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epronovost wrote:
They don't. They are a relic from more ancient time. They still exist, but their impact is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Only if you ignore the fact that they are always saving the imperium on a daily basis. Their impact is far from negligible. Their impact is massive. 1000 man armies that sway the tides of battle in literally every story we ever read about them. You just don't like marine fluff - you think it's outrageous. Serious question - why do you like this fantasy universe if you don't like it's protagonists? If you want a realistic story to read - why not read about real war?

I think Xenomancers hit the nail on the head here; 40k is about rule of cool. Do the marine numbers make sense? No, none whatsoever. But the idea of ten guys holding a breach in the wall against overwhelming odds is awesome, and that's what it's about.

Whether you like that is a matter of taste (I personally would welcome a bit more realism). The answer is to simply headcanon or ignore the bits that you don't like, especially since GW allows a multitude of writers with different styles and levels of quality to write about the setting.

 Xenomancers wrote:

epronovost wrote:
They don't. They are a relic from more ancient time. They still exist, but their impact is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Only if you ignore the fact that they are always saving the imperium on a daily basis. Their impact is far from negligible. Their impact is massive. 1000 man armies that sway the tides of battle in literally every story we ever read about them. You just don't like marine fluff - you think it's outrageous. Serious question - why do you like this fantasy universe if you don't like it's protagonists? If you want a realistic story to read - why not read about real war?

I do read about real wars, it's part of my profession to read about real war. I indeed don't like the protagonist of the story. I don't hate them either. In small doses, I find them interesting. I think GW gives far too much sreen time to Space Marines to the detriment of their lore and univers they built. Obviously, I like this fantasy univers for its antagonists and sidecast.

I also think Haighus made the most reasonnable and credible answer in this thread so far.

 Gael Knight wrote:
The Imperium's grip was loosened during the heresy but ultimately it was restored by the Astartes.

Oh, I didn't know Lord Solar Macharius and Saint Alicia Dominica were Astartes? Cause they, not Astartes, led the two greatest crusades to restore the Imperium since the Horus Heresy.

What Astartes are, are special forces to an extreme. A protracted line battle is the worst place to put them; that they get stuck in them so often is mostly due to GW finding it "epic" and "awesome" more than demonstrating where they are their strongest.

epronovost wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

epronovost wrote:
They don't. They are a relic from more ancient time. They still exist, but their impact is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Only if you ignore the fact that they are always saving the imperium on a daily basis. Their impact is far from negligible. Their impact is massive. 1000 man armies that sway the tides of battle in literally every story we ever read about them. You just don't like marine fluff - you think it's outrageous. Serious question - why do you like this fantasy universe if you don't like it's protagonists? If you want a realistic story to read - why not read about real war?

I do read about real wars, it's part of my profession to read about real war. I indeed don't like the protagonist of the story. I don't hate them either. In small doses, I find them interesting. I think GW gives far too much sreen time to Space Marines to the detriment of their lore and univers they built. Obviously, I like this fantasy univers for its antagonists and sidecast.

I also think Haighus made the most reasonnable and credible answer in this thread so far.

Perfectly fine to like the Antagonists and side casts. Certainly you don't think marines don't matter though...You can't both like 40k lore and believe Marines don't matter - they are incompatible statements.


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 Melissia wrote:

 Gael Knight wrote:
The Imperium's grip was loosened during the heresy but ultimately it was restored by the Astartes.

Oh, I didn't know Lord Solar Macharius and Saint Alicia Dominica were Astartes? Cause they, not Astartes, led the two greatest crusades to restore the Imperium since the Horus Heresy.

What Astartes are, are special forces to an extreme. A protracted line battle is the worst place to put them; that they get stuck in them so often is mostly due to GW finding it "epic" and "awesome" more than demonstrating where they are their strongest.

Marines aren't special forces. Marines are like a Roman legion which is a fully functional battle line. It is not a coincidence that Chapters are 1000 men. It is not a coincidence that their forces break down into smaller units with "combat squads" just like roman armies did. It is no coincidence that marines use Gladius swords and carry storm shields with giant armor. Does it make sense that a roman inspired army would be a military success in the real world with guns and super space fleets? NOPE. Then again...in this universe people still use swords and try to fight at close quarters so...arguments for realism don't belong here.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Perfectly fine to like the Antagonists and side casts. Certainly you don't think marines don't matter though...You can't both like 40k lore and believe Marines don't matter - they are incompatible statements.

Headcanon. In my opinion, Space Marines aren't the "protagonists" because they are important, but because they are popular. If, let say, Skitarii were the most popular faction, we would read dozens of books about them and know the dozens of declination between the various styles and sub-factions of the Skitarii and the Adeptus Mechanicus. We would know about their history and their battles, their heroes and villains. To me, the books and most of the lore of 40K is the stuff of legend more then the stuff of history. Guardsmen tell stories of Space Marines. They are legends of an ancient time where they used to be Legion and conquered whole world. They still exist. They are shadow of their former selves, but people still tell stories of their exploits passed, present and imagined or embelished and it's those stories we read about in books and codexes.

PS: A Roman Legion wasn't of a thousand men, but more around 4500. Also, a Centuria wasn't of hundred strong, but 80 or 160 depending on where they were on the battleline.

Headcanon is a weak excuse. You are just telling your own story the way you want it to be. That is totally fine too - just don't make absurd statements like Marines don't matter. Or Marines don't actually win battles or shape the 40k universe. There is no debate that they do these things.

What a Roman legion was varied a lot over the course of their history. 1000 is the common term that is thrown around - that is all that matters. The point is it was a very regimented force that broke down into smaller parts. Companies/ Squads/ Squads that could break up and fight in 5s to 3's. It destroyed their opponents. This is what space marines are. They beat their opponents with Roman tactics. They aren't a special forces unit. They are a fully functional army.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marines are like a Roman legion which is a fully functional battle line

Just because a force has 1000 guys doesn't mean it's "like a roman legion". 1000 is just a nice sounding round number that Games Workshop picked up for consistency's sake, and nothing else. And ultimately, the Roman legions faced off against numbers similar to their own in most of their battles, rather than being horribly outnumbered (look for example at the Varian Disaster, where about 15k germanic "barbarians" ambushed and captured or killed around 20k legionnaries).

As for "arguments about realism have no place here", I'm actually arguing from their equipment. Marines are certainly not a mainline force, lacking the numbers to conquer hold a city with conventional tactics, let alone conquer and hold a planet. That's why they have other means available to them than line infantry. They are not equipped for a role as common line infantry or even shock infantry. They're equipped as a rapid strike force of special operatives, with things like drop pods and other numerous rapid transport and deployment options, expensive but powerful weaponry that has limited ammunition but is able to make a huge impact while it lasts, heavy armor and training suitable for close quarters fighting, getting basically first pick of some of the best technology available to the Imperium, and so on. The Imperial Guard are the Imperium's line infantry, not the Space Marines. They're equipped and trained for that role. Redundant ammo supplies, often trained minimally or in very specific roles, cheaper mass produced equipment, and so on. And they have the numbers for it, plus their commanders have the disregard for lives necessary for a lot of line infantry tactics.

 =Angel= wrote:
If ten percent of those worlds were engaged in wars at any one time (a staggering amount) there would be a tactical squad available for each and every world. In fact, the worlds are grouped in systems and sectors and the warzones might include tens or dozens of worlds. In that case there would be a demi company to a company available for each conflict.
Not every conflict gets space marine support though, so say the top ten percent do. That's roughly a chapter's worth of marines available for the conflict. 90% of actions would be carried out by Guard and Skittari, with occasional support from the Ecclesiarchy and Rogue Trader private armies.
not all of these conflicts would get a full chapter, but a couple hundred marines committing to a warzone makes taking out enemy warlords and space superiority much easier.

I just wanted to support this.

What people fail to understand is that despite what the lore implies, a vast majority of the Imperium is never touched by war. A planet even on the fringes of the Imperium can go for countless generations without seeing any kind of threat.

The lore says there are roughly 1 million inhabited worlds in the Imperium, and space marines literally show up at conflict zones, do their thing and head toward the next conflict zone. 10% of the planets being under siege in the Imperium is an unrealistically HUGE number, in all likelihood it is much smaller than that, probably around 1% at any given time. That means that there are roughly 100 marines for every planetary combat zone at any given time. This is a much more realistic number, but marines are also not that spread out. Some conflicts are turned by the presence of a single squad of marines, other conflicts see entire chapters of marines present, yet still most conflicts never see space marine involvement at all.

I agree with people saying that 1,000 marines conquering and holding a planet is silly and unrealistic. There are not enough of them to hold a planet no matter how good they are. But really, that isn't their job. A marine is the ultimate example of "force concentration" maximum warfare potential in the smallest space possible, because what they are really meant for are surgical attacks and boarding ships.

I do think "1,000 chapters of 1,000 marines" was written by people who had no sense of scale. But I also think those numbers work with how rare space marines are portrayed in the lore, and how devastating even a squad of them could be if delivered to the right place (IE the bridge of a capital ship, the command bunker of a planetary resistance).

The only thing that doesn't work IMO is how common space marine casualties are portrayed. Losing even a single marine should be a tragedy and considered a failure by that squad. Losing a company should put the entire chapter out of action for at least a decade.

w1zard wrote:
I agree with people saying that 1,000 marines conquering and holding a planet is silly and unrealistic. There are not enough of them to hold a planet no matter how good they are. But really, that isn't their job. A marine is the ultimate example of "force concentration" maximum warfare potential in the smallest space possible, because what they are really meant for are surgical attacks and boarding ships.

Pretty much this exactly. That's why they have the equipment they do-- expensive equipment that does a whole lot in a short amount of time, high-tech rapid deployment vehicles, and so on.

A guardsman is equipped both cheaper and also for longer engagements than a marine is.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What a Roman legion was varied a lot over the course of their history. 1000 is the common term that is thrown around - that is all that matters. The point is it was a very regimented force that broke down into smaller parts. Companies/ Squads/ Squads that could break up and fight in 5s to 3's. It destroyed their opponents. This is what space marines are. They beat their opponents with Roman tactics. They aren't a special forces unit. They are a fully functional army.

That's the proper of any professional or even semi-professional army. They can all be reduced to smaller and smaller operational groups should the need arise. No large army can go without a chain of command and thus subdivision of the forces. Saying that the Space Marines have ranks and various operational sizes doesn't make them any different from any well organised army in history of which the Romans were not the first, though they certainly did developped the first army of enlisted volunteer professional in history. Ironicaly, Space Marines aren't even all volunteers, some are simply boys from primitive societies or little gangster claimed by the Space Marines and brainwashed then trained into Space Marines.

Sense of scale is a term of realism. Want to know what is unrealistic? Some marine charters go rouge and can compete with a million planet empire.

Guess the whole foundation of 40k is being propped up by stories of propaganda and legend. Marines are actually insignificant because they are too few. Great story there. I really want to read that story.

w1zard wrote:
The only thing that doesn't work IMO is how common space marine casualties are portrayed. Losing even a single marine should be a tragedy and considered a failure by that squad. Losing a company should put the entire chapter out of action for at least a decade.

Space Marines casualty are common probably because, as powerful as they might be, they aren't that powerful and perhapse even weak when compared to the elite warriors of other races. Also, as tough as they might be, they can't really be described as tougher then tanks and any army should be able to deal with enemy tanks. The good thing is that it doesn't take that long to produce a new Space Marines. Compared to any actual modern day soldier, it's extremely long and would make them unreplaceable, but in the context of 40K with its decade and century long wars, it's not that bad. It can take as little as 5 years to produce a new Space Marine from boy to power armored titan.

epronovost wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What a Roman legion was varied a lot over the course of their history. 1000 is the common term that is thrown around - that is all that matters. The point is it was a very regimented force that broke down into smaller parts. Companies/ Squads/ Squads that could break up and fight in 5s to 3's. It destroyed their opponents. This is what space marines are. They beat their opponents with Roman tactics. They aren't a special forces unit. They are a fully functional army.

That's the proper of any professional or even semi-professional army. They can all be reduced to smaller and smaller operational groups should the need arise. No large army can go without a chain of command and thus subdivision of the forces. Saying that the Space Marines have ranks and various operational sizes doesn't make them any different from any well organised army in history of which the Romans were not the first, though they certainly did developped the first army of enlisted volunteer professional in history. Ironicaly, Space Marines aren't even all volunteers, some are simply boys from primitive societies or little gangster claimed by the Space Marines and brainwashed then trained into Space Marines.

It wasn't true of the armies they were fighting. It is a piece out of an era.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Guess the whole foundation of 40k is being propped up by stories of propaganda and legend. Marines are actually insignificant because they are too few. Great story there. I really want to read that story.

Can you like a story in which the vast majority of the army of the evil Horus were regular humans? That it's the story of trillions of people falling under the spell of some "space tyrant" and his army of loyal "black knights" fighting and dying for in his war and for his cause.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

It wasn't true of the armies they were fighting. It is a piece out of an era.

The Macedonian army and that of all other Hellenistic kingdom were divided in numerous corp and smaller groups and so were the Sassanid in later era. Hell, even the Gauls had organised subdivision in their armies based on kindred and clans. None of these army were made of volunteer professionals though (with a possible exception for some units in Hellenic armies). Prior to the Romans, the Persian had started to design an army with various corp. and unit sizes for recruitment and administrative reasons more then tactical though.

w1zard wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
If ten percent of those worlds were engaged in wars at any one time (a staggering amount) there would be a tactical squad available for each and every world. In fact, the worlds are grouped in systems and sectors and the warzones might include tens or dozens of worlds. In that case there would be a demi company to a company available for each conflict.
Not every conflict gets space marine support though, so say the top ten percent do. That's roughly a chapter's worth of marines available for the conflict. 90% of actions would be carried out by Guard and Skittari, with occasional support from the Ecclesiarchy and Rogue Trader private armies.
not all of these conflicts would get a full chapter, but a couple hundred marines committing to a warzone makes taking out enemy warlords and space superiority much easier.

I just wanted to support this.

What people fail to understand is that despite what the lore implies, a vast majority of the Imperium is never touched by war. A planet even on the fringes of the Imperium can go for countless generations without seeing any kind of threat.

The lore says there are roughly 1 million inhabited worlds in the Imperium, and space marines literally show up at conflict zones, do their thing and head toward the next conflict zone. 10% of the planets being under siege in the Imperium is an unrealistically HUGE number, in all likelihood it is much smaller than that, probably around 1% at any given time. That means that there are roughly 100 marines for every planetary combat zone at any given time. This is a much more realistic number, but marines are also not that spread out. Some conflicts are turned by the presence of a single squad of marines, other conflicts see entire chapters of marines present, yet still most conflicts never see space marine involvement at all.

I agree with people saying that 1,000 marines conquering and holding a planet is silly and unrealistic. There are not enough of them to hold a planet no matter how good they are. But really, that isn't their job. A marine is the ultimate example of "force concentration" maximum warfare potential in the smallest space possible, because what they are really meant for are surgical attacks and boarding ships.

I do think "1,000 chapters of 1,000 marines" was written by people who had no sense of scale. But I also think those numbers work with how rare space marines are portrayed in the lore, and how devastating even a squad of them could be if delivered to the right place (IE the bridge of a capital ship, the command bunker of a planetary resistance).

The only thing that doesn't work IMO is how common space marine casualties are portrayed. Losing even a single marine should be a tragedy and considered a failure by that squad. Losing a company should put the entire chapter out of action for at least a decade.

Pretty much this. The Imperium itself is always at war, but not every world of it is. Of the fraction of worlds which have active conflicts, and of the fraction of those that do not require Astartes intervention (by virtue of the Imperium winning that war already), there should be enough Space Marines left to have enough effect. Again, all it takes is a squad of Marines to make a critical strike, and then they're off, making the fullest use of their greatest asset: massive force concentration and logistical superiority. As mentioned earlier, Space Marines have incredible combat mobility - not necessary from actual speed, but from their insanely brilliant ability to survive/recover from otherwise mortal wounds. A Space Marine casualty can be back on his feet mere days after catastrophic damage, whereas a human solider, even a Skitarii, isn't combat effective in nearly as much time. A Space Marine needs no sleep, needs no extended supply train, doesn't need to rely on a third party navy for transport.
A squad of Marines, or maybe more, depending on the strength of the enemy/importance of the mission, achieve a critical objective. They complete that, let other forces consolidate behind them to mop up survivors, continue the war, etc etc, while they're already moving onto a different objective, perhaps on another world or campaign front entirely.

That is the purpose of Space Marines - to live a life of constant war, from one critical pivotal mission to another, to act as the tip of the spear of the Emperor's armies.

Why does [insert warhammer force here] matter?

The obvious aside.

Marines are a rapid response force. Highly mobile, sturdy and well trained and equipped. Each space marine carries with him several lifetimes worth of combat experience, knowledge, tactics and strategy.

Space marines inherited the philosophies and ideals of the emperor, they're not so easily manipulated, and most of the chapters are rather more forward and free thinking when compared to say, guard regiments or mechanicus battle groups.

Different chapters have different responses to different issues. Ultramarines, for example are a rather large chapter, with the ability to quickly replace their lost stock of marines. Where as a chapter such as the Crimson Fists, take losses that much harder as they're much more stretched and have to take much more time to replace casualties.

epronovost wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Guess the whole foundation of 40k is being propped up by stories of propaganda and legend. Marines are actually insignificant because they are too few. Great story there. I really want to read that story.

Can you like a story in which the vast majority of the army of the evil Horus were regular humans? That it's the story of trillions of people falling under the spell of some "space tyrant" and his army of loyal "black knights" fighting and dying for in his war and for his cause.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

It wasn't true of the armies they were fighting. It is a piece out of an era.

The Macedonian army and that of all other Hellenistic kingdom were divided in numerous corp and smaller groups and so were the Sassanid in later era. Hell, even the Gauls had organised subdivision in their armies based on kindred and clans. None of these army were made of volunteer professionals though (with a possible exception for some units in Hellenic armies). Prior to the Romans, the Persian had started to design an army with various corp. and unit sizes for recruitment and administrative reasons more then tactical though.

"Can you like a story in which the vast majority of the army of the evil Horus were regular humans? "
Sure - History is great for that. Not that ether side is evil or good though. Perhaps their leaders but I don't need a fantasy world to fill that itch. For pure fantasy - A world where 1 man (a super man) can make a difference is much more interesting. A fantasy where the legends are real. The struggle is truly between good and evil. Or in the case of 40k. THe less evil vs the great evil. In reality a man is nothing. It only becomes more apparent in a 1million planet empire.

Regardless of military history prior to the Romans. The Fluff of the Astartes is very Roman. ESP the Ultramarines (who all codex compliant chapters aspire to be like) They wield gladius. Wear fluffy tails on their helms. Have Roman Nameology. The "Codex (Latin for Notebook) Astartes" I mean...come on. They aren't emulating Macedonians - they are emulating Romans. The whole Heresy is basically the Collapse of Rome and other events that happened during it's history. Then there are the non compliant and special chapters that each represent an era in history.

Obviously the White scars represent the Mongolian Empire.

Space Wolves Vikings

Black Templar the Crusaders of the middle ages in Europe

So on and so on.

 Xenomancers wrote:

"Can you like a story in which the vast majority of the army of the evil Horus were regular humans? "
Sure - History is great for that. Not that ether side is evil or good though. Perhaps their leaders but I don't need a fantasy world to fill that itch. For pure fantasy - A world where 1 man (a super man) can make a difference is much more interesting. A fantasy where the legends are real. The struggle is truly between good and evil. Or in the case of 40k. THe less evil vs the great evil. In reality a man is nothing. It only becomes more apparent in a 1million planet empire.

If that's what scratches you itch, go ahead. I personnaly like my fiction to be about little people more than mythological heroes and I think a the univers built by GW is poor for that sort of story and requires too much suspention of disbelief, but that same univers is ideal for the stories of human fighting in wars of impossible cruelty and scope.

Regardless of military history prior to the Romans. The Fluff of the Astartes is very Roman. ESP the Ultramarines (who all codex compliant chapters aspire to be like) They wield gladius. Wear fluffy tails on their helms. Have Roman Nameology. The "Codex (Latin for Notebook) Astartes" I mean...come on. They aren't emulating Macedonians - they are emulating Romans. The whole Heresy is basically the Collapse of Rome and other events that happened during it's history. Then there are the non compliant and special chapters that each represent an era in history.

Obviously the White scars represent the Mongolian Empire.

Space Wolves Vikings

Black Templar the Crusaders of the middle ages in Europe

So on and so on.

On that we perfectly agree. The Space Marine are supremely derivative and are inspired by pretty much all popular military culture and organisations. So is the Imperial Guard and perhapse even to a greater extand, but it was left unexploited outside of some fluff and Fantasy Flight material.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sense of scale is a term of realism. Want to know what is unrealistic? Some marine charters go rouge and can compete with a million planet empire.

When have a few chapters ever really competed with the Imperium? A few chapters could be pretty annoying. . . they could smash a few worlds, sow chaos in space along shipping lanes, and tangle up a lot of resources in taking them down. But compete? To the Imperium it means some planetary tithes are late, and they'll have to spin up some replacement chapters and rebuild some starships when the eventual drubbing is over.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Regardless of military history prior to the Romans. The Fluff of the Astartes is very Roman. ESP the Ultramarines (who all codex compliant chapters aspire to be like) They wield gladius. Wear fluffy tails on their helms. Have Roman Nameology. The "Codex (Latin for Notebook) Astartes" I mean...come on. They aren't emulating Macedonians - they are emulating Romans. The whole Heresy is basically the Collapse of Rome and other events that happened during it's history.

The Imperium as a whole has many Romanesque features. The Ultramarines themselves are increasingly heavily themed after the Eastern Roman Empire- the Byzantines. The very Greek half This is especially true in the Horus Heresy fluff and ties in neatly to the whole "Imperium Secundus" concept. They are supposed to be a sort of same-but-different counterpart to Imperial Terra. So actually, they are emulating Macedonians to a certain extent (especially as Rome in general emulated the Hellenic culture to some extent).

But aside from the overall Roman theming of the Imperium, Space Marines in general are not terribly Roman. Of the big 9, only the Ultramarines have generally Roman theming, with medieval Europe being the most common (Dark Angels and Imperial Fists being knightly types, Space Wolves being vikings, Blood Angels being renaissance* Italians). Other Chapters can (and do) emulate the Codex Astartes without emulating the Ultramarines culture itself. I'd say some version of medieval European culture is the most common theme for Marine Chapters, which does nicely suit the feudal set up of the post-Heresy Imperium.



*I know the renaissance overlaps both the medieval and early modern periods, but history isn't well defined. Certainly far removed from Rome proper, although inspired by it secondhand (thirdhand for the Blood Angels!)

It feels like certain posters are reacting to people saying "Space Marines specialize in, and indeed operate best, when doing lightning strikes and special forces type missions" as if that directly translates to think "Space Marines don't matter".

Meh?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sense of scale is a term of realism. Want to know what is unrealistic? Some marine charters go rouge and can compete with a million planet empire.

When have a few chapters ever really competed with the Imperium? A few chapters could be pretty annoying. . . they could smash a few worlds, sow chaos in space along shipping lanes, and tangle up a lot of resources in taking them down. But compete? To the Imperium it means some planetary tithes are late, and they'll have to spin up some replacement chapters and rebuild some starships when the eventual drubbing is over.

First of all sorry - I meant Legions not chapters. Pretty sure that existing for 10k years after killing/maiming the God emperor of man. Invading countless worlds and corrupting their citizens qualifies as competition. The reality is that the forces of Chaos could never stand against even a fraction of the imperial might. They do though. Why? Because Chaos is tricky and marines are awesome. It doesn't make sense. It's just fantasy. Just like marine fluff. Try to apply realism to this world and I can see why you wouldn't enjoy it.


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 Melissia wrote:
It feels like certain posters are reacting to people saying "Space Marines specialize in, and indeed operate best, when doing lightning strikes and special forces type missions" as if that directly translates to think "Space Marines don't matter".

Meh?

That is not actually the roll they fill. The roll they fill is they fight where they are needed most using whatever tactic is necessary because they specialize at everything related to war. Because they are always fighting and are modified in every way possible to be super soldiers. If they need to fight a long protracted battle they can do that. If they need to lighting strike they can do that. If they need to assassinate a warlord they can do that. If they can't do it. More marines can do it for sure.

Chaos can stand against the Imperium because of the Warp. They either outright convert Imperial forces to Chaos forces or strike out from the Eye where Chaos cannot be beaten. With how things in the setting work it makes reasonable sense that Chaos continues to exist.

epronovost wrote:
Space Marines casualty are common probably because, as powerful as they might be, they aren't that powerful and perhapse even weak when compared to the elite warriors of other races. Also, as tough as they might be, they can't really be described as tougher then tanks and any army should be able to deal with enemy tanks. The good thing is that it doesn't take that long to produce a new Space Marines. Compared to any actual modern day soldier, it's extremely long and would make them unreplaceable, but in the context of 40K with its decade and century long wars, it's not that bad. It can take as little as 5 years to produce a new Space Marine from boy to power armored titan.

I fail to see how space marines live to be 200 years old regularly when 20% casualties per conflict are the norm in the lore. Not only that, 5 years to replace a single space marine is an underestimate, it is more like 10 years, and the washout rate is like 90+% because most aspirants cannot handle the implants. It may just be bias because the conflicts in which the marines take heavy casualties are usually the most "interesting" and are the ones always portrayed in the lore... but realistically a chapter would be militarily useless after 2 or 3 conflicts taking the number of casualties that space marine units are normally portrayed taking in a lot of the lore. Especially since the space marine creation process takes so long and has such low yields.

If we wanted to be realistic as to a chapter sustaining itself, it needs to generate more space marines than it loses... Most space marine chapters only get like 1 or 2 new marines per year, meaning that they can only really lose 1 or 2 marines per year to be sustainable. Going from those numbers, a marine squad should only lose a single squadmate in roughly 50-100 conflicts. yet we regularly see space marines losing half of the squad in a single battle, which is entirely unsustainable unless new marines are getting created as fast as guardsmen get conscripted.

w1zard wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Space Marines casualty are common probably because, as powerful as they might be, they aren't that powerful and perhapse even weak when compared to the elite warriors of other races. Also, as tough as they might be, they can't really be described as tougher then tanks and any army should be able to deal with enemy tanks. The good thing is that it doesn't take that long to produce a new Space Marines. Compared to any actual modern day soldier, it's extremely long and would make them unreplaceable, but in the context of 40K with its decade and century long wars, it's not that bad. It can take as little as 5 years to produce a new Space Marine from boy to power armored titan.

I fail to see how space marines live to be 200 years old regularly when 20% casualties per conflict are the norm in the lore. Not only that, 5 years to replace a single space marine is an underestimate, it is more like 10 years, and the washout rate is like 90+% because most aspirants cannot handle the implants. It may just be bias because the conflicts in which the marines take heavy casualties are usually the most "interesting" and are the ones always portrayed in the lore... but realistically a chapter would be militarily useless after 2 or 3 conflicts taking the number of casualties that space marine units are normally portrayed taking in a lot of the lore. Especially since the space marine creation process takes so long and has such low yields.

If we wanted to be realistic as to a chapter sustaining itself, it needs to generate more space marines than it loses... Most space marine chapters only get like 1 or 2 new marines per year, meaning that they can only really lose 1 or 2 marines per year to be sustainable. Going from those numbers, a marine squad should only lose a single squadmate in roughly 50-100 conflicts. yet we regularly see space marines losing half of the squad in a single battle, which is entirely unsustainable unless new marines are getting created as fast as guardsmen get conscripted.

Technically, the Scout company has no upper limit, so this can be handled by having massive Scout companies (or multiple- is it the Aurora Chapter that has three?). Some Chapters are specifically noted as having enormous recruitment rates, which suggests they have a huge number of initiates in the pipeline- perhaps not frontline combat units yet, but at least close to deployment. The Imperial Fists are a good example- they have multiple recruitment worlds, and seem to be able to replenish entire companies within a few years in extreme examples. The loss of experience would be huge, but the Marine creation process must be hugely developed and very efficient for them (they also have one of the better geneseed implantation rates, I want to say 70%?). Chapters with poor geneseed implantation are noted as being much slower to recover too, like the Salamanders.

Also worth bearing in mind that Marine casualties can often return back to service in a short time frame- casualties on the tabletop would generally equate to a recovered Marine for the Chapter. Of course in the fluff we see casualties a lot, but I think you are right to point out these are often the most significant conflicts against more dangerous foes. For example, we know there are thousands of minor xenos incursions and small rebellions that are put down all the time- these likely incur minimal casualties to a passing Marine force.

In terms of the age- there is probably a core of 200 year old veterans surviving conflict after conflict, surrounded by a larger number of constantly replenished younger Marines, with only the best and luckiest surviving to become veterans themselves.

w1zard wrote:

I fail to see how space marines live to be 200 years old regularly when 20% casualties per conflict are the norm in the lore.

First, a 200 years old Space Marine is supposed to be exceptional. Very few Marines reach that age. Most of them aren't older then humans in similar position or maybe slightly more then that. The youngest Space Marine deployed aren't even adults. A Scout Space Marine can be as young as 15 years old. Also, casualties include wounded. Space Marines are very tough and hard to kill. They can survive crippling wounds and recover.

Not only that, 5 years to replace a single space marine is an underestimate

It's the minimum to go from teenage boy to Space Marine in power armor. It's not going to replace a Tactical Marine in one of the first 5 company, but it's a fully operational Space Marine. If there is nothing else, he will have to do the job.

it is more like 10 years, and the washout rate is like 90+% because most aspirants cannot handle the implants.

At worst, they can be mass produced then frozen until they need to be activated.

It may just be bias because the conflicts in which the marines take heavy casualties are usually the most "interesting" and are the ones always portrayed in the lore... but realistically a chapter would be militarily useless after 2 or 3 conflicts taking the number of casualties that space marine units are normally portrayed taking in a lot of the lore. Especially since the space marine creation process takes so long and has such low yields.

If we wanted to be realistic as to a chapter sustaining itself, it needs to generate more space marines than it loses... Most space marine chapters only get like 1 or 2 new marines per year, meaning that they can only really lose 1 or 2 marines per year to be sustainable. Going from those numbers, a marine squad should only lose a single squadmate in roughly 50-100 conflicts. yet we regularly see space marines losing half of the squad in a single battle, which is entirely unsustainable unless new marines are getting created as fast as guardsmen get conscripted.

By the fluff, the Ultramarine fully recovered from their battle againt Hive Fleet Behemoth where they lost over 80% of their numbers in a century. If they got the material (AKA geneseed and equipment) to produce a Space Marine, a Chapter can recover very quickly especially since they always train at least 10% of their total number in permanence. Space Marines Chapter can thus take about a 100 casualty every three to four years and not even go bellow maximum number.

Ultramarines aren't really the norm because they've had a ridiculous support system from day 1 because that's their ridiculous thing.

Some marine chapters would be even more resilient, an iron hand for instance would very likely see the next battle after losing 4 limbs in a battle. half of them already being cybernetics.

Additionally, losing your last wound in game doesn't equate to dead in all situations. Simply unable to further take part in the fight. A regular human would probably be out of the round to the shoulder or leg, passing out due to the pain or bloodloss but very much able to be saved and healed.

A marine, with multiple redundant organs and that whole stasis cocoon thing would likely see the next battle except from the most powerful weapons.

Anyway, we shouldn't use tabletop rules to determine how good or bad a space marine is compared to a guardsmen. Tabletop rules need to be balanced for tabletop play.

Lorewise, If you ask me, a huge superhuman with two hearts clad in power armor will have a much lower attrition rate compared a guardsmen clad in a kevlar armor.

Heck in urban warfare (where you can't really bring heavy weapons to bear), that one space marine could probably keep on going and clear entire blocks if they are filled with just guardsmen with lasguns.

Quantity does have a quality of its own once it reaches a certain stage. But firstly, in certain environments (like urban warfare), then the benefits of quantity matters much less. Secondly, the mobility and independence of space marine units (They can go on and on without really requiring resupply), also reduces the benefits of quantity that guardmen may have. And where the benefits of having numbers are negated or reduced substantially, thats when space marines would definitely be much more sought after than just guardsmen.

Take an infested space hulk. You don't know if that Hulk is infested with chaos, tyranids, orcs, etc. But are you really going to send in squads of guardmen into its narrow corridors to investigate? What if there is no air even ? lol. What if there are important relics or STC you need to retrieve? Send in guardmen into that space Hulk ? If you had space marines, then its a no brainer to send them instead of guardsmen for such a mission. The guardsmen probably wouldn't survive 5 minutes.