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Martel732 wrote:
That's not cheap at all. Do the math per wound.

Naw, it's good. It has some great defensive stats at T8 and 3+.

Bharring wrote:
Kraetor,
I don't think you realize what I'm arguing.

I'm not saying this vehicle is OP, or that those options or trash.

I'm trying to show that the specific claim that anything 18ppw or higher is going to be worthless.

All three of the above have been great at 18ppw or higher. And while they had other rules, they didn't have T8.

Why are you comparing the durability of 16 wound tanks to one wound infantry?

A significant portion of tanks durability is mitigated by multidamage weapons. D6 damage weapon gets a single wound through and it can do almost 100 points of damage a lascannon can't do that to a dark reaper unit. You know this. You are arguing in bad faith here.


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KurtAngle2 wrote:
293 Points with Laser, 284 with Plasma Incinerator.

Seems cheap as feth and honestly wouldn't be taking any other anti-vehicle units

Hows that cheap it's like 70 points more than the custodes flying tank. Which has an invun save - hits on 2's with lots of firepower and all the special rules of the repulsor.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Hows that cheap it's like 70 points more than the custodes flying tank. Which has an invun save - hits on 2's with lots of firepower and all the special rules of the repulsor.

I am not even going to bother comparing with Beta rules where that one particular unit is clearly and obviously undercosted. Pretty much everything in the game will look overcosted by comparison with that Beta rule, that does not invalidate everything else in the game.



As for the repulsor executioner, seems costed well enough to be competitive if you build a list around it properly. As always if you just throw one randomly into a list it will fail to be worth the points.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Hows that cheap it's like 70 points more than the custodes flying tank. Which has an invun save - hits on 2's with lots of firepower and all the special rules of the repulsor.

I am not even going to bother comparing with Beta rules where that one particular unit is clearly and obviously undercosted. Pretty much everything in the game will look overcosted by comparison with that Beta rule, that does not invalidate everything else in the game.



As for the repulsor executioner, seems costed well enough to be competitive if you build a list around it properly. As always if you just throw one randomly into a list it will fail to be worth the points.

Exactly this; we all know that unit is going to change and get costed appropriately (that's what Beta rules exist for) so I wouldn't really compare anything with it

 Xenomancers wrote:

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KurtAngle2 wrote:
293 Points with Laser, 284 with Plasma Incinerator.

Seems cheap as feth and honestly wouldn't be taking any other anti-vehicle units

Hows that cheap it's like 70 points more than the custodes flying tank. Which has an invun save - hits on 2's with lots of firepower and all the special rules of the repulsor.

It's also a whole 100 points more than a Predator for +1T, a couple extra wounds, and some marginal carrying capacity. 293 is probably too much.

A TC is 184, and while this guy is appreciably better than a TC, he's not a whole 100 points better.

250 points sounds like a more reasonable level, but so far most primaris stuff has been hideously overcosted on release, and then tuned up over the course of multiple patches. Maybe fear of power creep?

DA will use this.
Cawl's wrath on a tank that can also transport the hellblasters? Yes please.

Spoletta wrote:
DA will use this.
Cawl's wrath on a tank that can also transport the hellblasters? Yes please.

I think you mean Weapons of the Dark Age, but I agree. That's pretty spicy.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
293 Points with Laser, 284 with Plasma Incinerator.

Seems cheap as feth and honestly wouldn't be taking any other anti-vehicle units

Take three. Seriously. This is the kind of unit that needs saturation to shine

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's not cheap at all. Do the math per wound.

Naw, it's good. It has some great defensive stats at T8 and 3+.

Knights are a gatekeeper list.
No competitive list will have a problem killing T8 3+ models at a rate of atleast 1 per turn.

In a world where people are not building to deal with Knights you might have a point, but we don't live in that world.

Lemondish wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
DA will use this.
Cawl's wrath on a tank that can also transport the hellblasters? Yes please.

I think you mean Weapons of the Dark Age, but I agree. That's pretty spicy.

What he means is that with WotDA it basically becomes a Cawls Wrath.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

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KurtAngle2 wrote:
293 Points with Laser, 284 with Plasma Incinerator.

Seems cheap as feth and honestly wouldn't be taking any other anti-vehicle units

Hows that cheap it's like 70 points more than the custodes flying tank. Which has an invun save - hits on 2's with lots of firepower and all the special rules of the repulsor.

It's also a whole 100 points more than a Predator for +1T, a couple extra wounds, and some marginal carrying capacity. 293 is probably too much.

A TC is 184, and while this guy is appreciably better than a TC, he's not a whole 100 points better.

250 points sounds like a more reasonable level, but so far most primaris stuff has been hideously overcosted on release, and then tuned up over the course of multiple patches. Maybe fear of power creep?

See, i dunno. The laser double-shooting gives it similar AT to a Predator. But then it also has 26(ish?) extra shots, many of them Heavy Bolter/Assault Cannon equivalent. Like, a Las-Pred, with two Razorbacks stacked on top of it. That's worth quite a bit, imo.

 Ordana wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's not cheap at all. Do the math per wound.

Naw, it's good. It has some great defensive stats at T8 and 3+.

Knights are a gatekeeper list.
No competitive list will have a problem killing T8 3+ models at a rate of atleast 1 per turn.

In a world where people are not building to deal with Knights you might have a point, but we don't live in that world.

Yeah, but it's still fine though. Repulsors and Predators won a GT after all.

Almost everything that was super efficient at killing Knights that quickly was nerfed, including Knights.

These guys will do just fine.

I agree that its at least 50 points overcosted. Did anyone notice the error on the damage table ? It looks like it says WS next to BS, which should be A, i believe. Surely this tank doesnt have a WS of D6 or even 1 when it gets damaged. Way to go GW, even more mistakes before a product is released

 p5freak wrote:
I agree that its at least 50 points overcosted. Did anyone notice the error on the damage table ? It looks like it says WS next to BS, which should be A, i believe. Surely this tank doesnt have a WS of D6 or even 1 when it gets damaged. Way to go GW, even more mistakes before a product is released

well it's ahrd to make mistakes after a product is released

stratigo wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
293 Points with Laser, 284 with Plasma Incinerator.

Seems cheap as feth and honestly wouldn't be taking any other anti-vehicle units

Take three. Seriously. This is the kind of unit that needs saturation to shine

I am not exactly taking three of them, but my initial plan for my Primaris only army is to have an executioner, repulsor, and a stormraven. And yeah, I know I can't take Primaris in the stormraven. It is basically an attack helicopter. My army is a long, long way from being tuned and will probably never be anything close to high tier, but I didn't have much of an issue getting those things in. I had more of an issue losing the Heavy Support slot preventing me from fielding more Hellblasters than the points right now.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

stratigo wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
293 Points with Laser, 284 with Plasma Incinerator.

Seems cheap as feth and honestly wouldn't be taking any other anti-vehicle units

Take three. Seriously. This is the kind of unit that needs saturation to shine

I am not exactly taking three of them, but my initial plan for my Primaris only army is to have an executioner, repulsor, and a stormraven. And yeah, I know I can't take Primaris in the stormraven. It is basically an attack helicopter. My army is a long, long way from being tuned and will probably never be anything close to high tier, but I didn't have much of an issue getting those things in. I had more of an issue losing the Heavy Support slot preventing me from fielding more Hellblasters than the points right now.

depending on how many hellblasters you take since points aren't an issue maybe built a spear head detachment around 2 hellblaster squads and a executioner?

Let's assume this thing isn't a total liability. (which it is on your opponent's turn)

What problem does this solve for marines? If I want to lose to invuln saves, I can already take lascannons. -4 AP makes me lose harder to invulns.

The price point is abysmal. (in actually purchasing it)

Martel732 wrote:
Let's assume this thing isn't a total liability. (which it is on your opponent's turn)

What problem does this solve for marines? If I want to lose to invuln saves, I can already take lascannons. -4 AP makes me lose harder to invulns.

What problem? Why would it need to solve a problem? What does that even mean? Are you asking what it does? It's on the bloody tin, mate.

Fit it into your list or don't - the problem it "solves" is AT, and it does so by being a T8 gunboat with a supporting cast of transport capacity and anti-infantry firepower. If those bonuses mean something to your style or your list, then it fits. If it doesn't, then the problem it "solves" you can find another way to handle. Just like every unit. In every army. What "problem" do Dark Reapers solve? Silly bloody question, right?

Marty, look - this game kind of encourages the player to build a force on their own. Don't expect any unit to just outright tell you it will solve some "problem" and fit perfectly in your list. It won't. You're going to have to do that all by yourself, bud. I'd expect somebody with your seasoned attitude to have already picked that up ages ago.

I think you know what it means. GW keeps giving marines equipment that's really only good vs other imperials.

Martel732 wrote:
I think you know what it means. GW keeps giving marines equipment that's really only good vs other imperials.

Which this thing is not..so not sure what you are talking about.

Its "main gun" would be good at killling imperial armour, but the secondary guns all 26+ shots are good at killing basic infantry.

Its not like this thing is covered in low shot significant -ap weapons, its not designed to kill other imperials. Unless you mean imperial soup, in which case its good at killing everything in the game as imperial soup basically encompasses every possible unit type in the game given how over saturated their rules/model line are.

Its a flying tank with significant anti armor shooting, and even more significant anti infantry shooting, and it can carry 6 models. Oh did we mention it has the FLY keyword? That is pretty huge for a tank.

Did we mention it doesnt have an inv, for ~300 pts. ? Even a 30 pts. character has an inv. FLY is great for weapons that get +1 to hit FLY, and there are many of those. Its a bullet magnet, easier to hit, and no inv.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
293 Points with Laser, 284 with Plasma Incinerator.

Seems cheap as feth and honestly wouldn't be taking any other anti-vehicle units

300 points, 1 HS slot is not "cheap" - 1 HS slot of 10 Hellblasters gets far more (Anti-Tank viable) shots - with likely more wounds per round - per HS slot for similar points.

Vs T8 3+, No Invuln:

10 Hellblasters (Overcharged + Single/Rapid Fire) - 110% of the points - 10/20 shots, 6.5/13 hits, 3.25/6.5 successful wounds doing 6.5/13 damage.
1 Repulsor Laser Destroyer 4 shots, 2.68 hits, 1.7956 successful wounding rolls, 7.1824 damage.
Macro Plasma 7 shots, 4.69 hits, 3.1423 wounding rolls, 6.2846 damage
T8 vs Cover + discarded multi-wound damage is a situational wash. A person's local meta could easily benefit either over the other more often.

The Repuslor does have the benefit of secondary and tertiary weapons systems to allow some anti-personnel as well as anti-tank work and the drawback of a higher target priority, all eggs/one basket.
Fewer shots as Hellblasters die, and less accurate shots is probably a wash overall, with peaks and valleys depending on the wound tier.

So neither the fully kitted out Hellblasters nor the Repulsor are cheap. Nor do they appear all that expensive once you look at the math.

Compared to Devastators -
Min Size Devs, 4 ML's 50-60% of the points, 4 shots, 2.68 hits, 1.34 wounding rolls, 4.69 wounds, 3.1423 after armor saves.
Compared to Interceptors (5, Plasma)
5 x 2D3 shots = 20 shots, 13.4 hits, 6.7 wounding rolls, 13.4 wounds - roughly halfway between the Hellblasters, and the Repulsor in points cost, and the less crowded FA slot - Durability is far far less assured - they will get a guaranteed turn of work, but could be forced into a practically throw away situation, even if not, probably next turn opposition reaction will be hard on them, and assuming the deep alpha strike usage, Captain/Lieutenant/Gulliman aura support is less assumed - but still easily doable - than it is for the units mentioned already making 20 overcharged shots potentially suicidal for 3 of them.

Just looked at the data sheet - two interesting things jumped out at me. Can't upgrade the twin HB's into Twin LC's, and the Gatling Cannon really is the Heavy Onslaught not the smaller Onslaught. Which I figure is nice, but a mistake. They stuck both right arm options of the Redemptor (one of which was already the main gun for the first Repulsor as well) in the turret at the same time. This diminishses the Redemptor a bit, plus throws off the scale a bit as well. The mini turrets above the doors weren't removed, they were just moved. They're now on the back of the big turret where they weren't very visible. Options for many of these turrets have gone away and they're just hard coded - they will be launchers/stormbolters/whatever they start as rather than being swappable.

as for what it does. It gives Primaris Marines a SERIOUS anti-tank option. I mean, one of the things people always would qualify about all Primaris Marines is "their anti-tank isn't very good" this new tank gives a primaris army a solid bit of anti-tank work, we can argue about the points cost all day long but points costs change as time goes by, and GW's been pretty consistant about pricing primaris high and eventually moving the points costs down. so yeah it does give Primaris something they need.

BrianDavion wrote:
as for what it does. It gives Primaris Marines a SERIOUS anti-tank option. I mean, one of the things people always would qualify about all Primaris Marines is "their anti-tank isn't very good" this new tank gives a primaris army a solid bit of anti-tank work, we can argue about the points cost all day long but points costs change as time goes by, and GW's been pretty consistant about pricing primaris high and eventually moving the points costs down. so yeah it does give Primaris something they need.

See Above: Hellblasters and Plasma Interceptors are both within some +/- margins for anti-tank and points costs. If the anti-tank was bad before, it's still bad. If this is good anti-tank they had good anti-tank before. Of course, I'll allow perception and reality are rarely the same, it may improve perception of Primaris Anti-tank. This Repulsor is unlikely to come down in price unless the other does, and neither is likely to happen this edition. They'll perform on par with other choices for similar points, plus have added secondary and tertiary weapons/roles. This one is theoretically cheaper for everything you want it to do than the normal Repulsor except transport - and neither is really taken as a transport first, tank second - the transport capacity is the frosting, not the cake.

Breton wrote:
This Repulsor is unlikely to come down in price unless the other does, and neither is likely to happen this edition.

you realize the repulsor has already gotten a points drop this edition yeah?

BrianDavion wrote:
as for what it does. It gives Primaris Marines a SERIOUS anti-tank option. I mean, one of the things people always would qualify about all Primaris Marines is "their anti-tank isn't very good" this new tank gives a primaris army a solid bit of anti-tank work, we can argue about the points cost all day long but points costs change as time goes by, and GW's been pretty consistant about pricing primaris high and eventually moving the points costs down. so yeah it does give Primaris something they need.

If i want a serious anti tank option for marines i go with the quad lascannon contemptor mortis dreadnought. For 300 pts i can almost get two of them. That 8 lascannon shots, hitting on 2s, with 5+ inv., with chapter tactics, which the executioner doesnt get. Go with RG, and they get -1 to hit at 12+". The repulsor gets +1 to hit with an anti FLY weapon Move is 9" for the dread, compared to 10" for the executioner, still hitting on 3s, like the executioner. This repulsor is DOA. GW has no idea how to make a viable marine tank.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:
This Repulsor is unlikely to come down in price unless the other does, and neither is likely to happen this edition.

you realize the repulsor has already gotten a points drop this edition yeah?

What does that matter? Was the points drop recent enough it occurred after they priced this one, so this one was priced on the old price model? The old one with a Heavy Onslaught Turret (and TLHB to match the new one as close as possible) is 272 with carrying capacity 10. The new one has everything the first one does minus a couple krakstorm launchers, adds a second Icarus Ironhail to the first and twin linked them, plus added a second turret main gun, AND gave it the ability to double-tap the new main gun while taking away 4 transport capacity - for what did people say? about 27 points? The two repulsors are going to be pretty linked on price, and this new one isn't going down unless the old one does first/as well. And expected performance for the first one is fairly comparable to other units performing similar functions.

A regular Land Raider 297 points - 2 TLLC - 4 shots, 2.68 hits, 1.7956 wounding rolls, 6.2846 wounds, 5.235 after Armor Saves. They're going to keep the Primaris stuff slightly better and slightly cheaper than the old stuff, but they're not going to break the game.

 p5freak wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
as for what it does. It gives Primaris Marines a SERIOUS anti-tank option. I mean, one of the things people always would qualify about all Primaris Marines is "their anti-tank isn't very good" this new tank gives a primaris army a solid bit of anti-tank work, we can argue about the points cost all day long but points costs change as time goes by, and GW's been pretty consistant about pricing primaris high and eventually moving the points costs down. so yeah it does give Primaris something they need.

If i want a serious anti tank option for marines i go with the quad lascannon contemptor mortis dreadnought. For 300 pts i can almost get two of them. That 8 lascannon shots, hitting on 2s, with 5+ inv., with chapter tactics, which the executioner doesnt get. Go with RG, and they get -1 to hit at 12+". The repulsor gets +1 to hit with an anti FLY weapon Move is 9" for the dread, compared to 10" for the executioner, still hitting on 3s, like the executioner. This repulsor is DOA. GW has no idea how to make a viable marine tank.

the contemptor isn't a PRIMARIS unit now is it?
Keep in mind I never said the tank was an amazing tank, I simply noted it filled a specific role that Primaris Marines did have a need for.

No, the dread isnt a PRIMARIS unit.