Why Do Marines Matter?

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**Martel732**

Again, concept of "home fleet".

**BrianDavion**

Martel732 wrote:
I can't help it. They don't get to redefine every aspect of reality. Scale is scale. Stars have the mass they have as do their satellites. Uninhabitable rocky worlds would be completely converted to refined product. Especially on their time scale. There would be the capacity to create trillions of suits of powee armor, regardless of their opinion.

So baaaasicly you're willing to accept a setting where people can shoot "mind bullets" one where FTL travel is possiable, by moving through hell, a setting where deamons physicly exist, a setting where chainsaws are valid melee weapons, where TYRANIDS EXIST (there are numerous things about that race that simply don't work if you apply physics to them) and god knows how many other examples of 40k taking physics out behind the woodshed...
all that exists but the stopping point for you is that somethings are built by hand instead of mass produced? really?!

**Formosa**

Martel732 wrote:
I can't help it. They don't get to redefine every aspect of reality. Scale is scale. Stars have the mass they have as do their satellites. Uninhabitable rocky worlds would be completely converted to refined product. Especially on their time scale. There would be the capacity to create trillions of suits of powee armor, regardless of their opinion.

that is assuming that they want to and there is no decree disallowing it, like rhinos and land raiders, the guard do not get those for fluff reasons, also even in a galaxy of resources that does not mean that certain ones are not very hard to find or rare, for all we know the key part for power armour is unobtanium 54 and only found in tiny quantities (relatively), even in hard sci fi universes rarity is still a thing.

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
Again, concept of "home fleet".

Concept of surprise or brute force.

Conversely, give a source for the existence or readiness of this "home fleet".

It doesn't matter, because the thing happened as it happened.

**Melissia**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The closest games I can think of which actually come closest to 40k lore are probably Space Marine

Amusingly, Space Marine got complaints from people about how the captain died too easily. I think the dev team did a good job in trying to balance both the lethality of Orks and Chaos Marines with the skill of a captain who was a veteran of a thosuand battles.

**Martel732**

BrianDavion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I can't help it. They don't get to redefine every aspect of reality. Scale is scale. Stars have the mass they have as do their satellites. Uninhabitable rocky worlds would be completely converted to refined product. Especially on their time scale. There would be the capacity to create trillions of suits of powee armor, regardless of their opinion.

So baaaasicly you're willing to accept a setting where people can shoot "mind bullets" one where FTL travel is possiable, by moving through hell, a setting where deamons physicly exist, a setting where chainsaws are valid melee weapons, where TYRANIDS EXIST (there are numerous things about that race that simply don't work if you apply physics to them) and god knows how many other examples of 40k taking physics out behind the woodshed...
all that exists but the stopping point for you is that somethings are built by hand instead of mass produced? really?!

Not really. The warp is a dumb deus ex machina and i don't enjoy any references to it. Demons are stupid by extension. Tyranid fluff needs massive modification as well.

The production fallacy is a stopping point, not the stopping point.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Formosa wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I can't help it. They don't get to redefine every aspect of reality. Scale is scale. Stars have the mass they have as do their satellites. Uninhabitable rocky worlds would be completely converted to refined product. Especially on their time scale. There would be the capacity to create trillions of suits of powee armor, regardless of their opinion.

that is assuming that they want to and there is no decree disallowing it, like rhinos and land raiders, the guard do not get those for fluff reasons, also even in a galaxy of resources that does not mean that certain ones are not very hard to find or rare, for all we know the key part for power armour is unobtanium 54 and only found in tiny quantities (relatively), even in hard sci fi universes rarity is still a thing.

Forgeworlds would use particle accelerators to create any stable scarce element. There is no rarity when plabets dedicated to production exist. You can have millions of accelerators on a planet and more in orbit if necessary.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Again, concept of "home fleet".

Concept of surprise or brute force.

Conversely, give a source for the existence or readiness of this "home fleet".

It doesn't matter, because the thing happened as it happened.

But it does matter because credibility is a thing.

**epronovost**

Double post

**Insectum7**

Martel: "Pearl Harbor couldn't have happened because 'home fleet' advantage."

**Martel732**

Pearl harbor was likely allowed to happen.

Taranto is a better example.

Still, its a naval concept that exists independently of 40k. I find it implauble that the imperium ever gets the drop on superior tech races. Home planets of eldar would likely be guarded constantly.

Too much is asking me to accept that everyone in the galaxy is an idiot. Maybe because its written by idiots? I don't know.

**epronovost**

Formosa wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Shadenuat wrote:
I gotta give it to the Tau, Alaitoc (and a few other Craftworlds wiped by Marines) couldn't even handle a single marine Chapter, not three.

1000 guys took on a craftWORLD? This is why I can't take bolter porn seriously.

I am willing to be there is more to it that just a thousand marines taking the craftworld, circumstances likely matter, any other forces present etc.

You are right, the Eldars had to fight waves after waves of Elisean guardsmen and Titans before the Space Marines arrived and broke their overstreched lines and even then, they did muster a counter attack in which Aspect Warriors were roughly equivalent ot Space Marines and in which a young Farseer kills the chief Librarian in duel showing that indeed Space Marines and Eldars are comparable in combat, but that the enemy was so numerous they could be all the same place. The only very dubious thing is that the entire battle seems to have been very, very short like a day long instead of a campaign lasting days of not weeks.

**Melissia**

Martel732 wrote:
Pearl harbor was likely allowed to happen.

I... do not have the energy or will to unpack this. Suffice it to say, paranoid conspiracy theories do not make historical facts.

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
Pearl harbor was likely allowed to happen.

Taranto is a better example.

Still, its a naval concept that exists independently of 40k. I find it implauble that the imperium ever gets the drop on superior tech races. Home planets of eldar would likely be guarded constantly.

Too much is asking me to accept that everyone in the galaxy is an idiot. Maybe because its written by idiots? I don't know.

Martel: "Craftworld X was an inside job!"

Perhaps the writers are idiots, or perhaps you're simply refusing to fill in the blanks necessary to reconcile the lore.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Melissia wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The closest games I can think of which actually come closest to 40k lore are probably Space Marine

Amusingly, Space Marine got complaints from people about how the captain died too easily.

Really?

Maybe on the hardest difficult, but on normal and easy, he felt just fine. Every time I think he acted slow, I also thought about the guardsmen in that game, and how Titus breezes past them, and it all feels better.

Bolters feel sufficiently powerful against guardsmen (like, two bolter rounds turn them to mush), which only makes Orks feel so much more strong in comparison.

I think the dev team did a good job in trying to balance both the lethality of Orks and Chaos Marines with the skill of a captain who was a veteran of a thosuand battles.

Agreed. The guardsmen get overwhelmed by handfuls of Orks, but Titus alone is enough to break entire hordes. If I were to show off my favourite film/video game depiction of a Space Marine, Space Marine probably takes the cake for me.

**Martel732**

Melissia wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Pearl harbor was likely allowed to happen.
I... do not have the energy or will to unpack this. Suffice it to say, paranoid conspiracy theories do not make historical facts.

It's not paranoid and i offered a legit sneak attack, so it doesnt matter. It was a smart move. I would have allowed it as well.

**Melissia**

At the same time, if Titus allowed himself to get grabbed by a Nob, it could be over for him right then and there. They were a SEVERE threat to him-- and they should have been.

**epronovost**

Formosa wrote:

It was not a single hunter cadre, we are just told about a single hunter cadre moving in to retake the governors palace, they were clearly reinforced as time went on especially as they directly stated it, also you all keep ignoring the MANTA that was there too.

"The first the Avenging Sons knew of any Tau forces on Taros was the arrival of the Manta over the night-darkened city. Soon, Hammerhead gunships followed by XV8 Crisis Battlesuits and Devilfish-mounted Fire Warriors would be closing in on blocking position three. An entire Hunter Cadre was bearing down on the Space Mannes, moving at speed to reinforce the Governor's Palace."

" Barracudas raced low over Tarokeen to launch missiles in the Governor’s palace."

"The Tau had used the night-time full to reinforce their mauled Hunter Cadre"

So the attack was a Manta carrying a hunter cadre backed by baracudas, later reinforced with an unknown number of hunter cadres and forces against a company of marines with no heavy support elements in a reinforced position, the marines were ambushed and faced overwhelming firepower and were heavily outnumbered and still mauled the Tau....

Everything I stated is right there in the book and for some reason people are either not going to read the story or are just trusting what others are saying when they argue, the map of the palace is there, the estimated forces of the Tau are there, the overarching story of the battle is there.

anyway, for everyone to read for themselves.

From the first Taros intervention.

Spoiler:

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Taros_Campaign

**Martel732**

Why is the iom wasting their time with eldar anyway?

**Sgt_Smudge**

Melissia wrote:
At the same time, if Titus allowed himself to get grabbed by a Nob, it could be over for him right then and there. They were a SEVERE threat to him-- and they should have been.

Depends which type. Your unit leader Nob, and I suppose even the regular Nob units (in game and lore, not Space Marine) I think should be inferior to a Space Marine, whereas your Boss Nobs (the 'Ard Nob, like the one that appears in the sewers in Act 2) should be an equal match for a Space Marine.

I did like how in Space Marine, it felt like Titus was just as durable as Leandros and Sidonus, only more experienced and skilled. I'm not personally a fan of HQ choices getting more wounds "just because", but I understand as a gameplay mechanic, it's there.

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
Why is the iom wasting their time with eldar anyway?

Because they're d***s

Edit:
Both parties.

**Formosa**

epronovost wrote:
Formosa wrote:

It was not a single hunter cadre, we are just told about a single hunter cadre moving in to retake the governors palace, they were clearly reinforced as time went on especially as they directly stated it, also you all keep ignoring the MANTA that was there too.

"The first the Avenging Sons knew of any Tau forces on Taros was the arrival of the Manta over the night-darkened city. Soon, Hammerhead gunships followed by XV8 Crisis Battlesuits and Devilfish-mounted Fire Warriors would be closing in on blocking position three. An entire Hunter Cadre was bearing down on the Space Mannes, moving at speed to reinforce the Governor's Palace."

" Barracudas raced low over Tarokeen to launch missiles in the Governor’s palace."

"The Tau had used the night-time full to reinforce their mauled Hunter Cadre"

So the attack was a Manta carrying a hunter cadre backed by baracudas, later reinforced with an unknown number of hunter cadres and forces against a company of marines with no heavy support elements in a reinforced position, the marines were ambushed and faced overwhelming firepower and were heavily outnumbered and still mauled the Tau....

Everything I stated is right there in the book and for some reason people are either not going to read the story or are just trusting what others are saying when they argue, the map of the palace is there, the estimated forces of the Tau are there, the overarching story of the battle is there.

anyway, for everyone to read for themselves.

From the first Taros intervention.

Spoiler:

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Taros_Campaign

You forgot to mention the five Thunderhawk the Space Marines had to conduct a massive bombing run and the fact a Manta cannot transport more then 195 Tau fire warriors in addition to a maximum of two hammerhead and two devilfish as well as 8 battlesuits. That's the maximal size of the force that attacked the Space Marines on the first day and still caused heavy casualties namely two dead tactical squads if I'm not mistaken. I doubt the reinforcement were that much more numerous considering they had to be ferried by the same Manta. Note that the total transport capacity of a Manta exceed the size of a single Hunter Cadre which means it's completely possible for the Tau to have had no other reinfocement then the rest of the troops on board of the same Manta who were kept in reserve for a grand total of about 200 Tau vs 100 Space Marines. In all other instences, the lore respected the quantity of troops a single vehicle can transport, I don't see why it wouldn't be the case here.

**BrianDavion**

Melissia wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Pearl harbor was likely allowed to happen.
I... do not have the energy or will to unpack this. Suffice it to say, paranoid conspiracy theories do not make historical facts.

I've heard this theory too although a lot of the evidance can also be written off as the Americans simply being complacient.

A high school history teacher I had suggested that the Americans where expecting an attack on the Phillipeans instead.

**jhe90**

BrianDavion wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Pearl harbor was likely allowed to happen.
I... do not have the energy or will to unpack this. Suffice it to say, paranoid conspiracy theories do not make historical facts.

I've heard this theory too although a lot of the evidance can also be written off as the Americans simply being complacient.

A high school history teacher I had suggested that the Americans where expecting an attack on the Phillipeans instead.

Not to detail but complacent. Pearl was well in the far extent of japanse range, the fleet would be thousands of miles from home with little spare if they where forced into a fight any substantial battle phase.

Likely thry run out before home if then of thry did.
They where really pushing the envelope to the limit attacking pearl.

Us got caught napping.

Japan where extremely daring.

Anyone even the most powerful regardless of anything and ahyehere, real or fluff can be caught sitting on lourrels.

**Galas**

I come a little late for the tangent about the Eldar Craftworld but it was funny because one GW author... was it Phil Kelly? When asked about how Eldar, being such a "dying race" are always dying like red-shirts in nearly every piece of fluff, and sustaining heavy lose after heavy lose, are still capable of fighting.

And his response was literally "Theres as much Eldar as the writter wants them to be".

And thats basically the whole underlying philosophy of all GW's writting.

**Melissia**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Melissia wrote:
At the same time, if Titus allowed himself to get grabbed by a Nob, it could be over for him right then and there. They were a SEVERE threat to him-- and they should have been.
Depends which type. Your unit leader Nob, and I suppose even the regular Nob units (in game and lore, not Space Marine) I think should be inferior to a Space Marine

A bit slower perhaps, but certainly far stronger physically. A basic Ork Boy is just as physically durable as a Space Marine outside of armor, and even your "basic" Nob is far, FAR more durable than that. The main advantage that the Marines would have over a Nob is discipline and training, and of course equipment quality.

I will accept that "nob" is a very vague concept in Orky Kultur. It's just the guy in charge of a mob of boyz. But generally for an Ork, being in charge also makes you large, and being large also makes you in charge. An Ork that is "bigga" literally becomes bigger; the Nobz of the Orks are a cut above the rest by definition, and "bigga is betta" is a self-fulfilling prophecy for Orks.

**Shadenuat**

Galas wrote:
And his response was literally "Theres as much Eldar as the writter wants them to be".

I think he did admit though that 12 inch Shuriken Catapults were a mistake from the start.

As for Alaitoc and Eldar "Pearl Harboured", of course Eldar knew enemies are coming - that's what Seer Council is for - they divine the future of the Craftworld constantly and pick the best outcome. If I remember right, they even knew they *had* to fight - to reveal during a fight some truth to Imperial commander so Imperium would cease agression. I admit that while I do read Thorpe, I don't pay massive attention to every water filled page of his. It's the same book where Dreadnought killed Karandras and protagonist had to jump into dead Phoenix Lord to power him up.

There are also other examples of fallen Craftworlds ofc (like during Great Crusade) which are usually "small and unknown" and are killed when spehhs marines come.

It did amuse me though that they thrown so many Marine chapters on Tau, but for a Craftworld was one enough. Also this bit was amusing to me:

“Space Marines, tanks, countless soldiers, how can we fight against such things?” asked Arhulesh.

Space Marines, you see... oh and those other dudes, those we can deal with.

**Martel732**

" - they divine the future of the Craftworld constantly and pick the best outcome. If I remember right, they even knew they *had* to fight - to reveal during a fight some truth to Imperial commander so Imperium would cease agression"

Okay, that's not bad reasoning. Still, why would IoM waste resources on Eldar? And don't marines against the faction with starcannons. Probaby more starcannons then you have marines

**Shadenuat**

I think some random outcast Corsairs did some dumb gak to IoM but I don't remember entirely. (The Eldar are always their own worst enemy, obviously)

**Formosa**

Eldar divination is not perfect, far from it, it can also be interfered with or outright blocked if chaos gets involved, so in the example above its just as likely that they simply did not see it coming, divination is as much about interpretation as it is finding the right threads (at least according to eldrad and ahirman) to follow, there could be the problem of counter divination too, for all we know marines hitting that craftworld at that time was when it was at its most vunerable..... Just as planned cackles tzeench.

**BrianDavion**

Martel732 wrote:
" - they divine the future of the Craftworld constantly and pick the best outcome. If I remember right, they even knew they *had* to fight - to reveal during a fight some truth to Imperial commander so Imperium would cease agression"

Okay, that's not bad reasoning. Still, why would IoM waste resources on Eldar? And don't marines against the faction with starcannons. Probaby more starcannons then you have marines

you seem to think that Eldar if left alone won't do anything bad to humanity, which is.... inaccurate. the eladr have their own agenda and will happily screw over humanity.

**Martel732**

BrianDavion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
" - they divine the future of the Craftworld constantly and pick the best outcome. If I remember right, they even knew they *had* to fight - to reveal during a fight some truth to Imperial commander so Imperium would cease agression"

Okay, that's not bad reasoning. Still, why would IoM waste resources on Eldar? And don't marines against the faction with starcannons. Probaby more starcannons then you have marines

you seem to think that Eldar if left alone won't do anything bad to humanity, which is.... inaccurate. the eladr have their own agenda and will happily screw over humanity.

As bad as the Tyranids? Didn't think so. It's called target priority and the IoM doesn't have any. Because everyone in 40K is an idiot by necessity for their plots.

At a minimum, send your mooks against the race with guns that treat everything like a gretchin.