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bananathug wrote:
What's the change on the vexator mask? Does it apply to things like the armor of russ or the DA characters fight last items as well?

The Vexator's Mask can be interrupted with the stratagem now, which is idiotic because in the same FAQ they've said you can't do that to the Tyranids equivelant.

However, I don't think it's as big a deal as some people are making out. Mostly it's used to make sure Talos or Grotesques get to hit first before anything else, on the charge you're doing that anyway and more often than not it's them doing the charging as there's not much that wants to be in combat with Talos or Grotesques.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

psipso wrote:
GK without doubt. IK and Ynari still have plenity of viable units to play with it. GK they only got one single unit in the whole codex that was decent. This unit got nerfed to ashes after the faq.

A 2++ like that should never have been in the game to start with so it was barely a nerf.

Seconded.

Instead, one can boost the inv. save of two GMNKs to 3++ by using sanctuary and the strategem.

It was a big Nerf because it was in the game and then taken out, and it was our most competitive option, and a lot of our tactics hinged on that for surviving to take down big stuff. Or to act as a distraction while the rest of the army moved into place.

And we could boost 2 gmndk before to a 3++ and a 4++ with +1 to roll (effectively a 3++). That is nothing new.

Problem is? 2+3++ t6 is easy to kill for many armies.. mass ap-1 shooting/attacks will rip these guys down. Unless you have drones to take your wound for you.

Im mostly playing Orks and Nids of late.
Apart from Mob up are they relatively unaffected by this FAQ?

 G00fySmiley wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
orks lost loota star which someplayers seem to think is the end of the world but given how meh the extra shots usually were I am not too concerned personally. (this is to the mod bup part)

They lost 42% of their firepower before factoring in ddd.

40% (10/25 assuming you are adding in 10 lootas into a 15 man) and not ei said not concerned personally. in practice I (again in games i have run them and mobbed up) often were either overkilling something, or the thin i was shooting them at would have been better taken out by something stronger than lootas that i was not taking in order to spend the points on 25 lootas.. at this point even pre nerf I run 3 units of lootas with 5 per unit. they go work, plink of funits and are not one big command point sink. they are even fairly low priority to other things on the board like blastajets, boys mobs, and mek guns. i find 5 man units (againpersonal experience ymmv) to take their points equivilant off the board and then some most of the time.

You forget that you can't reroll both d3 for shots. That adds difference. Before 15 lootas averaged 70 shots or so, now 68. Each loota shoots more than 2 in average due to reroll(you don't stay with 1 and fire twice. You reroll that 1. so before it averaged 2.33 shots per loota fired twice so 4.66. Now it's 4.53 per loota assuming you reroll 1's and fire twice).

And overkill only happens if you roll way better than average. You do know you don't have to shoot same target right? I have done big damage to 6 units in a turn with 15 lootas(not kill but I wasn't even trying to kill them all. I WANTED survivors).

Units of 5 are just waste.

Renegades and Heretics: mostly due to the nerf of AM valkyrie which was needed for ogryn berzerkers.

Thousand Sons: The small change of allowing rubric units to tank perils hits on the rubrics rather than the sorc is quite nice. We've already seen some rubrics showing in tournament lists, and I think we may see some more now that you can only have 3 daemon princes so they might as well be the superior Tsons brand.

tneva82 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
orks lost loota star which someplayers seem to think is the end of the world but given how meh the extra shots usually were I am not too concerned personally. (this is to the mod bup part)

They lost 42% of their firepower before factoring in ddd.

40% (10/25 assuming you are adding in 10 lootas into a 15 man) and not ei said not concerned personally. in practice I (again in games i have run them and mobbed up) often were either overkilling something, or the thin i was shooting them at would have been better taken out by something stronger than lootas that i was not taking in order to spend the points on 25 lootas.. at this point even pre nerf I run 3 units of lootas with 5 per unit. they go work, plink of funits and are not one big command point sink. they are even fairly low priority to other things on the board like blastajets, boys mobs, and mek guns. i find 5 man units (againpersonal experience ymmv) to take their points equivilant off the board and then some most of the time.

You forget that you can't reroll both d3 for shots. That adds difference. Before 15 lootas averaged 70 shots or so, now 68. Each loota shoots more than 2 in average due to reroll(you don't stay with 1 and fire twice. You reroll that 1. so before it averaged 2.33 shots per loota fired twice so 4.66. Now it's 4.53 per loota assuming you reroll 1's and fire twice).

And overkill only happens if you roll way better than average. You do know you don't have to shoot same target right? I have done big damage to 6 units in a turn with 15 lootas(not kill but I wasn't even trying to kill them all. I WANTED survivors).

Units of 5 are just waste.

looking at the most recent tournament wins small loota squads seem to be present while loota bomb is not doing as hot. I find them to be quite effective. have you actually tried them?

What benefit do they have? More vulnerable, shoot less efficiently. Worry of overkill is sign of being lousy player since you don't have to shoot vs same target anyway.

You die faster, shoot less, eat same amount of cp. What is the benefit?

tneva82 wrote:
What benefit do they have? More vulnerable, shoot less efficiently. Worry of overkill is sign of being lousy player since you don't have to shoot vs same target anyway.

You die faster, shoot less, eat same amount of cp. What is the benefit?

loota bomb is a all your eggs in one basket scenario its a giant red target.

meanwhile 5 lootas is a low priority target. mix in mek guns and the question is what are they going to shoot at. 5 lootas is 10 shots on average, run em as defskulls for the 6++ and one reroll to hit and 1 to wound, you average 3.6 hits with ~2 dakka dakka so `4.2 hits, then rerolling 1 wound depending on target. Put em in cover for the 5+ armor and by a mek gun so if it dies you can loot it for a 4+ save in cover (usually mek guns get prioritized before 5 lootas) for 85 points, 4.2 str 7 ap-1 D2 is not bad and you don't need to feed it CP.

honestly i have found when the opponent does decide to shoot my lootas its with anti elite/tank stuff so I am kind of glad they are shooting that plasma cannon at my lootas instead of my bonebreaker wagons with nobz or my shokkjump/, kbb, or scrapjet. or worse my blastajet

 G00fySmiley wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
What benefit do they have? More vulnerable, shoot less efficiently. Worry of overkill is sign of being lousy player since you don't have to shoot vs same target anyway.

You die faster, shoot less, eat same amount of cp. What is the benefit?

loota bomb is a all your eggs in one basket scenario its a giant red target.

meanwhile 5 lootas is a low priority target. mix in mek guns and the question is what are they going to shoot at. 5 lootas is 10 shots on average, run em as defskulls for the 6++ and one reroll to hit and 1 to wound, you average 3.6 hits with ~2 dakka dakka so `4.2 hits, then rerolling 1 wound depending on target. Put em in cover for the 5+ armor and by a mek gun so if it dies you can loot it for a 4+ save in cover (usually mek guns get prioritized before 5 lootas) for 85 points, 4.2 str 7 ap-1 D2 is not bad and you don't need to feed it CP.

honestly i have found when the opponent does decide to shoot my lootas its with anti elite/tank stuff so I am kind of glad they are shooting that plasma cannon at my lootas instead of my bonebreaker wagons with nobz or my shokkjump/, kbb, or scrapjet. or worse my blastajet

I agree completely. Oversaturation of potential targets is a pretty good strategy on its own! Making your opponent second guess their shots and even being unsure of your strategy is an excellent place to start. Overkill on a redundant squad is even better, since they could have shot something actually important.

As a guard player I find that taking a ton of really generic units makes my opponent have to react more to where Im going then just simple "shoot the big one!" tactics. Never rely on a single unit to do something specific, always have 3 that can at least do it if maybe not do it well. Ive lost out too much when I took only one Wyvern for anti infantry or why the venerable Knight Commander Pask is always getting killed off first turn. Thats also why as much as I love the unit its hard for me to include a Shadowsword/Baneblade when I play. This idea is also why I rarely took the Castellan in my all knights lists because she was a HUGE target that ate shots and CP. Instead I have a list with 3 Gallants, a Valiant, and 2 Helverins. Opponents have to really worry about whether that Valliant or the 3 gallants are something to be more afraid of and the other one WILL kill what its headed toward.