Would you accept a diversity reboot of the Primarchs

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**ph34r**

The Emperor is from Anatolia, and his Primarchs are created with his own genetic material. As a result, whatever genetic variation takes place, they are starting from a place of Anatolian geneology, and will gravitate towards such an appearance due to having such a genetic makeup.

**Peregrine**

ph34r wrote:
The Emperor is from Anatolia, and his Primarchs are created with his own genetic material. As a result, whatever genetic variation takes place, they are starting from a place of Anatolian geneology, and will gravitate towards such an appearance due to having such a genetic makeup.

This seems like a rather odd point of view given that none of the primarchs gravitated towards Anatolian traits in any other way, such as not having superhuman strength or psychic abilities or whatever.

**CadianGateTroll**

Lmfaos, lets have a male feminist primarch!

**cody.d.**

I dunno, changing things just for the sake of being inclusive seems to more damage than good. Especially if the groups being pandered to realize they're being babied for the sake of them feeling included. Like if a black dude was told that he was given the job he has not because of his skills, intelligence and capability but because there was a quota they wanted to fulfill.

On the flip side, bringing in new things to represent said groups can also come back to bite you. By either not having the traits those groups consider part of their identity or by exaggerating them or having them considered exaggerated to the point of offensiveness.

Then you have other ethnicities. Are Asians represented in 40k? Well, the obvious answer is Tau, but that could be considered offensive due, same with some of the Mongolian iconography with White Scars. There may be no easy answer to the issue. But we do have 2 primarchs missing who can be themed after literally anything and could be brought back into the fluff well.

**Grimskul**

Ouze wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Ouze wrote:
Why would we consider Vulkan to be black? GW explicitly retconned this to make that not the case. He has coal black skin. That doesn't represent, generally speaking, anyone on earth. Why are you handwaving it it away, other than that it hurts your arguments?

Right, the guy with black skin doesn't count as black because he isn't "real" black. Does Corax not count as a white primarch because his skin color (pale, alabaster white) is also a genetic mutation that does not represent, generally speaking, anyone on earth?

Does Corax have Albinism? Because if that's the case, he doesn't really have any skin color, period. So no, not white, as in caucasian.

I would accept that (current) Vulkan is a racist little-black-sambo-style representation, though. That would create issues of its own though of course. So that can't possibly be true, either.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimskul wrote:
I don't think it'll honestly add anything other than lip-service and virtue signalling that the company is being "more progressive".

Voting for the current status quo is virtue signaling all its own. Don't pretend it isn't.

Virtue signalling for what? I don't see how it works both ways. I'm fine with changes IF it's meaningful and tastefully done. One example of which I'm fine with is how they've fleshed out how the Lion was never sitting on the fence, as well as how the Khan decided to join the loyalists. On the other hand, I'm not a fan with how they handled Perpetuals and particularly Ollanius Pius so far. Unless you're supremely upset with the current setting regarding Primarchs and the HH (which to be fair, it has been milked pretty strongly) I don't see how adding racial diversity would fix any of that. The story would still be fundamentally based upon demigods being prone to the pettiness and failings of mortals, and given the fact that BL writing varies strongly from author to author, you get your hits and misses.

**cody.d.**

Oh, also you could argue that Lorgar has a few Muslim vibes going on. Golden skin, religious fervor, scholar, grew up in a sandy local. I mean, the comparisons are there.

**Grimskul**

cody.d. wrote:
I dunno, changing things just for the sake of being inclusive seems to more damage than good. Especially if the groups being pandered to realize they're being babied for the sake of them feeling included. Like if a black dude was told that he was given the job he has not because of his skills, intelligence and capability but because there was a quota they wanted to fulfill.

On the flip side, bringing in new things to represent said groups can also come back to bite you. By either not having the traits those groups consider part of their identity or by exaggerating them or having them considered exaggerated to the point of offensiveness.

Then you have other ethnicities. Are Asians represented in 40k? Well, the obvious answer is Tau, but that could be considered offensive due, same with some of the Mongolian iconography with White Scars. There may be no easy answer to the issue. But we do have 2 primarchs missing who can be themed after literally anything and could be brought back into the fluff well.

Agreed. And the best part is that often times its not the races that are underrepresented that push for this kind of treatment but others that supposedly do it on their behalf. Like, I'm Chinese, but I don't expect to be catered to and have an explicitly Chinese Primarch or Space Marine Chapter or even general faction. I'm more drawn to the Black Templars and Orks which don't have anything to do with it.

The fundamental part is to make something interesting to begin with, like character, theme and plot, and then add the relevant secondary details like race or sexuality. It's why when you cast actors for a role you don't just say "be black/white/asian", there's something more to a character than just that as a defining trait.

**epronovost**

CadianGateTroll wrote:
Lmfaos, lets have a male feminist primarch!

Isn't Guilliman something like that or even Angron (before he went completely insane of course)?

**Peregrine**

Grimskul wrote:
The fundamental part is to make something interesting to begin with, like character, theme and plot, and then add the relevant secondary details like race or sexuality.

And yet somehow when those secondary details are finally considered the answer is almost always "straight white man".

**cody.d.**

And yet somehow when those secondary details are finally considered the answer is almost always "straight white man".

Hell you could say that about a lot of content creators themselves. Personally i'm not in any of those areas so I can't tell you if it's because of discrimination or because those are the types of humans that are interested in that industry.

**Beersarius Drawl**

I believe people are getting caught up in semantics.

It does not matter if Vulkan represents Black people the point is he does not represent straight White people.

Same goes for Kahn, and Magnus.

OP question is about diversity and I argue they are already Diverse.

Also they have 20 differing backstories with Rowboat Girlyman being the only straight white, privilege lauding male, of the entire bunch.

**BrianDavion**

Jimsolo wrote:
Absolutely, 100%.

A Primarch reboot would tickle me pink. Gay, straight, ace, and pan. Primarchs who are non-white, but from strong non-white cultures. Masc, fem, enby, and trans. All of it. The more the merrier.

The sexuality, gender identity, and ethnicities of the primarchs aren't their defining character traits. They aren't even relevant character traits. Shoot, added diversity would potentially enhance the core character traits of some of the primarchs.

I would love to see a 'Second Primarch Project:' Corax comes back, and he, Gulliman, and Cawl team up to try to recreate the original primarch project, but to do it 'right' this time. They scour the stars for genetic and spiritual material from their fallen brethren and 'reincarnate' all of them. Roboute or Corax even sacrificing their own life in the process. (Probably Corax.)

Primarchs get scattered (again) and have to be tracked down (again). Only when they're found, they aren't from predominantly white European cultures.

That would be enormously fun.

EDIT: Alternately, an alternative product line. Marvel's 'Ultimates' titles did well enough, and Star Wars has ran multiple different continuities. The massive interest people had in 'alternative Heresy' settings over the years indicates the idea has some gas. Keep the legions similar enough to be recognized, but increase the diversity of the primarch characters and the cultures they come from. I'd play the heck out of that.

Marvel's ultimates was canceled for a reason. and SW has NEVER "multiple differant continualities" they've done prequals etc, but everything was part of one contiiuality, unless you're trying to argue reprinting old legends novels counts

**Lance845**

I am all for it. The sheer volume of rage would be the funniest thing I have seen in a long time.

**Peregrine**

BrianDavion wrote:
and SW has NEVER "multiple differant continualities"

Err, no. Star Wars has always had multiple different continuities. The "main" EU novels tried to maintain some consistency but the various comic books/video game stories/etc did their own thing, freely contradicting other material in the process, even if they were not explicitly stated to be a comic book style alternate universe. And that's not even considering Disney's complete reboot of the setting, throwing out all of the pre-Disney material and making an entirely new version of the story.

**Argive**

w1zard wrote:
Ouze wrote:
I would accept that (current) Vulkan is a racist sambo representation, though.

If you seriously think that Vulkan's characterization in the lore is anywhere close to a racist sambo representation then you have no idea what that actually means.

Argive wrote:
Cant miss somethings that's not really there.
There is no logical rationale for this proposed change.

You don't really have strong reading skills do you? I was arguing against it.

Dude you were literly doing some sort of bi-polar monolgue trying to be on both sides of the fence.. I dont rrally know what the heck you were arguing and if any of it was meant as sarcastic. Seemed to me like you were advocating in support of the OP idea. Maybe my reading skills arent goody and yours are much better and i should have got what you meant... we cant all be awesome like you. Taking some time to think I think having a new primarch emerging as a woke short pink-haired young sassy chick(insert ethnic background) that can beat up things 10 times her size and stand up to the big E telling him he can shove it would be funny. Imagine if it got an amazin ruleset

**THE_LIST_MASTER**

I would accept some amount of ethnicity changes only because it would improve the lore a bit. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the Emperor's Space Marines and Primarchs to be so different from the humanity they are supposed to be mutated/evolved/derived from. Now that doesn't necessarily mean a lot Primarchs need to change ethnicity, the two "forgotten" Primarchs could help cover more ethnicities. All GW has to do is say, "There were actually another 4 Primarchs that rebelled against the Emperor early in the Crusade, they were REALLY forgotten though. And they weren't white btw." Then maybe only 1 or 2 of the current Primarchs need to be retconned to make everything make sense.

**ph34r**

Peregrine wrote:
ph34r wrote:
The Emperor is from Anatolia, and his Primarchs are created with his own genetic material. As a result, whatever genetic variation takes place, they are starting from a place of Anatolian geneology, and will gravitate towards such an appearance due to having such a genetic makeup.

This seems like a rather odd point of view given that none of the primarchs gravitated towards Anatolian traits in any other way, such as not having superhuman strength or psychic abilities or whatever.

Geneology on Earth does tend to affect what you look like, rather than if you have superhuman strength or not.

Please correct me if you think different groups on Earth have significantly different innate strength more so than different phenotype/appearance.

So, the Emperor's genetics come from Anatolia, which according to History and Facts and stuff progresses into Indian and later East Asian in one direction, and into European in the other direction.

**BrianDavion**

Peregrine wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
and SW has NEVER "multiple differant continualities"

Err, no. Star Wars has always had multiple different continuities. The "main" EU novels tried to maintain some consistency but the various comic books/video game stories/etc did their own thing, freely contradicting other material in the process, even if they were not explicitly stated to be a comic book style alternate universe. And that's not even considering Disney's complete reboot of the setting, throwing out all of the pre-Disney material and making an entirely new version of the story.

there is a differance between tons of retcons and the like and a differant continuality. prior to disney everything in SW was considered to be part of the same continuality, with a few exceptions that are basicly "what if" comics.

**ph34r**

The only "probably not actually canon star wars" things were goofy animated tv series and comics, Christmas specials, etc.

**Gordon Shumway**

Who was to say they weren't "cannon". The Ewok movie sure seemed canon when I watched it.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Even though I voted yes the notion of a totalitarian fascist superstate being build up through total war and oppression by 17 white males is actually pretty political already (or has historical roots). I guess it's a question of how the Imperium should be seen. A diverse representation of the primarchs would have the notion of "yeah, for most people the Imperium sucks and life is worthless, but at least they don't care about your gender or ethnicity". Which, fluffwize, seems
to be the case, but still the vast majority of imperial leadership are white males which hints at inequality.

Another problem of making the primarchs diverse is that they could become even more cliché-ridden like Khan and Russ are already. Like, if Fulgrim ended up as the only female. Guilliman would be italian with a french accent. Stuff like that. Not sure if that's a bad thing since 40K is more of a parody of popular tropes anyway.

**Rob Lee**

Insectum7 wrote:
I am generally against the changing/retconning a mythology for socio-political reasons.

I'd also note that there wouldn't be any potential issue if the primarchs had remained more of a mystery.

Also, the primarchs ARE diverse. The diversity just isn't skin color or gender, but their entire purpose in the lore seems to be different representations of martial personality/leadership. In a sense, they are diverse in deeper ways that matter to the story rather than diverse in a more fundamentally superficial way.

Ehh, that's going to be controversial, but that's my take about it at the moment.

Totally agree. Companies today largely only do things, like for example making Captain Marvel a woman, or Spiderman of African ethnicity, or making blatant socio-political statements in films (Last Jedi anyone?) in fear of the current trend of backlash by a minority, mostly on social media, and perceived loss of income if they don't start excessively catering to x y or z demographic, usually at the expense of turning away their core demographic who don't appreciate their favourite fiction being retconned, and butchered, simply to appease a current generation of militant politically correct active social media minority who have no interest in said fiction other than their will for everything to be equal and diverse, so long as it's in their favour of course...

Thankfully the militant political correctness brigade haven't quite got their talons into GW yet, although I'm sure Sisters of Battle were, and continue to be, an attempt by GW to assuage some discontent from that sector which was in it's infancy at the time GW originally conceived SoB, or at the most basic a cynical attempt at getting women into GW tabletop gaming...

**queen_annes_revenge**

Not interested, in my opinion something like that would only come from some perceived political angle, and arguably the wrong one at that.

**Hawky**

Changing established things to pander to SJWs never went wrong. Never.

**epronovost**

Hawky wrote:
Changing established things to pander to SJWs never went wrong. Never.

It produced the best Mad Max movie though

Come to think of it, I can't remember a big franchise that crashed because they added women, non-white people and non-heterosexual people in their story.

**Gordon Shumway**

Sticking ones' head in the ground when the world was changing around them never went wrong. Never. Ork thumb, or what have you. Damn computers.

**Hawky**

epronovost wrote:
Come to think of it, I can't remember a big franchise that crashed because they added women, non-white people and non-heterosexual people in their story.

There is a big difference between ADDING and REPLACING.

**queen_annes_revenge**

Just because the world is changing, doesn't necessarily mean it's for the better.

**phillv85**

I don’t see the point. The primarchs may not be a racial representation of the world, but that’s no surprise considering they were thought up 30 years ago by some British nerds. I amazed they’re as culturally diverse as they are. I personally don’t think a change is necessary.

**Not Online!!!**

And here i thought politics are VERBOTEN ON THIS SITE UNDER PUNISHMENT.