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Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

In the past I've posted before that I take budget wargaming to a new level: sand from the beach, budget PVA glue, and 50p acrylic paints from British budget shops.

A friend of mine who's also into wargaming, is the complete opposite. For years I've tried to tell him that PVA glue is PVA glue. It doesn't matter if it has a GW label on it, or was bought for £1 from a bargain art shop. It's all the same My arguments fall on deaf ears.

And it's the same with paint. If a paint guide says use GW colour X or Army Painter colour X, he won't shift, and will only use that, citing product 'differences' and superiority to cheaper brands.

Again, my argument is that paint is paint. I know from experience that UK DIY stores had their budget paint made for them by ICI at one time. And UK supermarkets had their biscuits made for them by top biscuit companies. Obviously, the labels were different, but it was still the same factory.

And I'm convinced the same is true of wargaming paint. I've looked at all the different brands I own: old GW, new GW, Vallejo, Revell, Humbrol etc etc and there seems to be negligible differences between them, apart from labelling. Is there one big European or global factory churning this stuff out for everybody, for economies of scale?

Thanks.




"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
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Texas

Paints companies are different. Vallejo is Spanish, Citadel is UK, Tamiya is Japan... etc...

Buy different brands and do color swatches. There ARE different. Different hues, tones, and pigment density, coverage, viscosity, etc...


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Rzhev

I'm generally of the same opinion.

A 12ml pot of Emperor's Children Layer paint from GW is $5.40 (CAD). 59ml of a paint the same colour and consistency from Michael's Art Store is $1.19.

There's a lot of 'The Emperor's New Clothes' going on with hobby supplies, IMO.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I'm generally of the same opinion.

A 12ml pot of Emperor's Children Layer paint from GW is $5.40 (CAD). 59ml of a paint the same colour and consistency from Michael's Art Store is $1.19.

There's a lot of 'The Emperor's New Clothes' going on with hobby supplies, IMO.


Agreed. Years ago, it dawned on me that you were paying extra money for a fancy bottle, or a brand name, but the end result was the same.

Here in the UK, dulux diamond is proper trade house paint, and worth the cash, but every other budget range is just that: budget. Makes no difference what the brand says.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dynas wrote:
Paints companies are different. Vallejo is Spanish, Citadel is UK, Tamiya is Japan... etc...

Buy different brands and do color swatches. There ARE different. Different hues, tones, and pigment density, coverage, viscosity, etc...



I made a comparison of Vallejo extra opaque and compared it to a Citadel base paint of the same colour, and there was nothing in it for me. I'd always buy the Vallejo, and only because you were getting more for less. But quality difference between them? Not for me.

IMO, it's unlikely that even a company like GW would set up a dedicated factory to paint production. Far cheaper and easier to pay somebody else to make it for you, with GW only having to get their own paint pots from somewhere. That makes economic sense IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/10 13:30:48


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

The different companies are different. The physical properties (thickness, coverage, runniness) and color properties (precise hue, opacity, finish) are going to vary, sometimes quite a bit.

Does that mean it's always worth the price difference? That's a different story. For shade paints, I generally buy the bargain-bin 2-for-a-dollar tubes and call it a day. Name brand might be better, but it ain't 14x better.

Where I will pay for name brand is washes and base coats. I've just never found anything (including homemade options) better than GW's offerings in that regard.

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Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

EDIT

and are a company like Tamiya really going to make 100,000 pots of paint in Japan, and ship it to Europe or North America?

Or does common sense say it would be cheaper and quicker to get a factory in Europe or America to make it there, and save on shipping costs?

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Agile Revenant Titan





London, UK

I agree when it comes with things like sand, texture paint, pva glue and hobby equipment that there isn't much of a difference other than the brand or price tag but I can't agree with you when it comes to paint.

There are considerable differences between paint you buy from a pound shop and paint you buy specifically for wargaming, which Dynas summed up nicely in the first reply to this thread.

Sure, use craft paint for terrain etc, but when it comes to finer detailed miniatures, use miniature paint.

Primers are a different story because there are some really bad ones and some really good ones but none are worth what GW charge for theirs which isn't even proper primer. Auto primers are middle of the road in price and my go to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/10 14:22:43


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Longtime Dakkanaut




I believe there was one main factory in (I think) Manchester that did a lot of acrylic paint, including paint for multiple hobby ranges, but that was a while ago. It's not the case that all paint is the same, though. Paint is basically pigment suspended in a some sort of medium and the type and amount of pigment used along with the type and amount of medium it's mixed in affects the cost and quality of the paint.

So while acrylic paints are all basically the same, you'll likely find a 50p pot of paint form the craft store isn't as well suited to painting models as a more expensive, specialist product. Paint for miniature gaming needs to be thinner than general purpose paint while still containing a decent amount of pigment. So if you get a crappy 50p pot of paint it's likely to be too thick for painting models. Probably great for terrain though.

Regardless of all this, GW paint is still too expensive.
   
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Rzhev

So, I have a pot of Druchii VIolet, a pot of Ceramite White, two Army Painter metallics and Army Painter Corpse Pale.

Every other paint I use is from a dollar-store or Michael's.Aside from the pot/bottle, I do not see or feel any difference at all.

I also have a nine-page plog full of minis painted with these paints and nobody has mentioned that they look odd, off or funny, beyond that which can be accounted for by lack of talent.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Good lord, we have the Dollar Store Paint game going again.

Paint is not paint. Not all paints are the same. The formulas for the components of the paint vary.

There ARE primary manufacturers behind the labels. The paints are never made in house.

That being said the formula, pigment, coverage, and durability are going to vary heavily.

Citadel is notorious for this. None of their paints are in house and they farmed them out. Can't recall the name of the actual manufacturer.

P3 Paints are not an in house paint.

Vallejo IS a primary paint manufacturer. At one time they were competing for the contract to produce GW paints.

I don't know about Tamija, likely use a Chinese Factory.

There are only a few primary manufacturers of paints in the world.

Craftstore/Dollar Store paints all come from one or two factories in China. Their formulas vary little.

Craftstore paint is NOT fine art paint and is NOT the same as miniature paint.

Fine art paints have much more body and less pigment. Miniature paints have much less body and a lot more pigment as well as more binders.

While the general quality of craft paint has improved since the 90s, you can still rub it right off a mini. They are designed primarily to be used on rough surfaces or absorbent surfaces. They are designed to be applied thick and in multiple coats. Detail and coverage are non-issues.

Toxicity is another risk with Chinesium paint.

Can you paint with it, sure. Its utter crap though. When mixing craft paint you often end up with brown. This has to do with pigments and how they work. Not all pigments are the same, not all can mix. Most achieve their color in non-toxic form through modern chemistry, when you mix two of them together that are not compatible you get mud brown as the pigment chemistry changes and reacts.


Are the GW paints over prices? Yes. And they have a myriad of other problems like reefing, pigment fall out (it bonds to their pots, likely because their pots generate static charge and likely attract the pigment particles.. scrape you GW paint pot with a microspatula and then mix it in another pot and you will be surprised at how different it is.)

But your dollar store paint is not the same or even equivalent.

But yes, an artist can take just about any paint and any quality of brush and make it work after a fashion. But it is substandard, not effcient, and a waste of time.

This is the era of the internet. Order your paints. There are tons of other options out there.

Vallejo, Instar, Armypainter(ugh), Scale Color, and on and on and on.
I've been moving away from GW for a long time. They've changed manufacturers and formula for a few things and their paints are WORSE. MUCH WORSE.

Primarily I use P3, but still need to sample Instars. But I've got a mix of Vallejo's various lines, Reaper, Scale Color, AK interactive products (which are awesome), and some older Citadel Pots which make me shake my head whenever I use them.

Calestra Grey has gotten more grainy in recent production. The pigment grind is substandard, almost feels like craft paint just goes on better and has more pigment.

Frankly there are also TOO many colors in the GW line. You don't need that many. In fact it actually prevents learning how to do some of the more advanced painting techniques. Custom mixing and making glazes for shadowing or highlighting is almost always a very custom thing. Taking a full GW paint in the general correct hue and trying to glaze with it doesn't actually work well.

It's why all the 'Eavy Metal Painters glaze with custom mixes, despite the overabundance of GW paint hues.

Where you can really see the diff between an actual miniature paint and craft paint is when you make it into a glaze. Also when you airbrush the larger pigment grain size causes clogging in all but the largest of nozzles.

Yes, I also have craft store paints on hand. It is what I use to paint large terrain pieces. Sand is dollar store sand. Slate is something I knocked off some larger slate and broke into size. I have old brick chunks ground to a small size for small rocks. I have kitty litter for texturing.

Consummate 8th Edition Hater.  
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I agree when it comes with things like sand, texture paint, pva glue and hobby equipment that there isn't much of a difference other than the brand or price tag but I can't agree with you when it comes to paint.

There are considerable differences between paint you buy from a pound shop and paint you buy specifically for wargaming, which Dynas summed up nicely in the first reply to this thread.

Sure, use craft paint for terrain etc, but when it comes to finer detailed miniatures, use miniature paint.

Primers are a different story because there are some really bad ones and some really good ones but none are worth what GW charge for theirs which isn't even proper primer. Auto primers are middle of the road in price and my go to.


Yeah, I started using auto primers myself a few years ago. The results were surprisingly good.

I would also same the same about varnish. For me, varnish is varnish. Yeah, it might have been intended for wooden floors, but careful application to minis has given me decent results. And the stuff is as cheap as chips.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, I have a pot of Druchii VIolet, a pot of Ceramite White, two Army Painter metallics and Army Painter Corpse Pale.

Every other paint I use is from a dollar-store or Michael's.Aside from the pot/bottle, I do not see or feel any difference at all.

I also have a nine-page plog full of minis painted with these paints and nobody has mentioned that they look odd, off or funny, beyond that which can be accounted for by lack of talent.


I've always said that a great painter with gak paints will always outdo a gak painter with great paints.

Paints are only ever half the battle for me.

I mean look at Da Vinci and Van Gough. Not exactly top dollar premium paints there, but the results obviously speak for themselves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/10 15:10:59


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, I have a pot of Druchii VIolet, a pot of Ceramite White, two Army Painter metallics and Army Painter Corpse Pale.

Every other paint I use is from a dollar-store or Michael's.Aside from the pot/bottle, I do not see or feel any difference at all.

I also have a nine-page plog full of minis painted with these paints and nobody has mentioned that they look odd, off or funny, beyond that which can be accounted for by lack of talent.


Challenge Accepted.

So far I was only able to find your Keeper of Secrets in a size I can really look at closely. Mind you closely is kind of a rabbit hole since models were designed for PLAYING at about 3ft and what looks good at 3ft does not at 3 inches. Like with automotive paintjobs. So I am looking at a model that may have been painted for Table Top Level but with an critique eye for an "art piece"

My only critique is that, yes. It looks like it was painted with craft paint. Why?

ThreeThings stand out:

-Chalky Colors/highlights

-Lack of smooth transitions.

-flat surfaces show texture (which is common in craft paints).

But, that being said, the model has good color choice, consistent theme, and is a solid table top quality model. But it isnt art piece or 'Eavy metal. There is nothing wrong with that. I cut corners and use simple jobs often just to get pieces on the table.

But here is an example of 1h per model with hobby paints. Note the transitions are more smooth as is the paint itself. Mind you there are some up-tier craft paint that reminds me a lot of the 80s era GW paints



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Actually van Gogh used oil paints made with natural pigments and da Vinci also used oil paints made from hand ground pigments. Chances are they would be extremely high quality to use.
   
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 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Actually van Gogh used oil paints made with natural pigments and da Vinci also used oil paints made from hand ground pigments. Chances are they would be extremely high quality to use.


And, as it turns out, highly toxic. Those old toxic pigments are amazing. Extremely high quality compared to the voodoo we use.

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Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Rzhev

Well sure, you know its craft paint now so it's easy to say as much.

The 'chalky' results, ironically enough, from my habit of drybrushing EVERYTHING with Ceramite White, which is the only non-metallic, non-dollar-store paint on Her.

So...

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
Made in at
Privateer




Austria

Acrylic Paint is Acrylic Paint

And there are different qualities available for different needs

Size and amount of pigments, resistance against UV light, shiny/glossy after drying and so on.

Going with the cheap kids paint from the store is fine.
You won't get high UV resistance, or small sized pigments, but a beginner won't see the difference nor would you by painting terrain


Now there are different companies who make different paints, but not as many as one might think and GW is not among them (they just buy and do not produce it).

Buying GW, Vallejo or high quality from the artist shop makes a difference but not one that people will notice but in price.
Expensive high quality paint for artist is still cheaper than GW while being higher quality.

Advantage of GW paints is that it matches the GW painting guides and the GW colour schemes, and it will be difficult to get Space Wolves Grey somewhere else.

But than, GW promo Miniatures are not always painted with GW paints either.

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Painting Within the Lines




Seattle, WA USA

Simplest answer to the OP's question of "is one company making paint for everybody?" is "no."

There are several manufacturers. Now, yes, several game companies do use the same manufacturer (Foundry is used by a lot of companies, for example), but even there the exact forumulas for the paints differ a little bit. But there are also several companies that make their own and market it themselves (Vallejo, Scale 75, Warcolours, Tamiya, to name a few).

As for "acrylic paint is acrylic paint," this is blatantly untrue. There are most definitely differences in the binder formulas; pigment, for everything from composition to particulate size to concentration; and various other additives and properties.

If you can't notice a difference between Apple Barrel and Scale 75, that's most likely because you're not doing anything beyond taking the paint straight out of the container and applying it directly to the model. When you start going into thinning, glazing, wet blending, etc., the differences are marked.
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 kodos wrote:
Acrylic Paint is Acrylic Paint

And there are different qualities available for different needs

Size and amount of pigments, resistance against UV light, shiny/glossy after drying and so on.

Going with the cheap kids paint from the store is fine.
You won't get high UV resistance, or small sized pigments, but a beginner won't see the difference nor would you by painting terrain


Now there are different companies who make different paints, but not as many as one might think and GW is not among them (they just buy and do not produce it).

Buying GW, Vallejo or high quality from the artist shop makes a difference but not one that people will notice but in price.
Expensive high quality paint for artist is still cheaper than GW while being higher quality.

Advantage of GW paints is that it matches the GW painting guides and the GW colour schemes, and it will be difficult to get Space Wolves Grey somewhere else.

But than, GW promo Miniatures are not always painted with GW paints either.


Apologies if this is a daft question, but why would high UV resistant paint make a difference to an average gamer like me?

To the best of my knowledge, I've never had my minis outside, they're stored in boxes for months on end, and only come out for games at home or some draughty church hall.

Do I really need UV resistant paint?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Valander wrote:
Simplest answer to the OP's question of "is one company making paint for everybody?" is "no."

There are several manufacturers. Now, yes, several game companies do use the same manufacturer (Foundry is used by a lot of companies, for example), but even there the exact forumulas for the paints differ a little bit. But there are also several companies that make their own and market it themselves (Vallejo, Scale 75, Warcolours, Tamiya, to name a few).

As for "acrylic paint is acrylic paint," this is blatantly untrue. There are most definitely differences in the binder formulas; pigment, for everything from composition to particulate size to concentration; and various other additives and properties.

If you can't notice a difference between Apple Barrel and Scale 75, that's most likely because you're not doing anything beyond taking the paint straight out of the container and applying it directly to the model. When you start going into thinning, glazing, wet blending, etc., the differences are marked.


Like most people on dakka, I'm just an average gamer. Obviously, I don't know what games everybody is playing, but I'm mostly 1/72 or 1/100 scale. I'm an average painter, and these minis look great from 4 feet away, but if I'm being honest, I don't think the paint, any paint, makes that much of a difference at such a small scale.

Fair enough, if people were doing 1/35 or even 1/56 for Golden Demon, then quality counts. But average gamers with small scale wargaming? Paint is paint for me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/10 17:17:22


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
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Keeper of the Adeptus Arbites Flame






Cairo, Egypt

To answer the OP, I don't know.

But I would guess that there are a handful of manufacturers who make paint on an industrial scale, but to different formulas for their customers.

We know the GW buys their paint from outside, and I strongly doubt there's a big Valajo factory somewhere in Spain.

So GW paint is different from Valajo from poster paints from the Five and Dime shop, even if they were all made in the same factory at some point.

 
   
Made in us
Painting Within the Lines




Seattle, WA USA

"Paint is paint for me" is kind of disingenuous. You asked if all paint was made by the same manufacturer. The answer is "no." You asked if there is actually differences, and the answer there is "yes."

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be a paint elitist or whatever. And yeah, if you're happy with the results you get with whatever you use, that's great for you. But to insist that there is no difference because you don't notice any is willfully obtuse. And scale of models has nothing to do with paint quality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
To answer the OP, I don't know.

But I would guess that there are a handful of manufacturers who make paint on an industrial scale, but to different formulas for their customers.

We know the GW buys their paint from outside, and I strongly doubt there's a big Valajo factory somewhere in Spain.

So GW paint is different from Valajo from poster paints from the Five and Dime shop, even if they were all made in the same factory at some point.
Actually, there is a big Vallejo (well, "big" may be subjective) factory in Spain. That company actually started out doing artist acrylics, and eventually cell-paints (used for animation cells), and moved into model paints, too. Vallejo produces paint for several other small companies that re-brand it.

GW used to use Foundry (same as Privater Press did), but not sure if they still do. GW was in talks at one point with Vallejo to produce paints for them, but backed out of that deal for unknown reasons, which is what spawned the Vallejo Game Color line.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/10 17:24:54


 
   
Made in ca
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t.dot

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Like most people on dakka, I'm just an average gamer. Obviously, I don't know what games everybody is playing, but I'm mostly 1/72 or 1/100 scale. I'm an average painter, and these minis look great from 4 feet away, but if I'm being honest, I don't think the paint, any paint, makes that much of a difference at such a small scale.

Fair enough, if people were doing 1/35 or even 1/56 for Golden Demon, then quality counts. But average gamers with small scale wargaming? Paint is paint for me.


You can't make sweeping and grandiose statements like "paint is paint" and call out every brand of paint as being functionally identical, but then dilineate that it's that way because you're an average painter.

Paint brands are not identical or equal, regardless of your individual perception of identical-ness or equal-ness.


You can make the same argument for things like brushes as well. I mean functionally, dollar store brushes put paint on models just like W&N 7 Series do, why pay $40 per brush when you can spend $1? As you increase in skill/experience, you find that certain products are functionally better.

Can you achieve similar results with cheaper/inferior products? Maybe (not always), but then think of the additional cost in time and effort. And it's not even necessarily about throwing money at the problem. Owning a 7 Series doesn't make you automatically a better painter. But it's certainly a tool that can help.

 Valander wrote:
"Paint is paint for me" is kind of disingenuous. You asked if all paint was made by the same manufacturer. The answer is "no." You asked if there is actually differences, and the answer there is "yes."

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be a paint elitist or whatever. And yeah, if you're happy with the results you get with whatever you use, that's great for you. But to insist that there is no difference because you don't notice any is willfully obtuse. And scale of models has nothing to do with paint quality.


Well put.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/10 17:31:04


   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Valander wrote:
"Paint is paint for me" is kind of disingenuous. You asked if all paint was made by the same manufacturer. The answer is "no." You asked if there is actually differences, and the answer there is "yes."

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be a paint elitist or whatever. And yeah, if you're happy with the results you get with whatever you use, that's great for you. But to insist that there is no difference because you don't notice any is willfully obtuse. And scale of models has nothing to do with paint quality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
To answer the OP, I don't know.

But I would guess that there are a handful of manufacturers who make paint on an industrial scale, but to different formulas for their customers.

We know the GW buys their paint from outside, and I strongly doubt there's a big Valajo factory somewhere in Spain.

So GW paint is different from Valajo from poster paints from the Five and Dime shop, even if they were all made in the same factory at some point.
Actually, there is a big Vallejo (well, "big" may be subjective) factory in Spain. That company actually started out doing artist acrylics, and eventually cell-paints (used for animation cells), and moved into model paints, too. Vallejo produces paint for several other small companies that re-brand it.

GW used to use Foundry (same as Privater Press did), but not sure if they still do. GW was in talks at one point with Vallejo to produce paints for them, but backed out of that deal for unknown reasons, which is what spawned the Vallejo Game Color line.


That's a fair point, and perhaps a new thread on differences between the various paints is what is needed.

That being said, and yes, this is anecdotal, I did a small experiment the other week:

5 skeletons, and each skeleton was base coated white with one of 5 different paint brands I have, and the water to paint ratio was almost exactly the same. I used Humbrol, old citadel, Vallejo, Revell, and budget shop paint. I honestly cannot see a difference between the skeletons.

And yeah, scale of models doesn't have anything to do with quality, but the visual look of 1/100 models from 4 feet away is the same IMO and my eyesight regardless of it being done by a master painter or a rookie's first paint job.

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 Valander wrote:
Actually, there is a big Vallejo (well, "big" may be subjective) factory in Spain. That company actually started out doing artist acrylics, and eventually cell-paints (used for animation cells), and moved into model paints, too. Vallejo produces paint for several other small companies that re-brand it.

GW used to use Foundry (same as Privater Press did), but not sure if they still do. GW was in talks at one point with Vallejo to produce paints for them, but backed out of that deal for unknown reasons, which is what spawned the Vallejo Game Color line.


I stand corrected, thank you.

 
   
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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
To answer the OP, I don't know.

But I would guess that there are a handful of manufacturers who make paint on an industrial scale, but to different formulas for their customers.

We know the GW buys their paint from outside, and I strongly doubt there's a big Valajo factory somewhere in Spain.

So GW paint is different from Valajo from poster paints from the Five and Dime shop, even if they were all made in the same factory at some point.


As somebody who loves making terrain, don't knock those five and dime shop paints.

500ml of any colour for £1. I'm in there. Absolutely perfect for basing coating terrain.

Nigel Stillman inspired a generation

Totally unrelated, but I followed his advice on cutting up old doormats to make wheat field terrain. It bloody works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DV8 wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Like most people on dakka, I'm just an average gamer. Obviously, I don't know what games everybody is playing, but I'm mostly 1/72 or 1/100 scale. I'm an average painter, and these minis look great from 4 feet away, but if I'm being honest, I don't think the paint, any paint, makes that much of a difference at such a small scale.

Fair enough, if people were doing 1/35 or even 1/56 for Golden Demon, then quality counts. But average gamers with small scale wargaming? Paint is paint for me.


You can't make sweeping and grandiose statements like "paint is paint" and call out every brand of paint as being functionally identical, but then dilineate that it's that way because you're an average painter.

Paint brands are not identical or equal, regardless of your individual perception of identical-ness or equal-ness.


You can make the same argument for things like brushes as well. I mean functionally, dollar store brushes put paint on models just like W&N 7 Series do, why pay $40 per brush when you can spend $1? As you increase in skill/experience, you find that certain products are functionally better.

Can you achieve similar results with cheaper/inferior products? Maybe (not always), but then think of the additional cost in time and effort. And it's not even necessarily about throwing money at the problem. Owning a 7 Series doesn't make you automatically a better painter. But it's certainly a tool that can help.

 Valander wrote:
"Paint is paint for me" is kind of disingenuous. You asked if all paint was made by the same manufacturer. The answer is "no." You asked if there is actually differences, and the answer there is "yes."

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be a paint elitist or whatever. And yeah, if you're happy with the results you get with whatever you use, that's great for you. But to insist that there is no difference because you don't notice any is willfully obtuse. And scale of models has nothing to do with paint quality.


Well put.



When I say I'm an average painter, perhaps I'm being modest? It's not for me to blow my own trumpet. I don't really know how 'good I am. I've always thought about putting images up in the dakka galley and letting others judge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/10 17:37:28


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A question that might be worth asking is if all these hobby paint companies are perhaps using the same source for their base or not. When Reaper's master series of paint first came out, the base was made by Sherwin Williams (don't know if it still is), and then Reaper added their own pigments and additives to that base.

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 Tannhauser42 wrote:

A question that might be worth asking is if all these hobby paint companies are perhaps using the same source for their base or not. When Reaper's master series of paint first came out, the base was made by Sherwin Williams (don't know if it still is), and then Reaper added their own pigments and additives to that base.


Here's another question. I have a ton of paint comparison charts, some old, some new, and one 'company' that pops up is Federal Standard or US Federal standard, which is a mystery to me.

That's not Congressmen in Washington moonlighting as paint manufactures, is it?

Genuine question, because I have no idea what that 'company' is/was.

Gunze Sangyo is another one. Sounds like a Samurai warlord


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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Apologies if this is a daft question, but why would high UV resistant paint make a difference to an average gamer like me?

To the best of my knowledge, I've never had my minis outside, they're stored in boxes for months on end, and only come out for games at home or some draughty church hall.

Do I really need UV resistant paint?


This really depends on what you are doing
Having your stuff stored in the dark and only take it out once per year in a dark room to play does not make a difference

Having them on the shelf and playing once a month in larger events the colour will change over time and even get destroyed.

But using such a paint does not make a big price difference if bought from artist supply as 100ml will still cost less than GW's 12ml


Some people talk about long term investment for GW models, but this is killed if the all your painted models turn grey/white again because the Black Primer used decomposes after 10 years and kills the colour on them (and it is the Primer as I see the effect also on those that are spray coated only, and yes it was GW Black Primer, a reason why I don't use it any more)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:

A question that might be worth asking is if all these hobby paint companies are perhaps using the same source for their base or not.


As far as I know there are 12 big manufacturer of acrylic paint and more smaller ones. Vallejo is a smaller one as is Foundry or C.Kreul.

So yes some are using the same base but just sell it with different bottles/brands while others are using a different one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/10 18:29:07


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PVA is PVA is PVA.

Sand isn’t. But I’ll just go buy Budgie Sand in The pet shop. One sack will laaaaaaast!

Glue? Revel is good. Citadel is usually good, but I did fall foul of a dodgy batch some years ago, which knackered a lot of models.

Brushes? Definite quality variation. Cheap is not value. Expensive is not value. Citadel’s ones are maybe a bit pricey, but very much up to the job. Other brands are available, but thanks to The Amazing Mr Duncan and his evil sidekick, Peachy, using the right Citadel Brush for right job is easily discerned.

Paints? Well. As with any art medium, just gotta experiment some. Citadel Paints? I think I can comfortably call them a Benchmark. They’re reliable. They’re formulated especially for the job at hand. Vallejo are likewise, but as someone with no Flgs, too much of a sod for me, compared to schlepping off up the hill to visit my local GW and get what I need. Much like their brushes, Citadel Paints are neither good, nor bad. But they have set quite the bar for ‘average’.

Tools? Well, again for convenience sake I’ve got Citadel products. But I’ve used clippers in a couple of actual proper jobs. And those lacked the ‘fine’ point of Citadel’s offerings. So without any claim Citadel’s are therefore the best, it does show all tools are not created equal. To the point they’re not something I’d source online.

YMMV.

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 Excommunicatus wrote:
Well sure, you know its craft paint now so it's easy to say as much.

The 'chalky' results, ironically enough, from my habit of drybrushing EVERYTHING with Ceramite White, which is the only non-metallic, non-dollar-store paint on Her.

So...


Not the white. Was referring to the base colors, not just the highlights.

Drybrushing does not have to look chalky.. though yes. It usually does. Use of a glaze or wash after dry-brushing helps. Or limited area dry-brushing. My tanks to look chalky and I almost always dry-brush them. Though as I said. Total table top quality and I actually agree. For just getting "good looking models" onto the table top there really is not a lot of difference between art paint and miniature paints. The differences start to appear when you are doing more art piece or 'eavy metal oriented paintwork. When you start to glaze, custom mix colors, do NMM, and make custom washes, etc.

I mean hell most people don't know the difference between a Matt Paint and a Flat Paint. Yes. There is a difference.

I don't know about all high end art paints but excepting some of the high end airbrush paints and pure pigment paints (there are some amazing .. erm.. inks? that you can find at the art store that out perform just about everything we can get through vallejo, etc. Dunno about toxicity but through an airbrush their results are undeniable on some the pigment is so intense that they can be used as a base color on their own) most of the tube based artist acrylics have a fraction of the pigment found in miniature paints and when thinned they end up with pigment separation and sundry problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:

A question that might be worth asking is if all these hobby paint companies are perhaps using the same source for their base or not. When Reaper's master series of paint first came out, the base was made by Sherwin Williams (don't know if it still is), and then Reaper added their own pigments and additives to that base.


Didn't know but I've used other Sherwin Williams Paint products and they are pretty good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/10 21:33:47


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meatybtz wrote:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:

A question that might be worth asking is if all these hobby paint companies are perhaps using the same source for their base or not. When Reaper's master series of paint first came out, the base was made by Sherwin Williams (don't know if it still is), and then Reaper added their own pigments and additives to that base.


Didn't know but I've used other Sherwin Williams Paint products and they are pretty good.

Duplicolor, which makes my favorite primer, is a division of Sherwin Williams.

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