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Good luck with that.

Use a chapter master and a command point. You're not spending them on anything else after all. And why aren't we using the additional 30 shots of Str4/5 ap-1?

I have no concern over vehicles with a 5++
Typically they can be chipped away with other weapons on top.

Dark Eldar vehicles
A Deredeo or Contemptor
A Calidius Tank

None of these are hard to remove. And in no circumstance should your only Anti Tank be a single Repulsor.

Everyone is creaming themselves about the range, that's why. If you are using that range, the other weapons are out of range.

I'm BA I don't get a chapter master. Command points are a bit hard to factor in, but the averages still give you a solid base line.

4 * 0.89 * 0.77 * 0.666 = 1.83. So chapter master gets you to 1.83 cleared hits. No way a single reroll is getting you up to an average of 3. Hell, the 5++ alone puts you at 2.67 even if all hit and wound everytime.

OBVIOUSLY it shouldn't be your only anti-tank. What kind of statement is that? But by the time you are done paying for marines models, it's not looking great imo.

Tell me all about how that blightcrawler is easy to remove. Seriously? Bottom line is that marines have such a small margin for error, they can't afford to pay for AP they don't get.

Hey, I get it. You hate this unit and every other Astartes unit, and you will continue to hate it until it's featured in a large tournament winning list, after which you'll be singing it's praises because variety, modelling, fun, aren't factors in your hobby experience.

So small, so limiting.

 Insectum7 wrote:


Why the heck would you bother doing the calculations for Devs if you're only going to give them Missile Launchers? Plasma or Las at least if you're calculating vs. T8 3+

Because Plas and Las numbers - or something similar enough to be in the educated guess ballpark are already done - and the process is laid out step by step for anyone curious enough to do the math themselves if ballpark isn't good enough?

Why are you bothering to complain about free math, when you can make an excel sheet for anything I didn't do for you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
as for what it does. It gives Primaris Marines a SERIOUS anti-tank option. I mean, one of the things people always would qualify about all Primaris Marines is "their anti-tank isn't very good" this new tank gives a primaris army a solid bit of anti-tank work, we can argue about the points cost all day long but points costs change as time goes by, and GW's been pretty consistant about pricing primaris high and eventually moving the points costs down. so yeah it does give Primaris something they need.

See Above: Hellblasters and Plasma Interceptors are both within some +/- margins for anti-tank and points costs. If the anti-tank was bad before, it's still bad. If this is good anti-tank they had good anti-tank before. Of course, I'll allow perception and reality are rarely the same, it may improve perception of Primaris Anti-tank. This Repulsor is unlikely to come down in price unless the other does, and neither is likely to happen this edition. They'll perform on par with other choices for similar points, plus have added secondary and tertiary weapons/roles. This one is theoretically cheaper for everything you want it to do than the normal Repulsor except transport - and neither is really taken as a transport first, tank second - the transport capacity is the frosting, not the cake.

A key part you're forgetting - range.

15-18 is not a good place for your AT to operate without becoming suicide squads. While they could do the job, they really only had one way to do it. Worse, it was immediately telegraphed to your opponent. They are effective but easy to counter. Now there's another option with range.

Variety is important. This provides AT in a heavily armoured package that operates very differently than Hellblasters and Inceptors. Some lists could very much make use of a couple of these while others that built different AT solutions would find it hard to fit them in. As usual, new unit, new lists - folks who are too set in their preferences don't need it. They'll only misuse the damn thing anyway.

You think this thing is subtle? Surprise, I'm shooting your tank with my tank sporting the new anti tank gun? Bet you didn't see that coming!

I'm not forgetting range, I'm disputing the idea that Primaris Anti-Tank is somehow different now than it was before because of another unit that provides similar performance at the given task.

There is an argument to be made that this thing can replace two units for fewer points and only one Heavy Support slot - i.e the Hellblasters and the Dakka Devs. - However that doesn't make the Primaris AT better, and it has it's own eggs/basket counter point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:
This Repulsor is unlikely to come down in price unless the other does, and neither is likely to happen this edition.

you realize the repulsor has already gotten a points drop this edition yeah?

What does that matter? Was the points drop recent enough it occurred after they priced this one, so this one was priced on the old price model? The old one with a Heavy Onslaught Turret (and TLHB to match the new one as close as possible) is 272 with carrying capacity 10. The new one has everything the first one does minus a couple krakstorm launchers, adds a second Icarus Ironhail to the first and twin linked them, plus added a second turret main gun, AND gave it the ability to double-tap the new main gun while taking away 4 transport capacity - for what did people say? about 27 points? The two repulsors are going to be pretty linked on price, and this new one isn't going down unless the old one does first/as well. And expected performance for the first one is fairly comparable to other units performing similar functions.

A regular Land Raider 297 points - 2 TLLC - 4 shots, 2.68 hits, 1.7956 wounding rolls, 6.2846 wounds, 5.235 after Armor Saves. They're going to keep the Primaris stuff slightly better and slightly cheaper than the old stuff, but they're not going to break the game.

Every marine vehicle deserves at least a 10-15 point drop for not having chapter tactics which should really scale with how expensive the unit is. Obviously a -1 to hit is worth more on a LR than a rhino. This is across the board no questions asked. You have to accept this. There is no reason for marine tanks to no have CT or point drops. On top of this. LR are bad. They are really bad. They are the epitome of bad. They cost too dang much and everyone knows it and everyone is tired of explaining why. Just listen to us. We know. They aren't getting played because they are bad. You cant use them as a measuring stick for things. Repuslors at the end of the day are still better than LR. This doesn't mean a Repulsor is a good unit though. Its at the better end of the marine spectrum if you don't go to forge world. Marines are a bottom tier army though that every unit is made deliberately bad because they have good buff auras.

You can't compare the new Heavy Transport Tanks to the old Heavy Transport Tanks from the same codex/faction... not even on shared army- and game-wide statistical concepts like damage output, points costs, damage per point and so on? Such a rule does not inspire the trust you just demanded.

stratigo wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Did we mention it doesnt have an inv, for ~300 pts. ? Even a 30 pts. character has an inv. FLY is great for weapons that get +1 to hit FLY, and there are many of those. Its a bullet magnet, easier to hit, and no inv.

Again take three or take 0.

Also hope you have 300ish dollars to drop.

The reason I'll not get them is I lack 300 dollars to spend on tanks. I'm already buying a gak ton of GW stuff

Unlike with regular marines where almost every marine has a transport, my primaris will mostly just footslog it looks like. Or I'll just start saving up and spring for a Thunderhawk.

The only reason I bought a repulsor was the local store to my parents was clearing out their GW stock @50% off. No way I was gonna pay $80, so the price of a razorback was significantly more palatable. $100 for the executioner is about $25 too high. if repulsor was $60 and the executioner was $80-85 it would be a much more reasonable. I sure as hell hope there is a $50-60 light/strike craft with 5 marine capacity(which should be cheap but prob not).

Originally I wanted to get 2 of them but with the $€£¥ I am going to go with one & add the Salamander doors I already have to it.

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Reading the leaked datasheet and point costs for the Repulsor Executioner made me wonder: is there a good reason to take regular Repulsor over the Executioner?

The difference of anti-infantry firepower between two variants is little, yet the Executioner sports far greater anti-tank firepower.
The Executioner also has plethora of special rules which the regular variant already has, including auto launchers and -2 penalty to enemy charge rolls.
And yet the difference in points cost between the two Repulsor variants is only about 20, assuming the regular variant takes all-out anti-infantry weaponry.

The regular Repulsor can carry four more Primaris models, but I have rarely seen this extra transport capability come into action.
Not unless someone wishes to carry 10 Hellblasters safely until they are in range, but with abundance of to-hit penalties nowadays large unit of Hellblasters do not seem appealing.

I've got a list with Calgar, a Primaris Lieutenant, a Primaris Apothecary, and 3 Aggressors ready to hop into a Repulsor for a ride. Can't do that with an Executioner. Of course, if I take this one and the old one, I could bump the Agressor squad, stick the characters in the Executioner, and run it all up. Assuming I don't get holes blown in me for taking two giant targets. But yes, the transport capacity and about $100 is the only reason to take the old one over the new one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:

Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Reading the leaked datasheet and point costs for the Repulsor Executioner made me wonder: is there a good reason to take regular Repulsor over the Executioner?

The difference of anti-infantry firepower between two variants is little, yet the Executioner sports far greater anti-tank firepower.
The Executioner also has plethora of special rules which the regular variant already has, including auto launchers and -2 penalty to enemy charge rolls.
And yet the difference in points cost between the two Repulsor variants is only about 20, assuming the regular variant takes all-out anti-infantry weaponry.

The regular Repulsor can carry four more Primaris models, but I have rarely seen this extra transport capability come into action.
Not unless someone wishes to carry 10 Hellblasters safely until they are in range, but with abundance of to-hit penalties nowadays large unit of Hellblasters do not seem appealing.

Absolutely. The Regular Repulsor is not punished for moving. It acts as a fire support tank, advancing with other units.

This new variant is a more static, ranged unit.

The new one can move 5" and still double tap. It can move 10 and POTMS still applies. Most troops move 5-6". The new one can still act as the fire support tank advancing with other units for most ground troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Everyone is creaming themselves about the range, that's why. If you are using that range, the other weapons are out of range.

I'm BA I don't get a chapter master. Command points are a bit hard to factor in, but the averages still give you a solid base line.

4 * 0.89 * 0.77 * 0.666 = 1.83. So chapter master gets you to 1.83 cleared hits. No way a single reroll is getting you up to an average of 3. Hell, the 5++ alone puts you at 2.67 even if all hit and wound everytime.

OBVIOUSLY it shouldn't be your only anti-tank. What kind of statement is that? But by the time you are done paying for marines models, it's not looking great imo.

Tell me all about how that blightcrawler is easy to remove. Seriously? Bottom line is that marines have such a small margin for error, they can't afford to pay for AP they don't get.

You're BA. Technically you don't get a Repulsor Executioner either. Go look at the screen captures of the Datasheet. It's IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, <CHAPTER> - the rules for <CHAPTER> are in Codex:SM and state you can't replace <CHAPTER> with BA/DA/SW/GK (and implies DW) - I imagine it will be errata/corrected before the pre-order's ship though to have language similar to the Shadow Spear set - If you're using X chapter replace this keyword with that keyword.

Lemondish wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Every marine vehicle deserves at least a 10-15 point drop for not having chapter tactics which should really scale with how expensive the unit is. Obviously a -1 to hit is worth more on a LR than a rhino. This is across the board no questions asked. You have to accept this. There is no reason for marine tanks to no have CT or point drops. On top of this. LR are bad. They are really bad. They are the epitome of bad. They cost too dang much and everyone knows it and everyone is tired of explaining why. Just listen to us. We know. They aren't getting played because they are bad. You cant use them as a measuring stick for things. Repuslors at the end of the day are still better than LR. This doesn't mean a Repulsor is a good unit though. Its at the better end of the marine spectrum if you don't go to forge world. Marines are a bottom tier army though that every unit is made deliberately bad because they have good buff auras.

More hyperbole...Look, Xeno - not everyone agrees with you. In fact, based on your rather abrasive attitude and lack of basic candor and cordiality, I'd even think most folks find what you're saying to be not worth listening. I do, because I think you're trying to be helpful. Unfortunately, you're not. I beg of you, please consider abandoning the constant railing against this unit. Folks in here are thinking about ways to make use of it and the one thing they absolutely do not need is some spoil sport coming in here derailing the thread by chastising, attacking, and outright insulting people who want to make use of this new model. It's a cool kit with neat rules! Why can't you just enjoy yourself without having to put others down.

More importantly, I think I speak for a few here when I say it's far more valuable to talk about units as they exist in reality. That means there's really no call to belly ache about something that doesn't exist. Vehicles don't get CTs. That's just how it is and is a known factor. I know it will boil your blood to hear this, but I'm excited for the unit even though it doesn't get CTs! What type of monster must I be, eh?

You understand the meaning of the word hyperbole means exaggeration? Nothing I state is exaggeration. Marine vehicles don't get CT and almost all other vehicles do. In the world of reality you speak of - that means they are weaker than other vehicles and therefore should cost less. What you are calling abrasiveness is what some call truthfulness - I see no reason to overlook this fact. Why would you make use of this Repuslor when you could make use of a far better unit? Why should I spend 100 dollar to be disappointed? Furthmore LR are bad. It's common knowledge. Including a LR in your list quite often means you lose as a result. It is that bad. Repuslors aren't that bad because they actually can lay down some fire before they get blown up by a not so large amount of fire compared to other 300 point units and they can fly which means a a slugga boy can't just turn you off by touching you. I'm simply responding to comments like. "This repulsor is almost as good as a Crusader" Nope...It's not. If you are considering competitive play in 40k it's going to underperform just like all the other marine units. In Apoc however it looks to be pretty good.

Martel732 wrote:


I'm BA I don't get a chapter master. Command points are a bit hard to factor in, but the averages still give you a solid base line.

We still have Dante and he is a chapter master. A bit too pricy for using as a long range buffer at 175pts and wasting his close combat potential. But he is still a chapter master and not just a captain.

 Xenomancers wrote:

You understand the meaning of the word hyperbole means exaggeration? Nothing I state is exaggeration.

Xenomancers Hyperbole wrote:]They are really bad. They are the epitome of bad. They cost too dang much and everyone knows it and everyone is tired of explaining why. Just listen to us. We know. They aren't getting played because they are bad. You cant use them as a measuring stick for things.

Breton wrote:


You're BA. Technically you don't get a Repulsor Executioner either. Go look at the screen captures of the Datasheet. It's IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, <CHAPTER> - the rules for <CHAPTER> are in Codex:SM and state you can't replace <CHAPTER> with BA/DA/SW/GK (and implies DW) - I imagine it will be errata/corrected before the pre-order's ship though to have language similar to the Shadow Spear set - If you're using X chapter replace this keyword with that keyword.

Except that every primaris unit to date has specificly had <chapter> in it's keywords setting and said dark angels, blood angels and space wolves can take it. anyone who'd legit try to argue that is just being TFG at this point.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nothing I state is exaggeration.

That's definitely an exaggeration.

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


Why the heck would you bother doing the calculations for Devs if you're only going to give them Missile Launchers? Plasma or Las at least if you're calculating vs. T8 3+

Because Plas and Las numbers - or something similar enough to be in the educated guess ballpark are already done - and the process is laid out step by step for anyone curious enough to do the math themselves if ballpark isn't good enough?

Why are you bothering to complain about free math, when you can make an excel sheet for anything I didn't do for you?

"Free math" is hardly worth anything if it's a lousy comparison, that's why. Or if you're using the math to make a point, but using a (very) sub-optimal loadout, it's just wasted energy.

Martel732 wrote:
Everyone is creaming themselves about the range, that's why. If you are using that range, the other weapons are out of range.

You sit the tank at 30" away from the screen and shoot it to bits while the big gun can hit the big targets that were being screened. That tank is extremely hard to assault from that far away.

To get the much-vaunted superior firepower of the hallblasters you need to get them into 15" range of the big target which puts them in easy charge range of anything that wants to charge them, or just rapid fire range of the screening units which will usually be fatal enough. That is if you can even get them that close without a transport - because footslogging them is inviting your opponent to shoot them off the table. The problem is that at 30" the hellblasters are just not that great so they need to get danger-close.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everyone is creaming themselves about the range, that's why. If you are using that range, the other weapons are out of range.

You sit the tank at 30" away from the screen and shoot it to bits while the big gun can hit the big targets that were being screened. That tank is extremely hard to assault from that far away.

To get the much-vaunted superior firepower of the hallblasters you need to get them into 15" range of the big target which puts them in easy charge range of anything that wants to charge them, or just rapid fire range of the screening units which will usually be fatal enough. That is if you can even get them that close without a transport - because footslogging them is inviting your opponent to shoot them off the table. The problem is that at 30" the hellblasters are just not that great so they need to get danger-close.

indeed. why do people assume their opponents will just LET Hellblasters into double tap range? If someone's moving a hellblaster squad up the board to get in range of my "big dangerous unit" I'm going to shoot that squad. or charge into melee with it. hellblasters are decent at melee (for a non melee specialist unit) but even if I tie them up for a turn or two thats a gain

It makes it more expensive... But wouldn’t a shyshield landing pad be perfect for the executioner? Combined with a Techmarine, captain and LT (or Techmarine and gullimen for UM)...

Ability to repair multiple wounds at a push (pad due to fly, but sacrificing the inv save and Techmarine).

Even more difficult to charge.

5++ invulnerable save if no crucial damage to repair...

I reckon you should be able to fit two on top of it.

It’s T8, 20 wounds and 4+ save, so fairly easy to kill with dedicated weapons, but those dedicated weapons are not shooting the tank(s), so saving it from a turn of shooting.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:


You're BA. Technically you don't get a Repulsor Executioner either. Go look at the screen captures of the Datasheet. It's IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, <CHAPTER> - the rules for <CHAPTER> are in Codex:SM and state you can't replace <CHAPTER> with BA/DA/SW/GK (and implies DW) - I imagine it will be errata/corrected before the pre-order's ship though to have language similar to the Shadow Spear set - If you're using X chapter replace this keyword with that keyword.

Except that every primaris unit to date has specificly had <chapter> in it's keywords setting and said dark angels, blood angels and space wolves can take it. anyone who'd legit try to argue that is just being TFG at this point.

As mentioned, They also had If using (one of the other non-SM Codex chapters) replace This Keyword with That Keyword. This isn't on the paper so far screen captured for the Executioner - that paper may or may not exist yet. Also as mentioned I expect them to correct that oversight in short order if it does not exist. One can point out the currently available information says it's Codex marines only, and an expectation it will be corrected (or proven to be, after all paperwork is available) to be available to non-Codex Chapters at the same time. IF - REPEAT IF - that is the full datasheet/documentation, it would not be the first time A) Codex Space Marines got some unit or piece of equipment - Say a Land Raider Crusader - before the non-Codex chapters got it or - Say a Centurion - not at all - AND/OR - B) GW made an oversight on their rules writing - say a generic chapter master for a Blood Angels Successor chapter? Pointing out such a discrepancy everyone is assuming as a given when it's very likely but not certain isn't TFG, it's prudence. I doubt GW would release a Codex SM only unit without making it clear it's Codex SM only but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:


You're BA. Technically you don't get a Repulsor Executioner either. Go look at the screen captures of the Datasheet. It's IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, <CHAPTER> - the rules for <CHAPTER> are in Codex:SM and state you can't replace <CHAPTER> with BA/DA/SW/GK (and implies DW) - I imagine it will be errata/corrected before the pre-order's ship though to have language similar to the Shadow Spear set - If you're using X chapter replace this keyword with that keyword.

Except that every primaris unit to date has specificly had <chapter> in it's keywords setting and said dark angels, blood angels and space wolves can take it. anyone who'd legit try to argue that is just being TFG at this point.

As mentioned, They also had If using (one of the other non-SM Codex chapters) replace This Keyword with That Keyword. .

WRONG! I've been working with my Primaris Marines today (assmbled a repulsor and some hellblasters) the repulsor does NOT say "you can apply this to blood angels etc" it just has "adeptus astartes, Imperium <chapter>" as keywords, as do the hellblasters, as does Vanguard Marines. who in a mini codex only simply note that "the grey knights, death watch, and Legion of the damned all deviate signfcigently from orginization and cannot choose one of them as keywords when choosing these units" beyond that the only mention of the snowflake chapters specific in the vanguard codex is applying the useal "inner circle" stuff for dark angels and "they're actually called wolf guard battle leaders and wolf lords" in the space wolves.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:


You're BA. Technically you don't get a Repulsor Executioner either. Go look at the screen captures of the Datasheet. It's IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, <CHAPTER> - the rules for <CHAPTER> are in Codex:SM and state you can't replace <CHAPTER> with BA/DA/SW/GK (and implies DW) - I imagine it will be errata/corrected before the pre-order's ship though to have language similar to the Shadow Spear set - If you're using X chapter replace this keyword with that keyword.

Except that every primaris unit to date has specificly had <chapter> in it's keywords setting and said dark angels, blood angels and space wolves can take it. anyone who'd legit try to argue that is just being TFG at this point.

As mentioned, They also had If using (one of the other non-SM Codex chapters) replace This Keyword with That Keyword. .

WRONG! I've been working with my Primaris Marines today (assmbled a repulsor and some hellblasters) the repulsor does NOT say "you can apply this to blood angels etc" it just has "adeptus astartes, Imperium <chapter>" as keywords, as do the hellblasters, as does Vanguard Marines. who in a mini codex only simply note that "the grey knights, death watch, and Legion of the damned all deviate signfcigently from orginization and cannot choose one of them as keywords when choosing these units" beyond that the only mention of the snowflake chapters specific in the vanguard codex is applying the useal "inner circle" stuff for dark angels and "they're actually called wolf guard battle leaders and wolf lords" in the space wolves.

I'm wrong? There is no paper in the Shadow Spear vanguard box, where it instructs players to change this keyword with that keyword for non SM Codex chapters like BA/DA/SW? Just a little note in the Vanguard Codex from the Shadow Spear vanguard box that tells you if you're using BA/DA/SW to replace things like Captain with Master, or Wolf Lord?

I have seen the error of my ways. How could I be so wrong as to think the paper page from the vanguard codex from the Shadowspear box telling you to replace the Captain keyword with Master keyword - among others - could be a piece of paper telling you to replace this keyword with that keyword when playing not Codex:SM space marine chapters. I am so ashamed.

It's not out yet. There will probably be an FAQ to clarify just as they've done with other Primaris releases.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:


You're BA. Technically you don't get a Repulsor Executioner either. Go look at the screen captures of the Datasheet. It's IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, <CHAPTER> - the rules for <CHAPTER> are in Codex:SM and state you can't replace <CHAPTER> with BA/DA/SW/GK (and implies DW) - I imagine it will be errata/corrected before the pre-order's ship though to have language similar to the Shadow Spear set - If you're using X chapter replace this keyword with that keyword.

Except that every primaris unit to date has specificly had <chapter> in it's keywords setting and said dark angels, blood angels and space wolves can take it. anyone who'd legit try to argue that is just being TFG at this point.

As mentioned, They also had If using (one of the other non-SM Codex chapters) replace This Keyword with That Keyword. .

WRONG! I've been working with my Primaris Marines today (assmbled a repulsor and some hellblasters) the repulsor does NOT say "you can apply this to blood angels etc" it just has "adeptus astartes, Imperium <chapter>" as keywords, as do the hellblasters, as does Vanguard Marines. who in a mini codex only simply note that "the grey knights, death watch, and Legion of the damned all deviate signfcigently from orginization and cannot choose one of them as keywords when choosing these units" beyond that the only mention of the snowflake chapters specific in the vanguard codex is applying the useal "inner circle" stuff for dark angels and "they're actually called wolf guard battle leaders and wolf lords" in the space wolves.

I'm wrong? There is no paper in the Shadow Spear vanguard box, where it instructs players to change this keyword with that keyword for non SM Codex chapters like BA/DA/SW? Just a little note in the Vanguard Codex from the Shadow Spear vanguard box that tells you if you're using BA/DA/SW to replace things like Captain with Master, or Wolf Lord?

I have seen the error of my ways. How could I be so wrong as to think the paper page from the vanguard codex from the Shadowspear box telling you to replace the Captain keyword with Master keyword - among others - could be a piece of paper telling you to replace this keyword with that keyword when playing not Codex:SM space marine chapters. I am so ashamed.

Yes you're wrong because it does not say "replace chapter with X" it rather it says

"Some modifications apply to Captains in Phobos armor, Leuitenants in Phobos armor and Libarians in Phobos armor if you decide they are drawn from space wolves or dark angels chapters"

and then specificly says to give the Captain Lt and Libby for dark angels the Inner Circle rule. and change the captain for dark angels keyword to Master, and to change the space wolves keyword to Wolf Lord and Battleguard. ohh and change the space wolves Libby keyword to Rune preist.

That's it. no specific explination on changing the chapter. just some keyword changes for the HQs. there's nothing there about the non HQ units, and nothing about blood angels specificly.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


Why the heck would you bother doing the calculations for Devs if you're only going to give them Missile Launchers? Plasma or Las at least if you're calculating vs. T8 3+

Because Plas and Las numbers - or something similar enough to be in the educated guess ballpark are already done - and the process is laid out step by step for anyone curious enough to do the math themselves if ballpark isn't good enough?

Why are you bothering to complain about free math, when you can make an excel sheet for anything I didn't do for you?

"Free math" is hardly worth anything if it's a lousy comparison, that's why. Or if you're using the math to make a point, but using a (very) sub-optimal loadout, it's just wasted energy.

The Plasma math was already done - One Inceptor plasma blaster and one Plasma Cannon are the same - At least for the relevant parts of the stat line we were comparing.

Are you suggesting the results for D3 S7/8 AP -3 D1/D2 damage output will change when coming from a BS 3+ Inceptor vs a BS 3+ Devastator? Or that you're incapable of adjusting 10D3 to 4D3? Using a calculator to multiply by .4?

I think we were comparing vs T8 3+, No Invuln? How much difference do you think there is between 4x S10 -4 D3-6 (Average 4) and 4x S9 -3 DD6 (Average 3.5) Vs T8 3+ No Invuln?

1 Repulsor Laser Destroyer 4 shots, 2.68 hits, 1.7956 successful wounding rolls, 7.1824 damage.

Will the BS 3+ Devastators hit more often than the BS3+ Repulsor? Will S10 wound T8 more than S9? Are you incapable of guestimating -or using a calculator to multiply - 1.7956 x 3.5 after being told what 1.7956 x 4 is?

I'll even grant you'll have to add in a 6+ armor save to the calculations. A feat never before accomplished in the history of Mathammer players vs Orks and IG.

So I repeat - Las and Plas numbers were already done far enough most can extrapolate the numbers - Probably in their head - for the -Cannons - thus I did a third different anti-tank weapon choice entirely. Why are you complaining?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:


Yes you're wrong because it does not say "replace chapter with X" it rather it says

"Some modifications apply to Captains in Phobos armor, Leuitenants in Phobos armor and Libarians in Phobos armor if you decide they are drawn from space wolves or dark angels chapters"

and then specificly says to give the Captain Lt and Libby for dark angels the Inner Circle rule. and change the captain for dark angels keyword to Master, and to change the space wolves keyword to Wolf Lord and Battleguard. ohh and change the space wolves Libby keyword to Rune preist.

That's it. no specific explination on changing the chapter. just some keyword changes for the HQs. there's nothing there about the non HQ units, and nothing about blood angels specificly.

Feel free to quote the post where I said

"replace chapter with X"

. I said this keyword with that keyword- generically.

What exactly are you claiming here? DA/BA/SW can take Vanguard marines (And this Repulsor Executioner), but their <CHAPTER> keyword has to be a Codex Space Marine Chapter while they'll replace their CAPTAIN type keywords with MASTER etc? That BA/DA/SW can't take Phobos units or this Repulsor Executioner but if they could they'd replace CAPTAIN with MASTER etc? That a blurb about replacing the CAPTAIN keyword but not the <CHAPTER> is the exact sort of oversight that was a significant part of the point I brought up in the first place?

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everyone is creaming themselves about the range, that's why. If you are using that range, the other weapons are out of range.

You sit the tank at 30" away from the screen and shoot it to bits while the big gun can hit the big targets that were being screened. That tank is extremely hard to assault from that far away.

To get the much-vaunted superior firepower of the hallblasters you need to get them into 15" range of the big target which puts them in easy charge range of anything that wants to charge them, or just rapid fire range of the screening units which will usually be fatal enough. That is if you can even get them that close without a transport - because footslogging them is inviting your opponent to shoot them off the table. The problem is that at 30" the hellblasters are just not that great so they need to get danger-close.

Yes, its better than hellblasters. But I think hellblasters are just about the worst marine unit there is.


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Klickor wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


I'm BA I don't get a chapter master. Command points are a bit hard to factor in, but the averages still give you a solid base line.

We still have Dante and he is a chapter master. A bit too pricy for using as a long range buffer at 175pts and wasting his close combat potential. But he is still a chapter master and not just a captain.

We don't get the cheapo chapter master, which is what I assume every marine player is running.

Martel732 wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everyone is creaming themselves about the range, that's why. If you are using that range, the other weapons are out of range.

You sit the tank at 30" away from the screen and shoot it to bits while the big gun can hit the big targets that were being screened. That tank is extremely hard to assault from that far away.

To get the much-vaunted superior firepower of the hallblasters you need to get them into 15" range of the big target which puts them in easy charge range of anything that wants to charge them, or just rapid fire range of the screening units which will usually be fatal enough. That is if you can even get them that close without a transport - because footslogging them is inviting your opponent to shoot them off the table. The problem is that at 30" the hellblasters are just not that great so they need to get danger-close.

Yes, its better than hellblasters. But I think hellblasters are just about the worst marine unit there is.

Ok, so in your estimation, what is the best point for point unit in the SM arsenal? Please don't say scouts....

No, it's not scouts. That's actually a really hard question, because marines don't get many good units at all. Probably the mortis contemptor? Or maybe the leviathan. I suppose the vanilla chapter master upgrade is pretty good, too, even though I hate that play style.

I specifically point out hellblasters as a terrible unit because so much can go wrong, and they cost quite a bit.

Martel732 wrote:
No, it's not scouts. That's actually a really hard question, because marines don't get many good units at all. Probably the mortis contemptor? Or maybe the leviathan. I suppose the vanilla chapter master upgrade is pretty good, too, even though I hate that play style.

I specifically point out hellblasters as a terrible unit because so much can go wrong, and they cost quite a bit.

Relic Contemptor Mortis is probably up there.

I'm dismissing the Hellblaster comment as hyperbole though, as it's ridiculous to call the unit terrible. Upper mid tier, at lowest.

No, it's a terrible unit. I'm quite serious. It's really best at bullying around other marines. We've got tons of weapons and units good vs other marines. I have 10 fully painted and will never use them again. Might as well throw them in the trash.

Martel732 wrote:
No, it's a terrible unit. I'm quite serious. It's really best at bullying around other marines. We've got tons of weapons and units good vs other marines. I have 10 fully painted and will never use them again. Might as well throw them in the trash.

You go ahead and do that then, I'll continue to have mine do good work.

30" S7/8 AP4 D1/2 weapons, with assault versions and carrying plasma pistols, are crap? They each have two wounds, so as a unit there is 20 wounds, which for removal, means you have to dedicate some serious dakka their way.

But sure, they are crap. I seriously have no clue what metric you are going by for what makes a good unit.

You're the guy who plops down the Rogue/Wizard sheet at a table full of first time players, and then proceeds to critique and criticize everyone else's sheet.

I certainly contributed that you can't expect 3 cleared shots from this thing's main gun, esp vs 5+++. You just don't like the point made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
30" S7/8 AP4 D1/2 weapons, with assault versions and carrying plasma pistols, are crap? They each have two wounds, so as a unit there is 20 wounds, which for removal, means you have to dedicate some serious dakka their way.

But sure, they are crap. I seriously have no clue what metric you are going by for what makes a good unit.

You're the guy who plops down the Rogue/Wizard sheet at a table full of first time players, and then proceeds to critique and criticize everyone else's sheet.

They are crap because they are neutered in so many scenarios. -1 to hit? Can't overcharge. Can't get within 15"? Half shots. Opponent has a lot 2 damage weapons? They're dead. Opponent has lots of invulns? There goes the -4 AP. They're a huge gamble in a list that can't afford to gamble. They're particularly not good vs Xenos, where marines need the most help. Again, bullying other marines is not a useful function.