Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Pretty simple question for you guys in regards to Space Marine Bikes and the new Bolter Drill rule. While it made clear that Infantry units can utilize the Bolter Drill and Vehicles such as the LRC cannot, when it comes to Bikes most people say they can utilize it but some at my game store argue they can't despite it saying so. Appreciate the support to aid in the clarification on this as I would like to avoid any unnecessary conflict and confusion regarding this
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/30 14:46:34
err, it's pretty clearly written there. Are they a "biker", then yes, they get it.
Those claiming they don't just don't know how to read or haven't even looked at the rule.
The only thing I can fathom on why people at you LGS would have said this is if the specific situation bringing it up involved Deathwatch, which specifically cannot use Bolter Discipline at the same time as their Special Issue Ammo, but that is a blanket rule for them and has nothing to do with Biikes specifically
Ironwolf45 wrote: Pretty simple question for you guys in regards to Space Marine Bikes and the new Bolter Drill rule. While it made clear that Infantry units can utilize the Bolter Drill and Vehicles such as the LRC cannot, when it comes to Bikes most people say they can utilize it but some at my game store argue they can't. Appreciate the clarification on this as I would like to avoid any unnecessary conflict and confusion regarding this
It says if any of the following apply. Not all of the following. If any.
So, given the third bullet point includes all keyword biker units, then it applies.
Just by chance, you weren't trying to use this on Sammael were you? Because that's different I think...unless it's not? Does the last surviving gravbike in existence get counted?
Perhaps more details?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/29 19:27:24
Also worth noting, people who don't run marine armies, will likely have "heard" on Facebook, podcasts or forums that "vehicles no longer get bolter discipline", and that's what they're running with - rather than actually reading the frikkin' rule. Simply pull it up on your phone (or print the damn thing out) and show them.
There's no room for discussion or debate at this point.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just by chance, you weren't trying to use this on Sammael were you? Because that's different I think...unless it's not? Does the last surviving gravbike in existence get counted?
Perhaps more details?
Not sure how it wouldn't apply if he's on Corvex, he's got the Biker keyword and isn't a vehicle. Totally fits.
bullyboy wrote: err, it's pretty clearly written there. Are they a "biker", then yes, they get it.
Those claiming they don't just don't know how to read or haven't even looked at the rule.
"With regards the Cadre Fireblade’s Volley Fire ability, what exactly is meant by ‘may fire an extra shot’?"
Considering this was just added to the FAQ I'm happy I play 40k with my friends
Galef wrote: The only thing I can fathom on why people at you LGS would have said this is if the specific situation bringing it up involved Deathwatch, which specifically cannot use Bolter Discipline at the same time as their Special Issue Ammo, but that is a blanket rule for them and has nothing to do with Biikes specifically
-
Which I think was just errata'd in the most recent Warhammer Community post (today?)
4) Codex: Deathwatch
We made a change to the Special Issue Ammunition ability to explain how it combines with the newly added Bolter Discipline ability. We have received numerous emails asking for clarity about whether or not, when firing special issue ammunition, the normal rules for firing Rapid Fire weapons apply.
The answer, simply, is yes – when firing Special Issue Ammunition the modifications to the Rapid Fire ability that Bolter Discipline make do not apply. We have added the following designer’s note after this errata to clarify this:
Designers note: Note that the normal rules for Rapid Fire weapons, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 core rules, continue to apply when shooting a Rapid Fire weapon with special issue ammunition.
"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just by chance, you weren't trying to use this on Sammael were you? Because that's different I think...unless it's not? Does the last surviving gravbike in existence get counted?
Perhaps more details?
Not sure how it wouldn't apply if he's on Corvex, he's got the Biker keyword and isn't a vehicle. Totally fits.
I don't have the book at all, so I have no idea what it is or isn't. I just know it's got fly, so it's not technically a bike? I mean fluff-wise it's pretty singular. I'm not lawyering up a RAW v RAI, honestly. I just want to know if Corvex is a bike?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just by chance, you weren't trying to use this on Sammael were you? Because that's different I think...unless it's not? Does the last surviving gravbike in existence get counted?
Perhaps more details?
Not sure how it wouldn't apply if he's on Corvex, he's got the Biker keyword and isn't a vehicle. Totally fits.
I don't have the book at all, so I have no idea what it is or isn't. I just know it's got fly, so it's not technically a bike? I mean fluff-wise it's pretty singular. I'm not lawyering up a RAW v RAI, honestly. I just want to know if Corvex is a bike?
Grimtuff wrote: I really do wonder about some people in this hobby.
As do I. Just out of interest, OP, do you know why they thought bikes didn't get it? I'm genuinely curious what the line of argument was that could lead them to that conclusion.
Grimtuff wrote: I really do wonder about some people in this hobby.
As do I. Just out of interest, OP, do you know why they thought bikes didn't get it? I'm genuinely curious what the line of argument was that could lead them to that conclusion.
I talked to him about it and as mentioned above earlier by Galef, he was actually referring to the Deathwatch Bikers in regards to their Special Ammunition. When we first talked about it, he only said bikers but apparently he was playing against a Deathwatch player who was using the rule with Special Ammunition still. My mate isn't a power gamer and it was just confusion on their parts as very few people play Deathwatch units at my store.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/31 18:15:41
Deathwatch Bikers get Bolter Discipline when firing standard rounds. They do not get it while firing SIA rounds (yes, DW can opt not to fire SIA for more dakka).
Bikers in Veteran teams still apply from the above, even though they dont have the BIKER keyword
Grimtuff wrote: I really do wonder about some people in this hobby.
As do I. Just out of interest, OP, do you know why they thought bikes didn't get it? I'm genuinely curious what the line of argument was that could lead them to that conclusion.
I talked to him about it and as mentioned above earlier, he was actually referring to the Deathwatch Bikers in regards to their Special Ammunition. When we talk he mentioned and said only bikers but apparently he was playing against a Deathwatch player who was using the rule with Special Ammunition still. My mate isn't a power gamer and it was just confusion on their parts as very few people play Deathwatch units at my store.
Ok, so I can see what the issue might be here.
Pre-errata, Deathwatch Bikers (page 79 of Codex: Adeptus Astartes Deathwatch) have the BIKER keyword and thus benefit from the BIKER portion of Bolter Discipline.
Deathwatch Veterans (page 72 of Codex: Adeptus Astartes Deathwatch) do not have the BIKER keyword, even if you include a "Biker" model. The model has the BIKER keyword "For the purposes of determining what models a vehicle can transport" but for no other purpose. Thus a Biker in a Veteran squad does not benefit from the BIKER portion of the Bolter Discipline rule.
However, this was fixed in the latest errata so now they have the BIKER keyword "For the purposes of the Bolter Discipline ability and for determining what models a vehicle can transport".
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/30 15:03:02
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just by chance, you weren't trying to use this on Sammael were you? Because that's different I think...unless it's not? Does the last surviving gravbike in existence get counted?
Perhaps more details?
Not sure how it wouldn't apply if he's on Corvex, he's got the Biker keyword and isn't a vehicle. Totally fits.
I don't have the book at all, so I have no idea what it is or isn't. I just know it's got fly, so it's not technically a bike? I mean fluff-wise it's pretty singular. I'm not lawyering up a RAW v RAI, honestly. I just want to know if Corvex is a bike?
are you aware of what a jetbike is?
It says it right there in the word jetBIKE.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just by chance, you weren't trying to use this on Sammael were you? Because that's different I think...unless it's not? Does the last surviving gravbike in existence get counted?
Perhaps more details?
Not sure how it wouldn't apply if he's on Corvex, he's got the Biker keyword and isn't a vehicle. Totally fits.
I don't have the book at all, so I have no idea what it is or isn't. I just know it's got fly, so it's not technically a bike? I mean fluff-wise it's pretty singular. I'm not lawyering up a RAW v RAI, honestly. I just want to know if Corvex is a bike?
are you aware of what a jetbike is?
It says it right there in the word jetBIKE.
Again, wasn't trying to be a pest. But it seems like something GW would do, to say Corvus doesn't get the rule. Honestly though, outside of DW Vet squads, is there anyone who is loading up bikes into their armies?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/31 17:02:21
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Again, wasn't trying to be a pest. But it seems like something GW would do, to say Corvus doesn't get the rule. Honestly though, outside of DW Vet squads, is there anyone who is loading up bikes into their armies?
Dark Angel Ravenwing is still a fairly popular option atm and Bikes are starting to make a small comeback thanks to this Bolter Drill rule. Deathwatch Bikes are useful, flexible units now as while they can't use the Bolter Drill with Special Ammunition, the ability to pick and chose to use EITHER Standard Biker Bolter shots with the Bolter Drill OR the Special Ammunition Shots.
Grimtuff wrote: I really do wonder about some people in this hobby.
As do I. Just out of interest, OP, do you know why they thought bikes didn't get it? I'm genuinely curious what the line of argument was that could lead them to that conclusion.
Not particularly related to the thread, but multiple times over the years I have seen people get intractably hung up on the classification of bikes. Often in the context of bikes being/not being vehicles. Something just trips in their head and they can't work past it.
"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..." Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe.
Grimtuff wrote: I really do wonder about some people in this hobby.
As do I. Just out of interest, OP, do you know why they thought bikes didn't get it? I'm genuinely curious what the line of argument was that could lead them to that conclusion.
Not particularly related to the thread, but multiple times over the years I have seen people get intractably hung up on the classification of bikes. Often in the context of bikes being/not being vehicles. Something just trips in their head and they can't work past it.
I wouldn't mind it becoming an open-topped transport with 1 man capacity. But this would bring in all sorts of silly issues - coherency, wound allocation, etc.
Grimtuff wrote: I really do wonder about some people in this hobby.
As do I. Just out of interest, OP, do you know why they thought bikes didn't get it? I'm genuinely curious what the line of argument was that could lead them to that conclusion.
Not particularly related to the thread, but multiple times over the years I have seen people get intractably hung up on the classification of bikes. Often in the context of bikes being/not being vehicles. Something just trips in their head and they can't work past it.
I wouldn't mind it becoming an open-topped transport with 1 man capacity. But this would bring in all sorts of silly issues - coherency, wound allocation, etc.
With vehicles getting Wounds and Toughness in 8E, vehicles and bikes have never been "closer" in how they function.
I wouldn't have minded if all BIKES also got the VEHICLE keyword too. They are 1-2 driver/passenger vehicles after all. The biggest issue with this would be all the rules/abilities that interact with vehicles would have a disproportionate advantage over BIKEs. But with a points decrease on all BIKEs, it could work.
-
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/31 20:39:48
Grimtuff wrote: I really do wonder about some people in this hobby.
As do I. Just out of interest, OP, do you know why they thought bikes didn't get it? I'm genuinely curious what the line of argument was that could lead them to that conclusion.
Not particularly related to the thread, but multiple times over the years I have seen people get intractably hung up on the classification of bikes. Often in the context of bikes being/not being vehicles. Something just trips in their head and they can't work past it.
I wouldn't mind it becoming an open-topped transport with 1 man capacity. But this would bring in all sorts of silly issues - coherency, wound allocation, etc.
With vehicles getting Wounds and Toughness in 8E, vehicles and bikes have never been "closer" in how they function.
Not quite true. In 2nd Ed and Rogue Trader, Bikes were Vehicles and had the rules of such(including Armor Values).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/01 03:17:06
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Legio Suturvora 2000 points (painted)
Daemonhunters 1000 points (painted)
Flesh Tearers 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '02 52nd; Balt GT '05 16th
Kabal of the Tortured Soul 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '08 85th; Mechanicon '09 12th
Greenwing 1000 points (painted) - Adepticon Team Tourny 2013
