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So, you’d refuse to play me if I brought an endless spell, a general and a max sized unit of a basic troop?

I know it’s tough, but that’s like refusing to play against an opponent deep striking Bloodletters in 40k. Feels just kind of final to refuse a game based on that.

This is what I love about forum discussions, talking about rules in a vacuum without any context or counter actions taken into consideration. The 3 inch requirement on that endless spell is a big deal. Don't act like its easy to bypass, the number of "auto-kill" units that fit in a 3inch bubble with an obstacle in the middle are not numerous, and of the ones that do several are not going to be happy about missing a model. Especially on turn one, protecting something you don't want attacked is really not all that difficult, proper screening is a thing (a tactical thing at that) and any decent player is going to severely limit your turn 1 options with this spell. As several other reasonable voices have already stated on this thread, the utility of this spell in the most competitive circles is probably going to mostly be in objective shenanigans and getting slower support units where they need to be in armies that have diverse movement ranges or taking advantage of a gap in your opponents battle line mid game, all things I see as tactical. I am sure when this first hits the tourney scene you will see a decent amount of alpha striking with it killing off carelessly placed characters and units, and people will quickly adapt and learn. It is in the random games at the local gaming store that this thing is going to get a bad rap, where people who only play casually and are not particularly good will continuously get stomped by this type of thing, as they likely would have gotten stomped anyways by someone playing a "competitive" list in a casual setting.

Double turn works very similarly. In a casual game without a lot of preparation and lists built explicitly with the mechanic in mind, I am sure it often seems like an unimaginable obstacle that simply cannot be overcome. Like with all things in a casual setting, however, house rules are easily implemented. But in a competitive setting (watch some tourney streams at top tables) you will repeatedly find people get double turned and shockingly manage to win. You will repeatedly find people carefully maneuvering units specifically with the understanding that a double turn could occur and I have personally played several games in a non-competitive setting at that where a double turn occurred appearing to swing things one way only to immediately be followed up by another double turn swinging the balance, again, into the opposite direction. Is it possible to build a list entirely around the maximization of the double turn? Yes, of course it is. Is that list going to decimate some people, yes it will. But over the course of a tournament that player is going to fail to get some double turns and their completely all in list is going to get stomped. Or they are going to run into someone who efficiently and methodically screens their most important units and that double turn list finds itself having thrown everything it has into the opponent with a double turn now staring right back at them without having accomplished anything. The game has some serious balance issues right now with Skaven, FEC, and DoK and power creep, no doubt about it, but if you notice multiple tourneys of late have seen older books or non OP lists taking top 3 spots, because for once GW has a game where the fundamental game rules are not the issue, allowing the best players to often find ways to beat up on even the OP stuff in the game.

I was fully ready to panic when I heard they were going to release mercenary rules. But it looks like they are going to be a non factor in competitive play, and these endless spells, while some of them will see utility, none of them are overpowered. So lets take a deep breath and wait to see what the generals handbook has in store for us and see if it is able to bring Skaven, FEC, and DoK back into line. There will always be a litany of models and rules that confound casual players and cannot be overcome without skill or proper list design. Anything that does a lot of damage in a short time, is super fast, or is like the double turn, something intrinsic to the game, but that too often I see completely ignored in first turn play even though everyone knows it is coming only to treat it as some random one off event they just can't believe is fair or possible. If you just want to throw dice and drink bears house rule it out, and for everyone else just plan for it, don't panic and make poor decisions after it happens, and you will be shocked how often you are able to recover afterwards. I am no great gamer and have myself lost to several double turns and alpha strikes, but I have seen streams of great players calmly and efficiently overcome these using skill and tactics, so I know it can be done. I don't know almost any competitive players (many of whom do not take lists specifically engineered to capitalize on double turns) who dislike the mechanic. That tells me as much as anything that it is not broken, just misunderstood.

tripchimeras wrote:
This is what I love about forum discussions, talking about rules in a vacuum without any context or counter actions taken into consideration. The 3 inch requirement on that endless spell is a big deal. Don't act like its easy to bypass, the number of "auto-kill" units that fit in a 3inch bubble with an obstacle in the middle are not numerous, and of the ones that do several are not going to be happy about missing a model. Especially on turn one, protecting something you don't want attacked is really not all that difficult, proper screening is a thing (a tactical thing at that) and any decent player is going to severely limit your turn 1 options with this spell. As several other reasonable voices have already stated on this thread, the utility of this spell in the most competitive circles is probably going to mostly be in objective shenanigans and getting slower support units where they need to be in armies that have diverse movement ranges or taking advantage of a gap in your opponents battle line mid game, all things I see as tactical. I am sure when this first hits the tourney scene you will see a decent amount of alpha striking with it killing off carelessly placed characters and units, and people will quickly adapt and learn. It is in the random games at the local gaming store that this thing is going to get a bad rap, where people who only play casually and are not particularly good will continuously get stomped by this type of thing, as they likely would have gotten stomped anyways by someone playing a "competitive" list in a casual setting.

Double turn works very similarly. In a casual game without a lot of preparation and lists built explicitly with the mechanic in mind, I am sure it often seems like an unimaginable obstacle that simply cannot be overcome. Like with all things in a casual setting, however, house rules are easily implemented. But in a competitive setting (watch some tourney streams at top tables) you will repeatedly find people get double turned and shockingly manage to win. You will repeatedly find people carefully maneuvering units specifically with the understanding that a double turn could occur and I have personally played several games in a non-competitive setting at that where a double turn occurred appearing to swing things one way only to immediately be followed up by another double turn swinging the balance, again, into the opposite direction. Is it possible to build a list entirely around the maximization of the double turn? Yes, of course it is. Is that list going to decimate some people, yes it will. But over the course of a tournament that player is going to fail to get some double turns and their completely all in list is going to get stomped. Or they are going to run into someone who efficiently and methodically screens their most important units and that double turn list finds itself having thrown everything it has into the opponent with a double turn now staring right back at them without having accomplished anything. The game has some serious balance issues right now with Skaven, FEC, and DoK and power creep, no doubt about it, but if you notice multiple tourneys of late have seen older books or non OP lists taking top 3 spots, because for once GW has a game where the fundamental game rules are not the issue, allowing the best players to often find ways to beat up on even the OP stuff in the game.

I was fully ready to panic when I heard they were going to release mercenary rules. But it looks like they are going to be a non factor in competitive play, and these endless spells, while some of them will see utility, none of them are overpowered. So lets take a deep breath and wait to see what the generals handbook has in store for us and see if it is able to bring Skaven, FEC, and DoK back into line. There will always be a litany of models and rules that confound casual players and cannot be overcome without skill or proper list design. Anything that does a lot of damage in a short time, is super fast, or is like the double turn, something intrinsic to the game, but that too often I see completely ignored in first turn play even though everyone knows it is coming only to treat it as some random one off event they just can't believe is fair or possible. If you just want to throw dice and drink bears house rule it out, and for everyone else just plan for it, don't panic and make poor decisions after it happens, and you will be shocked how often you are able to recover afterwards. I am no great gamer and have myself lost to several double turns and alpha strikes, but I have seen streams of great players calmly and efficiently overcome these using skill and tactics, so I know it can be done. I don't know almost any competitive players (many of whom do not take lists specifically engineered to capitalize on double turns) who dislike the mechanic. That tells me as much as anything that it is not broken, just misunderstood.

In regards to the combo I found and posted, the models are on 25mm bases; it’s pretty easy to get a unit of them around the boat right away (trick: grab an empty base the size of the boat for setup and place the models around it to ensure they fit). The trick is having a big enough unit that losing one doesn’t hurt, but they can make the spell cost worth it. Hence a 25mm unit between 20-30 models with a lot of attacks. Daemonettes fit the description to a T. I won’t consider myself a top player. Like...at all. But I think this is a power play and I would absolutely take it to a tournament. If I can melt Skarbrand/Archaon/Alarielle/etc with a single Nett-Bomb (do the math, law of averages smokes anything except big fleshy abundance unit/Morathi). Daemonettes are already great. Add a movement booster to them like this and watch the curses just spew from your opponent’s mouth.

That "trick" with the base is something that would very much be frowned upon in most play.

Additionally, it's amazing that people seem to not understand that just because you summon it? You aren't always going to be in control of it.

People talking bout free boat rides while I'm just sitting here here bravery bombing with Big Giant Head, Grim Garland and 20 banshee screams at effectively 2D6+4 in FEC.

True; but you get first crack w/it.
And in regards to putting a blank base in for spacial awareness; why not? It’s the same as pre-measuring. I’d honestly laugh at anyone trying to prevent me from measuring (quickly) how to space out my unit. If you can premeasure, you can do this; cuz that’s all it is. Just because less than a handful of people online would get bent out shape about it doesn’t make it wrong; I’m pretty sure most opponents will say “why didn’t I think of that” and steal the trick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
People talking bout three men in a boat while I'm just sitting here here bravery bombing with Big Giant Head, Grim Garland and 20 banshee screams at effectively 2D6+4 in FEC.

And hey; I’m talking about thirty girls in a boat!

 timetowaste85 wrote:
So, you’d refuse to play me if I brought an endless spell, a general and a max sized unit of a basic troop?

I know it’s tough, but that’s like refusing to play against an opponent deep striking Bloodletters in 40k. Feels just kind of final to refuse a game based on that.

I don't play random games in the first place, so you and I had we lived in the same city would likely never play anyway. My AOS games are all heavily house ruled because the game as written is not a game I'd every play for a couple of reasons I have already discussed in the past. My preference for games is based on classical wargames - where maneuver and battlefield management are priority to list building and point and click teleporting murder units into combat with whatever you want. If I want to play that game I'll break out my magic cards. The setup and putaway in magic is much lighter than breaking out models and having to put them away. Thats not personal attack, thats my preference in tabletop wargames and what I'm looking to get out of them.

Second - yes. If you are playing in a manner that is going for the one-two KO turn 1, thats not a game that I enjoy. I wouldn't spend my time driving to the game store, unpacking my models, deploying my models, having you get the double turn, winning the game, and that be that. Thats a giant waste of my time. Its not that you brought an endless spell, a general, and a max sized unit of basic troops. Thats pretty disingenuous to try and equate what I said with that conclusion. If you were playing to point and click murder units at me with the effort of breathing and having a working heart beat to one or two turn table me, I have no reason to want to play that game.

If for whatever reason we were in a tournament facing each other, that would be a different matter. For a one off game that was my leisure time, thats not very leisurely to me.

Hey, if you have to deny a game because your opponent had the audacity to not be in your clique of buddies and dared to bring a max sized troop unit, an HQ and an endless spell and didn’t want to just throw the game, I’d say that’s more your problem than mine. You’re right about one thing though; it’s a good thing we aren’t playing in the same places. Because it definitely sounds like you’re promoting a bit of casual-elitism. If I play an opponent and they aren’t asking for a “beginner, I’m just learning” game, I’m not going to insult them by dumbing myself down so they can curbstomb me to feel better about their “skills”. I actually had more respect for you on here until you said “that endless spell is too good with your army, I’d walk away from a game with you if you brought it”. The take-my-ball-and-leave attitude is silly.

In regards to the boat in alternate unit activation, it isn't about a killer unit, it is about slinging an anvil unit forward then having it charge and pull as many enemy units into 3" as possible. One activation and you can entirely gut the opponent's movement capacity for the whole round since all of those units are now locked in melee. Even without charging you can run it and have it create a big line in front of the enemy. The latter, come to think of it, would be great to use in regular turn function as well, though not quite as strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Hey, if you have to deny a game because your opponent had the audacity to not be in your clique of buddies and dared to bring a max sized troop unit, an HQ and an endless spell and didn’t want to just throw the game, I’d say that’s more your problem than mine. You’re right about one thing though; it’s a good thing we aren’t playing in the same places. Because it definitely sounds like you’re promoting a bit of casual-elitism. If I play an opponent and they aren’t asking for a “beginner, I’m just learning” game, I’m not going to insult them by dumbing myself down so they can curbstomb me to feel better about their “skills”. I actually had more respect for you on here until you said “that endless spell is too good with your army, I’d walk away from a game with you if you brought it”. The take-my-ball-and-leave attitude is silly.

I think you guys misinterpreting each other. From what I see, Auticus means that he does not want to play casual games against people going for round-1 wins, you are saying that bombing with 30 daemonettes is not a round-1 win tactic. They don't actually apply to each other.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
True; but you get first crack w/it.
And in regards to putting a blank base in for spacial awareness; why not? It’s the same as pre-measuring. I’d honestly laugh at anyone trying to prevent me from measuring (quickly) how to space out my unit. If you can premeasure, you can do this; cuz that’s all it is. Just because less than a handful of people online would get bent out shape about it doesn’t make it wrong; I’m pretty sure most opponents will say “why didn’t I think of that” and steal the trick.

So you'd let me have a treeless Wildwoods base to make sure that I would have stuff wholly within?

You say "it's the same thing as premeasuring", but it's not. You've got a prop in play that could bump things or move stuff around or do any number of things that might give you an advantage from "oops" moments.

I'm sure someone out there will have no problem with it, but I've seen too many people attempt to game the system with crap like that. Big reason why I am soooooooooo glad templates are gone.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
People talking bout three men in a boat while I'm just sitting here here bravery bombing with Big Giant Head, Grim Garland and 20 banshee screams at effectively 2D6+4 in FEC.

And hey; I’m talking about thirty girls in a boat!

No, you're talking about an exhaustively tiresome measuring/setup process before placing a spell and a strategy that is intended for an early game alpha strike.

If the prop bumps models then you point it out and have them move them back, anything can bump models around. Or do you ban hands for their potential role in cheating?

Well, Kan is the kind of guy who refused a duplicated pistol from me in Borderlands once, so...

And yes, Kan, I’d totally be okay with you holding a wildwood over your unit to confirm they fit within it. Why not?!

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Hey, if you have to deny a game because your opponent had the audacity to not be in your clique of buddies and dared to bring a max sized troop unit, an HQ and an endless spell and didn’t want to just throw the game, I’d say that’s more your problem than mine. You’re right about one thing though; it’s a good thing we aren’t playing in the same places. Because it definitely sounds like you’re promoting a bit of casual-elitism. If I play an opponent and they aren’t asking for a “beginner, I’m just learning” game, I’m not going to insult them by dumbing myself down so they can curbstomb me to feel better about their “skills”. I actually had more respect for you on here until you said “that endless spell is too good with your army, I’d walk away from a game with you if you brought it”. The take-my-ball-and-leave attitude is silly.

If you say so. You're obviously a competitive player looking for competitive games. Hats off to you. AOS is not the game I'm interested in doing that with. I'm not looking to play a game that can be decided in turn 1 or 2. That spell with a lot of armies is not something I'd be interested in playing games with, and I realize I can do the same tactic myself. Any game where you have the ability to teleport units into combat with no reaction from your opponent is not a game I'll be playing period.

If that offends you, I dont' know what else to say to you. I am allowed to dictate where my free time goes, and its not going to games where I'm having no fun at all and am miserable, regardless of the social shaming techniques employed to try to make me feel bad. I have a trophy room full of whfb era wins and several GT top 10s to know that I can git gud in any environment with the best of them, but distilling my game down to the top 10% to prove a point or have a good game is not a good time for me any longer. I spent over a decade doing that in the past and it burnt me out.

In AOS I'm looking to play a casual game with casual lists that are not tourney cut throat lists designed to win efficiently. I do play those games, just not in AOS. So if I'm an AOS player looking for a casual game with a casual list and you are there with what I perceive to be a tournament list, we aren't going to have any fun playing each other. You will win that game in a couple of turns 10 out of 10 times, there's no point in wasting the hour setting up and tearing down the game to come to that obvious conclusion and I'm not interested in building and painting tournament powered lists in AOS that I have to constantly change out every year to keep up with GW's bad balancing so that we could have a fun game.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
If the prop bumps models then you point it out and have them move them back, anything can bump models around. Or do you ban hands for their potential role in cheating?

If someone's got a prop and they bump it, then it can lead to a whole other argument regarding intention or "did it really though?". Very rarely will someone not acknowledge if they bumped something with their hand.

The claim is that it's "the same as premeasuring", so just premeasure and be done with it. You're already going to be stretching out what should be an easy placement thing into a more tedious exercise with that nonsense, don't throw more moving parts into the mix.

Do you also ban 3" measuring gauges?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Do you also ban 3" measuring gauges?

I don't "ban" anything, you understand that right? For me, if I'm playing in a more competitive event--I expect things to be moving quick. If you can't eyeball it--I'm going to ask you not to do it.


Also--those gauges actually are set up to not bump stuff as much so it isn't really an issue.

Auticus, if you’re looking to play a Warscroll-only game w/ no tomes, I’d go for it. If you want to play a game w/no endless spells at all, I’d go for it. If you told me I can’t use the boat because it’s too good in my army, but anybody else could, or didn’t deny other endless spells or something (that could be too good for somebody ELSE’S army), I wouldn’t be. And as for the ASL/exploding stuff? They’re inherent rules to my book. So yes, it’s a strong combo with minimal stuff; but it’s inherent stuff to the book. Short of denying all battletomes and only playing Warscrolls, it would be a breakage of the game. I’m paying for those abilities inside each unit.I have this combo; and somebody else has an awesome combo that can counter it (throw Morathi or Fleshy Abundance’d marauders/plaguebearers in front of me). I’ll play in a battletome-free or endless spell-free environment. But I wouldn’t cut out part of my battletome unless everybody else’s was shaved down as well. And I don’t think that’s unreasonable. Fair for one is fair for all.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Do you also ban 3" measuring gauges?

I don't "ban" anything, you understand that right? For me, if I'm playing in a more competitive event--I expect things to be moving quick. If you can't eyeball it--I'm going to ask you not to do it.


Also--those gauges actually are set up to not bump stuff as much so it isn't really an issue.

My point being that having a free base to put models around is just a tool to expedite movement and make things faster. When it comes to having a unit wholly within 3" just eyeballing things may not cut it, so you can wait while they employ the measuring tool, or wait much longer while they pre-measure manually without it.

Also, you said before you had a problem with models being bumped slightly out of position but now you are saying to just eyeball things? That doesn't make sense. Do you care about the exact measurement being precise or do you not?

I wouldn't ever tell a person that they cannot use something but other people can. I don't tell people how they can play.

My games are all campaign based. In our campaign we have houserules. In our campaign we use alternate activation, so that spell doesn't bother me as much because I can react after you have done your thing.

I'm speaking in general in a no house ruled environment, if I'm going to play AOS then I'm looking to play a game that is fun and engaging for both parties.

That bridge spell is all about teleporting murder units directly into combat and cutting that army's heart out as fast as possible. Thats not a playstyle that I enjoy in the least. The time setting up and tearing down exceeds the time that that game lasts.

I never made mention to cutting anything out of anyone's battle tome either.

I'm playing the same army as you are in this campaign season as well.

The only combo to that is running certain lists. I will always oppose that type of gameplay and never participate in that style of game, where you have to run specific counters or auto-lose. I'm speaking from both ends of the table. I have no interest in winning games either based on the fact my opponent didn't bring the exact correct counter list.

Those are both wastes of time to me because I'm not looking for a game won in the listbuilding phase.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Do you also ban 3" measuring gauges?

I don't "ban" anything, you understand that right? For me, if I'm playing in a more competitive event--I expect things to be moving quick. If you can't eyeball it--I'm going to ask you not to do it.


Also--those gauges actually are set up to not bump stuff as much so it isn't really an issue.

My point being that having a free base to put models around is just a tool to expedite movement and make things faster. When it comes to having a unit wholly within 3" just eyeballing things may not cut it, so you can wait while they employ the measuring tool, or wait much longer while they pre-measure manually without it.

Also, you said before you had a problem with models being bumped slightly out of position but now you are saying to just eyeball things? That doesn't make sense. Do you care about the exact measurement being precise or do you not?

 timetowaste85 wrote:


In regards to the combo I found and posted, the models are on 25mm bases; it’s pretty easy to get a unit of them around the boat right away (trick: grab an empty base the size of the boat for setup and place the models around it to ensure they fit). The trick is having a big enough unit that losing one doesn’t hurt, but they can make the spell cost worth it. Hence a 25mm unit between 20-30 models with a lot of attacks. Daemonettes fit the description to a T. I won’t consider myself a top player. Like...at all. But I think this is a power play and I would absolutely take it to a tournament. If I can melt Skarbrand/Archaon/Alarielle/etc with a single Nett-Bomb (do the math, law of averages smokes anything except big fleshy abundance unit/Morathi). Daemonettes are already great. Add a movement booster to them like this and watch the curses just spew from your opponent’s mouth.

I would not consider deep striking a unit of daemonets into combat turn 1 much of a power move to be honest. No one is going to leave their characters just out their alone with that spell in play if they are something you have a unit that can melt in one round of combat. Slaanesh is already one of the faster armies in the game to begin with, and I question that they even need this spell. Also despite the damage output of its units it is too fragile of a book to be an all out offensive powerhouse long term, I don't think that is going to be the best play for it. Any army with any amount of screeners or cheap units is going to laugh at you if that is your play. The truly brutal single models in this game like the Terrorgheist character are not going to care about a "nett-bomb" to begin with, and the armies that excel at deep striking right now (like deepkin) do not need to be able to get to 3 inches next to you in movement to get in a turn 1 charge. Which has us circle around to, competitive lists have to be able to deal with deep strike turn 1 charges already, this is nothing but a guaranteed deepstrike charge on a non-big based unit. If you have a list that has no answer to this, you have a list that is already not going to compete in competitive play. As with so many things, out of context and removed from reality something like a turn 1 charge of 30 daemonettes into Archaon sounds AWESOME. In reality what it looks like is only a 60-70% chance you get the spell off to begin with (and that's assuming opponent doesn't have a dispel scroll) and even if you do get it off you are not running the daemonetts into archaeon or whatever you are running them into a screener, which means you just traded a unit of 30 daemonetts (I am taking your word on them being able to fit in that 3 inch bubble, I haven't done the math) for something like a 100-150 pt unit in all likelihood. This is the problem with theoryhammer and panicking about new crap like this. How it works on paper is rarely how it works on game. Same goes with crap like Thanquil and warpfire throwers, when the book first came out people went crazy over the damage potential, yet thus far they are not in the competitive lists. Because good players are never ever going to let those units get shots into anything that matters, and their limitations prevent you from forcing the issue. This is the same. This is going to be something that is best used defensively, objective control, and as a psychological tool to keep your oponent thinking about it. Not as a broken instant kill there best stuff button.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Do you also ban 3" measuring gauges?

I don't "ban" anything, you understand that right? For me, if I'm playing in a more competitive event--I expect things to be moving quick. If you can't eyeball it--I'm going to ask you not to do it.


Also--those gauges actually are set up to not bump stuff as much so it isn't really an issue.

My point being that having a free base to put models around is just a tool to expedite movement and make things faster. When it comes to having a unit wholly within 3" just eyeballing things may not cut it, so you can wait while they employ the measuring tool, or wait much longer while they pre-measure manually without it.

Also, you said before you had a problem with models being bumped slightly out of position but now you are saying to just eyeball things? That doesn't make sense. Do you care about the exact measurement being precise or do you not?

It doesn't make things faster though. All it does is make it so you're placing a base down and doing measurements around the base. Why aren't you just placing the unit starting with the first model and going from there?

It really should not be this hard for you to understand that "eyeballing it" would, in this context, mean continuing placement from your initial placed model for the unit.

tripchimeras wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:


In regards to the combo I found and posted, the models are on 25mm bases; it’s pretty easy to get a unit of them around the boat right away (trick: grab an empty base the size of the boat for setup and place the models around it to ensure they fit). The trick is having a big enough unit that losing one doesn’t hurt, but they can make the spell cost worth it. Hence a 25mm unit between 20-30 models with a lot of attacks. Daemonettes fit the description to a T. I won’t consider myself a top player. Like...at all. But I think this is a power play and I would absolutely take it to a tournament. If I can melt Skarbrand/Archaon/Alarielle/etc with a single Nett-Bomb (do the math, law of averages smokes anything except big fleshy abundance unit/Morathi). Daemonettes are already great. Add a movement booster to them like this and watch the curses just spew from your opponent’s mouth.

I would not consider deep striking a unit of daemonets into combat turn 1 much of a power move to be honest. No one is going to leave their characters just out their alone with that spell in play if they are something you have a unit that can melt in one round of combat. Slaanesh is already one of the faster armies in the game to begin with, and I question that they even need this spell. Also despite the damage output of its units it is too fragile of a book to be an all out offensive powerhouse long term, I don't think that is going to be the best play for it. Any army with any amount of screeners or cheap units is going to laugh at you if that is your play. The truly brutal single models in this game like the Terrorgheist character are not going to care about a "nett-bomb" to begin with, and the armies that excel at deep striking right now (like deepkin) do not need to be able to get to 3 inches next to you in movement to get in a turn 1 charge. Which has us circle around to, competitive lists have to be able to deal with deep strike turn 1 charges already, this is nothing but a guaranteed deepstrike charge on a non-big based unit. If you have a list that has no answer to this, you have a list that is already not going to compete in competitive play. As with so many things, out of context and removed from reality something like a turn 1 charge of 30 daemonettes into Archaon sounds AWESOME. In reality what it looks like is only a 60-70% chance you get the spell off to begin with (and that's assuming opponent doesn't have a dispel scroll) and even if you do get it off you are not running the daemonetts into archaeon or whatever you are running them into a screener, which means you just traded a unit of 30 daemonetts (I am taking your word on them being able to fit in that 3 inch bubble, I haven't done the math) for something like a 100-150 pt unit in all likelihood. This is the problem with theoryhammer and panicking about new crap like this. How it works on paper is rarely how it works on game. Same goes with crap like Thanquil and warpfire throwers, when the book first came out people went crazy over the damage potential, yet thus far they are not in the competitive lists. Because good players are never ever going to let those units get shots into anything that matters, and their limitations prevent you from forcing the issue. This is the same. This is going to be something that is best used defensively, objective control, and as a psychological tool to keep your oponent thinking about it. Not as a broken instant kill there best stuff button.

I have already watched a game where this was used via proxy of the boat since its rules were released. What you are saying is dependent on the army having screens, which not every army does. Additionally it forces every army to deploy a certain way even if they have screens so its a heavy handed implement forcing your opponent to do something. In this case its forcing an army that has screens, and its forcing them be deployed in a certain way to counter.

If an army has no screens, is low model count, etc... this is a pretty solid way to heart attack them from the beginning.

You're coming at this from the powergamer standpoint, where everyone is running powergamer lists. Casual lists are a whole different world and this teleport into combat spell kicks those lists in the face. Though you are correct, in the powergamer arena you have to deal with all kinds of powerlisting shenanigans. But you are ignoring the casual lists which are not built to withstand listbuilding I-Win boxes. (which is what makes them casual lists)

Additionally - I wasn't aware that dispel scrolls existed in AOS. I must have missed that one. Where are those, that would be quite useful?

 auticus wrote:


I have already watched a game where this was used via proxy of the boat since its rules were released. What you are saying is dependent on the army having screens, which not every army does. Additionally it forces every army to deploy a certain way even if they have screens so its a heavy handed implement forcing your opponent to do something. In this case its forcing an army that has screens, and its forcing them be deployed in a certain way to counter.

If an army has no screens, is low model count, etc... this is a pretty solid way to heart attack them from the beginning.

You're coming at this from the powergamer standpoint, where everyone is running powergamer lists. Casual lists are a whole different world and this teleport into combat spell kicks those lists in the face. Though you are correct, in the powergamer arena you have to deal with all kinds of powerlisting shenanigans. But you are ignoring the casual lists which are not built to withstand listbuilding I-Win boxes. (which is what makes them casual lists)

Additionally - I wasn't aware that dispel scrolls existed in AOS. I must have missed that one. Where are those, that would be quite useful?

On Dispel scrolls there are multiple models that come with a built in rule that allows them to auto dispel 1 spell, dispel scroll I use as shorthand for all of those models. Off the top of my head the wanderers mage as well as one of the mages for stormcast have it. Both are often seen in competitive lists as allies as a result.

EDIT: here's an example of a "dispel scroll": https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-spellweaver-en.pdf

As for the rest of it, the people I have always played with like strategy and see list building as part of that strategy so we have always gone for competitive builds. Now if I am going to a local gaming store or something and know I might play random people, or am playing someone new I am always going to bring a "soft" list with me so we all can have fun. But if you aren't a power gamer and are a casual I don't get why any of this matters? You yourself have stated repeatedly in this thread you play almost exclusively with house rules and against a set group of friends you know well. That's great, but why does any of this matter in that case? If you guys do not want to adapt your lists to deal with deep strike then don't use deep strike. If you want to play almost exclusively narrative campaigns and just use stuff that fits that mold, do that, enjoy. Balance in a game only maters if you are actually playing that game. And what I am telling you is that there are all sorts of things to mitigate the effectiveness of this ability, meaning that in all likelihood it is going to be a common competitive sighting, but by no means a broken one. If you actively choose not to take the things that can eliminate or mitigate its effectiveness, then that is your choice, but do not then say that X thing cannot be beaten, because it can, you are just actively choosing not to do so. Every army in the game has access to screeners of some kind, some are better then others, but they are all there. And if I am missing a book that doesn't have access, guess what? That's what allies are for. The very mechanics that you say make this spell so damn good already exist in multiple top tier armies, meaning that it is not going to change the meta one iota, and competitive lists that are going to have ways to deal with it, if they didn't those same lists are going to get steamrolled by the likes of deepkin and stormcast. In non-competitive play why does it matter? If you play a balanced list you are going to have ways to stop this spell within reason, and if you are playing a themed army that has no answer to deepstrike, I would explain that to your opponents and not play games where there is more then a small amount of deep striking... There is always going to be the one guy in a gamestore who likes to bring power builds to casual games because he wants to feel big and powerful and that jerkoff has plenty of options to choose from already if you are taking something without chaffe. So what I am saying is, this spell changes nothing meaning it is not broken. In competitive play it is not going to change what you are taking, in non-competitive play I really don't think it matters. So why do you care about it. Ban the spell, or change how it works, sounds like you are already doing that for everything else.

To those who want to play the game as intended, but want to just take a middle of the road balanced list you have tools you can use as previously stated. A balanced list should have some screaners, and it should have some chaffe, and it probably shouldn't be entirely dependent on a single unit to win. If that is true someone using this spell in moderation will obviously present you with a challenge, but not one you can't overcome. To me that makes it good, not broken. If this spell is that OP I can't even imagine what people must say about souscryers...

What units are people suggesting to sling forward anyways? 30 daemonettes has been raised but I have I hard time seeing that as being overpowered verses just an effective tactic. I guess what I am looking for is an example of a the spell in question actually being overpowered. Taking an already OP unit and delivering it is just exploiting that unit; were the unit non-OP the combo would also be so it logically follows that the spell is not the issue.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I guess what I am looking for is an example of a the spell in question actually being overpowered.

I saw 4 powergamers on Twitter talking about how they used the spell in conjunction with 6 Battlesmiths and they one shotted Archaon, double turned into the next table and wrecked both of those armies. All during the "list building" phase.

In other words, the crux of what OP was originally doom mongering about in regards to the new mercenary rules didn't pan out, so he's moved on to the next thing to doom monger about. The cycle continues!

 timetowaste85 wrote:
So, you’d refuse to play me if I brought an endless spell, a general and a max sized unit of a basic troop?

It's more than that. You're picking a particular command trait and intentionally trying to set up a quadruple smash. This type of thing (a 4+ part combo) isn't happening by accident. People have different goals for their gaming and combining an intentionally built combo list and a list built based on what the person wanted to paint, thought looked cool or had cool background fiction is probably a bad idea.

so he's moved on to the next thing to doom monger about. The cycle continues!

You really can't have any form of discussion about things that rub you the wrong way, it has to be all cheery. And then the public shame game starts to come by to ask you "who hurt you?"

Gotcha.

Signing out.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
So, you’d refuse to play me if I brought an endless spell, a general and a max sized unit of a basic troop?

It's more than that. You're picking a particular command trait and intentionally trying to set up a quadruple smash. This type of thing (a 4+ part combo) isn't happening by accident. People have different goals for their gaming and combining an intentionally built combo list and a list built based on what the person wanted to paint, thought looked cool or had cool background fiction is probably a bad idea.

Except that I’m not. The KoS (basic greater Daemon of Slaanesh) has a specific command trait. All heroes also get an ability (KOS just more likely for it to go off), and all Slaanesh models have explosive 6’s. Using an ability that all heroes in the book get, plus a command ability on the KoS that existed since AoS came out that has remained unchanged isn’t “picking it on purpose”. And I’m not fishing for a double turn; I’m just saying it’s possible. Would you say Morathi can’t turn into a big snake after only being able to take a max of 3 wounds in a turn? No, because that’s part of her ability. I don’t get the asinine attempts to limit this. It’s a three part combo, one part of which EVERY player can use, and the other two parts just utilize my army’s special rules. And honestly, I don’t even NEED the boat spell to do it. Would anyone have an issue with a 20-seeker unit that can move 16, run 2D6, charge 2D6+3? Then swing with 80 attacks that explode on 6’s? Cuz that’s a regular unit of them after I cast chronomatic cogs. Plus a flying KoS that moves just as fast (fire cloak and run/charge command trait) to keep up? Slaanesh is an army that has always been a glass cannon. I’m just trying to focus more on the cannon aspect of that.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Except that I’m not. The KoS (basic greater Daemon of Slaanesh) has a specific command trait. All heroes also get an ability (KOS just more likely for it to go off), and all Slaanesh models have explosive 6’s. Using an ability that all heroes in the book get, plus a command ability on the KoS that existed since AoS came out that has remained unchanged isn’t “picking it on purpose”.

Wow. I didn't know you were locked into a specific command trait. I thought you could still choose one and that was an option. Thanks for the correction on that.