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Slaanesh's new star can do an extra fight after his first consolidation move in a fight thanks to his (her? its?) deadly symbiosis rule.




If Syll'Esske is placed into base contact with an opposing miniature (e.g. through Heroic Intervention) and cannot possibly move any closer to an enemy model, would this also deny the second swing (given there's no consolidation move), or would he (it?) still swing a second time after a hypothetical 0" consolidation "move"?

A consolidation move of 0" is a valid option, so you can attack again.

Moving 0 inches is finishing the consolidation move.

You dont have to physical move to do a consolidate, consolidation is in the rules for steps to follow, you do it after the consolidation step, it says up to 3" not 0.1-3''

Sorry.

Found the FAQ people on facebook were referring to that covers not being able to make a consolidate move, if you're already in base contact.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sorry.

Found the FAQ people on facebook were referring to that covers not being able to make a consolidate move, if you're already in base contact.

Facebook is not an official rules source.

However...

That says that the model can not move when the unit consolidates. (And as such will finish its move even if no one in the unit actually moved).

The unit still consolidates

Choosing not to consolidate is also finishing a consolidate move, as you’re not required to. Maybe the wording is clunky but it just means “resolve consolidate, if any, then do this”.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sorry.

Found the FAQ people on facebook were referring to that covers not being able to make a consolidate move, if you're already in base contact.

Facebook is not an official rules source.

However...

That says that the model can not move when the unit consolidates. (And as such will finish its move even if no one in the unit actually moved).

The unit still consolidates

The FAQ is the official GW FAQ. Just the conversation was on facebook.


Though I don't think the model can finish a move, if it is explicitly not allowed to move. The rule for the Slaanesh thingy states it needs to finish the move, and it's only eligible to do so, if it ends up closer (not equally as close, closer) to an enemy model than it was before. If it's already in base contact, it's impossible to move closer, hence the model isn't eligible for a consolidation move.

6. Consolidate
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this
move can be in any direction so long as the model ends
the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

You cannot consolidate if you cannot move. When in base contact you cant move closer.

 p5freak wrote:

6. Consolidate
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this
move can be in any direction so long as the model ends
the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

You cannot consolidate if you cannot move. When in base contact you cant move closer.

That's not what it says. It says when you consolidate you MAY move.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
The FAQ is the official GW FAQ. Just the conversation was on facebook.

Though I don't think the model can finish a move, if it is explicitly not allowed to move. The rule for the Slaanesh thingy states it needs to finish the move, and it's only eligible to do so, if it ends up closer (not equally as close, closer) to an enemy model than it was before. If it's already in base contact, it's impossible to move closer, hence the model isn't eligible for a consolidation move.

What FAQ is that in?

However:

"hence the model isn't eligible for a consolidation move." Consolidate says this "You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model."

You may... not must. Not moving is finishing the consolidation move ans the Deadly Symbiosis rule activates.

 DeathReaper wrote:
What FAQ is that in?

It's the Warhammer 40,000 8th edition Rulebook FAQ v1.4, about halfway down the first column on page 5.

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

6. Consolidate
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this
move can be in any direction so long as the model ends
the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

You cannot consolidate if you cannot move. When in base contact you cant move closer.

That's not what it says. It says when you consolidate you MAY move.

Yes, you may move. But when you move to consolidate you have to get closer to the nearest enemy model. You cant do when you already are in base contact. You cant end a move when you cant start to move.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sorry.

Found the FAQ people on facebook were referring to that covers not being able to make a consolidate move, if you're already in base contact.

Facebook is not an official rules source.

GW disagrees on you seeing they have put official text there and only there...

From facebook :

And a quick note on rules questions - we can’t give you official answers. We’re not the Games Designers, they’re locked up in the studio. We might be able to give you some general advice or point you in the right direction but better to try and work it out with your gaming buddies.

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

6. Consolidate
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this
move can be in any direction so long as the model ends
the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

You cannot consolidate if you cannot move. When in base contact you cant move closer.

That's not what it says. It says when you consolidate you MAY move.

Yes, you may move. But when you move to consolidate you have to get closer to the nearest enemy model. You cant do when you already are in base contact. You cant end a move when you cant start to move.

Right, but whether you move or not you've still done the Consolidate step. The move is optional when resolving it.

tneva82 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sorry.

Found the FAQ people on facebook were referring to that covers not being able to make a consolidate move, if you're already in base contact.

Facebook is not an official rules source.

GW disagrees on you seeing they have put official text there and only there...

Incorrect. GW does not disagree. The only real rules source are the GW rules/codexes, and the FAQ.

The Facebook page is not rules. Facebook literally says:

And a quick note on rules questions - we can’t give you official answers.

So they are 100000000000000% not a official rules source...

 p5freak wrote:
You cant end a move when you cant start to move.

Thankfully that does not matter. If you move or not you have still Consolidated.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Thankfully that does not matter. If you move or not you have still Consolidated.

In terms of charging GW disagrees with you. If you havent moved, you havent charged.

Q: When a unit is chosen to make a charge move and fails the
charge, do they still count as having charged? Specifically, can
a unit that has failed a charge move be chosen to pile in – and
potentially consolidate – towards the enemy?
A: A unit only counts as having charged if they made a
charge move. If a charge fails, and no models make a
charge move, they do not count as having charged.

I know consolidating is not charging. But i see no reason why GW would rule otherwise when it comes to consolidating.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Thankfully that does not matter. If you move or not you have still Consolidated.

In terms of charging GW disagrees with you. If you havent moved, you havent charged.

Q: When a unit is chosen to make a charge move and fails the
charge, do they still count as having charged? Specifically, can
a unit that has failed a charge move be chosen to pile in – and
potentially consolidate – towards the enemy?
A: A unit only counts as having charged if they made a
charge move. If a charge fails, and no models make a
charge move, they do not count as having charged.

I know consolidating is not charging. But i see no reason why GW would rule otherwise when it comes to consolidating.

That precedent doesn't apply. We know you can advance without moving. You just roll to advance, then you may move, but you don't have to.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Thankfully that does not matter. If you move or not you have still Consolidated.

In terms of charging GW disagrees with you. If you havent moved, you havent charged.

We are not talking about charging...

we are talking about Consolidating.

In terms of Advancing GW Agrees that rolling for advance, is advancing even if you do not move...

Ergo, the charging rules have no bearing on the rules for Consolidation...

 Stux wrote:

Right, but whether you move or not you've still done the Consolidate step. The move is optional when resolving it.

Sure. But if you opt not to do it (or cannot do it, because you cannot end up closer to an enemy model), Syll'Esske doesn't get his/her second swing, because he/she needs to complete a consolidation move, not just the consolidate step.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Right, but whether you move or not you've still done the Consolidate step. The move is optional when resolving it.

Sure. But if you opt not to do it (or cannot do it, because you cannot end up closer to an enemy model), Syll'Esske doesn't get his/her second swing, because he/she needs to complete a consolidation move, not just the consolidate step.

Except that moving 0 inches in a consolidation move is completing a consolidation move, and as such Deadly Symbiosis will activate.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Right, but whether you move or not you've still done the Consolidate step. The move is optional when resolving it.

Sure. But if you opt not to do it (or cannot do it, because you cannot end up closer to an enemy model), Syll'Esske doesn't get his/her second swing, because he/she needs to complete a consolidation move, not just the consolidate step.

Kind of reminds me of the argument about Leman Russ's not getting to double shoot because they didn't move in their movement phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Right, but whether you move or not you've still done the Consolidate step. The move is optional when resolving it.

Sure. But if you opt not to do it (or cannot do it, because you cannot end up closer to an enemy model), Syll'Esske doesn't get his/her second swing, because he/she needs to complete a consolidation move, not just the consolidate step.

Except that moving 0 inches in a consolidation move is completing a consolidation move, and as such Deadly Symbiosis will activate.

No. It's not. If you want to even begin a consolidation move, you need to check you can end up closer to the enemy model. If that is impossible, you cannot take the move, 0" or otherwise.

That's literally what the FAQ says, using exactly the base contact example.



The model cannot move (not even 0"), thus it cannot complete a move (not even a 0" move).

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Right, but whether you move or not you've still done the Consolidate step. The move is optional when resolving it.

Sure. But if you opt not to do it (or cannot do it, because you cannot end up closer to an enemy model), Syll'Esske doesn't get his/her second swing, because he/she needs to complete a consolidation move, not just the consolidate step.

Except that moving 0 inches in a consolidation move is completing a consolidation move, and as such Deadly Symbiosis will activate.

No. It's not. If you want to even begin a consolidation move, you need to check you can end up closer to the enemy model. If that is impossible, you cannot take the move, 0" or otherwise.

That's literally what the FAQ says, using exactly the base contact example.

No, you can't just skip the "Cosolidate" step of the "Fight Phase".

BRB FAQ wrote:No phases in a turn may be skipped, and all parts of each phase must be played out.

So you need to carry out this step. You can't move, because you're in base contact.
Consolidate move is finished, Consolidate step is finished.
Deadly Symbiosis kicks in.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

So you need to carry out this step. You can't move, because you're in base contact.
Consolidate move is finished, Consolidate step is finished.
Deadly Symbiosis kicks in.

You're not skipping the step. You're just skipping the consolidation move action within the step. Just like you can carry out the shooting phase, while skipping the shooting attacks of a model.

If a model cannot shoot in the shooting phase (for example becasue it fell back from combat), it cannot use abilities that trigger off its shooting (e.g. the Fire and Fade stratagem).

If you explicitly cannot make a move, you cannot end that move either. You simply don't have a move (which has nothing to do with skipping the step).

If Syll'Esske's rules were "after consolidating" or "after the consolidation step", you'd be right. But that's not what the rules are.

You can't just skip steps of the "Fight Phase".

You have to consolidate, even if you do not or can not move.

You are not "skipping the consolidation move action within the step" because nothing says you can skip it. therefore you can not skip it.

if you think you can skip it please cite some rules allowing it.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
If a model cannot shoot in the shooting phase (for example becasue it fell back from combat), it cannot use abilities that trigger off its shooting (e.g. the Fire and Fade stratagem).

Incorrect, you can pop smoke for example even though you can not shoot...

You can't just skip steps of the "Fight Phase".

You have to consolidate, even if you do not or can not move..

Correct. You cannot skip the steps of the fight phase. Nobody's arguing that.

And correct. you have to consolidate, even if you do not or cannot move... . Nobody's arguing that either.



The condition for Syll'Esske's Deadly Symbiosis isn't whether she consolidates or not.

The condition of Syll'Esske's Deadly Symbiosis is whether or not she was able to successfully make a move during the consolidation step, and there're conditions where that is not the case.

Again, the citation, since you asked (thought I posted it like three times already).



Again. If Syll'Esske is in base-to-base contact, as per the FAQ she CANNOT make a move (not even a 0" move). Thus no second swing. She consolidates (as all models do, because you cannot skip it) without fullfilling the condition of Deadly Symbiosis.

You still finish the consolidation move even if you don't or can't move.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You still finish the consolidation move even if you don't or can't move.

No, you don't. We have a FAQ answer to back us up. Do you have something similar ?