Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets start in the most obivous places. Speed. A marine can run twice as fast as a human - yet in this game they have the exact same speed. For aspect warriors they should be even faster than that but probably not by much. Imagine if marines all moved like 10 inches and all had grenade launchers (or something similar). Not suggesting they remain at their point cost but just that they should have better cababilities. These are things that make marines worth something. These are the reason that marines actually matter to the imperium.

And imagine if all Eldar moved 20" and got to take two turns for every non-Eldar turn, fire warriors had STR 10 basic guns, orks couldn't lose unless the ork player believed that the game was lost, etc. Every faction has its claim to being unstoppable badasses, not just space marines. And you can't make every faction "like the fluff" without making everyone equal again but with more stat inflation.

And when did space marines start running twice as fast as regular humans anyways?

And even if they did, that doesn't necessarily translate to tabletop performance as a "move" is a measured advance with controlled weapons fire.

w1zard wrote:
But a tank won't actually waste time trying to take cover until it knows that kind of weapon is present. What is the point otherwise?

Tanks have a purpose, yes, but in the modern world with precise artillery, CAS missions and man-portable AT weapons it's not just to bravely roll forward over open ground and draw fire so you can "count their arrows". It is always better to be undetected until you strike, or at least not spotted if the enemy can hear you. Having to rely on your active defenses or gods forbid armor is the least attractive option since your tank is expensive and having it taken out - even "only" as a mobility kill - costs money and puts the crew and recovery teams at risk. And the modern MBTs have infantry support, air support (hopefully), lighter vehicles in support. If the MBT is the first element taking fire you've either messed something up OR planned to do so since your intelligence says they can't hurt you (much).

Vehicles, much less soldiers (even ones with power armor) shouldn't scout by walking up and seeing what they're getting shot with!

A space marine strike force might not have any support at all. Even one man down is a disaster, and if you don't wish to leave him behind another man must help him move. Sure, seeing a super soldier boldly wade in and suck up a hundred shots might be scary but it risks that expensive soldier all the same. Is it not just as scary or even worse to lose contact with one squad after the other in quick succession? A marine isn't gunning down 30 guys in a second but a squad will easily take out a lesser squad in one brutal attack.

Guardsmen with orders run twice as fast as space marines

 slave.entity wrote:
Guardsmen with orders run twice as fast as space marines

Right, because that is a full on sprint. Likewise many units can move up to 18" a turn with move+charge. And that still involves taking some time to shoot, throw grenades, coordinate with friendlies, etc.

That makes sense. I guess space marines just don't know how to sprint then?

 slave.entity wrote:
That makes sense. I guess space marines just don't know how to sprint then?

The Codex Astartes dictates that having a track meet in the middle of a battle is a waste of the Primarch's seed.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
That makes sense. I guess space marines just don't know how to sprint then?

The Codex Astartes dictates that having a track meet in the middle of a battle is a waste of the Primarch's seed.

Hilarious as that is it kind of falls apart with the Space Wolves, they don't care what the Codex dictates.

w1zard wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because Krak Missiles are anti-tank weapons.

Power Armor is tough. But it's not tougher than a tank.

And a single krak missile doesn't have 100% chance of killing a tank in one shot either. Your point?

A single Krak missile can reliably destroy a battle tank in a single shot. A power armor is a lighter then even a light tank armor like that of a Rhino, a Taurox or a Chimera. Krak missiles are designed to destroy those quickly and reliably. They can even take down rather well heavier tanks like Leman Russ or Predators if they hit them in a weaker spot and those tanks are tougher then terminator armor. That's the point of krak missile. A Marine can survive a krak missile just like an unarmored human can survive a bolter shot. They might just lose an arm or a leg. They might just be grazed and suffer minimal damage or see the missle bounce of their armor thanks to a very lucky angle. Let's not forget that Space Marine toughness isn't new or even unrivaled and most armies (if not all armies) have developped weapons specifically to take out this kind of threat.

 Bobthehero wrote:
With the way you describe and according to my personnal headcanon, they are stupid OP in that serie, big turn off.

Would you rather have them be slightly-better-than-human guardsmen wearing slightly-better-than-carapace armor?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Source for lasguns having a 0% chance of hurting a marine in armor. A source other than your own personal headcannon or fan animation, please.

As I said, the lore portrays the durability of space marines wildly. Some lore has the space marines getting downed by a few lasguns shots in the wrong place. Other lore has them basically immune to las-fire. Which one is right?

IMO it HAS to be the latter. The very idea of space marines makes no sense if marines are just slightly tougher stormtroopers because they would be utterly useless in the situations they are supposedly supposed to be fighting in.

An AK can technically take out a tank if the bullet somehow gets into the ventilation and then bounces around inside the body killing the crew but the odds would be pretty astronomical. You don't see tank crews panicking and running for cover when under small arms fire, the same way you shouldn't see marines panicking and scrambling for cover when under lasgun fire.

 Insectum7 wrote:
That is sometimes your job. Sometimes your job is to delay an enemy action or take on a force many times your size who has an unknown complement of weapons. In which case strolling unaided forward into 50 opposing infantry is dumb.

It absolutely is not if you knew you had a 99% chance of victory if you just strolled forward and gunned them down and a 1% chance of getting moderately wounded in the process. Taking cover and trading potshots in that kind of situation is an absolute waste of time.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm trying to draw the line between smart marines and over-the-top ridiculous marines (i.e. 30 rounds for 30 kills in a matter of seconds, and marines shouldn't take cover because they are literally invulnerable.)

I'm not trying to say marines never take cover, I am saying that against a force of 50 guardsmen armed with small arms, they don't NEED TO. They are literally walking tanks. A force of 50 guardsmen armed with mixed small arms and heavy weapons would have a better chance (and in this situation a marine would probably take cover against the heavier ordinance) but I would still give it a 50/50 chance that the marine still emerges victorious.

 Insectum7 wrote:
If I recall correctly, they're not even stupid OP in that animation, they're methodically advancing through mostly confined spaces and narrow corridors, engaging only a few disorganized opponents at a time. They advance into lasfire but never for long or against too many, and they take cover from heavy weapons.

W1zard seems to be conflating it drastically.

LOL you need to watch it again if that is what you think. The entire breaching scene in episode 2 was them walking into a shooting gallery with dozens of guardsmen on gantries and they just shrug off the fire and blast all of the guardsmen away. The only time a marine takes cover is when a single marine takes cover from a multilaser for a few seconds in episode 3, and that to prepare his plasma pistol to take out the emplaced position. The defenders aren't even disorganized, the entire point of that miniseries is to show that the defenders are competent and fighting how they should be fighting and they are STILL losing.

epronovost wrote:
A single Krak missile can reliably destroy a battle tank in a single shot...

If it hits the magazine or something but that is not guaranteed. It has an even greater chance of just messing up a track or even bouncing off harmlessly. Likewise, it is incorrect to assume a marine getting hit by a krak missile is instantly a death 100% of the time.

 slave.entity wrote:
That makes sense. I guess space marines just don't know how to sprint then?

I don't think anyone in the entire 40k universe knows how to sprint.

Hency why models that use their turn doing nothing but running (Move + Advance) somehow cover significantly less distance than models which first slow down to shoot and then stop entirely to fight (Move + Charge + Pile In + Consolidate).

 vipoid wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
That makes sense. I guess space marines just don't know how to sprint then?

I don't think anyone in the entire 40k universe knows how to sprint.

Hency why models that use their turn doing nothing but running (Move + Advance) somehow cover significantly less distance than models which first slow down to shoot and then stop entirely to fight (Move + Charge + Pile In + Consolidate).

Or need to be screamed at to propperly perform a sprint by a disgruntled Commanding officer, which probably is facepalming 24/7


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
That makes sense. I guess space marines just don't know how to sprint then?

The Codex Astartes dictates that having a track meet in the middle of a battle is a waste of the Primarch's seed.

Hilarious as that is it kind of falls apart with the Space Wolves, they don't care what the Codex dictates.

You see, they do know what sprinting is, but they forgot to pick with them the Stick to throw.

 Bobthehero wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
They never drop like Guardsmen, they're just not stupid OP, like in that miniseries. Dodging missiles like that is just... urgh, maybe that works for Eldars, but for Marines its just so wrong.

When half of a marine squad doesn't make it back from a mission it means they are dropping like guardsmen.

They are not stupid OP in that miniseries, that is HOW THEY SHOULD BE

With the way you describe and according to my personnal headcanon, they are stupid OP in that serie, big turn off.

I'd give it a watch before making your mind up on the overall thing, it's not that long.

w1zard wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
With the way you describe and according to my personnal headcanon, they are stupid OP in that serie, big turn off.

Would you rather have them be slightly-better-than-human guardsmen wearing slightly-better-than-carapace armor?

Power armor as it currently stands has a 33% chance of saving vs an anti-tank missile. That's pretty good.

w1zard wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Source for lasguns having a 0% chance of hurting a marine in armor. A source other than your own personal headcannon or fan animation, please.

As I said, the lore portrays the durability of space marines wildly. Some lore has the space marines getting downed by a few lasguns shots in the wrong place. Other lore has them basically immune to las-fire. Which one is right?

IMO it HAS to be the latter. The very idea of space marines makes no sense if marines are just slightly tougher stormtroopers because they would be utterly useless in the situations they are supposedly supposed to be fighting in.

Oh, ok. So you actually know that this is all your headcannon and just not consistent with the lore. Got it.

You say it only makes sense if they're invulnerable. I say it only makes sense if they're smart and used correctly. I prefer my version. Not only because it paints a more sophisticated picture of marines, but because it's more consistent with what we know.

w1zard wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
That is sometimes your job. Sometimes your job is to delay an enemy action or take on a force many times your size who has an unknown complement of weapons. In which case strolling unaided forward into 50 opposing infantry is dumb.

It absolutely is not if you knew you had a 99% chance of victory if you just strolled forward and gunned them down and a 1% chance of getting moderately wounded in the process. Taking cover and trading potshots in that kind of situation is an absolute waste of time.

While your reasoning is correct, you're operating on pure headcannon, as we know marines are not immune to lasfire.

w1zard wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm trying to draw the line between smart marines and over-the-top ridiculous marines (i.e. 30 rounds for 30 kills in a matter of seconds, and marines shouldn't take cover because they are literally invulnerable.)

I'm not trying to say marines never take cover, I am saying that against a force of 50 guardsmen armed with small arms, they don't NEED TO. They are literally walking tanks. A force of 50 guardsmen armed with mixed small arms and heavy weapons would have a better chance (and in this situation a marine would probably take cover against the heavier ordinance) but I would still give it a 50/50 chance that the marine still emerges victorious.

Headcannon, headcannon, headcannon. And if you're looking at only a 50/50 chance of emerging victorious, then it's likely not a smart move for the Emperor's finest.

w1zard wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
If I recall correctly, they're not even stupid OP in that animation, they're methodically advancing through mostly confined spaces and narrow corridors, engaging only a few disorganized opponents at a time. They advance into lasfire but never for long or against too many, and they take cover from heavy weapons.

W1zard seems to be conflating it drastically.

LOL you need to watch it again if that is what you think. The entire breaching scene in episode 2 was them walking into a shooting gallery with dozens of guardsmen on gantries and they just shrug off the fire and blast all of the guardsmen away. The only time a marine takes cover is when a single marine takes cover from a multilaser for a few seconds in episode 3, and that to prepare his plasma pistol to take out the emplaced position. The defenders aren't even disorganized, the entire point of that miniseries is to show that the defenders are competent and fighting how they should be fighting and they are STILL losing.

If by "dozens" you mean 17. Sure. There's a little moment pior to when the shooting begins where you see what the marines see, and it's a very countable number of heat signatures in the dark. So im this "epic" conflict you have what appears to be a combat squad of marines gunning down a loosely organized 17 cultists/renegades in the dark where the marines have the advantage of auto-senses.

So, marines vs. Cultists in the dark at roughly 3 to 1 odds. That's a far cry from 1 marine vs. 50 in broad daylight.

Your headcannon is the epitome of the meme "SSHPEESH MAHREEEENNS!!!"

 Insectum7 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
With the way you describe and according to my personnal headcanon, they are stupid OP in that serie, big turn off.

Would you rather have them be slightly-better-than-human guardsmen wearing slightly-better-than-carapace armor?

Power armor as it currently stands has a 33% chance of saving vs an anti-tank missile. That's pretty good.

which is the same chance it has of defending vs a lasgun more or less. which highlights why we should take the entire table top system with a grain of salt

w1zard wrote:
The defenders aren't even disorganized, the entire point of that miniseries is to show that the defenders are competent and fighting how they should be fighting and they are STILL losing.

And that's why it's space marine fanboy masturbation. Thankfully this idea that even a competent enemy doing everything right still loses to space marines is your headcanon, not anything produced by GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's worth remembering that when GW had the opportunity to give us a canon movie example, created under their direct control, of space marine combat what we got was single bolter shots punching straight through power armor and killing marines. Hell, the space marines even consider a frag grenade a relevant attack. Lasguns would presumably be less effective than bolters, but krak missiles/melta guns/grenade launchers/etc would be even more effective. And, as we see in the movie, charging straight into fire across open terrain would be suicide.

 Peregrine wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The defenders aren't even disorganized, the entire point of that miniseries is to show that the defenders are competent and fighting how they should be fighting and they are STILL losing.

And that's why it's space marine fanboy masturbation. Thankfully this idea that even a competent enemy doing everything right still loses to space marines is your headcanon, not anything produced by GW.

keep in mind in the real setting the space marines aren't going to be nice and limit the force they send at you on an arbitrary points level. they're going to look at what intell says is present at their target zone and bring eneugh firepower to crush said force. I suspect most marine operations would be fought under what would be seen as a BV advanage

 Peregrine wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's worth remembering that when GW had the opportunity to give us a canon movie example, created under their direct control, of space marine combat what we got was

single bolter shots punching straight through power armor and killing marines.


Hell, the space marines even consider a frag grenade a relevant attack. Lasguns would presumably be less effective than bolters, but krak missiles/melta guns/grenade launchers/etc would be even more effective. And, as we see in the movie, charging straight into fire across open terrain would be suicide.

Special ammo. Vengeance rounds to kill traitors.

But using that vid as an argument....

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
With the way you describe and according to my personnal headcanon, they are stupid OP in that serie, big turn off.

Would you rather have them be slightly-better-than-human guardsmen wearing slightly-better-than-carapace armor?

Power armor as it currently stands has a 33% chance of saving vs an anti-tank missile. That's pretty good.

which is the same chance it has of defending vs a lasgun more or less. which highlights why we should take the entire table top system with a grain of salt

Math?

66% chance of saving, vs 33%. Coupled with a 33% chance of wounding, as opposed to 83%.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
With the way you describe and according to my personnal headcanon, they are stupid OP in that serie, big turn off.

Would you rather have them be slightly-better-than-human guardsmen wearing slightly-better-than-carapace armor?

Power armor as it currently stands has a 33% chance of saving vs an anti-tank missile. That's pretty good.

which is the same chance it has of defending vs a lasgun more or less. which highlights why we should take the entire table top system with a grain of salt

Math?

66% chance of saving, vs 33%. Coupled with a 33% chance of wounding, as opposed to 83%.

I'd just woken up

BrianDavion wrote:
which is the same chance it has of defending vs a lasgun more or less

If you're gonna use stuff like that for your arguments, at least get the numbers right. 2/3rds is not "more or less" the same as 1/3rd.

 Insectum7 wrote:
And when did space marines start running twice as fast as regular humans anyways?

And even if they did, that doesn't necessarily translate to tabletop performance as a "move" is a measured advance with controlled weapons fire.

So a human should have equal messured advance compared to a space marine who literally has computers and specially adapted organs making their job a lot easier? Not to mention about 5 times as much muscle and a powered suit helping them move?

Plus I am not sure why you dispute this. Faster and stronger is not really a debate. They have the excact same movement statstic in game and always have - it's a travesty.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets start in the most obivous places. Speed. A marine can run twice as fast as a human - yet in this game they have the exact same speed. For aspect warriors they should be even faster than that but probably not by much. Imagine if marines all moved like 10 inches and all had grenade launchers (or something similar). Not suggesting they remain at their point cost but just that they should have better cababilities. These are things that make marines worth something. These are the reason that marines actually matter to the imperium.

And imagine if all Eldar moved 20" and got to take two turns for every non-Eldar turn, fire warriors had STR 10 basic guns, orks couldn't lose unless the ork player believed that the game was lost, etc. Every faction has its claim to being unstoppable badasses, not just space marines. And you can't make every faction "like the fluff" without making everyone equal again but with more stat inflation.

Aye stat inflation is a problem. You can't honestly hold to an argument that a human should have equal speed to a space marine....

w1zard wrote:

If it hits the magazine or something but that is not guaranteed. It has an even greater chance of just messing up a track or even bouncing off harmlessly.

Nothing is guaranteed in war, but it can reliably do it. The weapon wouldn't exist if it wasn't reliably capable of doing its primary function. If you shoot a krak missile and aimed correctly, you should destroy a tank. A reasonnably well trained

Likewise, it is incorrect to assume a marine getting hit by a krak missile is instantly a death 100% of the time.

Indeed it doesn't mean death a 100% of the time, but a direct hit in the torso or near the torso will always kill him. His only chance of surviving is if he got hit in the arms or legs and is lucky enough to just lose that limb that or if he was hit by a dud. A bolt round can kill a Space Marine in power armor if it hits a weak spot or if the space marine get's pummeled by enough shots. An ammunition and order of magnitude stronger will do it very easily.

The only thing that would make Space Marine logically consistent within the univers of 40K would be if htey were an order of magnitude stronger than anything else in the galaxy which they were never described as such OR if they were basically a hundred time more numerous and fighting in much larger forces.

I personnaly decided to solve this little problem by relying on Chapter Serfs. Each Space Marine Chapter has basically about 100 to 300 Serf highly trained Serfs for combat duty, equipped with elite guard equipment, special weapons and armored support drawned from their Chapter arsenal. Their job is mostly to man the ships of the Astartes, their fortress and provide ground support to the Space Marine themselves who will operate as the spearhead for the Serfs. Since the Serfs are very good soldiers, most being rejected for Space Marines transformation due to genetic incompatibility, but still being trained to high standards, they can prove to be very efficient. This means each Chapter is basically about a 1000 Space Marines plus 200 000 Serfs and armor support. That's a fairly large army that can reasonnably quell a rebellion before it spreads, fight off raids and be a reasonnably efficient first intervention force while the Imperial Guard is gathering.

 Peregrine wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The defenders aren't even disorganized, the entire point of that miniseries is to show that the defenders are competent and fighting how they should be fighting and they are STILL losing.

And that's why it's space marine fanboy masturbation. Thankfully this idea that even a competent enemy doing everything right still loses to space marines is your headcanon, not anything produced by GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's worth remembering that when GW had the opportunity to give us a canon movie example, created under their direct control, of space marine combat what we got was single bolter shots punching straight through power armor and killing marines. Hell, the space marines even consider a frag grenade a relevant attack. Lasguns would presumably be less effective than bolters, but krak missiles/melta guns/grenade launchers/etc would be even more effective. And, as we see in the movie, charging straight into fire across open terrain would be suicide.

You might notice that .75 round flying with a rocket motor is causing a lot of damage. It's no surprise really because it is a .75 armor penetrating round - basically a 20mm. A bolter is a friggen artillery piece. Represented in this game as the same strength of a catachan….joke. BTW this is a pretty terrible movie.

Erm, I am not sure what artillery piece you're talking about, but you're wrong.

BrianDavion wrote:


I'd just woken up

Haha. I was like: "Davion's off his usual game today."

 Bobthehero wrote:
Erm, I am not sure what artillery piece you're talking about, but you're wrong.

20mm cannons are artillery...That is what I am talking about. They are typically anti air weapons or anti tank rifles. Every marine has one.

Okay, I'll give to AAA, but oin 40k and modern terms, a 20mm will do very little against a tank, likely less than a lasgun on a Marine

 Bobthehero wrote:
Okay, I'll give to AAA, but oin 40k and modern terms, a 20mm will do very little against a tank, likely less than a lasgun on a Marine

Nah - lasguns are basically modern Assault rifles in terms of damage. Their main advantage is they have much lighter ammunition and would be VERY accurate compared to a projectile weapon. 20mm would be devastating against a light vehical (humvie/transport vehical) and mostly infective against a medium vehical like a rhino or chimera. You put enough 20mm into armor though its gonna break through somewhere. Not suggesting that marines should be mowing down vehicles with bolters. Something like a guardsmen though should be 1 shot 1 kill 0 save though. Something like a marine will take big damage from it but a lot of shot will bounce off if it hits shoulder pad or an angled piece of armor like the sides of the leg or knee pad.

Just an idea of what a marine would be doing to guardsmen - right here.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=20Mm+Machine+Gun+German&&view=detail&mid=CA761CBAE04354EA274BCA761CBAE04354EA274B&&FORM=VRDGAR

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Okay, I'll give to AAA, but oin 40k and modern terms, a 20mm will do very little against a tank, likely less than a lasgun on a Marine

Nah - lasguns are basically modern Assault rifles in terms of damage. Their main advantage is they have much lighter ammunition and would be VERY accurate compared to a projectile weapon. 20mm would be devastating against a light vehical (humvie/transport vehical) and mostly infective against a medium vehical like a rhino or chimera. You put enough 20mm into armor though its gonna break through somewhere. Not suggesting that marines should be mowing down vehicles with bolters. Something like a guardsmen though should be 1 shot 1 kill 0 save though. Something like a marine will take big damage from it but a lot of shot will bounce off if it hits shoulder pad or an angled piece of armor like the sides of the leg or knee pad.

Just an idea of what a marine would be doing to guardsmen - right here.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=20Mm+Machine+Gun+German&&view=detail&mid=CA761CBAE04354EA274BCA761CBAE04354EA274B&&FORM=VRDGAR

I have seen a 5.56 round disable a foxhound.... totally random, should not have been possible and I am no engineer but lo and behold it happened and I was shown it, one of the most random things I have ever seen.