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2019/05/02 12:57:24
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
I had a game recently where i used the stratagem to get another turn with reign of confusion active.
My callidus died mid-battle round and i kept taxing the CP cost of my opponent's stratagems.
An onlooker told me that if the callidus dies, the tax doesnt apply anymore.
Is a unit not considered "in your army" if it has died? From my understanding , "in your army" simply meant that it was in your list.
2019/05/02 13:01:46
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
VladimirHerzog wrote: I had a game recently where i used the stratagem to get another turn with reign of confusion active.
My callidus died mid-battle round and i kept taxing the CP cost of my opponent's stratagems.
An onlooker told me that if the callidus dies, the tax doesnt apply anymore.
Is a unit not considered "in your army" if it has died? From my understanding , "in your army" simply meant that it was in your list.
She is still in your army, even if she died.
2019/05/02 14:03:11
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
As a note. It helps everyone in this dakka community when you post the rule in quotations. BCB knows almost every army's rules. Others may not. I for instance know my own and the few I've gotten to play against.
Can you post it for us?
2019/05/02 14:15:08
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
mhalko1 wrote: As a note. It helps everyone in this dakka community when you post the rule in quotations. BCB knows almost every army's rules. Others may not. I for instance know my own and the few I've gotten to play against.
Can you post it for us?
Here they are :
Reign of confusion: If you have any models with this ability in your army, then during the first battle round, roll one D6 each time your opponent spends Command Points to use a stratagem. On a 4+, your opponent must spend one extra Cp to use that Stratagem, or else it has no effect. This ability cannot affect Stratagems used 'before the battle begins'.
Supreme Deception : Use this stratagem at the start of any battle round after the first. Choose one Callidus Assassin from your army. That model's Reign of Confusion ability is considered to be in effect until the end of that battle round. You can only use this stratagem once per battle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 14:15:19
2019/05/02 14:17:47
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
mhalko1 wrote: As a note. It helps everyone in this dakka community when you post the rule in quotations. BCB knows almost every army's rules. Others may not. I for instance know my own and the few I've gotten to play against.
Can you post it for us?
Reign of Confusion: If you have any models with this ability in your army, then during the first battle round, roll one D6 each time your opponent spends Command Points (CPs) to use a Stratagem. On a 4+, your opponent must spend one extra CP to use that Stratagem, or else it has no effect (the CPs spent so far are lost). This ability cannot affect Stratagems used ‘before the battle begins’.
The rule works "If you have any models with this ability in your army". This means it doesn't matter if the Callidus is off the battlefield, dead, embarked somewhere or any other scenario, if they are in your army, after the battle begins Reign of Confusion applies.
2019/05/02 14:19:17
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
VladimirHerzog wrote: I had a game recently where i used the stratagem to get another turn with reign of confusion active.
My callidus died mid-battle round and i kept taxing the CP cost of my opponent's stratagems.
An onlooker told me that if the callidus dies, the tax doesnt apply anymore.
Is a unit not considered "in your army" if it has died? From my understanding , "in your army" simply meant that it was in your list.
She is still in your army, even if she died.
Any source for that statement? I'd like to prove it to the guy with more than just "someone said so in a forum". To me it seems obvious.
2019/05/02 14:20:41
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
VladimirHerzog wrote: I had a game recently where i used the stratagem to get another turn with reign of confusion active. My callidus died mid-battle round and i kept taxing the CP cost of my opponent's stratagems. An onlooker told me that if the callidus dies, the tax doesnt apply anymore. Is a unit not considered "in your army" if it has died? From my understanding , "in your army" simply meant that it was in your list.
She is still in your army, even if she died.
Any source for that statement? I'd like to prove it to the guy with more than just "someone said so in a forum". To me it seems obvious.
The same reasoning that dice are numbered 1 through 6, or that a "roll" means to "randomly determine a value by the physical motion of a dice", the English Language. There is a minimum level of English Language parsing that needs to be done for the game to function as it is not written in Lojban.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 14:21:07
2019/05/02 14:44:34
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
VladimirHerzog wrote: I had a game recently where i used the stratagem to get another turn with reign of confusion active.
My callidus died mid-battle round and i kept taxing the CP cost of my opponent's stratagems.
An onlooker told me that if the callidus dies, the tax doesnt apply anymore.
Is a unit not considered "in your army" if it has died? From my understanding , "in your army" simply meant that it was in your list.
She is still in your army, even if she died.
Any source for that statement? I'd like to prove it to the guy with more than just "someone said so in a forum". To me it seems obvious.
Is she on your army list? If so, she's in your army. This isn't a trick question.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Is she on your army list? If so, she's in your army. This isn't a trick question.
Alright, i'll just tell him to stop arguing then. I dont have to be convinced that this is how the rule work , he does, ill just try to avoid games with him (he starts these kind of arguments quite often)
2019/05/02 14:55:03
Subject: Re:Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
The reign of confusion works because the stratagem says its active until the end of the battle round. It doesnt matter if the callidus is still alive, or not.
2019/05/02 15:21:27
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
mhalko1 wrote: As a note. It helps everyone in this dakka community when you post the rule in quotations. BCB knows almost every army's rules. Others may not. I for instance know my own and the few I've gotten to play against.
Can you post it for us?
Reign of Confusion: If you have any models with this ability in your army, then during the first battle round, roll one D6 each time your opponent spends Command Points (CPs) to use a Stratagem. On a 4+, your opponent must spend one extra CP to use that Stratagem, or else it has no effect (the CPs spent so far are lost). This ability cannot affect Stratagems used ‘before the battle begins’.
The rule works "If you have any models with this ability in your army". This means it doesn't matter if the Callidus is off the battlefield, dead, embarked somewhere or any other scenario, if they are in your army, after the battle begins Reign of Confusion applies.
The rule works for the first battle round. After that, you have to be able to cast Reign of Confusion on a model. If all the appropriate models in your army are dead then there isn't a valid target to choose to apply the stratagem to. If you can cast the stratagem though, it would apply for extending the effect through that battle round even if the Callidus dies during the battle round sometime.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 15:23:44
2019/05/02 19:45:54
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
VladimirHerzog wrote: I had a game recently where i used the stratagem to get another turn with reign of confusion active.
My callidus died mid-battle round and i kept taxing the CP cost of my opponent's stratagems.
An onlooker told me that if the callidus dies, the tax doesnt apply anymore.
Is a unit not considered "in your army" if it has died? From my understanding , "in your army" simply meant that it was in your list.
She is still in your army, even if she died.
Any source for that statement? I'd like to prove it to the guy with more than just "someone said so in a forum". To me it seems obvious.
The same reasoning that dice are numbered 1 through 6, or that a "roll" means to "randomly determine a value by the physical motion of a dice", the English Language. There is a minimum level of English Language parsing that needs to be done for the game to function as it is not written in Lojban.
I don't think you can appeal to English on this one.
If I'm in an army and then die am I still in the army?
Logically, absolutely not. So the same applies to the game, if you can't find a rules source to the contrary.
2019/05/02 20:30:22
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
If the model is dead it’s not in your army anymore. Seems self-evident.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2019/05/02 20:34:18
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
VladimirHerzog wrote: I had a game recently where i used the stratagem to get another turn with reign of confusion active.
My callidus died mid-battle round and i kept taxing the CP cost of my opponent's stratagems.
An onlooker told me that if the callidus dies, the tax doesnt apply anymore.
Is a unit not considered "in your army" if it has died? From my understanding , "in your army" simply meant that it was in your list.
She is still in your army, even if she died.
Any source for that statement? I'd like to prove it to the guy with more than just "someone said so in a forum". To me it seems obvious.
The same reasoning that dice are numbered 1 through 6, or that a "roll" means to "randomly determine a value by the physical motion of a dice", the English Language. There is a minimum level of English Language parsing that needs to be done for the game to function as it is not written in Lojban.
I don't think you can appeal to English on this one.
If I'm in an army and then die am I still in the army?
Logically, absolutely not. So the same applies to the game, if you can't find a rules source to the contrary.
"In your army" is synonymous with "on your army list". Being removed from the battlefield doesn't remove the unit from the army. If it did you'd never get victory points for slaying anything.
2019/05/02 20:58:58
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
I am not arguing one way or the other. BUT if you needed a situational explanation for this. The Callidus infiltrates armies and causes chaos. IF she died on the outskirts but only a handful of people saw her there could still be chaos in the ranks as they accuse and distrust one another not knowing she was killed.
2019/05/02 21:13:45
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
JohnnyHell wrote: If the model is dead it’s not in your army anymore. Seems self-evident.
That is a bit difficult depending on the "status" of the model at any given point.
A model may be considered "in" a vehicle but in game terms it is NOT on the table but they typically have the rule of "treat as on the table" for a specific rule that applies to the model.
A model about to deep-strike in, is effectively not "in" your army by the same "self-evident" observation: they are in air-drop or moving into position purgatory until they "appear".
OK, looked at the big freaking "April Update" after reading all the stuff about when models are "removed" mainly for some teleport/vehicle/deep-strike or wounds lost, best I can tell you can use the stratagem up to "the end of that turn".
See big freaking blurb from them here:
Spoiler:
(RE)SETTING UP MODELS
There are several abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers that let players remove a unit from the battlefield and then
set it back up in a different location, but these rules are causing some confusion. The confusion is partly because it is
not clear whether or not any effects that applied to the unit before it is removed from the battlefield continue to apply
when it is set back up, and also because the wording of this rule is sometimes written as these units being set up ‘as if
they were reinforcements’, even though they are technically on the battlefield already.
The intent of the ‘as if they were reinforcements’ wording was to try and make it clear that the units had counted as
moving for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons, and that they can’t move further again this turn (other
than to charge, pile in or consolidate) – after all, these units have potentially been displaced across the entire length of
the battlefield already. This wording was also used to try and make it clear that such units would trigger other abilities
or Stratagems, such as Auspex Scans and Early Warning Overrides, that are used when a unit is set up on the battlefield
as reinforcements – our feeling was that it shouldn’t make a difference as to the whether a unit teleported onto the
battlefield from an orbiting spacecraft or from over the next hill.
To clarify how these abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers work, we are adding the following FAQ to the Warhammer
40,000 rulebook, which is preprinted here for convenience:
WARHAMMER 40,000 UPDATE – APRIL 2019 4
Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic
powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?
A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the
following rules apply to that unit:
1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also
triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield.
2. Models in that unit count as having moved a distance equal to their Move characteristic that turn (and so
suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons). If the unit has a minimum Move
characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum Move characteristic.
3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn for any reason, other than to make a charge move,
to pile in, or to consolidate.
4. If that unit was within 1" of an enemy unit when it was removed, it does not count as having Fallen Back
when it is set back up on the battlefield.
5. If that unit has Advanced during this turn, it still counts as having Advanced after it has been set back up on
the battlefield.
6. Any destroyed models in that unit when it is removed are still destroyed when their unit is set back up on the
battlefield. If they were destroyed during this turn, they still count towards any Morale tests taken for that
unit this turn.
7. Any models in that unit that have lost any wounds do not regain those wounds when they are removed, and
will still have lost them when their unit is set back up on the battlefield.
8. Any rules that unit was being affected by when it was removed, and which would continue to affect it for a
specific duration (from abilities, Stratagems, psychic powers, etc.), continue to affect that unit until such a
point as they would normally have no longer applied. For example, a unit that was within range of an aura
ability when it was removed would no longer be affected by that ability if it was set up outside of that aura’s
range, whereas a unit that was being affected by a psychic power that lasted until the end of that turn would
still be affected by it until the end of that turn.
Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the Sustained Assault rule, any unit that has been
added to your army during the battle and has been set up (such as those added via the Daemonic Ritual
ability), or units set up via any of the following Stratagems: Fresh Converts (see Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus),
Tide of Traitors (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines), Unstoppable Green Tide (see Codex: Orks), More Where They
Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), Send in the Next Wave (Codex: Astra Militarum), and Endless
Swarm (Codex: Tyranids). These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units
being repositioned on the battlefield.
Not as definitive as I would like but my best area to point to.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2019/05/02 21:43:53
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
BaconCatBug wrote: "In your army" is synonymous with "on your army list". Being removed from the battlefield doesn't remove the unit from the army. If it did you'd never get victory points for slaying anything.
They may be synonymous at the start of the game, but as you take casualties they don't mean the same thing. Just because you might have a Chaos Lord on your list, if he's a casualty during the game then he's an ex-Chaos Lord, he pushing up the daisies and has gone to meet his maker. He's not in your army any more because he's a casualty.
2019/05/02 22:03:14
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
VladimirHerzog wrote: I had a game recently where i used the stratagem to get another turn with reign of confusion active.
My callidus died mid-battle round and i kept taxing the CP cost of my opponent's stratagems.
An onlooker told me that if the callidus dies, the tax doesnt apply anymore.
Is a unit not considered "in your army" if it has died? From my understanding , "in your army" simply meant that it was in your list.
She is still in your army, even if she died.
Any source for that statement? I'd like to prove it to the guy with more than just "someone said so in a forum". To me it seems obvious.
The same reasoning that dice are numbered 1 through 6, or that a "roll" means to "randomly determine a value by the physical motion of a dice", the English Language. There is a minimum level of English Language parsing that needs to be done for the game to function as it is not written in Lojban.
I don't think you can appeal to English on this one.
If I'm in an army and then die am I still in the army?
Logically, absolutely not. So the same applies to the game, if you can't find a rules source to the contrary.
"In your army" is synonymous with "on your army list". Being removed from the battlefield doesn't remove the unit from the army. If it did you'd never get victory points for slaying anything.
Rules citation for declaring them ‘synonymous’, please...
BaconCatBug wrote: "In your army" is synonymous with "on your army list". Being removed from the battlefield doesn't remove the unit from the army. If it did you'd never get victory points for slaying anything.
They may be synonymous at the start of the game, but as you take casualties they don't mean the same thing. Just because you might have a Chaos Lord on your list, if he's a casualty during the game then he's an ex-Chaos Lord, he pushing up the daisies and has gone to meet his maker. He's not in your army any more because he's a casualty.
Absolutely agree.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 22:03:30
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2019/05/02 23:21:55
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
BaconCatBug wrote: "In your army" is synonymous with "on your army list". Being removed from the battlefield doesn't remove the unit from the army. If it did you'd never get victory points for slaying anything.
They may be synonymous at the start of the game, but as you take casualties they don't mean the same thing. Just because you might have a Chaos Lord on your list, if he's a casualty during the game then he's an ex-Chaos Lord, he pushing up the daisies and has gone to meet his maker. He's not in your army any more because he's a casualty.
You take a squad of daemons, you have a Chaos Icon. You revive D6 slain models. If the slain models are not in your army, how can you revive them?
2019/05/03 12:11:57
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
BaconCatBug wrote: "In your army" is synonymous with "on your army list". Being removed from the battlefield doesn't remove the unit from the army. If it did you'd never get victory points for slaying anything.
They may be synonymous at the start of the game, but as you take casualties they don't mean the same thing. Just because you might have a Chaos Lord on your list, if he's a casualty during the game then he's an ex-Chaos Lord, he pushing up the daisies and has gone to meet his maker. He's not in your army any more because he's a casualty.
You take a squad of daemons, you have a Chaos Icon. You revive D6 slain models. If the slain models are not in your army, how can you revive them?
Because they were in your Army. Note the past tense.
2019/05/03 12:33:02
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
I'm leaning towards saying they have to be alive for the Reign of Confusion ability to work but not for Supreme Deception (though they have to be alive at the time you use the Supreme Deception stratagem). We don't have a proper rules definition for what "in your army" means but the use of the present tense in the phrase suggests quite strongly to me it's talking about whether a unit/model is currently in your army.
It's not the best-worded rule, for sure, and some clarification would be welcome, so if you're concerned about this it's probably best to speak to your opponent/TO before the game to clarify.
2019/05/03 12:41:05
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
VladimirHerzog wrote: I had a game recently where i used the stratagem to get another turn with reign of confusion active.
My callidus died mid-battle round and i kept taxing the CP cost of my opponent's stratagems.
An onlooker told me that if the callidus dies, the tax doesnt apply anymore.
Is a unit not considered "in your army" if it has died? From my understanding , "in your army" simply meant that it was in your list.
She is still in your army, even if she died.
Any source for that statement? I'd like to prove it to the guy with more than just "someone said so in a forum". To me it seems obvious.
Is she on your army list? If so, she's in your army. This isn't a trick question.
What if she isn't in the army list, aka I use 85 reinforcement points and the assasin stratagem to field her? Then she's not in the army list, but is she part of the army? Or does it mean that if you go through the stratagem you cannot ever use the CP tax ability?
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2019/05/03 13:07:46
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
Phew, i went to sleep thinking i was right and now i see thats its actually a point of debate. Clarification on the meaning of "in your army" is required.
2019/05/03 13:46:14
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
What if she isn't in the army list, aka I use 85 reinforcement points and the assasin stratagem to field her? Then she's not in the army list, but is she part of the army? Or does it mean that if you go through the stratagem you cannot ever use the CP tax ability?
Read the Stratagem again...
It clearly says you may "add one OFFICIO ASSASSINORUM unit of your choice to your Army"
So even using that, she is a 'part of your army', at least at the start of the game anyway.
2019/05/03 19:02:51
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2019/05/04 07:28:26
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
BaconCatBug wrote: "In your army" is synonymous with "on your army list". Being removed from the battlefield doesn't remove the unit from the army. If it did you'd never get victory points for slaying anything.
No, it really is not synonymous. If it were then summoning would not work.
If you have 85 reserve points you do not have a Callidus on your army list, so adding one with the stratagem would by your logic not add her to your army because it is synonymous with being on your list. Clearly that is not correct therefore your assertion must be incorrect.
Models can be added to your army which are not on your list. Once we accept that fact then models being removed from your army which were originally on your list is a rather obvious concept and corresponds exactly with normal English language usage regarding casualties of war.
All that the verbiage of in your army does is enable you to use that rule while she is still in reserves.
2019/05/04 07:45:13
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
BaconCatBug wrote: "In your army" is synonymous with "on your army list". Being removed from the battlefield doesn't remove the unit from the army. If it did you'd never get victory points for slaying anything.
No, it really is not synonymous. If it were then summoning would not work.
If you have 85 reserve points you do not have a Callidus on your army list, so adding one with the stratagem would by your logic not add her to your army because it is synonymous with being on your list. Clearly that is not correct therefore your assertion must be incorrect.
Models can be added to your army which are not on your list. Once we accept that fact then models being removed from your army which were originally on your list is a rather obvious concept and corresponds exactly with normal English language usage regarding casualties of war.
All that the verbiage of in your army does is enable you to use that rule while she is still in reserves.
Did you read the stratagem?
WARHAMMER 40,000 WARHAMMER 40,000 UPDATE APRIL 2019 wrote:You can only use this Stratagem if your Warlord has the Imperium Faction keyword (excluding Fallen) and your army does not contain any Officio Assassinorum units. Use this Stratagem during deployment. Add 1 Officio Assassinorum unit of your choice to your army. Remember that in a matched play game, you must pay reinforcement points for any new unit added to your army. You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.
You can add models to your army that were not on your list. It does not follow that being slain removes them from your army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/04 07:46:06
2019/05/04 08:06:54
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
WARHAMMER 40,000 WARHAMMER 40,000 UPDATE APRIL 2019 wrote:You can only use this Stratagem if your Warlord has the Imperium Faction keyword (excluding Fallen) and your army does not contain any Officio Assassinorum units. Use this Stratagem during deployment. Add 1 Officio Assassinorum unit of your choice to your army. Remember that in a matched play game, you must pay reinforcement points for any new unit added to your army. You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.
You can add models to your army that were not on your list. It does not follow that being slain removes them from your army.
I did and you make my exact point. It says add one model to your army - that is not on your army list. So army list and army are not one and the same thing, your army can and will vary from your list over time due to events which take place. Your whole argument was based on army list and army being synonymous but they are not - so you need to either go find another line of reasoning or just accept normal English language usage that fatalities that leave the army in a box have left the army.
As for the original question, you must have a Callidus Assassin in your army at the time you declare the stratagem at the start of a battle round. She need not be on the table but she must be in your army at that time. Once you declare the stratagem it persists for the entire battle round and has no further dependence on you having a Callidus Assassin in your army.
2019/05/04 09:14:46
Subject: Does the Callidus' Reign of confusion work if she was destroyed?
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