Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Sure, the Serpent costs a little more than half the points (139 vs 256). But it also has maybe a quarter the firepower, and is generally easier to kill (per model).
The Serpent does move 4" more than the Repulsor. But the Repulsor has much better range.
Throw 12 Dire Avengers into it, and it now costs more than the Repulsor, dies just as fast, and still has worse dakka. Throw 12 Fire Dragons, and the dakka might be in the same range, but you're paying a gakton more.
Triple Shuirken Cannons means you have 9 Assualt shots. It's great that you don't get the -1 to hit, but it's still easily outperformed by the Repulsors main gun alone. Or the Heavy Bolters and small arms fire. Either half of the Repulsor's firepower outshine the Serpent. And contrary to your claims, the Serpent *does* suffer -1 to hit if it advances.
Serpents are effective battletanks, but only passable transports.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 20:45:06
Correction: A handful of Eldar units are strong. The rest of the book is marine-level-mediocre. When was the last time you saw an effective army of Aspect Warriors that wasn't just Dark Reapers and Shining Spears?
Elbows wrote: Correction: A handful of Eldar units are strong. The rest of the book is marine-level-mediocre. When was the last time you saw an effective army of Aspect Warriors that wasn't just Dark Reapers and Shining Spears?
Haha, that would be Warp Spiders back in 7th. They were OP back then but now are just medicore.
BTW, would you call Crimson Hunter a kind of Aspect Warriors? If yes, it is one of the mostly used Aspect Warriors.
Bharring wrote: In what world is losing a Repulsor because you felt it should eat Smites a better idea than losing some Eliminators or Servitors?
I was running numbers for the generic case, but sure, lets get specific. The CWE list had:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: 4 wounds
6xStarCannons: 11 wounds
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: 4 wounds
3x Missiles: Might get another 2 wounds?
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC: Less than 1 wound
3xSL: Less than 1 wound
Add it all together? I'm counting 23W. Not even close to wiping 2 Repulsors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: T8 3+ 16W is actually very durable.
Doom comes very close to doubling that damage.
Without doom: 23W
With doom:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: Doom increases wounds taken on a 4+ by 50%. So that's +2W.
6xStarCannons: Doom increases wounds taken on a 5+ by 66%. So that's roughly +8W
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: A 5+ so another +2W
3x Missiles: 5+ so another +1W
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC + 3SL: another +1W
Rounding up (significantly) gives us +14W with full rerolls. Only one of the two repulsors can be Doomed, so only half the dakka gets it, making it (liberally) +7W.
Assuming Doom, which is a roughly 40% chance, brings you to *30*W. Still short of killing two Repulsors.
So not only does Doom only increase firepower by ~60% on the target affected - it only increases firepower vs the pair of Repulsors by *30%*.
And that's being very generous with the rounding.
Try running numbers before spouting nonsense. Doom is always less than *double* damage. And more often not in play in this situation.
It is not in the least bit durable. A wave serpant is almost 4 times as durable per point.
Really? Lets see how that works!
Vs Brightlances:
Repulsor: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (50% wound average 3.5D/W)
Wave Serpent: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (2/3 wound average 2.66D/W)
Roughly the same per model. The Serpent doesn't cost 4x the Repulsor.
Vs Boltguns:
Repulsor: Roughly 288 hits to kill
Serpent: 144 hits to kill
Repusor takes twice as many Boltgun rounds to kill
Lasguns:
Both take 288 hits to kill. Same here.
Plasma Guns (non-OCed)
Repulsor: 72 hits to kill
Serpent: 48 hits to kill
Again, Repulsor is much better off
Plasma Guns (OCed)
This is the weapon Serpents are best at tanking.
Repulsor: 24 hits
Serpent: 36 hits
The Serpent takes 50% more firepower *against the weapons it's best designed to take*
So in a few cases, the Serpent takes 50% more firepower. In a few cases, they're the same. But in most cases, the Repulsor takes much more firepower to put down - even double, in extreme cases!
This "The Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill per point" argument is another one of those sounds-good-in-your-head arguments that doesn't pan out. I'm sure fully supported, while not paying for the buffs, being shot by OC PGs inside Rapid Fire range, while outside 12" (why does that even come up?), in cover, etc a Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill than a fully debuffed Repulsor at point blank in the open. But generally, not even close. The Serpent is more durable per point, generally, sure. But not 4x.
This analysis is a little miss-leading, as a large chunk of a wave serpents protection is front loaded into its potentially -3 to hit debuff (most of the time -1). Because realistically, its almost always going to be an Alaitoc serpent, and if the user wants it to be durable, its going to be advancing with the upgrade to give it an additional -1, and if they really really want it alive, theyve got their additional -1 strat, and they can buy fnp for the thing, and still keep it in the approximately 50% cost category.
By picking bright lances we are also playing into the repulsors durability in T8, while if we picked something like a lascannon (which is a far more ubiquitous weapon), The wave serpent would also pull further ahead. Ultimately to provide a comprehensive anaylsis of durability vs weapons, we would probabaly have to have a huge sample size of weapons taken from event lists, and weight their relative 'survivability scores' vs the relative number of the weapons youre likely to face. But as we cant, its important to point out that all of the above weapons except the lasgun, favour the repulsors T8, while there are a great many anti vehicle weapons that would treat the wave serpents T7 equally to the Repulsor.
Bharring wrote: In what world is losing a Repulsor because you felt it should eat Smites a better idea than losing some Eliminators or Servitors?
I was running numbers for the generic case, but sure, lets get specific. The CWE list had:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: 4 wounds
6xStarCannons: 11 wounds
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: 4 wounds
3x Missiles: Might get another 2 wounds?
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC: Less than 1 wound
3xSL: Less than 1 wound
Add it all together? I'm counting 23W. Not even close to wiping 2 Repulsors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: T8 3+ 16W is actually very durable.
Doom comes very close to doubling that damage.
Without doom: 23W
With doom:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: Doom increases wounds taken on a 4+ by 50%. So that's +2W.
6xStarCannons: Doom increases wounds taken on a 5+ by 66%. So that's roughly +8W
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: A 5+ so another +2W
3x Missiles: 5+ so another +1W
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC + 3SL: another +1W
Rounding up (significantly) gives us +14W with full rerolls. Only one of the two repulsors can be Doomed, so only half the dakka gets it, making it (liberally) +7W.
Assuming Doom, which is a roughly 40% chance, brings you to *30*W. Still short of killing two Repulsors.
So not only does Doom only increase firepower by ~60% on the target affected - it only increases firepower vs the pair of Repulsors by *30%*.
And that's being very generous with the rounding.
Try running numbers before spouting nonsense. Doom is always less than *double* damage. And more often not in play in this situation.
It is not in the least bit durable. A wave serpant is almost 4 times as durable per point.
Really? Lets see how that works!
Vs Brightlances:
Repulsor: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (50% wound average 3.5D/W)
Wave Serpent: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (2/3 wound average 2.66D/W)
Roughly the same per model. The Serpent doesn't cost 4x the Repulsor.
Vs Boltguns:
Repulsor: Roughly 288 hits to kill
Serpent: 144 hits to kill
Repusor takes twice as many Boltgun rounds to kill
Lasguns:
Both take 288 hits to kill. Same here.
Plasma Guns (non-OCed)
Repulsor: 72 hits to kill
Serpent: 48 hits to kill
Again, Repulsor is much better off
Plasma Guns (OCed)
This is the weapon Serpents are best at tanking.
Repulsor: 24 hits
Serpent: 36 hits
The Serpent takes 50% more firepower *against the weapons it's best designed to take*
So in a few cases, the Serpent takes 50% more firepower. In a few cases, they're the same. But in most cases, the Repulsor takes much more firepower to put down - even double, in extreme cases!
This "The Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill per point" argument is another one of those sounds-good-in-your-head arguments that doesn't pan out. I'm sure fully supported, while not paying for the buffs, being shot by OC PGs inside Rapid Fire range, while outside 12" (why does that even come up?), in cover, etc a Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill than a fully debuffed Repulsor at point blank in the open. But generally, not even close. The Serpent is more durable per point, generally, sure. But not 4x.
This analysis is a little miss-leading, as a large chunk of a wave serpents protection is front loaded into its potentially -3 to hit debuff (most of the time -1). Because realistically, its almost always going to be an Alaitoc serpent, and if the user wants it to be durable, its going to be advancing with the upgrade to give it an additional -1, and if they really really want it alive, theyve got their additional -1 strat, and they can buy fnp for the thing, and still keep it in the approximately 50% cost category.
By picking bright lances we are also playing into the repulsors durability in T8, while if we picked something like a lascannon (which is a far more ubiquitous weapon), The wave serpent would also pull further ahead. Ultimately to provide a comprehensive anaylsis of durability vs weapons, we would probabaly have to have a huge sample size of weapons taken from event lists, and weight their relative 'survivability scores' vs the relative number of the weapons youre likely to face. But as we cant, its important to point out that all of the above weapons except the lasgun, favour the repulsors T8, while there are a great many anti vehicle weapons that would treat the wave serpents T7 equally to the Repulsor.
Some great points. I overreached in some cases in my response to some outlandish claims.
LasCannons do, indeed, kill a Repulsor 33% faster than a Serpent.
There's also the meta of Plasma - between Disintigrator Cannons, Starcannons, IoM Plasma, Spears, and Reapers, a great deal of AT currently used is actually S:less than 7 D2 - for which the Repulsor can be twice as vulnerable to. In those cases, the stock Repulsor approaches the 1/4th durability/pt of the stock Serpent (but doesn't quite get there).
While Serpents can be buffed up significantly for durability (>12" and Alaitoc, strat, and Engines upgrade, for instance - but not Conceal/etc), Repulsors can likewise be buffed up significantly for dakka.
My concern is all the FUD that goes on in this thread:
Upthread there's complaints about Doom always doubling the CWE force's firepower (despite only bumping it ~30%, and only doing that *~40%* of the time). In the same matchup, both Repulsors - and the Preds - are effectively doubled: most of their weapons are hitting on a 3+ or 4+ and wounding on a 5+ (shooting at vehicles). A 3+ followed by a 5+ is x2 factor. A 4+ followed by a 5+ is a x2.5 factor. In other words, the CWE's list's dakka is getting buffs bumping their dakka by about 12%, whereas the SM list is getting buffs bumping their dakka by over 100%. And the complaints are that the CWE dakka buffs are OP?
Upthread there's complaints that the Serpent is 4x as durable for the point. As shown above, it's roughly half the cost stock, and roughly as durable (wins some, loses some). It can approach twice as durable (thus hit 4x per point) in it's absolute best case, but not in most cases. The Serpent can be more durable (purchased upgrades, powers, strats, etc), but those have a cost, too.
Upthread there's complaints that the Repulsor should be much closer to the Serpent in price; there's no argument that they're close to eachother in durability per model, but the Serpent is no better a transport, and has only a fraction of the dakka.
TLDR: Yes, the Serpent is better per point. It's a flying brick. But the Repulsor is *much* better per model - so the two shouldn't be anywhere close in points.
(@secretForge - thank you for calling me out on this.)
Exalted for actually bringing arguments rather than drama.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Bharring wrote: In what world is losing a Repulsor because you felt it should eat Smites a better idea than losing some Eliminators or Servitors?
I was running numbers for the generic case, but sure, lets get specific. The CWE list had:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: 4 wounds
6xStarCannons: 11 wounds
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: 4 wounds
3x Missiles: Might get another 2 wounds?
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC: Less than 1 wound
3xSL: Less than 1 wound
Add it all together? I'm counting 23W. Not even close to wiping 2 Repulsors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: T8 3+ 16W is actually very durable.
Doom comes very close to doubling that damage.
Without doom: 23W
With doom:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: Doom increases wounds taken on a 4+ by 50%. So that's +2W.
6xStarCannons: Doom increases wounds taken on a 5+ by 66%. So that's roughly +8W
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: A 5+ so another +2W
3x Missiles: 5+ so another +1W
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC + 3SL: another +1W
Rounding up (significantly) gives us +14W with full rerolls. Only one of the two repulsors can be Doomed, so only half the dakka gets it, making it (liberally) +7W.
Assuming Doom, which is a roughly 40% chance, brings you to *30*W. Still short of killing two Repulsors.
So not only does Doom only increase firepower by ~60% on the target affected - it only increases firepower vs the pair of Repulsors by *30%*.
And that's being very generous with the rounding.
Try running numbers before spouting nonsense. Doom is always less than *double* damage. And more often not in play in this situation.
It is not in the least bit durable. A wave serpant is almost 4 times as durable per point.
Really? Lets see how that works!
Vs Brightlances:
Repulsor: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (50% wound average 3.5D/W)
Wave Serpent: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (2/3 wound average 2.66D/W)
Roughly the same per model. The Serpent doesn't cost 4x the Repulsor.
Vs Boltguns:
Repulsor: Roughly 288 hits to kill
Serpent: 144 hits to kill
Repusor takes twice as many Boltgun rounds to kill
Lasguns:
Both take 288 hits to kill. Same here.
Plasma Guns (non-OCed)
Repulsor: 72 hits to kill
Serpent: 48 hits to kill
Again, Repulsor is much better off
Plasma Guns (OCed)
This is the weapon Serpents are best at tanking.
Repulsor: 24 hits
Serpent: 36 hits
The Serpent takes 50% more firepower *against the weapons it's best designed to take*
So in a few cases, the Serpent takes 50% more firepower. In a few cases, they're the same. But in most cases, the Repulsor takes much more firepower to put down - even double, in extreme cases!
This "The Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill per point" argument is another one of those sounds-good-in-your-head arguments that doesn't pan out. I'm sure fully supported, while not paying for the buffs, being shot by OC PGs inside Rapid Fire range, while outside 12" (why does that even come up?), in cover, etc a Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill than a fully debuffed Repulsor at point blank in the open. But generally, not even close. The Serpent is more durable per point, generally, sure. But not 4x.
This analysis is a little miss-leading, as a large chunk of a wave serpents protection is front loaded into its potentially -3 to hit debuff (most of the time -1). Because realistically, its almost always going to be an Alaitoc serpent, and if the user wants it to be durable, its going to be advancing with the upgrade to give it an additional -1, and if they really really want it alive, theyve got their additional -1 strat, and they can buy fnp for the thing, and still keep it in the approximately 50% cost category.
By picking bright lances we are also playing into the repulsors durability in T8, while if we picked something like a lascannon (which is a far more ubiquitous weapon), The wave serpent would also pull further ahead. Ultimately to provide a comprehensive anaylsis of durability vs weapons, we would probabaly have to have a huge sample size of weapons taken from event lists, and weight their relative 'survivability scores' vs the relative number of the weapons youre likely to face. But as we cant, its important to point out that all of the above weapons except the lasgun, favour the repulsors T8, while there are a great many anti vehicle weapons that would treat the wave serpents T7 equally to the Repulsor.
Some great points. I overreached in some cases in my response to some outlandish claims.
LasCannons do, indeed, kill a Repulsor 33% faster than a Serpent.
There's also the meta of Plasma - between Disintigrator Cannons, Starcannons, IoM Plasma, Spears, and Reapers, a great deal of AT currently used is actually S:less than 7 D2 - for which the Repulsor can be twice as vulnerable to. In those cases, the stock Repulsor approaches the 1/4th durability/pt of the stock Serpent (but doesn't quite get there).
While Serpents can be buffed up significantly for durability (>12" and Alaitoc, strat, and Engines upgrade, for instance - but not Conceal/etc), Repulsors can likewise be buffed up significantly for dakka.
My concern is all the FUD that goes on in this thread:
Upthread there's complaints about Doom always doubling the CWE force's firepower (despite only bumping it ~30%, and only doing that *~40%* of the time). In the same matchup, both Repulsors - and the Preds - are effectively doubled: most of their weapons are hitting on a 3+ or 4+ and wounding on a 5+ (shooting at vehicles). A 3+ followed by a 5+ is x2 factor. A 4+ followed by a 5+ is a x2.5 factor. In other words, the CWE's list's dakka is getting buffs bumping their dakka by about 12%, whereas the SM list is getting buffs bumping their dakka by over 100%. And the complaints are that the CWE dakka buffs are OP?
Upthread there's complaints that the Serpent is 4x as durable for the point. As shown above, it's roughly half the cost stock, and roughly as durable (wins some, loses some). It can approach twice as durable (thus hit 4x per point) in it's absolute best case, but not in most cases. The Serpent can be more durable (purchased upgrades, powers, strats, etc), but those have a cost, too.
Upthread there's complaints that the Repulsor should be much closer to the Serpent in price; there's no argument that they're close to eachother in durability per model, but the Serpent is no better a transport, and has only a fraction of the dakka.
TLDR: Yes, the Serpent is better per point. It's a flying brick. But the Repulsor is *much* better per model - so the two shouldn't be anywhere close in points.
(@secretForge - thank you for calling me out on this.)
Again, they should be closer than they are. One of the problems with paying for weapons ala carte is that units like repulsors become extremely fragile per point and simultaneously a huge target.
You can make that assumption, but I've never seen foot Custodes do well anywhere. Many marine lists avoid the actual marines. Eldar avoid aspect warriors except for a couple of outliers. The difference between Eldar and marines is that marines have no outliers to exploit.
I could post a bunch of math, but it's been posted before. You either believe it or you don't.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/28 13:53:53
Maybe. I don't know all the tournament winners. I see them constantly get skunked either by getting shot or being outnumbered and failing to score obj, though. I think mathematically necron warriors through custodes are not a good place in 8th averaged across all cases.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/28 14:08:54
Bullgryns, priests, and command squads are a staple of many ITC top guard lists.
Aggressors are boss, and are as close to auto-include as you can get in SM pure lists.
ASSASSINS? Hello?
Fire Dragons?
Nobs?
So a bunch of 3W 3A infantry that basically have Thunderhammers which shoot OC Plasma with no chance of exploding, 2+W/BS, and 2+4++ for 52 points is crap?
Bharring wrote: In what world is losing a Repulsor because you felt it should eat Smites a better idea than losing some Eliminators or Servitors?
I was running numbers for the generic case, but sure, lets get specific. The CWE list had:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: 4 wounds
6xStarCannons: 11 wounds
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: 4 wounds
3x Missiles: Might get another 2 wounds?
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC: Less than 1 wound
3xSL: Less than 1 wound
Add it all together? I'm counting 23W. Not even close to wiping 2 Repulsors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: T8 3+ 16W is actually very durable.
Doom comes very close to doubling that damage.
Without doom: 23W
With doom:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: Doom increases wounds taken on a 4+ by 50%. So that's +2W.
6xStarCannons: Doom increases wounds taken on a 5+ by 66%. So that's roughly +8W
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: A 5+ so another +2W
3x Missiles: 5+ so another +1W
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC + 3SL: another +1W
Rounding up (significantly) gives us +14W with full rerolls. Only one of the two repulsors can be Doomed, so only half the dakka gets it, making it (liberally) +7W.
Assuming Doom, which is a roughly 40% chance, brings you to *30*W. Still short of killing two Repulsors.
So not only does Doom only increase firepower by ~60% on the target affected - it only increases firepower vs the pair of Repulsors by *30%*.
And that's being very generous with the rounding.
Try running numbers before spouting nonsense. Doom is always less than *double* damage. And more often not in play in this situation.
It is not in the least bit durable. A wave serpant is almost 4 times as durable per point.
Really? Lets see how that works!
Vs Brightlances:
Repulsor: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (50% wound average 3.5D/W)
Wave Serpent: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (2/3 wound average 2.66D/W)
Roughly the same per model. The Serpent doesn't cost 4x the Repulsor.
Vs Boltguns:
Repulsor: Roughly 288 hits to kill
Serpent: 144 hits to kill
Repusor takes twice as many Boltgun rounds to kill
Lasguns:
Both take 288 hits to kill. Same here.
Plasma Guns (non-OCed)
Repulsor: 72 hits to kill
Serpent: 48 hits to kill
Again, Repulsor is much better off
Plasma Guns (OCed)
This is the weapon Serpents are best at tanking.
Repulsor: 24 hits
Serpent: 36 hits
The Serpent takes 50% more firepower *against the weapons it's best designed to take*
So in a few cases, the Serpent takes 50% more firepower. In a few cases, they're the same. But in most cases, the Repulsor takes much more firepower to put down - even double, in extreme cases!
This "The Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill per point" argument is another one of those sounds-good-in-your-head arguments that doesn't pan out. I'm sure fully supported, while not paying for the buffs, being shot by OC PGs inside Rapid Fire range, while outside 12" (why does that even come up?), in cover, etc a Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill than a fully debuffed Repulsor at point blank in the open. But generally, not even close. The Serpent is more durable per point, generally, sure. But not 4x.
This analysis is a little miss-leading, as a large chunk of a wave serpents protection is front loaded into its potentially -3 to hit debuff (most of the time -1). Because realistically, its almost always going to be an Alaitoc serpent, and if the user wants it to be durable, its going to be advancing with the upgrade to give it an additional -1, and if they really really want it alive, theyve got their additional -1 strat, and they can buy fnp for the thing, and still keep it in the approximately 50% cost category.
By picking bright lances we are also playing into the repulsors durability in T8, while if we picked something like a lascannon (which is a far more ubiquitous weapon), The wave serpent would also pull further ahead. Ultimately to provide a comprehensive anaylsis of durability vs weapons, we would probabaly have to have a huge sample size of weapons taken from event lists, and weight their relative 'survivability scores' vs the relative number of the weapons youre likely to face. But as we cant, its important to point out that all of the above weapons except the lasgun, favour the repulsors T8, while there are a great many anti vehicle weapons that would treat the wave serpents T7 equally to the Repulsor.
Some great points. I overreached in some cases in my response to some outlandish claims.
LasCannons do, indeed, kill a Repulsor 33% faster than a Serpent.
There's also the meta of Plasma - between Disintigrator Cannons, Starcannons, IoM Plasma, Spears, and Reapers, a great deal of AT currently used is actually S:less than 7 D2 - for which the Repulsor can be twice as vulnerable to. In those cases, the stock Repulsor approaches the 1/4th durability/pt of the stock Serpent (but doesn't quite get there).
While Serpents can be buffed up significantly for durability (>12" and Alaitoc, strat, and Engines upgrade, for instance - but not Conceal/etc), Repulsors can likewise be buffed up significantly for dakka.
My concern is all the FUD that goes on in this thread:
Upthread there's complaints about Doom always doubling the CWE force's firepower (despite only bumping it ~30%, and only doing that *~40%* of the time). In the same matchup, both Repulsors - and the Preds - are effectively doubled: most of their weapons are hitting on a 3+ or 4+ and wounding on a 5+ (shooting at vehicles). A 3+ followed by a 5+ is x2 factor. A 4+ followed by a 5+ is a x2.5 factor. In other words, the CWE's list's dakka is getting buffs bumping their dakka by about 12%, whereas the SM list is getting buffs bumping their dakka by over 100%. And the complaints are that the CWE dakka buffs are OP?
Upthread there's complaints that the Serpent is 4x as durable for the point. As shown above, it's roughly half the cost stock, and roughly as durable (wins some, loses some). It can approach twice as durable (thus hit 4x per point) in it's absolute best case, but not in most cases. The Serpent can be more durable (purchased upgrades, powers, strats, etc), but those have a cost, too.
Upthread there's complaints that the Repulsor should be much closer to the Serpent in price; there's no argument that they're close to eachother in durability per model, but the Serpent is no better a transport, and has only a fraction of the dakka.
TLDR: Yes, the Serpent is better per point. It's a flying brick. But the Repulsor is *much* better per model - so the two shouldn't be anywhere close in points.
(@secretForge - thank you for calling me out on this.)
Again, they should be closer than they are. One of the problems with paying for weapons ala carte is that units like repulsors become extremely fragile per point and simultaneously a huge target.
A Guardsman and a Phantom Titan should be closer to eachother in points. But, like Serpent and Repulsor, should still be nowhere close to eachother.
Bharring wrote: In what world is losing a Repulsor because you felt it should eat Smites a better idea than losing some Eliminators or Servitors?
I was running numbers for the generic case, but sure, lets get specific. The CWE list had:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: 4 wounds
6xStarCannons: 11 wounds
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: 4 wounds
3x Missiles: Might get another 2 wounds?
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC: Less than 1 wound
3xSL: Less than 1 wound
Add it all together? I'm counting 23W. Not even close to wiping 2 Repulsors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: T8 3+ 16W is actually very durable.
Doom comes very close to doubling that damage.
Without doom: 23W
With doom:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: Doom increases wounds taken on a 4+ by 50%. So that's +2W.
6xStarCannons: Doom increases wounds taken on a 5+ by 66%. So that's roughly +8W
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: A 5+ so another +2W
3x Missiles: 5+ so another +1W
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC + 3SL: another +1W
Rounding up (significantly) gives us +14W with full rerolls. Only one of the two repulsors can be Doomed, so only half the dakka gets it, making it (liberally) +7W.
Assuming Doom, which is a roughly 40% chance, brings you to *30*W. Still short of killing two Repulsors.
So not only does Doom only increase firepower by ~60% on the target affected - it only increases firepower vs the pair of Repulsors by *30%*.
And that's being very generous with the rounding.
Try running numbers before spouting nonsense. Doom is always less than *double* damage. And more often not in play in this situation.
It is not in the least bit durable. A wave serpant is almost 4 times as durable per point.
Really? Lets see how that works!
Vs Brightlances:
Repulsor: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (50% wound average 3.5D/W)
Wave Serpent: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (2/3 wound average 2.66D/W)
Roughly the same per model. The Serpent doesn't cost 4x the Repulsor.
Vs Boltguns:
Repulsor: Roughly 288 hits to kill
Serpent: 144 hits to kill
Repusor takes twice as many Boltgun rounds to kill
Lasguns:
Both take 288 hits to kill. Same here.
Plasma Guns (non-OCed)
Repulsor: 72 hits to kill
Serpent: 48 hits to kill
Again, Repulsor is much better off
Plasma Guns (OCed)
This is the weapon Serpents are best at tanking.
Repulsor: 24 hits
Serpent: 36 hits
The Serpent takes 50% more firepower *against the weapons it's best designed to take*
So in a few cases, the Serpent takes 50% more firepower. In a few cases, they're the same. But in most cases, the Repulsor takes much more firepower to put down - even double, in extreme cases!
This "The Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill per point" argument is another one of those sounds-good-in-your-head arguments that doesn't pan out. I'm sure fully supported, while not paying for the buffs, being shot by OC PGs inside Rapid Fire range, while outside 12" (why does that even come up?), in cover, etc a Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill than a fully debuffed Repulsor at point blank in the open. But generally, not even close. The Serpent is more durable per point, generally, sure. But not 4x.
This analysis is a little miss-leading, as a large chunk of a wave serpents protection is front loaded into its potentially -3 to hit debuff (most of the time -1). Because realistically, its almost always going to be an Alaitoc serpent, and if the user wants it to be durable, its going to be advancing with the upgrade to give it an additional -1, and if they really really want it alive, theyve got their additional -1 strat, and they can buy fnp for the thing, and still keep it in the approximately 50% cost category.
By picking bright lances we are also playing into the repulsors durability in T8, while if we picked something like a lascannon (which is a far more ubiquitous weapon), The wave serpent would also pull further ahead. Ultimately to provide a comprehensive anaylsis of durability vs weapons, we would probabaly have to have a huge sample size of weapons taken from event lists, and weight their relative 'survivability scores' vs the relative number of the weapons youre likely to face. But as we cant, its important to point out that all of the above weapons except the lasgun, favour the repulsors T8, while there are a great many anti vehicle weapons that would treat the wave serpents T7 equally to the Repulsor.
Some great points. I overreached in some cases in my response to some outlandish claims.
LasCannons do, indeed, kill a Repulsor 33% faster than a Serpent.
There's also the meta of Plasma - between Disintigrator Cannons, Starcannons, IoM Plasma, Spears, and Reapers, a great deal of AT currently used is actually S:less than 7 D2 - for which the Repulsor can be twice as vulnerable to. In those cases, the stock Repulsor approaches the 1/4th durability/pt of the stock Serpent (but doesn't quite get there).
While Serpents can be buffed up significantly for durability (>12" and Alaitoc, strat, and Engines upgrade, for instance - but not Conceal/etc), Repulsors can likewise be buffed up significantly for dakka.
My concern is all the FUD that goes on in this thread:
Upthread there's complaints about Doom always doubling the CWE force's firepower (despite only bumping it ~30%, and only doing that *~40%* of the time). In the same matchup, both Repulsors - and the Preds - are effectively doubled: most of their weapons are hitting on a 3+ or 4+ and wounding on a 5+ (shooting at vehicles). A 3+ followed by a 5+ is x2 factor. A 4+ followed by a 5+ is a x2.5 factor. In other words, the CWE's list's dakka is getting buffs bumping their dakka by about 12%, whereas the SM list is getting buffs bumping their dakka by over 100%. And the complaints are that the CWE dakka buffs are OP?
Upthread there's complaints that the Serpent is 4x as durable for the point. As shown above, it's roughly half the cost stock, and roughly as durable (wins some, loses some). It can approach twice as durable (thus hit 4x per point) in it's absolute best case, but not in most cases. The Serpent can be more durable (purchased upgrades, powers, strats, etc), but those have a cost, too.
Upthread there's complaints that the Repulsor should be much closer to the Serpent in price; there's no argument that they're close to eachother in durability per model, but the Serpent is no better a transport, and has only a fraction of the dakka.
TLDR: Yes, the Serpent is better per point. It's a flying brick. But the Repulsor is *much* better per model - so the two shouldn't be anywhere close in points.
(@secretForge - thank you for calling me out on this.)
Again, they should be closer than they are. One of the problems with paying for weapons ala carte is that units like repulsors become extremely fragile per point and simultaneously a huge target.
A Guardsman and a Phantom Titan should be closer to eachother in points. But, like Serpent and Repulsor, should still be nowhere close to eachother.
We might disagree on the magnitude. The repulsor is quite fragile at its current price point.
Bharring wrote: In what world is losing a Repulsor because you felt it should eat Smites a better idea than losing some Eliminators or Servitors?
I was running numbers for the generic case, but sure, lets get specific. The CWE list had:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: 4 wounds
6xStarCannons: 11 wounds
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: 4 wounds
3x Missiles: Might get another 2 wounds?
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC: Less than 1 wound
3xSL: Less than 1 wound
Add it all together? I'm counting 23W. Not even close to wiping 2 Repulsors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: T8 3+ 16W is actually very durable.
Doom comes very close to doubling that damage.
Without doom: 23W
With doom:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: Doom increases wounds taken on a 4+ by 50%. So that's +2W.
6xStarCannons: Doom increases wounds taken on a 5+ by 66%. So that's roughly +8W
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: A 5+ so another +2W
3x Missiles: 5+ so another +1W
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC + 3SL: another +1W
Rounding up (significantly) gives us +14W with full rerolls. Only one of the two repulsors can be Doomed, so only half the dakka gets it, making it (liberally) +7W.
Assuming Doom, which is a roughly 40% chance, brings you to *30*W. Still short of killing two Repulsors.
So not only does Doom only increase firepower by ~60% on the target affected - it only increases firepower vs the pair of Repulsors by *30%*.
And that's being very generous with the rounding.
Try running numbers before spouting nonsense. Doom is always less than *double* damage. And more often not in play in this situation.
It is not in the least bit durable. A wave serpant is almost 4 times as durable per point.
Really? Lets see how that works!
Vs Brightlances:
Repulsor: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (50% wound average 3.5D/W)
Wave Serpent: Roughly 9 Brightlance hits to kill it (2/3 wound average 2.66D/W)
Roughly the same per model. The Serpent doesn't cost 4x the Repulsor.
Vs Boltguns:
Repulsor: Roughly 288 hits to kill
Serpent: 144 hits to kill
Repusor takes twice as many Boltgun rounds to kill
Lasguns:
Both take 288 hits to kill. Same here.
Plasma Guns (non-OCed)
Repulsor: 72 hits to kill
Serpent: 48 hits to kill
Again, Repulsor is much better off
Plasma Guns (OCed)
This is the weapon Serpents are best at tanking.
Repulsor: 24 hits
Serpent: 36 hits
The Serpent takes 50% more firepower *against the weapons it's best designed to take*
So in a few cases, the Serpent takes 50% more firepower. In a few cases, they're the same. But in most cases, the Repulsor takes much more firepower to put down - even double, in extreme cases!
This "The Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill per point" argument is another one of those sounds-good-in-your-head arguments that doesn't pan out. I'm sure fully supported, while not paying for the buffs, being shot by OC PGs inside Rapid Fire range, while outside 12" (why does that even come up?), in cover, etc a Serpent takes 4x the firepower to kill than a fully debuffed Repulsor at point blank in the open. But generally, not even close. The Serpent is more durable per point, generally, sure. But not 4x.
This analysis is a little miss-leading, as a large chunk of a wave serpents protection is front loaded into its potentially -3 to hit debuff (most of the time -1). Because realistically, its almost always going to be an Alaitoc serpent, and if the user wants it to be durable, its going to be advancing with the upgrade to give it an additional -1, and if they really really want it alive, theyve got their additional -1 strat, and they can buy fnp for the thing, and still keep it in the approximately 50% cost category.
By picking bright lances we are also playing into the repulsors durability in T8, while if we picked something like a lascannon (which is a far more ubiquitous weapon), The wave serpent would also pull further ahead. Ultimately to provide a comprehensive anaylsis of durability vs weapons, we would probabaly have to have a huge sample size of weapons taken from event lists, and weight their relative 'survivability scores' vs the relative number of the weapons youre likely to face. But as we cant, its important to point out that all of the above weapons except the lasgun, favour the repulsors T8, while there are a great many anti vehicle weapons that would treat the wave serpents T7 equally to the Repulsor.
Some great points. I overreached in some cases in my response to some outlandish claims.
LasCannons do, indeed, kill a Repulsor 33% faster than a Serpent.
There's also the meta of Plasma - between Disintigrator Cannons, Starcannons, IoM Plasma, Spears, and Reapers, a great deal of AT currently used is actually S:less than 7 D2 - for which the Repulsor can be twice as vulnerable to. In those cases, the stock Repulsor approaches the 1/4th durability/pt of the stock Serpent (but doesn't quite get there).
While Serpents can be buffed up significantly for durability (>12" and Alaitoc, strat, and Engines upgrade, for instance - but not Conceal/etc), Repulsors can likewise be buffed up significantly for dakka.
My concern is all the FUD that goes on in this thread:
Upthread there's complaints about Doom always doubling the CWE force's firepower (despite only bumping it ~30%, and only doing that *~40%* of the time). In the same matchup, both Repulsors - and the Preds - are effectively doubled: most of their weapons are hitting on a 3+ or 4+ and wounding on a 5+ (shooting at vehicles). A 3+ followed by a 5+ is x2 factor. A 4+ followed by a 5+ is a x2.5 factor. In other words, the CWE's list's dakka is getting buffs bumping their dakka by about 12%, whereas the SM list is getting buffs bumping their dakka by over 100%. And the complaints are that the CWE dakka buffs are OP?
Upthread there's complaints that the Serpent is 4x as durable for the point. As shown above, it's roughly half the cost stock, and roughly as durable (wins some, loses some). It can approach twice as durable (thus hit 4x per point) in it's absolute best case, but not in most cases. The Serpent can be more durable (purchased upgrades, powers, strats, etc), but those have a cost, too.
Upthread there's complaints that the Repulsor should be much closer to the Serpent in price; there's no argument that they're close to eachother in durability per model, but the Serpent is no better a transport, and has only a fraction of the dakka.
TLDR: Yes, the Serpent is better per point. It's a flying brick. But the Repulsor is *much* better per model - so the two shouldn't be anywhere close in points.
(@secretForge - thank you for calling me out on this.)
Again, they should be closer than they are. One of the problems with paying for weapons ala carte is that units like repulsors become extremely fragile per point and simultaneously a huge target.
A Guardsman and a Phantom Titan should be closer to eachother in points. But, like Serpent and Repulsor, should still be nowhere close to eachother.
We might disagree on the magnitude. The repulsor is quite fragile at its current price point.
Honest question:
When you say "fragile" are you talking about the ease at which it can be destroyed, or the fact that it CAN be destroyed in one turn? Because aren't those sort of the same thing?
Further point, if we gave this a 5++, for no points increase, would you then lean more towards this being a good unit, or would you still be opposed? What, if I may, in list form, changes would turn this from a bad unit in your eyes, to a good unit? No restrictions.
Fragile for its cost. Not in absolute terms. Most repulsors clock in around 17-18 points per wound, which is really high. It's already super weak vs mortal wounds because of this. Now lump in no invuln, and it starts looking grim indeed.
A 5++ would make it better, as it cuts everything down to AP -2 at worst at that point. Of course, this would contribute to the death knell of weapons that pay for AP. I'd rather the thing just had more wounds. If it had 24 wounds, it would be down to 11-13 points per wound, which is more in line with successful vehicles in 40K.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/28 15:24:28
Of the GW Knights, Questoris top at 22.29 PPW.
Dominous, 25.14 PPW.
They're much more susceptible to mortal wounds than a Repulsor is, and have much less in-Codex screening. Even with their 5+ FNP Strat (which I think Space Marines might have-or is that just for Dreads?) they're not that much better.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
