosecond into the past, by which time the subatomic reactions within every molecule had shifted microscopically and forced identical neutrons into the same quantum space."
So given that Eldar still use the exact same ships, weapons and tech in the heresy mere decades after the fall (Ref: fulgrim) your all gonna be hard pressed to convince me that Eldar out teched DAOT humans by such a large scale that war would be totally one sided, especially considering the above quote having a 40k Ark mechanicus vessel using DAOT weapons to easily smash eldar ships, now if we are gonna talk about possible Eldar weapons surpassing what we have seen them use, well then we are again moving into conjecture territory.
That's easy, I could just say the Eldar didn't care about the human expansion (thus no war), and that the Mechanicus ship got lucky in destroying the Eldar vessel. A destroyed ship doesn't mean that the technologies involved were on par. Those quotes don't really grant you much, to be honest.
