Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Togusa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Dude I don't have any "best on the table top units". Of course repulsors aren't the worst. The rest of the marine tank line exists. But EXTERNALLY they are garbage still.

And yes, I primarily face top tournament units. So many plaguebearers. I'm so sick of plaguebearers.

They aren't garbage at all, that's the thing.

I certainly agree that they aren't the top vehicles on the table, that's not in question. They do work however, an can perform at the highest level.

A lot of people are literally dismissing things because they aren't "winning large tournaments"
That is plain wrong. .

PS: They work great against plaguebearers. Loads of shots and can't be tied up.


Let's all stop with the hyperbolic comments and absolutes.

Those aren't the only opponents. They're like very other marine unit: work okay 40% of the time, get smoked 60% of the time. I'm dismissed them because I've killed a ton of these things with frickin BA, the worst list in the game. They are not impressive. Lack of invuln puts them way behind the 8-ball.

Ok you dismiss them. Now move on. You hate everything that isn't winning tournaments, we get it.

I'm actually calling you out. Either your group is incompetent or you are making things up. I see you in every topic talking things down.

Ohhh. You're calling me out. Marines are bad. Good look at 40kstats.com. It's all right there. Someone else already did all the work on that one, chief.

"things" being terrible marine units, yes. Get a grip.

The fact that "40KStats.com" even exists makes me sad.

The game will be much more fun if the competitives will leave and go find some other game to play.

So much this. So so much.

 Togusa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Dude I don't have any "best on the table top units". Of course repulsors aren't the worst. The rest of the marine tank line exists. But EXTERNALLY they are garbage still.

And yes, I primarily face top tournament units. So many plaguebearers. I'm so sick of plaguebearers.

They aren't garbage at all, that's the thing.

I certainly agree that they aren't the top vehicles on the table, that's not in question. They do work however, an can perform at the highest level.

A lot of people are literally dismissing things because they aren't "winning large tournaments"
That is plain wrong. .

PS: They work great against plaguebearers. Loads of shots and can't be tied up.


Let's all stop with the hyperbolic comments and absolutes.

Those aren't the only opponents. They're like very other marine unit: work okay 40% of the time, get smoked 60% of the time. I'm dismissed them because I've killed a ton of these things with frickin BA, the worst list in the game. They are not impressive. Lack of invuln puts them way behind the 8-ball.

Ok you dismiss them. Now move on. You hate everything that isn't winning tournaments, we get it.

I'm actually calling you out. Either your group is incompetent or you are making things up. I see you in every topic talking things down.

Ohhh. You're calling me out. Marines are bad. Good look at 40kstats.com. It's all right there. Someone else already did all the work on that one, chief.

"things" being terrible marine units, yes. Get a grip.

The fact that "40KStats.com" even exists makes me sad.

The game will be much more fun if the competitives will leave and go find some other game to play.

People like numbers. Just look at all the baseball stats. Competitive players leaving won't make marines good.

Nothing wrong with competitive players. Nothing wrong with competitive playing. I personally love it.

You fail because you can't understand that not every game has to be in a competitive, tournament environment and you limit your hobby to that particular experience.

That can't be right. This thing gets shoot twice for everything it's carrying, and PoTMS? That's asking for a higher cost than 280. What balances out the Russ Shoot twice rule is it's feth awful BS, and on the move it's even worse.

This thing is moving 6.9", unloading a ton of nerds, unleashing a lot of fire power, twice, at full BS, with re-rolls likely, for 280? That can't be right. Everything Primaris is got a Primaris tax, so if we use any indicator, the closest is the Land Raider. I expect fully gunned this thing to be over 320.

For the reference to the Stryker, I merely meant the shape, not anything else. Which makes a funny point.

The Stryker was a giant waste of money, didn't work like intended, was way over-costed, and never made it to the hot spots to actually fully replace it's original counterpart, the HMMWV.

The amount of time my unit spent guarding wreckers as they pulled those things out of fish farms....on the bright side they caused a bump in retention, as everyone wanted to go Stryker.

the problem isn't compeitivenness the problem is mathhammering detirming a unit is .0005 percent less pwoerful then another unit and dismissing it as worthless

I can assure you bad units are off the mark by a greater margin than that.

Double tap isnt confirmed for non-Apoc, and even then is explicitly noted to only work for the main gun.

Klickor wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Klickor wrote:

Some people are complaining about having to roll dice? Get out of here, you are a cynical troll if that's your opinion.

Actually there is a thing called too much dice rolling. Especially with all the rerolls. It takes away tons of time. It's not fun rolling like 200 dice to resolve shooting from ONE unit. And that's not exaggeration. Not that long time there was an ork unit where 1/3 of times(well bit more) in average rolled 250 dice or so in one turn. Before opponent rolls for save.

8th ed is GW's slowest edition ever barring maybe rogue trader(haven't played it) in standard game size. And that's precisely because 8th ed has taken dice rolling to ridiculous number.

Dont forget that there is a 6 man infantry unit in Ultramarine lists that fire 108 shots with full rerolls on both hit and wounds. That is 108 + 36 dice rolled just for hitting, 96 + 42 for wounding on t4. And then about 70 armor saves. That is over 300 die rolls for 6 models shooting at an infantry squad. Could probably squeeze in another 20-50 feel no pain rolls there too. My first game of 40k in 7 years and I met that stupid unit on the other side of the table with my 5th edition blood angels. Thought the opponent was joking when he rolled 3 containers worth of dice. Just for 6 guys

To be fair, those are Aggressors, which require a lot of things to go right for them to be effective. Also, that setup you are talking about requires a Captain, so it's actually 2 units. Then it requires a f-ton of points to field that squad. So, yeah. Maybe a good example of going over on dice, but surely any unit taken to extremes will provide extreme examples...

Um no, Centurion Devastators with G-man. Move and shoot without -1 to hit and ignores cover with 36 heavy bolter shots and 72 bolter shots. T5 3W with 2+. Can even add in an apothecary in the list to bring them back to life. They even average 21+ wounds on a t7 tank with 3+/4++ armor save or about 31 marines dead after saves. They dont need much to be effective at all. (You would probably still field G-man anyway and have him close by and they can make up their points against any statline). Lots of points but not like they are ill spent and they are infantry without to hit penalty so they can even hide out of LOS until they step forward and obliterate stuff. Anything that isnt a land raider(t8 2+ 16w) or tougher will be killed just by the amount of dice rolled.

Aggressors can have the same amount of shots for half the price but its true that they are gimmicky. 6-18 inch shorter range and have to stand still with their 18inch range to double tap, no str 5 ap1 shots and no ignores cover. And 1 less wound and worse save.

What's really funny about that is that Centurions are considered to be absurdly overcosted by most players, even with all the rerolls. They're 70 points a pop minimum, a full squad is 410 points. That's more than some Knights iirc.

Martel732 wrote:
I can assure you bad units are off the mark by a greater margin than that.

A unit with a 4++ compared to a 3+ save is about 50% more durable and possibly even more than that in important situations with command rerolls on invo saves. To call that a .0005 % difference in power level is a really misrepresenting the facts.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That can't be right. This thing gets shoot twice for everything it's carrying, and PoTMS? That's asking for a higher cost than 280. What balances out the Russ Shoot twice rule is it's feth awful BS, and on the move it's even worse.

The shoot twice rule only effects the Heavy Laser Destroyer and the Macro Plasma Cannon, only one of which can be on the tank at a time. And we only know for sure that it has that rule in Apocalypse. I'll be surprised if it doesn't have it under normal 40k rules as well, but there's no guarantee at this point.

The Newman wrote:

Klickor wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Klickor wrote:

Some people are complaining about having to roll dice? Get out of here, you are a cynical troll if that's your opinion.

Actually there is a thing called too much dice rolling. Especially with all the rerolls. It takes away tons of time. It's not fun rolling like 200 dice to resolve shooting from ONE unit. And that's not exaggeration. Not that long time there was an ork unit where 1/3 of times(well bit more) in average rolled 250 dice or so in one turn. Before opponent rolls for save.

8th ed is GW's slowest edition ever barring maybe rogue trader(haven't played it) in standard game size. And that's precisely because 8th ed has taken dice rolling to ridiculous number.

Dont forget that there is a 6 man infantry unit in Ultramarine lists that fire 108 shots with full rerolls on both hit and wounds. That is 108 + 36 dice rolled just for hitting, 96 + 42 for wounding on t4. And then about 70 armor saves. That is over 300 die rolls for 6 models shooting at an infantry squad. Could probably squeeze in another 20-50 feel no pain rolls there too. My first game of 40k in 7 years and I met that stupid unit on the other side of the table with my 5th edition blood angels. Thought the opponent was joking when he rolled 3 containers worth of dice. Just for 6 guys

To be fair, those are Aggressors, which require a lot of things to go right for them to be effective. Also, that setup you are talking about requires a Captain, so it's actually 2 units. Then it requires a f-ton of points to field that squad. So, yeah. Maybe a good example of going over on dice, but surely any unit taken to extremes will provide extreme examples...

Um no, Centurion Devastators with G-man. Move and shoot without -1 to hit and ignores cover with 36 heavy bolter shots and 72 bolter shots. T5 3W with 2+. Can even add in an apothecary in the list to bring them back to life. They even average 21+ wounds on a t7 tank with 3+/4++ armor save or about 31 marines dead after saves. They dont need much to be effective at all. (You would probably still field G-man anyway and have him close by and they can make up their points against any statline). Lots of points but not like they are ill spent and they are infantry without to hit penalty so they can even hide out of LOS until they step forward and obliterate stuff. Anything that isnt a land raider(t8 2+ 16w) or tougher will be killed just by the amount of dice rolled.

Aggressors can have the same amount of shots for half the price but its true that they are gimmicky. 6-18 inch shorter range and have to stand still with their 18inch range to double tap, no str 5 ap1 shots and no ignores cover. And 1 less wound and worse save.

What's really funny about that is that Centurions are considered to be absurdly overcosted by most players, even with all the rerolls. They're 70 points a pop minimum, a full squad is 410 points. That's more than some Knights iirc.

Marine weapons are all overcosted...how is a hurricane bolter worth 10 points and a storm bolter 2 points? How is a HB 10 points? Why do marines have no invun saves in a game where practically every other model has them? Marines are supposed to be durable (it is their key attribute).

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That can't be right. This thing gets shoot twice for everything it's carrying, and PoTMS? That's asking for a higher cost than 280. What balances out the Russ Shoot twice rule is it's feth awful BS, and on the move it's even worse.

This thing is moving 6.9", unloading a ton of nerds, unleashing a lot of fire power, twice, at full BS, with re-rolls likely, for 280? That can't be right. Everything Primaris is got a Primaris tax, so if we use any indicator, the closest is the Land Raider. I expect fully gunned this thing to be over 320.

For the reference to the Stryker, I merely meant the shape, not anything else. Which makes a funny point.

The Stryker was a giant waste of money, didn't work like intended, was way over-costed, and never made it to the hot spots to actually fully replace it's original counterpart, the HMMWV.

The amount of time my unit spent guarding wreckers as they pulled those things out of fish farms....on the bright side they caused a bump in retention, as everyone wanted to go Stryker.

You know that Leman Russes also ignore the move-fire penalty; and if you're using the variety of Leman Russ that isn't bad, it's BS3+. Fire Prisms are also BS3+

I expect the Repulsor Executioner will only fire it's main gun twice.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Oh for sure.

I think a lot of the hate on Repulsors isn't about power level. It's about two things:

1. They're ugly as all heck.
2. They're a missed opportunity due to their confused design.

That's your opinion. It's not ugly or a missed opportunity.
Do you hate every other Marine vehicle as well? The Repulsor is a good evolution of the Land Raider shape but actually looks like it can function and won't get beached.

Actually I'm a big Primaris fan. I have a large Dark Angel army that is entirely Primaris or Terminators (though the latter don't see the table much at the moment...).

The issue I and many others have with the Repulsor is the haphazard way so many different guns are tacked onto it. It just looks silly to me, like something a child would come up with. The actual hull is a box, but I'm fine with a tank being a box.

Modern battle tanks have similar weapon arrangements. Smoke launchers on turret. Pintle MG. Coaxel MG. They dont have hull mounted weapons but every other tank in 40k has those too. The only thing that is somewhat unconventional is the 3 turret mounted small arms on the sides. That is a lot more like a B29 or something. Hard to see why a storm bolter on the side of something would ruin a model for you though. I think there is something else going on there. Like...The real LR has sponson mounted weapons...

You can't debate me into liking how it looks I'm afraid. I appreciate others will feel differently, but as I say to my eyes it looks silly and ugly - and yes, to me it is a significant step down from the aesthetic of a Land Raider.

Since when are Lehman Russ BS 3+? Are you talking about a Tank Commander? Because I'm looking at my book right now, and it's 4+ BS for regular LRBTs. Are you talking about the Commander?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Since when are Lehman Russ BS 3+? Are you talking about a Tank Commander? Because I'm looking at my book right now, and it's 4+ BS for regular LRBTs. Are you talking about the Commander?

In general youll never see more than 3 LR on the table anyways. So only commanders are relevent to the discussion. You can however take Cadian LR and focus them on a single target - for 2 CP they will be hitting on 3's along with the rest of your army vs that target.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marine weapons are all overcosted...how is a hurricane bolter worth 10 points and a storm bolter 2 points? How is a HB 10 points?

Hurricane Bolter: 6 shots at 24", 12 at 12", S4AP0
Shuriken Cannon: 3 shots at 24", S6 AP0 pseudorend.

Two to *four times* the shots, in exchange for 2 less S, and pseudorend.
The SC outperforms vs:
- T8+ models without invulns.
Hurricane Bolter outperforms vs:
-GEQ
-MEQ
-TEQ
-Light vehicles (Venoms, Piranhas, etc)
-Medium vehicles (Preds, Serpents, etc)
-*anything* within 12"

Doesn't look undercosted.

Storm Bolter: RF2 24" S4 AP0
Avenger SC: A2 18" S4 AP0 Bladestorm
Again, Storm Bolter destroys the ASC vs most targets.

The Newman wrote:

Klickor wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Klickor wrote:

Some people are complaining about having to roll dice? Get out of here, you are a cynical troll if that's your opinion.

Actually there is a thing called too much dice rolling. Especially with all the rerolls. It takes away tons of time. It's not fun rolling like 200 dice to resolve shooting from ONE unit. And that's not exaggeration. Not that long time there was an ork unit where 1/3 of times(well bit more) in average rolled 250 dice or so in one turn. Before opponent rolls for save.

8th ed is GW's slowest edition ever barring maybe rogue trader(haven't played it) in standard game size. And that's precisely because 8th ed has taken dice rolling to ridiculous number.

Dont forget that there is a 6 man infantry unit in Ultramarine lists that fire 108 shots with full rerolls on both hit and wounds. That is 108 + 36 dice rolled just for hitting, 96 + 42 for wounding on t4. And then about 70 armor saves. That is over 300 die rolls for 6 models shooting at an infantry squad. Could probably squeeze in another 20-50 feel no pain rolls there too. My first game of 40k in 7 years and I met that stupid unit on the other side of the table with my 5th edition blood angels. Thought the opponent was joking when he rolled 3 containers worth of dice. Just for 6 guys

To be fair, those are Aggressors, which require a lot of things to go right for them to be effective. Also, that setup you are talking about requires a Captain, so it's actually 2 units. Then it requires a f-ton of points to field that squad. So, yeah. Maybe a good example of going over on dice, but surely any unit taken to extremes will provide extreme examples...

Um no, Centurion Devastators with G-man. Move and shoot without -1 to hit and ignores cover with 36 heavy bolter shots and 72 bolter shots. T5 3W with 2+. Can even add in an apothecary in the list to bring them back to life. They even average 21+ wounds on a t7 tank with 3+/4++ armor save or about 31 marines dead after saves. They dont need much to be effective at all. (You would probably still field G-man anyway and have him close by and they can make up their points against any statline). Lots of points but not like they are ill spent and they are infantry without to hit penalty so they can even hide out of LOS until they step forward and obliterate stuff. Anything that isnt a land raider(t8 2+ 16w) or tougher will be killed just by the amount of dice rolled.

Aggressors can have the same amount of shots for half the price but its true that they are gimmicky. 6-18 inch shorter range and have to stand still with their 18inch range to double tap, no str 5 ap1 shots and no ignores cover. And 1 less wound and worse save.

What's really funny about that is that Centurions are considered to be absurdly overcosted by most players, even with all the rerolls. They're 70 points a pop minimum, a full squad is 410 points. That's more than some Knights iirc.

Find me something that is a Space Marine and isnt overcosted compared to other armies.

But yeah without any rerolls they are quite overcosted. Its like they are priced asuming Gulliman is close to them.

Klickor wrote:

Find me something that is a Space Marine and isnt overcosted compared to other armies.

Storm Bolter.
Storm Shield.
Lascannon.

But yeah without any rerolls they are quite overcosted. Its like they are priced asuming Gulliman is close to them.

It feels like almost the entire codex was costed that way.

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marine weapons are all overcosted...how is a hurricane bolter worth 10 points and a storm bolter 2 points? How is a HB 10 points?

Hurricane Bolter: 6 shots at 24", 12 at 12", S4AP0
Shuriken Cannon: 3 shots at 24", S6 AP0 pseudorend.

Two to *four times* the shots, in exchange for 2 less S, and pseudorend.
The SC outperforms vs:
- T8+ models without invulns.
Hurricane Bolter outperforms vs:
-GEQ
-MEQ
-TEQ
-Light vehicles (Venoms, Piranhas, etc)
-Medium vehicles (Preds, Serpents, etc)
-*anything* within 12"

Doesn't look undercosted.

Storm Bolter: RF2 24" S4 AP0
Avenger SC: A2 18" S4 AP0 Bladestorm
Again, Storm Bolter destroys the ASC vs most targets.

Don't forget the SC is assault and practically every unit that uses it can advance and shoot it with no penalty. Mobility is the name of the game. Plus I don't see anyone spamming SC anyways - so I'd consider it is pretty bad to begin with.
Avernger cats should be 0 or 1 point and you know it. Dire avengers are straight trash.

It's easy to tell the HB is overcosted. It has the same firepower as 3 storm bolters and it costs the same as 5 storm bolters. A comparison of trash can't be made any more literally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

Klickor wrote:

Find me something that is a Space Marine and isnt overcosted compared to other armies.

Storm Bolter.
Storm Shield.
Lascannon.

But yeah without any rerolls they are quite overcosted. Its like they are priced asuming Gulliman is close to them.

It feels like almost the entire codex was costed that way.

2 point storm sheild is a joke. Too bad only DW can really utilize it. LC compared to BL is a joke. There is no reason for these weapons to have a different price point. LC should be 20 points. Storm bolters are good - youll see no argument there. Terminators though with 1 storm bolters though? Utter garbage?

25 pt lascannons are very overcosted imo. No one really bothers with the rof 1 stuff where I'm at now, though. I guess lances have the same problem. Everythings just worse because the dood you are putting the lascannon on is also overcosted.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marine weapons are all overcosted...how is a hurricane bolter worth 10 points and a storm bolter 2 points? How is a HB 10 points?

Hurricane Bolter: 6 shots at 24", 12 at 12", S4AP0
Shuriken Cannon: 3 shots at 24", S6 AP0 pseudorend.

Two to *four times* the shots, in exchange for 2 less S, and pseudorend.
The SC outperforms vs:
- T8+ models without invulns.
Hurricane Bolter outperforms vs:
-GEQ
-MEQ
-TEQ
-Light vehicles (Venoms, Piranhas, etc)
-Medium vehicles (Preds, Serpents, etc)
-*anything* within 12"

Doesn't look undercosted.

Storm Bolter: RF2 24" S4 AP0
Avenger SC: A2 18" S4 AP0 Bladestorm
Again, Storm Bolter destroys the ASC vs most targets.

Don't forget the SC is assault and practically every unit that uses it can advance and shoot it with no penalty. Mobility is the name of the game.

Can take the SC:
-Serpent - penalty
-Falcon - penalty
-Prism - penalty
-Nightspinner - penalty
-Vyper - penalty
-Skyweaver - penalty
-Starweaver - penalty
-Voidweaver - penalty
-Wraithlord - penalty
-Hornet - penalty
-Wasp - penalty
-War Walker - no penalty
-Guardian Platform - no penalty
-Reaper Exarch - no penalty
-Windrider - no penalty

So, 4 of 15 units off the top of my head that can take it have that rule. Most SCs can't - either by number of options that can or by frequency of platforms they're taken on.

Plus I don't see anyone spamming SC anyways - so I'd consider it is pretty bad to begin with.

I certainly wouldn't say they're bad. They aren't the best thing in the game, but they do work.

Avernger cats should be 0 or 1 point and you know it. Dire avengers are straight trash.

Dire Avengers aren't the best, but they aren't straight trash. ASCs should in no way be 0ppm (unless their cost were absorbed by the unit).

It's easy to tell the HB is overcosted. It has the same firepower as 3 storm bolters and it costs the same as 5 storm bolters. A comparison of trash can't be made any more literally.

Well, if that's the case, lets just quadrouple the cost of a Pulse Rifle for 4x the cost. By this logic, totally fair?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

Klickor wrote:

Find me something that is a Space Marine and isnt overcosted compared to other armies.

Storm Bolter.
Storm Shield.
Lascannon.

But yeah without any rerolls they are quite overcosted. Its like they are priced asuming Gulliman is close to them.

It feels like almost the entire codex was costed that way.

2 point storm sheild is a joke. Too bad only DW can really utilize it. LC compared to BL is a joke. There is no reason for these weapons to have a different price point. LC should be 20 points.

S9 48" AP-3 vs S8 36" AP-4? You're trading +1S and 12" range to go from AP-3 to AP-4.
The LC wounds anything T8 on 3s instead of 4s. Huge in a meta where Knights and Russes aren't exactly rare.
The LC can touch anything midfield and half their backfield from the safety of your backfield. The BL needs to be midfield to hit their backfield. 36" vs 48" is a big deal on weapons that can't afford to move.
The BL denies targets with a 3+ the 6+ save the LC would give - provided they have no invuln. Throw in a 6++ or better, and no difference.

In summary, the BL is better for killing:
-Marines in midfield
The LC is better for killing:
-Knights
-Leman Russes
-Land Raiders
-Spears
-Guardsmen
-Anything with less than a 3+
-Anything with a 6++ or better
-Any backfielder

There's no reason a LasCannon should be as cheap as a Brightlance.

Storm bolters are good - youll see no argument there. Terminators though with 1 storm bolters though? Utter garbage?

The shortcomings of Astartes units have little to do with stats or costs and everything to do with a lack of effective stratagems, psychic powers and Warlord traits.

These are things which elevate the armies.

All that is true, but a 38 pt 1 W guy holding a lascannon doesn't fare too well in 8th.

Honestly, the Executioner (and likely the base Repulsor in reto-fix) will probably gain the shoot-twice ability. This would serve two purposes.

1) Make the tank maybe, almost, vaguely worth taking.
2) Put the nail in the coffin of Land Raiders and Predators (which are already in a bad place). That's a desired effect as the marine swap-out continues.

I'd say it's exceedingly likely it'll happen.

I just had this same go-around with someone else on how the Big Shoota compares to the Heavy Bolter or the Assault Bolter. The BS is a bad weapon at 5 points in an ork army, two similar but unambiguously worse weapons (one is Heavy instead of Assault, the other has half the range) cost twice as much for Marines. Better AP accounts for some of it but definitely not all of it.

What I'm getting at is that you can't compare a Bright Lance to a Lascannon point for point since you're judging their value in the context of different armies. The Stormbolter/Shurken Cannon comparison has the same problem.

The Stormbolter/Hurricane Bolter comparison is apt though since one is literally a triple-linked version of the other.

 Elbows wrote:
Honestly, the Executioner (and likely the base Repulsor in reto-fix) will probably gain the shoot-twice ability. This would serve two purposes.

1) Make the tank maybe, almost, vaguely worth taking.
2) Put the nail in the coffin of Land Raiders and Predators (which are already in a bad place). That's a desired effect as the marine swap-out continues.

I'd say it's exceedingly likely it'll happen.

Mm I hope you're wrong, kinda.

I want the new tank to shoot twice and sit at what the current repulsor point level. Then I want the current repulsor to be cheaper. I won't give a value that I believe it should be. But I think most of us only believe it's overpriced because of the race to the bottom

But with what has been said, if you're gonna take one leave it on the shelf because you need at least two. Land Raiders make appropriate proxies and I think this Executioner will make things interesting

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Honestly, the Executioner (and likely the base Repulsor in reto-fix) will probably gain the shoot-twice ability. This would serve two purposes.

1) Make the tank maybe, almost, vaguely worth taking.
2) Put the nail in the coffin of Land Raiders and Predators (which are already in a bad place). That's a desired effect as the marine swap-out continues.

I'd say it's exceedingly likely it'll happen.

Mm I hope you're wrong, kinda.

I want the new tank to shoot twice and sit at what the current repulsor point level. Then I want the current repulsor to be cheaper. I won't give a value that I believe it should be. But I think most of us only believe it's overpriced because of the race to the bottom

But with what has been said, if you're gonna take one leave it on the shelf because you need at least two. Land Raiders make appropriate proxies and I think this Executioner will make things interesting

We just need a variant of repulsive which forgoes the turret.

 Elbows wrote:
Honestly, the Executioner (and likely the base Repulsor in reto-fix) will probably gain the shoot-twice ability. This would serve two purposes.

1) Make the tank maybe, almost, vaguely worth taking.
2) Put the nail in the coffin of Land Raiders and Predators (which are already in a bad place). That's a desired effect as the marine swap-out continues.

I'd say it's exceedingly likely it'll happen.

Except once again it's not actually fixing the underlying issue that doubel shooting is trying to fix which is simply GW got the wounding chart wrong.
It's simply too flat with far to much access to rerolls, it's the reason why the only repulsor build you see is max shots with Gman.
Marines suck but just throing out more horrendously balanced units with OP abilities to "fix" them just indicates that GW need to go back to the drawing board for 9th.

 argonak wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Honestly, the Executioner (and likely the base Repulsor in reto-fix) will probably gain the shoot-twice ability. This would serve two purposes.

1) Make the tank maybe, almost, vaguely worth taking.
2) Put the nail in the coffin of Land Raiders and Predators (which are already in a bad place). That's a desired effect as the marine swap-out continues.

I'd say it's exceedingly likely it'll happen.

Mm I hope you're wrong, kinda.

I want the new tank to shoot twice and sit at what the current repulsor point level. Then I want the current repulsor to be cheaper. I won't give a value that I believe it should be. But I think most of us only believe it's overpriced because of the race to the bottom

But with what has been said, if you're gonna take one leave it on the shelf because you need at least two. Land Raiders make appropriate proxies and I think this Executioner will make things interesting

We just need a variant of repulsive which forgoes the turret.

I can really get behind this provided it's cheaper money wise.

Points wise it'd be around 200, which is fair I think? But it would almost put the repulsor in an awkward middle zone. I'd expect this metal box to come out when gravis melee troops come out and they effectively half its capacity

 Ishagu wrote:
The shortcomings of Astartes units have little to do with stats or costs and everything to do with a lack of effective stratagems, psychic powers and Warlord traits.

These are things which elevate the armies.

BA are arguably in all three areas and are significantly worse, esp outside of itc. It is all about costs.