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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: You say most "lists" can take out a repulsor in one turn. Without going through 100% of their shooting. Well, ofcourse, that's a whole list.
What I'm saying is if you dedicate your entire list to shooting one target in a single turn, you have severely hurt yourself.
Lets do this by the numbers. Lets use Drukari:
What lists are there that one turn 1 can eliminate two of these, and have shooting left over? Because I don't know why you are spending all your effort wiping out 1-2 tanks when there are far more valuable targets.
Both of my tau and Knight's lists could do that on avarage dice I'd say. Also at that point your down 600+ points and what is your return AT coming from?
I hate to admit it but simply put 2 commander russes certainly seem a better investment of points than 1 of these.
Yeah, just my Plasma Devs would average 27.3 wounds on a Repulsor target. It doesn't take anywhere near a whole list to knock something like that out. In my experience the big vehicle targets just don't tank hits without an invuln.
Land Raiders in cover could almost tank effectively if it werent for a few AP-4 and above weapons. They dont quite put up enough return fire though.
I think your math is off a bit there unless you are talking 3 squads. Assuming 10 shots with the cherub. You average about 8-9 hits with rerolls and wound about 5 times with reroll 1's. Plus he still gets a 6+ so probably averages about 8 damage. It still a lot but far from 1 shooting it. Ironically the double shooting plasma will average about the same damage because it wounds on 3's and is ap-4.
3 squads, Cherubs, Chapter Master + Lt. Rerolls.
Point is that it hardly takes an army to take one down. 8 Lascannons on a BS3+ platform with the same rerolls average 16 wounds.
Haha, Terminus Ultra.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: IMHO the biggest issue is that blast weapons are better then concentrated damage weapons.
1D6 attacks 1 damage is intended to be a weapon you use to clear infantry, but it's straight up better then 1 attack 1d6 damage, which is clearly INTENDED to be your heavy punch weapons, GW needs to fix that IMHO
All else being equal (S and AP) it doesn't matter where the D6 is in the equation. A D6 shot 1D Lascannon is as effective as a 1 shot D6D Lascannon.
Actually it does matter where you put the D6, if it's shots, then you're more likely to cause at least some damage, whereas if it's D6 damage, it's a much more of an "all or nothing" gamble
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: You say most "lists" can take out a repulsor in one turn. Without going through 100% of their shooting. Well, ofcourse, that's a whole list.
What I'm saying is if you dedicate your entire list to shooting one target in a single turn, you have severely hurt yourself.
Lets do this by the numbers. Lets use Drukari:
What lists are there that one turn 1 can eliminate two of these, and have shooting left over? Because I don't know why you are spending all your effort wiping out 1-2 tanks when there are far more valuable targets.
Both of my tau and Knight's lists could do that on avarage dice I'd say. Also at that point your down 600+ points and what is your return AT coming from?
I hate to admit it but simply put 2 commander russes certainly seem a better investment of points than 1 of these.
Yeah, just my Plasma Devs would average 27.3 wounds on a Repulsor target. It doesn't take anywhere near a whole list to knock something like that out. In my experience the big vehicle targets just don't tank hits without an invuln.
Land Raiders in cover could almost tank effectively if it werent for a few AP-4 and above weapons. They dont quite put up enough return fire though.
I think your math is off a bit there unless you are talking 3 squads. Assuming 10 shots with the cherub. You average about 8-9 hits with rerolls and wound about 5 times with reroll 1's. Plus he still gets a 6+ so probably averages about 8 damage. It still a lot but far from 1 shooting it. Ironically the double shooting plasma will average about the same damage because it wounds on 3's and is ap-4.
3 squads, Cherubs, Chapter Master + Lt. Rerolls.
Point is that it hardly takes an army to take one down. 8 Lascannons on a BS3+ platform with the same rerolls average 16 wounds.
Haha, Terminus Ultra.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: IMHO the biggest issue is that blast weapons are better then concentrated damage weapons.
1D6 attacks 1 damage is intended to be a weapon you use to clear infantry, but it's straight up better then 1 attack 1d6 damage, which is clearly INTENDED to be your heavy punch weapons, GW needs to fix that IMHO
All else being equal (S and AP) it doesn't matter where the D6 is in the equation. A D6 shot 1D Lascannon is as effective as a 1 shot D6D Lascannon.
Actually it does matter where you put the D6, if it's shots, then you're more likely to cause at least some damage, whereas if it's D6 damage, it's a much more of an "all or nothing" gamble
It matters so little at shooting tanks compared to how much it matters at shooting non tanks that its neglible. A d6 shot 1D lascannon killing 3,5 more infantry models than a normal lascannon matters much more about it being a bit swingy sometimes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Look, I'm not going to lie, Ishagu has made a very valid point that keeps getting ignored. Diversify your offense, and your lack of invuln saves become less of a glaring issue.
If my opponent wants to waste a turn blowing up a 300pt target, let him. Meanwhile my DSers are in his backfield turn 2, or my gun line has wiped his off the board, or my custodes are in melee range of his juicy big guns, or any number of other plans are bearing fruit.
Oh well, one attack was blunted, big deal. Where are your other 1500ish points?
Other armies do this better than marines, though. Anything you can think to do, so can a better codex. Also, other armies stuff has a chance of living due to invuln (IK), a cheaper cost per wound (IG), so they don't CARE if they die, or worse, a combination of both. (Drukhari)
He's pointing out an OBVIOUS tactic, which the repulsor actually leans AWAY from. Even if all I do is torch a 300+ point tank, and force death rolls for the contents, I'm still on track to cripple your army. Most lists can remove 16 T8 wounds with no invuln pretty consistently with less than 100% of their shooting, too.
How does losing your repulsor help your deep strikers? If you've got deep strikers people care about, they'll just hold anti-DS formation until you have to commit. Marine gunlines likely will not knock out an entire enemy gunline in one go. Maybe your custodes BIKES are close, but not foot Custodes. Losing a 300 pt tank to a fraction of enemy fire IS a big deal.
Marines struggle to diversify because of their cost. Lack of invuln will always be an issue, because your opponent is always getting full value from AP they purchase.
Why on God's name do you even play Astartes? You hate them, you complain about them, you only care about performance yet refuse to invest in a new army.
Either start collecting something new or please, for the sake of sanity, stop complaining over and over again in every.single.topic.
For some people the hobby is painting and collecting. For some people the hobby is gaming. For some people the hobby is complaining.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 10:15:11
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
The problem as I see it is the reliance on the d6 system. If at max odds, your best chance is still almost 20% likely to go off, that is not hard to achieve, especially in armies where you get to roll 30-60 d6. Guard, Daemons, Chaos, Zerg, etc. Yeah, my telemon is hard to take down, but a squad of buffed up bloodletters scare the crap out of it. They can, by sheer dice averages, get enough 6s to just drop the thing in one go.
Now, if we were to go to D10, or d12, ala what Apoc is doing, it makes the entire game MUCH more dynamic. That squad of blood letters likely won't kill my telemon, and they will go after a better target they can actually influence.
Hence, why I see Apoc is going to be 40k 9th ed, and they are moving to a D12. Or did I read that wrong on Bell of Lost souls?
Some people seem to lack the ability to interact without getting sassy...
BTT:
I'm not really keen on the repulsor design. I like the hull, but there are to many things attached to it. Something a but "cleaner" would be nixe, in my opinion.
Even if getting more / bigger guns seems to be the logical next step in the evolution of the vehicle, it also lessens my urge to get one.
I'm curious if it will be seen very often, considering it's quite an asset (points- and cash-wise)
Let's move on from this unnecessary conflict, friends. Martel is just extremely passionate in his criticism - no harm done and you can always ignore a poster if you're not feeling they aren't contributing.
Back on topic - Eliminators with the new "Las-fusils" weapon could be a perfect unit to house inside the Executioner for a turn if you're worried they'll be erased early.
BTT:
I'm not really keen on the repulsor design. I like the hull, but there are to many things attached to it. Something a but "cleaner" would be nixe, in my opinion.
Even if getting more / bigger guns seems to be the logical next step in the evolution of the vehicle, it also lessens my urge to get one.
I'm curious if it will be seen very often, considering it's quite an asset (points- and cash-wise)
Could always not put the stowage bits on the hull if you want a cleaner look.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 13:18:26
2019/06/27 13:39:47
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
Apparently someone won a GT this weekend running predators and repulsors with eleminators in them, beating Reece and Pablo from FLG as well as abusepuppy's eldar (blogger veteran) with that list...
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Point is that it hardly takes an army to take one down. 8 Lascannons on a BS3+ platform with the same rerolls average 16 wounds.
thaty's 387 points of devestators, assuming you don't run with ANY Abalative wounds (assuming you run with 5 abalative wounds in each squad thats another 195 points) meanwhile a repulsor clocks in at what 290?
I'm not sure what you're getting at. There was a claim made that the Repulsor chassis can tank wound from.an army shooting it, and the counterpoint was that it hardly required an army. 387 is less than 20% of an army, which was my point. In fact that 387 points was substantial overkill. Average rolls meant it only takes two such squads.
387 doesnt include cherubs, so +15. Except only 2 squads are needed, so 268.
Jidmah wrote: Apparently someone won a GT this weekend running predators and repulsors with eleminators in them, beating Reece and Pablo from FLG as well as abusepuppy's eldar (blogger veteran) with that list...
Do you know any more information so we can see the list?
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Maybe being a good player makes up for their shortfall. You'll never know because by your own word you refuse to "run" units that aren't the best. But you've also said don't own any such units so I guess you can't really play the game?
Anyways, it takes skill and a bit of luck to win a GT with Marine vehicles as every loss can be felt. I've won the majority of games at some events using dual Repulsors and a Venator but was undone by an Eldar flyer soup in the later rounds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 13:53:29
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Options dude. Options should cost lots of points. Then you should also pay for the options you select at a higher rate than xenos too...cause...worse options should cost more than better ones.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Options dude. Options should cost lots of points. Then you should also pay for the options you select at a higher rate than xenos too...cause...worse options should cost more than better ones.
Yeah, I forgot the GW design paradigm. 50 lashes for me.
2019/06/27 13:56:28
Subject: Re:Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.
Jidmah wrote: Apparently someone won a GT this weekend running predators and repulsors with eleminators in them, beating Reece and Pablo from FLG as well as abusepuppy's eldar (blogger veteran) with that list...
Do you know any more information so we can see the list?
Scroll down to Throne of War GT - in the comments there is a spectator providing a short summary of the games.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/27 13:57:33
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Maybe being a good player makes up for their shortfall. You'll never know because by your own word you refuse to "run" units that aren't the best. But you've also said don't own any such units so I guess you can't really play the game?
Anyways, it takes skill and a bit of luck to win a GT with Marine vehicles as every loss can be felt. I've won the majority of games at some events using dual Repulsors and a Venator but was undone by an Eldar flyer soup in the later rounds.
I have preds from 3rd ed. I own basically every possible option BA can field.
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Maybe being a good player makes up for their shortfall. You'll never know because by your own word you refuse to "run" units that aren't the best. But you've also said don't own any such units so I guess you can't really play the game?
Anyways, it takes skill and a bit of luck to win a GT with Marine vehicles as every loss can be felt. I've won the majority of games at some events using dual Repulsors and a Venator but was undone by an Eldar flyer soup in the later rounds.
I have preds from 3rd ed. I own basically every possible option BA can field.
But you literally said you won't run units unless they are the best. That means you cant play the game. I don't see any Eldar flyers, Broadsides or Knights in the BA codex.
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Maybe being a good player makes up for their shortfall. You'll never know because by your own word you refuse to "run" units that aren't the best. But you've also said don't own any such units so I guess you can't really play the game?
Anyways, it takes skill and a bit of luck to win a GT with Marine vehicles as every loss can be felt. I've won the majority of games at some events using dual Repulsors and a Venator but was undone by an Eldar flyer soup in the later rounds.
He did face and beat or draw against some impressive players though, so it's not a shark in the fishtank issue. He also beat eldar flyers played by an eldar player whose strategy blog posts I was reading when I started back in 5th edition.
Multiple people also commented on how battlecannons suck at killing repulsors, a common gun for both IG and knights.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Krast battlecannons are a lot better, though. Battlecannons are still okay at it, they just don't get anything special. Battlecannons are amazing vs the field.
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Maybe being a good player makes up for their shortfall. You'll never know because by your own word you refuse to "run" units that aren't the best. But you've also said don't own any such units so I guess you can't really play the game?
Anyways, it takes skill and a bit of luck to win a GT with Marine vehicles as every loss can be felt. I've won the majority of games at some events using dual Repulsors and a Venator but was undone by an Eldar flyer soup in the later rounds.
Ehhh...preds can't even move and shoot efficiently. He literally sets up a gman gunline and does target priority. It's the most basic strategy in the book. Yeah - you can wipe some players off the board with that. It's gonna get rekt by anything that get get into assault turn 1. Which is basically 50% of lists. Not sure how he dodges those lists. Maybe people just underestimate him or use bad priority against him (killing 1 of those preds is basically all you need to do to beat this list). Hinging a stratagey around the survivability of a rhino is not good strategy.
The second place list in this GT has 6 eldar flyers and a bunch of wave serpants.Tell me how he is supposed to stop 4 wave serpants from getting into cc with his preds after he loses both repulsors turn 1?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 14:21:59
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Maybe being a good player makes up for their shortfall. You'll never know because by your own word you refuse to "run" units that aren't the best. But you've also said don't own any such units so I guess you can't really play the game?
Anyways, it takes skill and a bit of luck to win a GT with Marine vehicles as every loss can be felt. I've won the majority of games at some events using dual Repulsors and a Venator but was undone by an Eldar flyer soup in the later rounds.
Ehhh...preds can't even move and shoot efficiently. He literally sets up a gman gunline and does target priority. It's the most basic strategy in the book. Yeah - you can wipe some players off the board with that. It's gonna get rekt by anything that get get into assault turn 1. Which is basically 50% of lists. Not sure how he dodges those lists. Maybe people just underestimate him or use bad priority against him (killing 1 of those preds is basically all you need to do to beat this list). Hinging a stratagey around the survivability of a rhino is not good strategy.
The second place list in this GT has 6 eldar flyers and a bunch of wave serpants.Tell me how he is supposed to stop 4 wave serpants from getting into cc with his preds after he loses both repulsors turn 1?
No idea but it did it, I suspect it's the same dude that's been running that list for almost a year now and is just 100% on it and he's described as being good but having a list that either wins or looses quite hard on dice.
He uses the repulsors and Gman and infantry to keep you out of CC with the predators, usesthe cover strategum a lot to have 2+ army wide and IIRC tiggy for a -1 and T9 on the repulsors to improve their survival.
Remove 1 predator and Gman as he's lost the game I'm sure was his statement a while back.
The other issue is re-roll upon rerolls from Gman makes a massive swing in the performance of units.
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Maybe being a good player makes up for their shortfall. You'll never know because by your own word you refuse to "run" units that aren't the best. But you've also said don't own any such units so I guess you can't really play the game?
Anyways, it takes skill and a bit of luck to win a GT with Marine vehicles as every loss can be felt. I've won the majority of games at some events using dual Repulsors and a Venator but was undone by an Eldar flyer soup in the later rounds.
He did face and beat or draw against some impressive players though, so it's not a shark in the fishtank issue. He also beat eldar flyers played by an eldar player whose strategy blog posts I was reading when I started back in 5th edition.
Multiple people also commented on how battlecannons suck at killing repulsors, a common gun for both IG and knights.
Humm...Battlecannons do better than every option except for the demo cannon against a repulsor plasma also does better against it. 3 Manticores belong in every mono guard list - for some reason they are missing.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: The second place list in this GT has 6 eldar flyers and a bunch of wave serpants.Tell me how he is supposed to stop 4 wave serpants from getting into cc with his preds after he loses both repulsors turn 1?
He bet that player in the final game, despite that eldar player getting a great first turn according to a spectator.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
