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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

epronovost wrote:Black Library aren't the sole producer of the lore of 40K. Codex and campaign books do hold an enormous amount of information about the background and there is no solid wall between the lore and the rules in the codexes.

Yes there is. It's called "datasheets" and "everything else that isn't a datasheet".

Yes, Codexes do have some fluff, but that fluff isn't held in the datasheets. My apologies for not being accurate enough when I implied that Codexes had no fluff impact, what I meant was "the datasheets have no fluff impact".

If it's on a datasheet, it's an abstraction. If it's not, then it's lore.

Can you cite a GW source for this policy, or is it just your own personal preferences? Datasheet rules may be an abstraction of the fluff but where is GW's statement that they are not relevant sources?

I'd argue 40k in general works best when you turn the logical part of your mind off.
Ignore all you know about modern science, physics, chemistry, biology, all of that, and purely work on what exists and happens in the universe.

Sure, you get some wacky inconsistencies, but I personally think that's preferable than bringing up things like the square-cube law, or how much damage a Space Marine could "really" take, or how small some conflicts are. Ignore the logic of our world, and embrace the unlogic of 40k.

If you're supposed to ignore logic then how do you have any kind of discussion at all? After all, it's only real-world logic that tells us that getting shot in the head is usually fatal, how do you know it works the same way in 40k? How do you know that gravity still pulls in the conventional direction? Etc. What you're asking for isn't to turn off logic entirely, it's to handwave away all of the inconsistencies and absurdities with your favorite faction.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

epronovost wrote:Black Library aren't the sole producer of the lore of 40K. Codex and campaign books do hold an enormous amount of information about the background and there is no solid wall between the lore and the rules in the codexes.

Yes there is. It's called "datasheets" and "everything else that isn't a datasheet".

Yes, Codexes do have some fluff, but that fluff isn't held in the datasheets. My apologies for not being accurate enough when I implied that Codexes had no fluff impact, what I meant was "the datasheets have no fluff impact".

If it's on a datasheet, it's an abstraction. If it's not, then it's lore.

Can you cite a GW source for this policy, or is it just your own personal preferences? Datasheet rules may be an abstraction of the fluff but where is GW's statement that they are not relevant sources?

I'd argue 40k in general works best when you turn the logical part of your mind off.
Ignore all you know about modern science, physics, chemistry, biology, all of that, and purely work on what exists and happens in the universe.

Sure, you get some wacky inconsistencies, but I personally think that's preferable than bringing up things like the square-cube law, or how much damage a Space Marine could "really" take, or how small some conflicts are. Ignore the logic of our world, and embrace the unlogic of 40k.

If you're supposed to ignore logic then how do you have any kind of discussion at all? After all, it's only real-world logic that tells us that getting shot in the head is usually fatal, how do you know it works the same way in 40k? How do you know that gravity still pulls in the conventional direction? Etc. What you're asking for isn't to turn off logic entirely, it's to handwave away all of the inconsistencies and absurdities with your favorite faction.

no it's about accepting the premise given without questioning it too deeply.
such as not noting that the super corosive spit space marines can have should logicly play havok with their teeth thus rendering all space marines into toothless wonders.

just as a random example. the fluff says 1000 man space marine chapters work, so.. they work.

 Peregrine wrote:
If it's on a datasheet, it's an abstraction. If it's not, then it's lore.

Can you cite a GW source for this policy, or is it just your own personal preferences? Datasheet rules may be an abstraction of the fluff but where is GW's statement that they are not relevant sources?

Shy of the custodes. Marines are biggest force mutipler they posses.

A small force of marines can break a seige, end camapigns with a single strike. A s small number but used right they can change far beyond there number.

Also there prescense alone in a campaign can turely change thr guards strengh and morale.

Yes. There a million, or maybe higher given primias founding but those million or 2 can have a impact far beyond it.

There comandor can live 1500years, legends of mankind. Comandor beyond equal and turn bmvast camapigns with there skill.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


40k isn't devoid of logic. It's devoid of OUR logic.

"40K logic" isn't consistent, thus it's not a univers with different sets of rule. One of the biggest example is the fact that Space Marines are supposed to be the elite of the elite, the spear tip of the Imperium capable of cracking the enemy at its strongest point, yet Space Marines aren't better then the best warriors of the enemy and sometimes are downright inferior while being significantly rarer then them. You can't appeal to the logic of a univers when the univers in question isn't consistent with its own premise.

This is a logical discussion though.

40k lore states marines matter because they turn the tide of battle often. Through utter combat superiority. They aren't infallible but they are one of the best forces under imperial control. To state otherwise is to undermine the lore with your own unsupported narrative. If you wish to make claims like undermining the lore with real world logic like "that wouldn't work" you have 2 options.

You can ether use logic to make sense of the fluff (AKA describing what their capabilities must be if they are to make a difference on a battlefield with millions of combatants and number in the dozens). They must be powerful. Stronger by factors of 10. Faster by factors of 3. As durable as light tanks. Immune to fear.

Or you can state the fluff is just legend. The marines turn the tide of battle merely through acts of great bravery and sacrifice. Whatever you chose to do I don't care. This is a fantasy world though. The space marines are the protagonists. I'll never truly understand people who are interested in settings where they don't like the heros of the story. Then again - I really don't like the space wolves much so take that as you take it.

Because you can appreciate the rest of the universe and the story, without particularly liking the protagonists. And in the case of 40k there's at lesat some boosk where SM's are barely present, allowing people who don't care about them to still enjoy the universe without having to deal with their existence.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


40k isn't devoid of logic. It's devoid of OUR logic.

"40K logic" isn't consistent, thus it's not a univers with different sets of rule. One of the biggest example is the fact that Space Marines are supposed to be the elite of the elite, the spear tip of the Imperium capable of cracking the enemy at its strongest point, yet Space Marines aren't better then the best warriors of the enemy and sometimes are downright inferior while being significantly rarer then them. You can't appeal to the logic of a univers when the univers in question isn't consistent with its own premise.

That isn't inconsistent. You have to strike a balance between power and numbers and Marines do that. They're better than almost all the enemies they'll fight that aren't part of a situation so rare it shouldn't be counted as part of the planning.
They could mass produce Custodes instead of Marines but then instead of having several wasted applicants per successful Marine you'd have thousands.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


40k isn't devoid of logic. It's devoid of OUR logic.

"40K logic" isn't consistent, thus it's not a univers with different sets of rule. One of the biggest example is the fact that Space Marines are supposed to be the elite of the elite, the spear tip of the Imperium capable of cracking the enemy at its strongest point, yet Space Marines aren't better then the best warriors of the enemy and sometimes are downright inferior while being significantly rarer then them.

And in other cases, they're absolutely better than the enemy's best.

Sure, there's some canon conflict, which I'm not denying. What my point is, we would all be better off ONLY using logic derived from the actual lore of the game. That may conflict with itself (which is why we discuss it, in order to root out what is more likely to mesh with the wider 40k canon), but it's better than trying to argue real world physics which seem to have absolutely no bearing on 40k, and would be pointless bringing up in a discussion of 40k lore.

You can't appeal to the logic of a univers when the univers in question isn't consistent with its own premise.

No, but you can make discussing things easier in that universe by ONLY using logic derived from that fantasy universe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Because you can appreciate the rest of the universe and the story, without particularly liking the protagonists. And in the case of 40k there's at lesat some boosk where SM's are barely present, allowing people who don't care about them to still enjoy the universe without having to deal with their existence.

No-one's saying you can't do that, but ignoring certain lore about them? Is that really necessary?

If there's nothing in that interest me, why not?

 Bobthehero wrote:
If there's nothing in that interest me, why not?

For the sake of discussion? But sure, if you don't care about Space Marines at all, that's fair.

If you care that little about them, why make comments in a thread about them?

Because they're still part of the universe and I can give my opinion on them.

pm713 wrote:

That isn't inconsistent. You have to strike a balance between power and numbers and Marines do that. They're better than almost all the enemies they'll fight that aren't part of a situation so rare it shouldn't be counted as part of the planning.

Actually every single faction outside of the Imperium (and even then, Custodians are superior while Sisters of Battle and Scions aren't that outclassed by them) has infantry units that are either superior or equivalent to Space Marines in terms of quality. Furthermore, each of these individual infantry units outnumber Space Marines who are, by far, the least numerous faction in the 40K univers with the exception of Custodes and maybe assassins. This makes the entire premise of Space Marines inconsistent. They can't be the elite of the elite; the game changer for the Imperium if they aren't better then their equivalent in other factions all the while being much less numerous then each and every single one of them.

epronovost wrote:

pm713 wrote:

That isn't inconsistent. You have to strike a balance between power and numbers and Marines do that. They're better than almost all the enemies they'll fight that aren't part of a situation so rare it shouldn't be counted as part of the planning.

Actually every single faction outside of the Imperium (and even then, Custodians are superior while Sisters of Battle and Scions aren't that outclassed by them) has infantry units that are either superior or equivalent to Space Marines in terms of quality. Furthermore, each of these individual infantry units outnumber Space Marines who are, by far, the least numerous faction in the 40K univers with the exception of Custodes and maybe assassins. This makes the entire premise of Space Marines inconsistent. They can't be the elite of the elite; the game changer for the Imperium if they aren't better then their equivalent in other factions all the while being much less numerous then each and every single one of them.

You want to give examples of things that are both more numerous and better?

Scions are pretty significantly outclassed by Marines...

epronovost wrote:

pm713 wrote:

That isn't inconsistent. You have to strike a balance between power and numbers and Marines do that. They're better than almost all the enemies they'll fight that aren't part of a situation so rare it shouldn't be counted as part of the planning.

Actually every single faction outside of the Imperium (and even then, Custodians are superior while Sisters of Battle and Scions aren't that outclassed by them) has infantry units that are either superior or equivalent to Space Marines in terms of quality. Furthermore, each of these individual infantry units outnumber Space Marines who are, by far, the least numerous faction in the 40K univers with the exception of Custodes and maybe assassins. This makes the entire premise of Space Marines inconsistent. They can't be the elite of the elite; the game changer for the Imperium if they aren't better then their equivalent in other factions all the while being much less numerous then each and every single one of them.

While sisters are famed yes.

Theres one impact to remember. The citizens of many worlds view them as the very will of thr emparor manifest, his avaneging angels.

There not marines, there the emparors wrath made manifest.

Thr pgycolocial impact to both allies and enemies is hyge. Yes by out logic this is insane. But to the regular citizens this is true.

The sisters also are famed, not thr same but equally the prescense of hospitler order, militant is both loved and feared. They to the citizens are the emapors vengeance and protection.

Logic does not always matter. Its what people belive.

pm713 wrote:

You want to give examples of things that are both more numerous and better?

Crisis Battlesuits, Tyranid Warriors, Lychguard, Castellan Robots (they are supposed to be rare, but I think it's safe to assume there are more then a million of them in the entire galaxy), Triarch Praetorians, Meganobz (or other really well equiped nobz), Grotesque, Harlequins, Immortals (definitely more numerous, might actually more or less equal though, but they are certainly more endurant and have more firepower)

Scions are pretty significantly outclassed by Marines...

Their most recent fluff suggest that while outclassed the strength ratio is something like 3:1 in favor of Marines which is big, but not massive.

epronovost wrote:

pm713 wrote:

You want to give examples of things that are both more numerous and better?

Crisis Battlesuits, Tyranid Warriors, Lychguard, Castellan Robots (they are supposed to be rare, but I think it's safe to assume there are more then a million of them in the entire galaxy), Triarch Praetorians, Meganobz (or other really well equiped nobz), Grotesque, Harlequins, Immortals (definitely more numerous, might actually more or less equal though, but they are certainly more endurant and have more firepower)

Scions are pretty significantly outclassed by Marines...

Their most recent fluff suggest that while outclassed the strength ratio is something like 3:1 in favor of Marines which is big, but not massive.

Harlequins are in no way more numerous than Marines are. Kastellans are stopped by just sniping the controller, Praetorians seem pretty rare as they're the personal servants of the Necrontyrs rulers, Battlesuits aren't more numerous than Marines either, Meganobz aren't that common compared to normal Orks as they're basically the Orks occupying the steps just below a Warboss, Grotesques aren't really better than Marines seeing as they just run at things with cleavers and rely on being big, Tyranid Warriors being seem about equal and are almost never going to solo'd by a Marine force and Immortals don't seem significantly better to me.

pm713 wrote:

Harlequins are in no way more numerous than Marines are.

There is said to be at least a Craftworld equivalent (the Black Library) worth of them. That's probably close to a few billions.

Kastellans are stopped by just sniping the controller

which is a lot easier said then done, when those controllers are hiding right behind the Kastellans and are heavily armored themselves. Plus it doesn't completely stops them, they simply maintain their last instruction which might be something like "kill the Space Marines".

Praetorians seem pretty rare as they're the personal servants of the Necrontyrs rulers

Indeed, but since they are his personnal army and the Necron themselves are numbered in trillions, there are certainly millions if not billions of them in the galaxy.

Battlesuits aren't more numerous than Marines either

A hell of a lot more actually. The Tau have around a hundred world each with tens of billions of inhabitant of which about a quarter are Fire Cast. Even if one in a hundred Tau soldier is a battlesuit pilot (which seems reasonable) that could means over a billion Battlesuits of various design.

Meganobz aren't that common compared to normal Orks as they're basically the Orks occupying the steps just below a Warboss

There is probably more Ork Warboss then Space Marines. Orks occupy almost has many worlds (if not more) as the Imperium itself. There is at minimum one Warboss per planet. The number of Ork Meganobz is probably in the tens of billions simply because of that fact. There is probably about 5-10 meganobz (or really beefy nobz) per warboss afterall.

Grotesques aren't really better than Marines seeing as they just run at things with cleavers and rely on being big

Big enough to snap a Space Marine like a twig and regenerate from horrendous wounds.

Tyranid Warriors being seem about equal and are almost never going to solo'd by a Marine force

If you brush aside the fact that Tyranid warriors are bigger, faster, more heavily armed then the average Space Marines as well as being uterly fearless and still tacticaly very sound, they are indeed fairly equal (the only advantage of Space Marine over them is armor).

and Immortals don't seem significantly better to me.

Immortals are definitely more dangerous in a ranged engagement since they are more resistent and more heavily armed, but worse in melee since they are slower and dumber. That's why I call the contest between those two fairly even, up until the point you consider numbers.

These are all infantry units of various faction that are stronger and more numerous then Space Marines, but let's be really generous. Let's say those who are a little bit stronger are actually equal and those who are clearly stronger less numerous. Now, let's combine their number and show that Space Marines are drowned by infantry better or at least as good as them (in the equal or better, but less numerous, list you could add Aspect Warriors, Incubi, Chaos Space Marines, Raveners which makes their number even more drowned). The worst part is, other infantry aren't quite as good as they are, but still dangerous to them like lesser equipped nobz, genestealer, wytches, stealth suit Tau, etc.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'd say common sense, but okay: can you cite a source from GW that says the rules for their game is treated in the same way as their Black Library and fluff publications?

That's not how this works. You're the one claiming that this hierarchy of sources exists and the rules are intended to be ignored in trying to understand the fluff, you have the burden of proof and need to provide something to back up your claims. You don't get to make a claim about GW's policies and then demand that I prove you wrong.

From that, we can see that being shot in the head is more fatal than being shot in other places, but that people can also walk off some headshots in certain circumstances.

Really? How do we know any of that based only on 40k logic? How do we know that being shot in the head is fatal, and the people being shot in the head aren't simultaneously experiencing a psychic event that kills them when the bullet would have only given them a minor headache? Don't you dare use real-world ideas about causality or simplest explanations or anything like that, because you said we have to ignore real-world logic.

Harlequins travel in very small bands. They don't gather in one place. On two occasions a Craftworld has been attacked and there were very few Harlequins there. They will not outnumber Space Marines unless they're somehow attacking the Black Library.

Kastellans can walk into a chasm so they don't seem like the smartest things and if you can have your Scouts snipe a Farseer you can snipe a tech priest. But it's a moot point because they're on the same side as Marines.

But again they won't be in one place. Orks are the second most or most numerous race in the galaxy but lose all the time. Because they're spread out.

Again Battlesuits are the elites so against Space Marines there's going to be similar amounts at best except for massive fights which Marines don't do alone.

You can be as big as you like but when the Marines have blown your legs to pieces with exploding can sized rockets nobody cares.

Similar sized, to my knowledge they have similar speed and in most fights the Marines will also have defenders advantage and a lot of disposables/Guardsmen to help against Tyranids.

Call that a tie then.

The issue is you're taking all the Marines against all of X in a vacuum. That's not how it works. It's generally going to be a Company (about 100 Marines + officers and armoured support and a supporting space ship) vs the standard of the enemy like a Hunter Cadre.
In larger fights there are much more factors to think about like who has what allies and what position. All these things add up and Marines end up being worthwhile.

pm713 wrote:
Battlesuits aren't more numerous than Marines either

Lolwut. Uh, no, this is not true at all. A standard Tau cadre, a formation roughly equivalent to an IG company (or a 2000 point game) in size, has ~10 crisis suits included. That's the equivalent of every single IG company having an attached tactical squad, a feat that would require orders of magnitude more space marines than the million we know exist. Crisis suits vastly outnumber space marines as a proportion of the faction's total forces, and almost certainly outnumber space marines in total numbers. So if {insert absurdly tiny number here} space marines can magically conquer a planet, and we're obligated to ignore all possible flaws in this theory and accept it without question, then the Tau have an even greater ability to conquer planets with tiny forces and we should see the Tau effortlessly expanding their empire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
The issue is you're taking all the Marines against all of X in a vacuum. That's not how it works. It's generally going to be a Company (about 100 Marines + officers and armoured support and a supporting space ship) vs the standard of the enemy like a Hunter Cadre.

Ah yes, more space marine fanboy handwaving where we assume that space marines magically get to dictate the terms of every engagement and bring superior forces because space marines can never fail. They of course never do something like attempting a drop pod assault into a Tau AA network, lose 90% of their pods before they even hit the ground, and have the few survivors gunned down by dozens of cadres converging on their position.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=space+marine+intro+game&&view=detail&mid=B7E12C2BC8C21FA1A805B7E12C2BC8C21FA1A805&rvsmid=F0DE4AB8CB190CFC6580F0DE4AB8CB190CFC6580&FORM=VDQVAP

3 marines turning the tide in a massive planetary invasion. Damn that pesky lore.

@pm713

every single mention of you saying "Marines don't fight them alone" can be countered by the similar X unit won't fight Space Marine alone. Space Marines don't all fight in one place. in fact, it's a rare thing for them to deploy at Chapter strength on any given battle. They usually operate in battlegroups or Company. Sometime, just a few squads like a half-company. You seem to be building a shroedinger Marine that are both dispersed and concentrated in tens of thousand strong armies at the same time. Of course there are few Nobz compared to boyz, but there are well enough of them to outnumber Space Marines on any given battlefield by an order of magnitude. If Space Marine are a speartip, then other units, sometime much better then them and more numerous on the galactic scale will do the same job. Space Marine can't counter them efficiently. Space Marines are even beaten at their own game by some of them.

/serious

The day T'au will discover Kung Fu and fit power swords on their battlesuits in addition to all the weapons, Space Marines are dead in the water.

/joke

Tau are really powerful but they can't match the imperium for battle fleets. You don't compare crisis suits to space marines anyways. You compare them to dreads or storm talons or something.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tau are really powerful but they can't match the imperium for battle fleets. You don't compare crisis suits to space marines anyways. You compare them to dreads or storm talons or something.

Why not? Crisis suits fill a similar elite infantry role, while dreads/aircraft/etc have much closer equivalents in Tau tanks and aircraft. The only reason not to make the comparison is because it makes space marines look bad.

 Peregrine wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Battlesuits aren't more numerous than Marines either

Lolwut. Uh, no, this is not true at all. A standard Tau cadre, a formation roughly equivalent to an IG company (or a 2000 point game) in size, has ~10 crisis suits included. That's the equivalent of every single IG company having an attached tactical squad, a feat that would require orders of magnitude more space marines than the million we know exist. Crisis suits vastly outnumber space marines as a proportion of the faction's total forces, and almost certainly outnumber space marines in total numbers. So if {insert absurdly tiny number here} space marines can magically conquer a planet, and we're obligated to ignore all possible flaws in this theory and accept it without question, then the Tau have an even greater ability to conquer planets with tiny forces and we should see the Tau effortlessly expanding their empire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
The issue is you're taking all the Marines against all of X in a vacuum. That's not how it works. It's generally going to be a Company (about 100 Marines + officers and armoured support and a supporting space ship) vs the standard of the enemy like a Hunter Cadre.

Ah yes, more space marine fanboy handwaving where we assume that space marines magically get to dictate the terms of every engagement and bring superior forces because space marines can never fail. They of course never do something like attempting a drop pod assault into a Tau AA network, lose 90% of their pods before they even hit the ground, and have the few survivors gunned down by dozens of cadres converging on their position.

Ah yes my rabid fanboying. You can really see the bias here.....

So basically it takes 10 cadres to be in one place to match the Marines number. In other words in most engagements Marines will have the numbers advantage because surprisingly the army that does almost solely drop pod assaults, ambushes and similar attacks can dictate when to attack.

Okay Peregrine if you want to ignore the lore for your own fan universe that's fine. Genuinely fine, I do it with Necrons but you can't bring it up as an argument for the lore. The Tau aren't going to destroy 90% of a Drop Pod assault, they take minutes at most and are canonically hard to target so they do make it to the ground most of the time. So what will normally happen is that a cadre will find their base/isolated element/recent victim of bombardment is being attacked by 100 Marines and in the time it takes for the other cadres that aren't there to mobilise the Marines will be in the thick of it, leaving or already gone.

Although, TBH, comparing crisis suits to dreads and attack aircraft makes space marines look pretty bad as well. What does it say that a common heavy infantry unit, fielded in large numbers and easily replaced, is comparable to a priceless relic vehicle carrying one of the chapter's greatest fallen heroes.

epronovost wrote:
@pm713

every single mention of you saying "Marines don't fight them alone" can be countered by the similar X unit won't fight Space Marine alone. Space Marines don't all fight in one place. in fact, it's a rare thing for them to deploy at Chapter strength on any given battle. They usually operate in battlegroups or Company. Sometime, just a few squads like a half-company. You seem to be building a shroedinger Marine that are both dispersed and concentrated in tens of thousand strong armies at the same time. Of course there are few Nobz compared to boyz, but there are well enough of them to outnumber Space Marines on any given battlefield by an order of magnitude. If Space Marine are a speartip, then other units, sometime much better then them and more numerous on the galactic scale will do the same job. Space Marine can't counter them efficiently. Space Marines are even beaten at their own game by some of them.

/serious

The day T'au will discover Kung Fu and fit power swords on their battlesuits in addition to all the weapons, Space Marines are dead in the water.

/joke

Most Marine fights are going to be Company level and such but if they're fighting a Tyranid Swarm, mass Necron uprising or a massive WAAAGGH where they lose their number/skill advantage they won't be stupidly charging alone at things, they'll join an Imperial Guard army, harass the enemy or something similar.
I'm thinking of an army that will only attack when there's appropriate forces around. I'm aware that sometimes that won't be the case and in those cases things will go poorly but they can dictate the terms of their fight enough of the time that that makes them better than their enemy.
For example the Nobz, there might be more Nobz than Marines in a single fight but Marines can use bombardments, snipers, ambushes and such in most of their engagements to deal with them in advance and when they can't they can deal with the overall army with increased damage that Marines heal from because they are insanely durable overall.

pm713 wrote:
So basically it takes 10 cadres to be in one place to match the Marines number.

No, it takes 10 cadres to overwhelm the marines with both quality and quantity and mercilessly gun them down.

In other words in most engagements Marines will have the numbers advantage because surprisingly the army that does almost solely drop pod assaults, ambushes and similar attacks can dictate when to attack.

So yes, apparently you are going to just handwave it and declare that space marines magically get to dictate the terms of engagement, have perfect intelligence on their targets, and never find their drop pod assault/ambush/etc counter-ambushed by a prepared enemy.

The Tau aren't going to destroy 90% of a Drop Pod assault, they take minutes at most and are canonically hard to target so they do make it to the ground most of the time.

{citation needed}

We could shoot down incoming ICBMs with direct contact hits using 1950s SAMs, and demonstrated that capability in live-fire testing. I find it extremely hard to believe that a much larger and slower drop pod is an impossible target for a faction with technology way beyond what we have 60+ years later. The reputation drop pods have as being "impossible to shoot down" is entirely the result of them being used against much less sophisticated enemies armed with WWII-era manually aimed AA guns. But the Tau are not that enemy.

So what will normally happen is that a cadre will find their base/isolated element/recent victim of bombardment is being attacked by 100 Marines and in the time it takes for the other cadres that aren't there to mobilise the Marines will be in the thick of it, leaving or already gone.

Because, again, we're just going to handwave away the possibility of the space marines being wrong and dropping against an "isolated element" that is actually a strong target ready to deliver a fatal counter-attack. It must be so easy to win when your side magically only has to fight the weakest possible targets. But that just raises the question of why space marines exist at all, if they're only used to overwhelm the weakest targets that can't fight back effectively?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
For example the Nobz, there might be more Nobz than Marines in a single fight but Marines can use bombardments, snipers, ambushes and such in most of their engagements to deal with them in advance and when they can't they can deal with the overall army with increased damage that Marines heal from because they are insanely durable overall.

But why don't the nobz get to use bombardments, snipers (the orks with BS 4+), ambushes, etc? Why are the space marines allowed to use all of their tools while their enemies are magically limited to standing there passively waiting to be killed by the glorious space marine heroes?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tau are really powerful but they can't match the imperium for battle fleets. You don't compare crisis suits to space marines anyways. You compare them to dreads or storm talons or something.

I would compare dreads to Ghost Keel who are of similar size or Riptides if you go for the bigger, badder dreads. As for Storm Talon, Tau have their own aircrafts too.