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 DV8 wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

EDIT - FWIW, I'm perfectly willing to accept that the paint you use does make a difference if you're painting at a winterdyne/DV8 level. I have no experience and so if they say so, I'll accept that. However, that does not change the simple fact that at the level the other 99.98% of us paint at, it makes not a bit of difference what paint you use.

Oh sod off it. Stop putting us on a pedestal; no great artist ever started great. We all started from somewhere, painting like garbage, and we put in the time and effort to hone our skills to something resembling artistry.

THIS!

At the end of the day, cost of paint (and I say this as someone that uses a LOT of paint) is largely irrelevant - it's down to 'does it do what you want it to do?'. And much of that 'skill' is down to understanding how a paint, brush or technique works. It's just experience, not sorcery. Paints with fine grain and good binding agents will blend more smoothly, more easily than a rough canvas-intended acrylic. Conversely, that will often drybrush less easily as even small amounts smear easily (giving you streaks) compared to a rougher, more powdery mix (which might come out a bit speckly, but probably not so much you notice).

Honestly anyone who's used humbrol acrylics in the early 90's will tell you how gakky they were, especially the oh-so-chalky crimsons...

Case in point - yes, I could mix up something on the fly that behaves very much like the new contrast paints for cheaper. Am I going to? No. I'm going to buy the sodding lot, because it'll be much easier to use the stuff straight from the pot and I'd rather just *paint* than spend ten minutes to half an hour pissing about with a mix to get it to behave.

Will I be exaggerating the effect by working over various zenithal airbrush undercoats? Yep, that too.

Will I touch up to sharpen and neaten things after? Yep, probably.

Do I use household emulsion paint or cheap brown rattlecans to paint terrain and other stuff? Yep.

Horses for courses. Learn both.

winterdyne wrote:
I'm going to buy the sodding lot, because it'll be much easier to use the stuff straight from the pot and I'd rather just *paint* than spend ten minutes to half an hour pissing about with a mix to get it to behave.

This deserves emphasis. Time is money and buying something that just works straight out of the pot, without wasting time with mixing/thinning/etc, is a worthy investment.

 Peregrine wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
I'm going to buy the sodding lot, because it'll be much easier to use the stuff straight from the pot and I'd rather just *paint* than spend ten minutes to half an hour pissing about with a mix to get it to behave.

This deserves emphasis. Time is money and buying something that just works straight out of the pot, without wasting time with mixing/thinning/etc, is a worthy investment.

Absolutely!

Repeatability is also key; making a custom mix every time means even the smallest variation in the mix produces a completely different result.

Painting from the pot ensures that, barring batch error/production issues, we get the same consistent result every time.

DV8 wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

EDIT - FWIW, I'm perfectly willing to accept that the paint you use does make a difference if you're painting at a winterdyne/DV8 level. I have no experience and so if they say so, I'll accept that. However, that does not change the simple fact that at the level the other 99.98% of us paint at, it makes not a bit of difference what paint you use.

Oh sod off it. Stop putting us on a pedestal; no great artist ever started great. We all started from somewhere, painting like garbage, and we put in the time and effort to hone our skills to something resembling artistry.

It's not like we paint like garbage until we hit a certain milestone, and then we have some arbitrary checklist that allows us to unlock certain types of paints. "Can we blend? Yup. Can we glaze and feather? Sure can! What about freehand? Got some of that? Great! Can't do NMM though? Oooh sorry, looks like we can't allow you to use Vallejo Model Colors yet. Maybe you'll just have to settle for these P3 paints instead."

We (the collective we, speaking for this arbitrary 0.01%) use great quality paints because they allow us to produce great quality work. They're tools, just like using a good brush gives you better control and paint application.

Good paint (and brushes) don't make you a good painter, but they enable you to, because they're well suited to the techniques required to produce good work.

The reverse is true; using poor quality tools holds you back, because they are ill-suited to (or completely inappropriate) for the techniques required to produce anything other than mediocrity.

But as you say, YMMV.

Your location relative to the pedestal is, like the rest of your post, a non sequitur.

My comment was intended only to clarify that my previous comments are not to be applied to high-level work because I simply have no experience in that, while you (and winterdyne) do. Dollar-store acrylics may be just as good for the work you do, or they may not. I simply do not know and arguing either way with zero experience would be ludicrous. Arguing against someone with actual experience, while possessing none of my own, would be symptomatic of everything wrong with our society.

"I don't know enough to have an opinion on that" are the most vastly under-rated words in the English language. That is all I meant.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Your location relative to the pedestal is, like the rest of your post, a non sequitur.

You've essentially stated that cheap paint works just as well for those of us who aren't experts, as if one must be an expert to see any difference from quality paint. DV8's point was that it is not necessary to be an expert to benefit from quality paint, and using cheap paint may actively hinder becoming an expert in the first place.

An amateur may not be able to take full advantage of good tools, but an amateur is going to have a harder time climbing out of amateur status with bad tools. This maxim applies to a lot of things, not just paint.

Which is, in reality, another non sequitur.

What I actually did was offer a disclaimer explaining that my comments aren't to be taken as speaking to the kind of painting DV8 and winterdyne do because I have no experience in that kind of painting and I'm unwilling to presuppose a position. Like other acrylic paints being necessarily inferior, for example. Which you're doing and which DV8 is doing. They may be inferior for DV8's purposes. I do not know because I have no experience and so insisting that he's wrong and I'm right and you can win Golden Daemon with Dollarama paint and brushes would be silly. This is literally - literally - all I meant.

I remain of the opinion that dollar-store/craft acrylics work perfectly well for the vast majority of us who paint to the three-foot rule and that for us, fancy, expensive paints are nothing more than The Emperor's New Clothes.

You can use whatever paint you prefer. That's fine, and I at least am not arguing against that.

But, answering the OP's original question to settle an argument, no, all paints are not created by a single manufacturer, and yes, there are differences in brands. It does not matter which brands you prefer, but it is objectively true that they are different. The "I don't notice any difference, so they must be the same or it doesn't matter which you use" argument is just being willfully obstinate.

Will you get better results by using better quality materials (brushes, paints, etc.)? Maybe, maybe not. Will low quality materials hold you back? Again, maybe, maybe not. A lot of it will depend on your skill and the practice you put into it. But yes, speaking from personal experience, switching to higher quality materials can make improvement in your skills much faster and easier. And from there, even switching between high quality materials with different properties will lead you to finding your own style and preferred techniques and tools.

If you don't want to really push for "competition level" painting, that's fine too. If you do want to try to improve your painting, though, you are going to do more harm to your skills than good by refusing to try different materials.

Excommunicatus wrote:Your location relative to the pedestal is, like the rest of your post, a non sequitur.

My comment was intended only to clarify that my previous comments are not to be applied to high-level work because I simply have no experience in that, while you (and winterdyne) do. Dollar-store acrylics may be just as good for the work you do, or they may not. I simply do not know and arguing either way with zero experience would be ludicrous. Arguing against someone with actual experience, while possessing none of my own, would be symptomatic of everything wrong with our society.

"I don't know enough to have an opinion on that" are the most vastly under-rated words in the English language. That is all I meant.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
EDIT - FWIW, I'm perfectly willing to accept that the paint you use does make a difference if you're painting at a winterdyne/DV8 level. I have no experience and so if they say so, I'll accept that. However, that does not change the simple fact that at the level the other 99.98% of us paint at, it makes not a bit of difference what paint you use.

Emphasis mine.

You don't know enough about how everybody else paints, their skillset and experience, to make the grand sweeping statement that the majority of people can't tell the difference between high quality vs low quality paints.

All you can really say is that you can't tell the difference. But you don't represent the majority, so it's disingenuous for you to represent yourself as synonymous with said majority.

catbarf wrote:An amateur may not be able to take full advantage of good tools, but an amateur is going to have a harder time climbing out of amateur status with bad tools. This maxim applies to a lot of things, not just paint.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Paint quality matters, but in general many are good enough to just paint. I think its worth understanding what the differences in quality give you.

Principally a paint is composed of 3 constituent substances; a binder, a suspension medium, and a pigment. Any of the 3 can vary in quality and impact the quality of the paint. To us the most important aspect of paints intended for the miniature hobby is how finely ground are the pigment in the paint. Pigment size constrains the size of the smallest line or dot of color you can apply. The suspension media is the next most important where viscosity and surface tension of the liquid paint. Too little and the paint is inconsistent, too much and you can end up with something more like a caulk or glue, or something that takes too long to dry, this can also contribute to detail loss, though not as much as larger ground pigment. Finally the binding agent, your paint on a microscopic level has to seep in and solidify into the microscopic crevices and texture of the surface you paint them on to (or in the case of more volatile paints chemically react to form a bond); good vs bad is about the rigidity of this adhesion.

You could have the best pigment in the world but a poor suspension medium means it can't keep the pigment mixed and might tend to pool when you apply it to a surface. A poor binding agent in the paint effects the longevity of your paint job and might lead to ease of chipping or moisture penetration. A poor pigment you will either get clumpy or chalky paint finishes that over time deteriorate and lose color vibrancy.

All three vary in quality and proportions and have an impact on the final outcome. Even within a single paint manufacturer they vary their proportions and quality of what makes up their paint. For example Vallejo has the Model-air line of paints and the Game-air line of paints and while both will apply to your miniature without a problem the Game-air uses a different binder that is more rugged since Vallejo anticipates gamers will handle their miniatures more than a traditional model builder will handle the WWII fighter plane model that is typically left sitting on a shelf. The Model-air paints instead have an emphasis on quality of color accuracy and color retention. Most of gamer types varnish or finish our models anyways so most paints are going to stay as they are after that.

As I said many paints are good enough and most of the time the average hobbyist doesn't need to get into these details... but understanding quality will allow you to adapt or find a better paint for what you want to achieve if you do see the signs of poor or inadequate quality.

I'm reminded ofna youtube channel where some guy showed using craft acrylic paints, and the good results he could get with them... But it also illustrated the extra work and occasional problems encountered getting their.

A good craftsman doesn't blame his tools, but he also knows that using sunstandard tools is going to take that much more work to make up.for.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
EDIT

and are a company like Tamiya really going to make 100,000 pots of paint in Japan, and ship it to Europe or North America?

Or does common sense say it would be cheaper and quicker to get a factory in Europe or America to make it there, and save on shipping costs?

I was just at a local hobby shop today, and yes. . . Tamiya does make their paint in Japan and ship globally. I "know" this because the shop owner was "complaining" about some of his distributor issues in regards to a change in california law, where Tamiya is imported to the US through, and how now all paints are supposed to have a "warning label" on them.


Now, on the question of whether there is one big company making paint for all?? No, however without looking at all the details I do suspect there are fewer than we think, but that there is more than one.

Sure, you may be able to get similar results with a "same" color across multiple brands, but I am entirely confident in saying that paint bought in a Tamiya glass jar is far different from a paint that is bought in a Citadel plastic pot.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
EDIT

and are a company like Tamiya really going to make 100,000 pots of paint in Japan, and ship it to Europe or North America?

Or does common sense say it would be cheaper and quicker to get a factory in Europe or America to make it there, and save on shipping costs?

I was just at a local hobby shop today, and yes. . . Tamiya does make their paint in Japan and ship globally. I "know" this because the shop owner was "complaining" about some of his distributor issues in regards to a change in california law, where Tamiya is imported to the US through, and how now all paints are supposed to have a "warning label" on them.


Now, on the question of whether there is one big company making paint for all?? No, however without looking at all the details I do suspect there are fewer than we think, but that there is more than one.

Sure, you may be able to get similar results with a "same" color across multiple brands, but I am entirely confident in saying that paint bought in a Tamiya glass jar is far different from a paint that is bought in a Citadel plastic pot.

There seems to be a shortage of Tamiya glue as well, so it's not just a paint thing.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


There seems to be a shortage of Tamiya glue as well, so it's not just a paint thing.

Should only be a temporary setback. . . I guess the thing was that a shipment came in, got inspected and even though it was printed/made/shipped before regulation changes, they wouldn't allow it, so it had to be shipped back to Japan.

That's like saying a ford escort and a Lamborghini are the same as they're both cars. Paints can vary greatly, from opacity, colour vibrancy, finish, and so on. Model paints tend to have more finely ground pigments in them which increases the cost. You may find some decent acrylic paints on offer but in general the cost reflects the quality

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Valander wrote:
Actually, there is a big Vallejo (well, "big" may be subjective) factory in Spain. That company actually started out doing artist acrylics, and eventually cell-paints (used for animation cells), and moved into model paints, too. Vallejo produces paint for several other small companies that re-brand it.

GW used to use Foundry (same as Privater Press did), but not sure if they still do. GW was in talks at one point with Vallejo to produce paints for them, but backed out of that deal for unknown reasons, which is what spawned the Vallejo Game Color line.

I stand corrected, thank you.

It's not Foundry. It's HMG, who still make their own line of paints "Coat D'Arms" in the old round citadel-style posts with many of the original (and second, maybe third) lines of colours. They also did P3 (different formulation) and to my understanding did the Foundry paints amd possibly even the now-discontinued and relaunched-by-the-current-citadel-supplier Forge World paints (again, same pots).

As for craft paints vs miniature paint. I've got a few tubes and bottle of the cheap stuff from the local hardware barn. It's objectively gak compared to (just about any brand of) miniature paint. Only good for terrain. I'm sure there's better cheap craft paint out the as well, but the sweeping generalisations aren't accurate or useful, nor is claiming that it all looks the same from a few feet away.

What ever does the job is fine for me, regardless of brand.


And there's a major difference between the cheap acrylic paint vs GW paint ( at least where i live near Jupiter this is the case ).I Can tell as soon as I connect the brush to the paint. Worse experience ever trying to paint plastic with that cheap stuff, or paint over any thing for that matter, but it can be done ( mostly for terrain ), but is annoying as hell to use compared to the GW paint which is heavenly in comparison. But, i guess for some people it may be hard to tell the difference between Similar type of paint brands, like GW vs Army Painter or some thing.