Speculation on the Repulsor Executioner.

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**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
290 seems quite good. Too good, at the moment.
You are in flat denial about the value of things. Compare it to a plasma commander. 187 points
You get
2d6 str 8 ap-3 flat 2 damage
2d3 str 8 ap-3 flat 2 damage
A heavy bolter
Plus a storm bolter.

You get tank orders.

So what does the repulsor get? for roughly 100 more points?
Pros
Fly Keyword
slightly better plasma
15 str 5ap-1
6 ap-1 str 4 shots
4 str 4 ap0 shots -
2 str 6 ap-1 d3 shots
+4 wounds
Transport 6 units

Cons
-2 2d3 plasma shots
No tank orders
No army traits

Summary - you trade about 25 chaff shots for 2 plasma cannons and gain fly keyword and some transport and 4 wounds. Maybe a 50-60 points increase (being generous) not even close to 100.

25 chaff shots *and Fly* should be only 50-60 points?
SC Serpents get 9 chaff shots (and fly). And you complain about *their* dakka.

Your trading chaff shots for quality multi damage shots in this example. Obviosuly the repuslor has more firepower. Its average damage vs anything with an armor save or reasonable toughness is going to be about equivalent. I don't even need to do the math to know that. You are basically comparing 2 plasmacannons to 5 heavy bolters and 2 stubbers and a storm bolter. It is not that significant. 100 points is significant.

**Lemondish**

Martel732 wrote:

Cute, but incorrect. 18 pts/w is too high for the way 8th plays currently.

Naw, it's fine. 18ppw is decent for its offensive output and capabilities.

**Xenomancers**

Insectum7 wrote:
The Bajillion "chaff shots" and the Fly keyword are quite valuable, imo. Particularly that Fly Keyword.

At the moment it looks very close to a flying Landraider with more AT capability, and way more defensive-fire capability. That's why less-than-a-Land-Raider seems very good.

A landraider is terrible. Possibly the worst unit in the entire game. It is also overpriced by about 60 points. Have you seen a Custdard flying tank? Literally better than a landraider and costs about 60 points less. Unless you really think transport capacity is worth that much. Heres a hint though. It's not. Transport capacity is like a 10-20 point upgrade at best.

**Martel732**

Lemondish wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Cute, but incorrect. 18 pts/w is too high for the way 8th plays currently.

Naw, it's fine. 18ppw is decent for its offensive output and capabilities.

The offense doesn't matter on the opponent's turn. No invuln, no FNP, no 2+ should never be 18 ppw. Regardless of the weaponry on it; within reason. Plus, its' getting offense from AP -4 which also decreases its value. It's the same thing as the GK fallacy. GK pay a lot for features that do nothing on the opponent's turn, making them overpriced.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
The Bajillion "chaff shots" and the Fly keyword are quite valuable, imo. Particularly that Fly Keyword.

At the moment it looks very close to a flying Landraider with more AT capability, and way more defensive-fire capability. That's why less-than-a-Land-Raider seems very good.

A landraider is terrible. Possibly the worst unit in the entire game. It is also overpriced by about 60 points. Have you seen a Custdard flying tank? Literally better than a landraider and costs about 60 points less. Unless you really think transport capacity is worth that much. Heres a hint though. It's not. Transport capacity is like a 10-20 point upgrade at best.

I can think of several units worse than the land raider

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:

Cute, but incorrect. 18 pts/w is too high for the way 8th plays currently.

Dark Reapers are 34 (?) points per wound? They must be terrible.

**Xenomancers**

Lemondish wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Cute, but incorrect. 18 pts/w is too high for the way 8th plays currently.

Naw, it's fine. 18ppw is decent for its offensive output and capabilities.

Why must you spout nonsense? It's not just PPW ether. It's effective wounds. Repsulor denies practically 0 damage from anti tank weapons. Most the time it gets only a 6+ save. So not only really high points per wound - almost 0 ability to deny damage. It's basically the juiciest target on the battlefield no matter what. which is not to be confused with other units not being good. It's just the least protected valuable target no matter what.

**Martel732**

Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Cute, but incorrect. 18 pts/w is too high for the way 8th plays currently.

Dark Reapers are 34 (?) points per wound? They must be terrible.

They are a notable exception because of all the rules they get. Rules that help them live, in particular. Repulsor gets no such rules. They are the exception that proves the rule. You need dark reaper levels of absurdity to justify that kind of cost. For example, I give space marine with missile launcher. 33 pts/wound, terrible model.

**Insectum7**

Xenomancers wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
The Bajillion "chaff shots" and the Fly keyword are quite valuable, imo. Particularly that Fly Keyword.

At the moment it looks very close to a flying Landraider with more AT capability, and way more defensive-fire capability. That's why less-than-a-Land-Raider seems very good.

A landraider is terrible. Possibly the worst unit in the entire game. It is also overpriced by about 60 points. Have you seen a Custdard flying tank? Literally better than a landraider and costs about 60 points less. Unless you really think transport capacity is worth that much. Heres a hint though. It's not. Transport capacity is like a 10-20 point upgrade at best.

I hope you don't mind if I don't take your word for it.

**Xenomancers**

Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Cute, but incorrect. 18 pts/w is too high for the way 8th plays currently.

Dark Reapers are 34 (?) points per wound? They must be terrible.

They would be pretty bad if not for the fact you can't actually shoot them and when you can they get an on demand -1 to hit and probably a 1+ save too or a 5+ FNP.

**Martel732**

Okay: 18 points per wound with no ameliorating factors. Better?

**Lemondish**

Xenomancers wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Cute, but incorrect. 18 pts/w is too high for the way 8th plays currently.

Naw, it's fine. 18ppw is decent for its offensive output and capabilities.

Why must you spout nonsense? It's not just PPW ether. It's effective wounds. Repsulor denies practically 0 damage from anti tank weapons. Most the time it gets only a 6+ save. So not only really high points per wound - almost 0 ability to deny damage. It's basically the juiciest target on the battlefield no matter what. which is not to be confused with other units not being good. It's just the least protected valuable target no matter what.

Why must you be so condescending? It's a fine unit and I'm sorry you can't see that.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay: 18 points per wound with no ameliorating factors. Better?

Sure, whatever you say

It would still be good though.

**Martel732**

It's not, though. It's a liability on your opponent's turn. GW constantly forgets their own game paradigm of IGOUGO. If it was just shooting on the marine turn and couldn't be shot back, then yes, the cost seems fine.

**Xenomancers**

Insectum7 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
The Bajillion "chaff shots" and the Fly keyword are quite valuable, imo. Particularly that Fly Keyword.

At the moment it looks very close to a flying Landraider with more AT capability, and way more defensive-fire capability. That's why less-than-a-Land-Raider seems very good.

A landraider is terrible. Possibly the worst unit in the entire game. It is also overpriced by about 60 points. Have you seen a Custdard flying tank? Literally better than a landraider and costs about 60 points less. Unless you really think transport capacity is worth that much. Heres a hint though. It's not. Transport capacity is like a 10-20 point upgrade at best.

I hope you don't mind if I don't take your word for it.

Transport has almost no advantage over deep strike. Other than turn 1 protection where you can act turn 1 - it's a trade off for mobility though - DS gets you a lot farther. Reivers (a bad unit) pay about 20 points for a unit of 10 to DS. Lots of units get the ability for free. Niche examples where your opponent is walking into your threat range (rare and stupid) transports can offer another advantage too - it's also a trade off you can be destroyed on a roll of a 1 if inside of a transport.

**Lemondish**

Martel732 wrote:
It's not, though. It's a liability on your opponent's turn. GW constantly forgets their own game paradigm of IGOUGO. If it was just shooting on the marine turn and couldn't be shot back, then yes, the cost seems fine.

Sure, it's a glass cannon against armies that field lots of ways to handle T8 platforms.

But it's still good at 290 points for the HLD though.

**Martel732**

My BA are fresh out of ways to deep strike aggressors, though. That being said, the transport rules SUCK for elite models.

**Lemondish**

Insectum7 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
The Bajillion "chaff shots" and the Fly keyword are quite valuable, imo. Particularly that Fly Keyword.

At the moment it looks very close to a flying Landraider with more AT capability, and way more defensive-fire capability. That's why less-than-a-Land-Raider seems very good.

A landraider is terrible. Possibly the worst unit in the entire game. It is also overpriced by about 60 points. Have you seen a Custdard flying tank? Literally better than a landraider and costs about 60 points less. Unless you really think transport capacity is worth that much. Heres a hint though. It's not. Transport capacity is like a 10-20 point upgrade at best.

I hope you don't mind if I don't take your word for it.

Oh, he'll mind. You basically just personally attacked him.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

That really licks my bacon bits, about the no DW. Whelp, there go my two purchases...

**Martel732**

Lemondish wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
It's not, though. It's a liability on your opponent's turn. GW constantly forgets their own game paradigm of IGOUGO. If it was just shooting on the marine turn and couldn't be shot back, then yes, the cost seems fine.

Sure, it's a glass cannon against armies that field lots of ways to handle T8 platforms.

But it's still good at 290 points for the HLD though.

290 and glass cannon don't go together. Not in 8th. Non invuln, non FNP, no - to hit should really be capped at 15 point per wound (maybe less) regardless of its armament. Unless that armament is absurd, which is not the case here. In fact,this thing is gimped by the most ubiquitous defense: invulns.

It's only acceptable at 290 if your opponent does't get to go.

**Xenomancers**

Lemondish wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Cute, but incorrect. 18 pts/w is too high for the way 8th plays currently.

Naw, it's fine. 18ppw is decent for its offensive output and capabilities.

Why must you spout nonsense? It's not just PPW ether. It's effective wounds. Repsulor denies practically 0 damage from anti tank weapons. Most the time it gets only a 6+ save. So not only really high points per wound - almost 0 ability to deny damage. It's basically the juiciest target on the battlefield no matter what. which is not to be confused with other units not being good. It's just the least protected valuable target no matter what.

Why must you be so condescending? It's a fine unit and I'm sorry you can't see that.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay: 18 points per wound with no ameliorating factors. Better?

Sure, whatever you say It would still be good though.

Sorry I meant no offense. I wasn't attacking you personally. I am attacking the idea that nearly 300 point units should have the effective durability of 2 rhinos which are over costed at 70. They should actually cost 50 points max.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
The Bajillion "chaff shots" and the Fly keyword are quite valuable, imo. Particularly that Fly Keyword.

At the moment it looks very close to a flying Landraider with more AT capability, and way more defensive-fire capability. That's why less-than-a-Land-Raider seems very good.

A landraider is terrible. Possibly the worst unit in the entire game. It is also overpriced by about 60 points. Have you seen a Custdard flying tank? Literally better than a landraider and costs about 60 points less. Unless you really think transport capacity is worth that much. Heres a hint though. It's not. Transport capacity is like a 10-20 point upgrade at best.

I hope you don't mind if I don't take your word for it.

Oh, he'll mind. You basically just personally attacked him.

Imagine being passionate about something. With people spitting on that something regularly without seeing it as a problem. Yeah. It bothers me to see people being unfair about a game because of whatever reason. Why exactly are you guys okay with marines being awful? Keep in mind I play every army.

**Lemondish**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That really licks my bacon bits, about the no DW. Whelp, there go my two purchases...

Naw, don't worry about that at all. The Primaris instruction booklets for every multi-part kit released thus far fail to mention the other non-Codex chapters. The initial release wave came with that PDF that explained what limitations or what keywords to swap out for back then, so I imagine that'll be the case here too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
It's not, though. It's a liability on your opponent's turn. GW constantly forgets their own game paradigm of IGOUGO. If it was just shooting on the marine turn and couldn't be shot back, then yes, the cost seems fine.

Sure, it's a glass cannon against armies that field lots of ways to handle T8 platforms.

But it's still good at 290 points for the HLD though.

290 and glass cannon don't go together. Not in 8th. Non invuln, non FNP, no - to hit should really be capped at 15 point per wound (maybe less) regardless of its armament. Unless that armament is absurd, which is not the case here. In fact,this thing is gimped by the most ubiquitous defense: invulns.

It's only acceptable at 290 if your opponent does't get to go.

Let's agree on the following statement and then move on:

"This is a unit that you can play in a game of Warhammer 40k"

Best I can do

**Insectum7**

Xenomancers wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
The Bajillion "chaff shots" and the Fly keyword are quite valuable, imo. Particularly that Fly Keyword.

At the moment it looks very close to a flying Landraider with more AT capability, and way more defensive-fire capability. That's why less-than-a-Land-Raider seems very good.

A landraider is terrible. Possibly the worst unit in the entire game. It is also overpriced by about 60 points. Have you seen a Custdard flying tank? Literally better than a landraider and costs about 60 points less. Unless you really think transport capacity is worth that much. Heres a hint though. It's not. Transport capacity is like a 10-20 point upgrade at best.

I hope you don't mind if I don't take your word for it.

Transport has almost no advantage over deep strike. Other than turn 1 protection where you can act turn 1 - it's a trade off for mobility though - DS gets you a lot farther. Reivers (a bad unit) pay about 20 points for a unit of 10 to DS. Lots of units get the ability for free. Niche examples where your opponent is walking into your threat range (rare and stupid) transports can offer another advantage too - it's also a trade off you can be destroyed on a roll of a 1 if inside of a transport.

You misunderstand me. I don't take your word for any of your claims. The Land Raider being the worst unit in the game, being overcost by 60, the Flying Custodes tank being "outright better" etc. any of it. If you toned the hyperbole back or backed up your claims with some actual data, then maybe we could have a conversation. But posts like that are just not worth answering.

I've played against the Custodes tank, it's ok. But T7 3+ is a far, far cry form T8 2+. I've killed those things with Termagants. T8 is a big jump for many AT solutions. S7 and 8 are hit hard.

**Lemondish**

Xenomancers wrote:

Imagine being passionate about something. With people spitting on that something regularly without seeing it as a problem.

Indeed.

**Martel732**

I don't understand why people are glazing over the glass cannon problem.

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
I don't understand why people are glazing over the glass cannon problem.

I'm not so sure it's a glass cannon when it can hit models from 72" away. I'm looking at it form the perspective that it can function as a tank killer at extreme range, but has the defensive capability to protect itself from stuff that could normally be used to shut something like that down. Land Raiders have that irritating problem where if a model touches it, it stops firing, and it's Heavy Bolters can't stop units threatening to contact it. On the right table, I can see the RE being pretty tough to interfere with.

**Xenomancers**

Keep in mind Im probably gonna buy 2 of these. They are going to get blown up on turn 1 - probably both of them. Joy and expectation will be sucked from my soul. All the hard work of painting them and building them will trivialized by bad rules and lack of fun. When I damage enemy units they get a save and I don't. Talk about unfun.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't understand why people are glazing over the glass cannon problem.

It's a version of stockholm syndrome. I think.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't understand why people are glazing over the glass cannon problem.

I'm not so sure it's a glass cannon when it can hit models from 72" away. I'm looking at it form the perspective that it can function as a tank killer at extreme range, but has the defensive capability to protect itself from stuff that could normally be used to shut something like that down. Land Raiders have that irritating problem where if a model touches it, it stops firing, and it's Heavy Bolters can't stop units threatening to contact it. On the right table, I can see the RE being pretty tough to interfere with.

Do we play the same game? I am often assault turn 1 by shinning spears deploy literally as far away as I possibly can. You can't hide...if they can see an antenna you can be shot.

**fraser1191**

Insectum7 wrote:
290 seems quite good. Too good, at the moment.

I wouldn't say too good. I'd say it's what I expected to be honest, a little under 300. I think that Primaris phase 2 is where slots are gonna get real competitive between classic marines and Primaris

**Lemondish**

Martel732 wrote:
I don't understand why people are glazing over the glass cannon problem.

It's a weakness I am fully cognizant of and can very easily and adeptly minimize. I am not at all concerned about it.

fraser1191 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
290 seems quite good. Too good, at the moment.

I wouldn't say too good. I'd say it's what I expected to be honest, a little under 300. I think that Primaris phase 2 is where slots are gonna get real competitive between classic marines and Primaris

I've long felt that Stratagem support will always be the key that makes or breaks a lot of these new elite Primaris units. Exactly like it did with Knights.

**Martel732**

It's not up to you, though.

**Lemondish**

Martel732 wrote:
It's not up to you, though.

Sure it is. Provided we're playing on a board with adequate terrain - you know, a game of Warhammer 40k - then it will be no sweat to mitigate the relative lack of durability against tank hunting weapons. That's 40k 101 my man.

**Bharring**

Martel732 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
It's not, though. It's a liability on your opponent's turn. GW constantly forgets their own game paradigm of IGOUGO. If it was just shooting on the marine turn and couldn't be shot back, then yes, the cost seems fine.

Sure, it's a glass cannon against armies that field lots of ways to handle T8 platforms.

But it's still good at 290 points for the HLD though.

290 and glass cannon don't go together. Not in 8th. Non invuln, non FNP, no - to hit should really be capped at 15 point per wound (maybe less) regardless of its armament. Unless that armament is absurd, which is not the case here. In fact,this thing is gimped by the most ubiquitous defense: invulns.

It's only acceptable at 290 if your opponent does't get to go.

That's why max-size Spectre, Reaper, and Spears squads have been so garbage this edition....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay: 18 points per wound with no ameliorating factors. Better?

T8 3+ is not an ameliorating factor?