Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But they aren't. Why do you think that they are?

That list won once, and will probably never be seen again. For a reason.

The list has two top ten and a top twenty placing, actually. Sorry that you have trouble believing that BA can be anything other than trash. Must be a depressing mindset.

Oh, it didn't even finish first?

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But they aren't. Why do you think that they are?

That list won once, and will probably never be seen again. For a reason.

The list has two top ten and a top twenty placing, actually. Sorry that you have trouble believing that BA can be anything other than trash. Must be a depressing mindset.

Oh, it didn't even finish first?

I don’t know, from what it sounds like, it does way better than you.

While that's true, it was made to sound like it took an entire event. I've considered a list similar to that before, but didn't purchase the models b/c of the anti-IK meta.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pretty sure ork rockets shoot 24" so...unable to screen them. Plus. They just ensure you get charged turn 1 with stuff starting in their deployment zone. This is fail city.

Only unable if you do not know how to play the game. You put your screen so they can't drop within 24" of the tank - e.g 16-18" away from the tank. They cannot drop between the screen and the tank because there is nowhere not within 9" of something and if they drop 9" + 16" from the tank they sure aint shooting it. Obviously you can shuffle things slightly but always so that the final distance of an Ork from your tank is >24".

If this is the level of understanding you have of the game then I guess its no wonder you have such odd opinions. Learn to use those 9" exclusion zones properly.

I've seen 24" guns screened out before, particularly Tyranid shock cannons. This particular list had zero chance of doing this, though. As I said, Ork guy knew what he was looking at.

Martel732 wrote:
While that's true, it was made to sound like it took an entire event. I've considered a list similar to that before, but didn't purchase the models b/c of the anti-IK meta.

Now i don’t recall the highs and lows of the meta, but wasn’t anti-IK popular during Bad Moons Rumble #1, the London Open, and the Gibraltar 40K GT? Because that’s when this list played so well.

Martel732 wrote:
I've seen 24" guns screened out before, particularly Tyranid shock cannons. This particular list had zero chance of doing this, though. As I said, Ork guy knew what he was looking at.

Bad unbalanced list loses game, wow shocker. Teaches us nothing about the Repulsor Executioner. What point exactly were you trying to make?

Well it was the #2 list that event, so how bad could it be?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Also, on calling another person out for bad faith; it's extremely bad form to do so just because you don't like their viewpoint. It's potentially a rule#1 violation.

Now you are claiming not to argue with me that drop pods aren't hugely overcosted?

Edit: I think I remember the conversation you're referencing. I was arguing that a Droppod should cost more than 0pts + 1CP. As in, you shouldn't get to just spend 1 CP to deploy any given unit in a Drop Pod. At 0 points, I would certainly argue they *wouldn't* be overcosted, arguing that 0pts is too low is a far cry from arguing that their current points is too low.

You've argued with me about transport capacity. All kinds of stuff. Every single time you are favoring the eldar side. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

ITT:
Me: Eldar are OP. Forewarned is better than Auspex. Auspex has some upsides, but is worse.
You: "Every single time you are favoring the eldar side. EVERY SINGLE TIME."
Does. Not. Compute.

It's no surprise to anyone. Me on the other hand. I play all the armies. Including armies I play in which I called for nerfs to my own units. Like the Castellan.

So your argument is that I've always argued against nerfs to:
-Reaper Deathstars
-Spears Deathstars
-Doom
-Serpents
-Farseers
-Forewarned
-CWE WWP
? Because I've called for nerfs to every single one and more. Conversely, I've argued for buffs to:
-Tac Marines
-ASM
-General Marine profile
-Drop Pods
-And more

You might want to try reading my posts. As in, piece together the sentences and figure out the specific meanings of every statement. Don't just look for keywords then assume meaning.

Where you might be getting confused is that, sometimes, a viewpoint is more nuanced than "X is good" or "Y is bad". Sometimes, there's upsides and downsides. Sometimes, there's tradeoffs. And, beyond that, just because X is good doesn't mean it's the best thing ever - or that not-X is the worst thing ever. Even 40k - as relatively simplistic as it is - has some nuance beyond that.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
While that's true, it was made to sound like it took an entire event. I've considered a list similar to that before, but didn't purchase the models b/c of the anti-IK meta.

Now i don’t recall the highs and lows of the meta, but wasn’t anti-IK popular during Bad Moons Rumble #1, the London Open, and the Gibraltar 40K GT? Because that’s when this list played so well.

Maybe it was. Maybe I was wrong about the chances of such a list. Still though, I'm not acquiring those models at this time.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pretty sure ork rockets shoot 24" so...unable to screen them. Plus. They just ensure you get charged turn 1 with stuff starting in their deployment zone. This is fail city.

Only unable if you do not know how to play the game. You put your screen so they can't drop within 24" of the tank - e.g 16-18" away from the tank. They cannot drop between the screen and the tank because there is nowhere not within 9" of something and if they drop 9" + 16" from the tank they sure aint shooting it. Obviously you can shuffle things slightly but always so that the final distance of an Ork from your tank is >24".

If this is the level of understanding you have of the game then I guess its no wonder you have such odd opinions. Learn to use those 9" exclusion zones properly.

Here is what I know. 24 inch guns CAN NOT be screened from deep strike by a single unit. It requires multiple units and it can backfire ESP vs orks. Want to put 15 scouts out in the middle of the table so every unit in their army gets bonus movement on their first turn? It is a GREAT way to auto lose the game.

That's true. Most nids with shock cannons are mostly shooting lists. You can push out the screen with less chance of things going wrong.

Martel732 wrote:
But they aren't. Why do you think that they are?

Inceptors?

Because of how reliably I'm deleting targets worth more than them on the turn they drop.

In all fairness to you, I do play Dark Angels so I have the option of Weapons of the Dark Age. But they are considerably more playable than a Land Raider regardless.

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
While that's true, it was made to sound like it took an entire event. I've considered a list similar to that before, but didn't purchase the models b/c of the anti-IK meta.

Now i don’t recall the highs and lows of the meta, but wasn’t anti-IK popular during Bad Moons Rumble #1, the London Open, and the Gibraltar 40K GT? Because that’s when this list played so well.

Maybe it was. Maybe I was wrong about the chances of such a list. Still though, I'm not acquiring those models at this time.

Then don’t. I won’t force you. However, I will strongly suggest that you step outside of your bubble of interpretation on how well units may perform. It may be enlightening. In case you want to keep up with the player, it’s Joseph Moscardini.

But how does a Land Raider compare to a Stompa, Gorka/Morkanaugt, Squiggoth, Tantaulus, Vampyr Raider/Hunter, Greater Demon, etc?

Oh, small detail there. You can get two damage without overload. Or even three damage vs those without to hit penalties.

I'm still taking a BA LR over BA inceptors. I'm actually taking neither, but that's unimportant for the ranking.

Bharring wrote:
But how does a Land Raider compare to a Stompa, Gorka/Morkanaugt, Squiggoth, Tantaulus, Vampyr Raider/Hunter, Greater Demon, etc?

Greater deamons are good....what are you talking about? LOL My 3++ -1 damage LOC dumping out supersmites and infernal gateway with a +3/4 to cast is a game winner. Tantaulus can carry quite possibly the most powerful melle unit in the game for it's cost...Vampyr Raider? What is this? A corsair unit? I've already described that that does not count because it's not really even a real unit. Hunter? Ehhh - it's bad but it's not as bad as a LR - you can take 3 for the cost of a LR and you get double the t8 wounds with about the same firepower.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Here is what I know. 24 inch guns CAN NOT be screened from deep strike by a single unit. It requires multiple units and it can backfire ESP vs orks. Want to put 15 scouts out in the middle of the table so every unit in their army gets bonus movement on their first turn? It is a GREAT way to auto lose the game.

Why would I ever have less than 3 units of troops?

Why would I need more than one of those anywhere outside my deployment zone to do the screening, probably not even that far outside my deployment zone?

Is everyone assuming that the only place to deploy is dead-centre right on the front line and therefore you need to put your screen in the literal middle of the table? That would just be bad deployment in this match-up.

So yes, if someone charges a mob of boyz into my scouts they die. But they are way too far away from my castle for any useful pile-in action after that and now there is a unit of boyz just dangling there ready to be shot. I'll trade a cheap unit for that sort of table position advantage any day, which is of course why scouts are so great.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But how does a Land Raider compare to a Stompa, Gorka/Morkanaugt, Squiggoth, Tantaulus, Vampyr Raider/Hunter, Greater Demon, etc?

Greater deamons are good....what are you talking about? LOL My 3++ -1 damage LOC dumping out supersmites and infernal gateway with a +3/4 to cast is a game winner.

I was thinking the FW ones. Good luck getting too-many-vowels-for-name to do his job.

Tantaulus can carry quite possibly the most powerful melle unit in the game for it's cost...

Land Raiders can carry a number of units that are better than Land Raiders, but that doesn't make Land Raiders good. Why does it make the Tauntaulus good?

Vampyr Raider? What is this? A corsair unit? I've already described that that does not count because it's not really even a real unit.

IIRC, Corsairs can take them too, but the Vampyr is a CWE vehicle.

Hunter? Ehhh - it's bad but it's not as bad as a LR - you can take 3 for the cost of a LR and you get double the t8 wounds with about the same firepower.

The Vampyr Hunter costs way more than a Land Raider. I wasn't talking about the SM Hunter.

Once again, your argument boils down to "If it's worse than the Land Raider, it doesn't count"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the Gorka/Morkanaught or Stompa?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: This should *really* be ripped out of this thread. Started another thread if you still want to claim "LR are the epitome of bad" is not an exaggeration.

Ummm this 1500 point monstrosity with a 4d6 str 12 ap-4 d6 weapon that does 2d6 on 6 to wound? Plus 2 pulse lasers?

Like...I'm really not sure how bad this unit is. It has a 4++ save at full profile with a 6+ FNP. Can have -3 to hit on demand. If you were playing 5000 point battles it might actually be one of the best units I've ever seen. Seems to me it 1 shots a space marine falchion every turn while being almost impossible to hit and being quite durable on top of that. At 1500 points we will never see it in a 2000 point game. Ill concede that this unit would be a bad choice in competitive but not because it is a bad unit. Its just on the wrong battlefield. The LR is bad no matter what game you bring it to.

Also - why are we comparing space marine trash units to other armies trash units. If you are playing space marines you can't bring these things. Your options are imperial only. For 410ish points you can bring a shadowsword. Why would you pay 290ish for a repuslor exterminator?

So you could have that or 6 Executioners.

24 S9 Ap-3 Dd6 shots.
Hundreds of small arms shots.
Nearly 100W.

Once again, regardless of rules, you assume anything CWE is OP, anything Marine is garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ummm this 1500 point monstrosity with a 4d6 str 12 ap-4 d6 weapon that does 2d6 on 6 to wound? Plus 2 pulse lasers?

Like...I'm really not sure how bad this unit is. It has a 4++ save at full profile with a 6+ FNP. Can have -3 to hit on demand. If you were playing 5000 point battles it might actually be one of the best units I've ever seen. Seems to me it 1 shots a space marine falchion every turn while being almost impossible to hit and being quite durable on top of that. At 1500 points we will never see it in a 2000 point game. Ill concede that this unit would be a bad choice in competitive but not because it is a bad unit. Its just on the wrong battlefield. The LR is bad no matter what game you bring it to.

Also - why are we comparing space marine trash units to other armies trash units.

-Anything bigger than a LR doesn't count - they're pointed out of the game.
-Anything smaller than a LR doesn't count - they're easier to absorb the cost of.
-Anything FW doesn't count - it's too niche/unknown.
-Anything Xenos/Chaos doesn't count - for reasons.

The LR is the worst possible unit that isn't higher costed than, lower costed than, or otherwise not, a Land Raider. That's quite a stretch, and clearly not what you originally meant.

responding in the new thread.

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


Why the heck would you bother doing the calculations for Devs if you're only going to give them Missile Launchers? Plasma or Las at least if you're calculating vs. T8 3+

Because Plas and Las numbers - or something similar enough to be in the educated guess ballpark are already done - and the process is laid out step by step for anyone curious enough to do the math themselves if ballpark isn't good enough?

Why are you bothering to complain about free math, when you can make an excel sheet for anything I didn't do for you?

"Free math" is hardly worth anything if it's a lousy comparison, that's why. Or if you're using the math to make a point, but using a (very) sub-optimal loadout, it's just wasted energy.

The Plasma math was already done - One Inceptor plasma blaster and one Plasma Cannon are the same - At least for the relevant parts of the stat line we were comparing.

Are you suggesting the results for D3 S7/8 AP -3 D1/D2 damage output will change when coming from a BS 3+ Inceptor vs a BS 3+ Devastator? Or that you're incapable of adjusting 10D3 to 4D3? Using a calculator to multiply by .4?

I think we were comparing vs T8 3+, No Invuln? How much difference do you think there is between 4x S10 -4 D3-6 (Average 4) and 4x S9 -3 DD6 (Average 3.5) Vs T8 3+ No Invuln?

1 Repulsor Laser Destroyer 4 shots, 2.68 hits, 1.7956 successful wounding rolls, 7.1824 damage.

Will the BS 3+ Devastators hit more often than the BS3+ Repulsor? Will S10 wound T8 more than S9? Are you incapable of guestimating -or using a calculator to multiply - 1.7956 x 3.5 after being told what 1.7956 x 4 is?

I'll even grant you'll have to add in a 6+ armor save to the calculations. A feat never before accomplished in the history of Mathammer players vs Orks and IG.

So I repeat - Las and Plas numbers were already done far enough most can extrapolate the numbers - Probably in their head - for the -Cannons - thus I did a third different anti-tank weapon choice entirely. Why are you complaining?

A: Ok, so I see what you were doing so far as the purposes of comparing new weapons not already in the pile. Fair enough. I read the original post as a comparison of units, and thought you had taken a sub-par version of the unit to compare.
However. .
B: The Devs will actually will hit differently, because one model can have a BS of 2+ and fire twice with a Cherub. So with Las you get five shots vs. four, at a different save modifier, with two shots at BS2+. Imo this is a meaningful enough a distinction and more worthwhile too look at than Missile Launchers.

C: For more interesting weapon variation you can go with Grav Cannons, which outperform Lascannons vs. such a target. I get (3x4x.666x.333x2+(2x4x.666x.333x2)) for 8.87 wounds.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But how does a Land Raider compare to a Stompa, Gorka/Morkanaugt, Squiggoth, Tantaulus, Vampyr Raider/Hunter, Greater Demon, etc?

Greater deamons are good....what are you talking about? LOL My 3++ -1 damage LOC dumping out supersmites and infernal gateway with a +3/4 to cast is a game winner. Tantaulus can carry quite possibly the most powerful melle unit in the game for it's cost...Vampyr Raider? What is this? A corsair unit? I've already described that that does not count because it's not really even a real unit. Hunter? Ehhh - it's bad but it's not as bad as a LR - you can take 3 for the cost of a LR and you get double the t8 wounds with about the same firepower.

How do you get a 3++?

The only way to get that, to my knowledge, is by cheating.

I think it's worth taking a step back and remembering that a lot of us posting in this thread play Marines and it's easy to be salty about Marines and the state of the game in general if you're playing Marines. They're in a really bad place.

I've still got fingers crossed that Marines are in a better spot when Codex: Marines 2.0 drops. I'm not optimistic by any stretch, but I'm hoping GW is smart enough to realise that Marines are a big percentage of the player base and leaving the faction a garbage fire is probably a bad idea.

Vanilla marines like smouldering dumpster fire. BA like raging dumpster fire. :(

The Newman wrote:
I think it's worth taking a step back and remembering that a lot of us posting in this thread play Marines and it's easy to be salty about Marines and the state of the game in general if you're playing Marines. They're in a really bad place.

I've still got fingers crossed that Marines are in a better spot when Codex: Marines 2.0 drops. I'm not optimistic by any stretch, but I'm hoping GW is smart enough to realise that Marines are a big percentage of the player base and leaving the faction a garbage fire is probably a bad idea.

I'm expecting it'll be the same as CSM 2.0 just adding new units in and calling it a day.

BrianDavion wrote:

The Newman wrote:
I think it's worth taking a step back and remembering that a lot of us posting in this thread play Marines and it's easy to be salty about Marines and the state of the game in general if you're playing Marines. They're in a really bad place.

I've still got fingers crossed that Marines are in a better spot when Codex: Marines 2.0 drops. I'm not optimistic by any stretch, but I'm hoping GW is smart enough to realise that Marines are a big percentage of the player base and leaving the faction a garbage fire is probably a bad idea.

I'm expecting it'll be the same as CSM 2.0 just adding new units in and calling it a day.

I think it's going to be wildly different, with a big focus on Primaris. There's already 10+ units to be added into the next book so it's already more different than the Chaos release.

 Insectum7 wrote:


A: Ok, so I see what you were doing so far as the purposes of comparing new weapons not already in the pile. Fair enough. I read the original post as a comparison of units, and thought you had taken a sub-par version of the unit to compare.
However. .
B: The Devs will actually will hit differently, because one model can have a BS of 2+ and fire twice with a Cherub. So with Las you get five shots vs. four, at a different save modifier, with two shots at BS2+. Imo this is a meaningful enough a distinction and more worthwhile too look at than Missile Launchers.

C: For more interesting weapon variation you can go with Grav Cannons, which outperform Lascannons vs. such a target. I get (3x4x.666x.333x2+(2x4x.666x.333x2)) for 8.87 wounds.

A. I accept your apology... that you didn't actually offer.

B. the Cherub is one turn only - Not an average performance that can be counted on turn after turn. The Signum doesn't make them BS2, its a +1 to Hit. This makes a difference on rerolls, but I was also trying to avoid reroll/aura/one-turn etc because it was as much about comparing the weapons as the host unit - plus, you could be doing math all day. As I have pointed out numerous times, if you feel the distinction is significant enough, you're welcome to do your own homework without complaining I didn't do it for you. Personally I'd make me an Excel Spreadsheet if I were as demanding on each and every weapon and upgrade option- then you only have to create a formula once or twice, and plug units/values.

C. Grav - using the same methodology to reduce apples/oranges - would be 16 shots, 10.72 hits, 3.53 wounding rolls, 2.97 after armor saves, 5.94 Damage after D3(2) damage per. This should (Again) be fairly similar to the plasma S7 -3 D1 numbers, simply adjusted to D2 instead of D1

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But how does a Land Raider compare to a Stompa, Gorka/Morkanaugt, Squiggoth, Tantaulus, Vampyr Raider/Hunter, Greater Demon, etc?

Greater deamons are good....what are you talking about? LOL My 3++ -1 damage LOC dumping out supersmites and infernal gateway with a +3/4 to cast is a game winner. Tantaulus can carry quite possibly the most powerful melle unit in the game for it's cost...Vampyr Raider? What is this? A corsair unit? I've already described that that does not count because it's not really even a real unit. Hunter? Ehhh - it's bad but it's not as bad as a LR - you can take 3 for the cost of a LR and you get double the t8 wounds with about the same firepower.

How do you get a 3++?

The only way to get that, to my knowledge, is by cheating.

impossible robes.