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2019/06/06 12:38:36
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
I guess my response is that Chaos with no buffs and no support and no psychic isn't really supposed to be superpowerful?
They get Warp Time, DTtFE, other strats and abilities I don't know, other psychic buffs, and by the time the movement phase is over, you have ten angry bezerkers doing like 72 attacks on the charge, or 52 without. +1 for BftBG, +1 for charge, +1 for chain sword, all at S5/6.
Not to mention their legion traits, re-rolls, or other chaos stuff I'm forgetting. Oh, and they are likely re-rolling hits and exploding on 6s.
I wish to god my units of 10 guys could pump out 70 S5/6 attacks. Yeah, we need to buff their swords. They need help.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 12:39:41
2019/06/06 13:19:00
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I guess my response is that Chaos with no buffs and no support and no psychic isn't really supposed to be superpowerful?
They get Warp Time, DTtFE, other strats and abilities I don't know, other psychic buffs, and by the time the movement phase is over, you have ten angry bezerkers doing like 72 attacks on the charge, or 52 without. +1 for BftBG, +1 for charge, +1 for chain sword, all at S5/6.
Not to mention their legion traits, re-rolls, or other chaos stuff I'm forgetting. Oh, and they are likely re-rolling hits and exploding on 6s.
I wish to god my units of 10 guys could pump out 70 S5/6 attacks. Yeah, we need to buff their swords. They need help.
This is very much back to the same issue that doubel shooting russes causes, allowing something to double up on a phase is so much of a power creep that actually allowing fixes that make everything that doesn't get 2 go's at that phase becomes OP when given to that unit.
Bezerkers fighting twice is a bad solution to marine CC being pathetic in 8th. They should be terrifying to an extent but they currently arn't but by the time enough changes are made to make base marines ok they look guard levels of OP.
2019/06/06 13:27:55
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I guess my response is that Chaos with no buffs and no support and no psychic isn't really supposed to be superpowerful?
They get Warp Time, DTtFE, other strats and abilities I don't know, other psychic buffs, and by the time the movement phase is over, you have ten angry bezerkers doing like 72 attacks on the charge, or 52 without. +1 for BftBG, +1 for charge, +1 for chain sword, all at S5/6.
Not to mention their legion traits, re-rolls, or other chaos stuff I'm forgetting. Oh, and they are likely re-rolling hits and exploding on 6s.
I wish to god my units of 10 guys could pump out 70 S5/6 attacks. Yeah, we need to buff their swords. They need help.
This is very much back to the same issue that doubel shooting russes causes, allowing something to double up on a phase is so much of a power creep that actually allowing fixes that make everything that doesn't get 2 go's at that phase becomes OP when given to that unit.
Bezerkers fighting twice is a bad solution to marine CC being pathetic in 8th. They should be terrifying to an extent but they currently arn't but by the time enough changes are made to make base marines ok they look guard levels of OP.
What about a simple name change? Chaos boys get the "Kornate Chainsword" and Marines get the "Chainsword". Thus anything that affects the Marine ones don't affect the Chaos one? Or just add a Racial trait to marines, rather than change the weapon.
2019/06/06 15:44:03
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I guess my response is that Chaos with no buffs and no support and no psychic isn't really supposed to be superpowerful?
They get Warp Time, DTtFE, other strats and abilities I don't know, other psychic buffs, and by the time the movement phase is over, you have ten angry bezerkers doing like 72 attacks on the charge, or 52 without. +1 for BftBG, +1 for charge, +1 for chain sword, all at S5/6.
Not to mention their legion traits, re-rolls, or other chaos stuff I'm forgetting. Oh, and they are likely re-rolling hits and exploding on 6s.
I wish to god my units of 10 guys could pump out 70 S5/6 attacks. Yeah, we need to buff their swords. They need help.
This is very much back to the same issue that doubel shooting russes causes, allowing something to double up on a phase is so much of a power creep that actually allowing fixes that make everything that doesn't get 2 go's at that phase becomes OP when given to that unit.
Bezerkers fighting twice is a bad solution to marine CC being pathetic in 8th. They should be terrifying to an extent but they currently arn't but by the time enough changes are made to make base marines ok they look guard levels of OP.
What about a simple name change? Chaos boys get the "Kornate Chainsword" and Marines get the "Chainsword". Thus anything that affects the Marine ones don't affect the Chaos one? Or just add a Racial trait to marines, rather than change the weapon.
Because it's purely bezerkers that are kinda silly, watching choas marines get mutilated by Catachans is about as fluffy as watching Catacham roid junkies destroy loyalists marines.
2019/06/06 15:54:14
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I guess my response is that Chaos with no buffs and no support and no psychic isn't really supposed to be superpowerful?
They get Warp Time, DTtFE, other strats and abilities I don't know, other psychic buffs, and by the time the movement phase is over, you have ten angry bezerkers doing like 72 attacks on the charge, or 52 without. +1 for BftBG, +1 for charge, +1 for chain sword, all at S5/6.
Not to mention their legion traits, re-rolls, or other chaos stuff I'm forgetting. Oh, and they are likely re-rolling hits and exploding on 6s.
I wish to god my units of 10 guys could pump out 70 S5/6 attacks. Yeah, we need to buff their swords. They need help.
This is very much back to the same issue that doubel shooting russes causes, allowing something to double up on a phase is so much of a power creep that actually allowing fixes that make everything that doesn't get 2 go's at that phase becomes OP when given to that unit.
Bezerkers fighting twice is a bad solution to marine CC being pathetic in 8th. They should be terrifying to an extent but they currently arn't but by the time enough changes are made to make base marines ok they look guard levels of OP.
What about a simple name change? Chaos boys get the "Kornate Chainsword" and Marines get the "Chainsword". Thus anything that affects the Marine ones don't affect the Chaos one? Or just add a Racial trait to marines, rather than change the weapon.
Because it's purely bezerkers that are kinda silly, watching choas marines get mutilated by Catachans is about as fluffy as watching Catacham roid junkies destroy loyalists marines.
Wait, I'm confused. Are you agreeing with me, because I'm not sure. Catachans have like 2 units that get chain swords? And one of them is an HQ? I also don't see what Chaos Space marines are getting torn up by Catachan chainswords? Chaos marines should be fighting first, getting death to the emperor, and all the other shenanigans. Catachans just have 5-10 S4 attacks.....
2019/06/06 18:00:38
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I guess my response is that Chaos with no buffs and no support and no psychic isn't really supposed to be superpowerful?
They get Warp Time, DTtFE, other strats and abilities I don't know, other psychic buffs, and by the time the movement phase is over, you have ten angry bezerkers doing like 72 attacks on the charge, or 52 without. +1 for BftBG, +1 for charge, +1 for chain sword, all at S5/6.
Not to mention their legion traits, re-rolls, or other chaos stuff I'm forgetting. Oh, and they are likely re-rolling hits and exploding on 6s.
I wish to god my units of 10 guys could pump out 70 S5/6 attacks. Yeah, we need to buff their swords. They need help.
This is very much back to the same issue that doubel shooting russes causes, allowing something to double up on a phase is so much of a power creep that actually allowing fixes that make everything that doesn't get 2 go's at that phase becomes OP when given to that unit.
Bezerkers fighting twice is a bad solution to marine CC being pathetic in 8th. They should be terrifying to an extent but they currently arn't but by the time enough changes are made to make base marines ok they look guard levels of OP.
What about a simple name change? Chaos boys get the "Kornate Chainsword" and Marines get the "Chainsword". Thus anything that affects the Marine ones don't affect the Chaos one? Or just add a Racial trait to marines, rather than change the weapon.
Because it's purely bezerkers that are kinda silly, watching choas marines get mutilated by Catachans is about as fluffy as watching Catacham roid junkies destroy loyalists marines.
Wait, I'm confused. Are you agreeing with me, because I'm not sure. Catachans have like 2 units that get chain swords? And one of them is an HQ? I also don't see what Chaos Space marines are getting torn up by Catachan chainswords? Chaos marines should be fighting first, getting death to the emperor, and all the other shenanigans. Catachans just have 5-10 S4 attacks.....
Chainswords are the iconic weapon of spacemarines, who by and large currently suck very hard at CC to the point that I've watched time and time again marines get mutilated by Catachans in 8th edition. I don't think just because bezerkers were so bad at CCGW had to give them 2 fight phases for 1 to make them sort of playable is a good enough reason to prevent fixing the iconic weapons and statlines to actually be able to justify their points cost.
If bezerkers are genuinely OP with natural 6's to wound allowing you to make an additional to wound roll fix bezerkers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 18:01:34
2019/06/06 20:29:40
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I guess my response is that Chaos with no buffs and no support and no psychic isn't really supposed to be superpowerful?
They get Warp Time, DTtFE, other strats and abilities I don't know, other psychic buffs, and by the time the movement phase is over, you have ten angry bezerkers doing like 72 attacks on the charge, or 52 without. +1 for BftBG, +1 for charge, +1 for chain sword, all at S5/6.
Not to mention their legion traits, re-rolls, or other chaos stuff I'm forgetting. Oh, and they are likely re-rolling hits and exploding on 6s.
I wish to god my units of 10 guys could pump out 70 S5/6 attacks. Yeah, we need to buff their swords. They need help.
This is very much back to the same issue that doubel shooting russes causes, allowing something to double up on a phase is so much of a power creep that actually allowing fixes that make everything that doesn't get 2 go's at that phase becomes OP when given to that unit.
Bezerkers fighting twice is a bad solution to marine CC being pathetic in 8th. They should be terrifying to an extent but they currently arn't but by the time enough changes are made to make base marines ok they look guard levels of OP.
What about a simple name change? Chaos boys get the "Kornate Chainsword" and Marines get the "Chainsword". Thus anything that affects the Marine ones don't affect the Chaos one? Or just add a Racial trait to marines, rather than change the weapon.
Because it's purely bezerkers that are kinda silly, watching choas marines get mutilated by Catachans is about as fluffy as watching Catacham roid junkies destroy loyalists marines.
Wait, I'm confused. Are you agreeing with me, because I'm not sure. Catachans have like 2 units that get chain swords? And one of them is an HQ? I also don't see what Chaos Space marines are getting torn up by Catachan chainswords? Chaos marines should be fighting first, getting death to the emperor, and all the other shenanigans. Catachans just have 5-10 S4 attacks.....
Chainswords are the iconic weapon of spacemarines, who by and large currently suck very hard at CC to the point that I've watched time and time again marines get mutilated by Catachans in 8th edition. I don't think just because bezerkers were so bad at CCGW had to give them 2 fight phases for 1 to make them sort of playable is a good enough reason to prevent fixing the iconic weapons and statlines to actually be able to justify their points cost.
If bezerkers are genuinely OP with natural 6's to wound allowing you to make an additional to wound roll fix bezerkers.
Again, you went all over the place here. Spacemarines suck at CC. Ok, I would argue that you are buying a shooty unit and demanding it be amazing at CC. Don't know what to tell you except changing Chain swords won't fix that issue. Also, GW won't and doesn't look backwards. They are done with the vanilla marines. And if you haven't noticed, Primaris don't really use Chainswords...so, who would benefit from a chainsword upgrade?
As to your point about Catachans, again, I can't speak to your personal experience, but their attacks are statistically the same as marines. The have S4 attacks. You can't tell me that they are "dominant" at CC when they hit for less attacks at the same exact S4, D1, and are WAY easier to kill. The numbers don't back it up. Unless you throw in all the extra stuff? But then we get to throw in all the extra stuff that SMs get and they still come out on top.
Finally, Bezerkers are OP, or they cost too much? Honestly I am trying to understand this point. Zerkers are one unit in a huuuuuuge army. That are easily killed off. They have one good strength, other than that they kinda suck and no one really uses them.
So, units of the Imperium that use chain swords:
Guard HQs Guard Sgts
The SoB Priest guys with the big swords
The SoBHQs SMHQs SM Vanguard Vets
SM Sgts
Obviously DW but they can take anything they want
That's it? There is no reason to make the base weapon of guys that never really even use it better. If you buffed the Chainsword, would it really replace anything on a Space Marine Captain? Or a Company Commander? No. Because they want Thunder hammers and Power swords.
Vanguard Vets are the only unit I can see getting major use of them, and even they would be better fixed with a unit trait, rather than a weapon upgrade.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/06 20:30:27
2019/06/06 22:42:03
Subject: Re:The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
Sorry but marines are not a shooting unit they are generalist.
Also at no point does a troop marine come off better against equivelent points of guardsmen. Primaris come close, but thats to be expected when they are paying 4 points for a second wound and attack, primaris might be the future of loyalist marines but Choas arn't changing.
Making the chainsword slightly better gives GW an option to improve what are all very mediocre CC performance of units that fluff wise should be significantly better than their tabletop performance.
Also as of yet you can't say for certain what the Primaris CC unit will be equipped with as they currently don't have one.
2019/06/07 08:45:11
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I guess my response is that Chaos with no buffs and no support and no psychic isn't really supposed to be superpowerful?
They get Warp Time, DTtFE, other strats and abilities I don't know, other psychic buffs, and by the time the movement phase is over, you have ten angry bezerkers doing like 72 attacks on the charge, or 52 without. +1 for BftBG, +1 for charge, +1 for chain sword, all at S5/6.
Not to mention their legion traits, re-rolls, or other chaos stuff I'm forgetting. Oh, and they are likely re-rolling hits and exploding on 6s.
I wish to god my units of 10 guys could pump out 70 S5/6 attacks. Yeah, we need to buff their swords. They need help.
Excuse me but you are a parade exemple of someone not realizing why Choas Space Marines often suck comparade to DG or TS:
HURR DURR BUT YOU HAVETH SO MANY EXPLODING DICES: No i don't i only have them against Imperium. Or if i waste Relics, which i also need for DP's etc to get into melee actually. Meaning i need to spend more CP in an Army that only is kept alive due to CP on combat enhancing effects.
Warp time does not always go off.
Thirdly: It frankly does not matter after a certain point if i have 70 or 50 attacks, mostly due to the fact that they maybee touch the enemy then stand there and get wiped because surprise a 3+ save does not count for much if you pay 17 pts per model.
Fourth: Rerolliing comes at a price. Sixth: Powers also come at a price.
in case you wondering how much: Lord with 93 pts. Sorcerer another 90+ 10 Khorne berzerkers 170 (asuming Chainsword and AXE) +10 for the icon.
Not to mention that you need also to be lucky terrain wise.
Chances are also that you get unlucky and out of the reroll aura of the lord. Chances are your Psyker blows himself up. Chances also are that after your 10 berzerks died you have two HQ choices standing out.
Also we have not considered CP prices at this stage which you would need 1 for a reroll, 3 for fighting again, 0 for Votwl because in order to get cheap CP and enough reach you will be using RC WHICH CAN'T use Votwl.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, you went all over the place here. Spacemarines suck at CC. Ok, I would argue that you are buying a shooty unit and demanding it be amazing at CC. Don't know what to tell you except changing Chain swords won't fix that issue. Also, GW won't and doesn't look backwards. They are done with the vanilla marines. And if you haven't noticed, Primaris don't really use Chainswords...so, who would benefit from a chainsword upgrade?
Marines are generalists and pay for stats so no you DON'T buy a shooting unit, you would buy a shooting unit if you bought firwarriors. (which surprise do massively better for less points)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/07 08:52:49
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/06/07 14:43:36
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
Ok, "comes at a price" is a silly argument. Everything in the game "comes at a price". I really want to play an all troop Custodes list, but that comes at a price, being I lose.
Getting back to the point, if you want to make JUST SM Chain swords better, it has to be a trait, or a strat, because buffing stock chain swords would have unprovoked consequences.
Then that raises the question of how do you inherently buff a race that is in the middle of a racial evolution? That's like saying that all the sudden lets make lascannons more effective because my Predators aren't up to fluff. Predators and chainswords are relics. GW is trying to squat them. Hell, primaris can't even use them. So, the question remains, why are we even talking about this?
2019/06/07 14:45:02
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, "comes at a price" is a silly argument. Everything in the game "comes at a price". I really want to play an all troop Custodes list, but that comes at a price, being I lose.
Getting back to the point, if you want to make JUST SM Chain swords better, it has to be a trait, or a strat, because buffing stock chain swords would have unprovoked consequences.
Then that raises the question of how do you inherently buff a race that is in the middle of a racial evolution? That's like saying that all the sudden lets make lascannons more effective because my Predators aren't up to fluff. Predators and chainswords are relics. GW is trying to squat them. Hell, primaris can't even use them. So, the question remains, why are we even talking about this?
So you pick one arguement disregarding every other part of it. Slow clap, Congratulations.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/07 15:25:55
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/06/07 20:51:25
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
Galef wrote: Not a bad change, but I don't really think it gives the chainsword either what it needs, nor does it make sense why it's getting D3 extra attack.
Plus, mechanically this change would be tedious. Imagine 20 CSM having to roll 20 D3s just to add up how many extra attacks the unit gets. No thanx.
What chainswords SHOULD be is AP-1. They are made to literally RIP into armour.
So make them S: User AP:-1 DMG: 1 "This weapon generates 1 extra attack each time you make an attack with it."
Simple, done.
-
Yeah, i'd say this is the best possible option, especially as a lot of the units that can currently spam chainswords but not power weapons tend to really under perform with AP-. increasing the actual number attacks more than the current +1 would cause far too many unintended consequences with units that already have special rules that give them additional attacks, not to mention the dice bloat.
2019/06/07 21:17:14
Subject: The Humble Chainsword gets some steroids.
Galef wrote: Not a bad change, but I don't really think it gives the chainsword either what it needs, nor does it make sense why it's getting D3 extra attack. Plus, mechanically this change would be tedious. Imagine 20 CSM having to roll 20 D3s just to add up how many extra attacks the unit gets. No thanx.
What chainswords SHOULD be is AP-1. They are made to literally RIP into armour. So make them S: User AP:-1 DMG: 1 "This weapon generates 1 extra attack each time you make an attack with it."
Simple, done.
-
Yeah, i'd say this is the best possible option, especially as a lot of the units that can currently spam chainswords but not power weapons tend to really under perform with AP-. increasing the actual number attacks more than the current +1 would cause far too many unintended consequences with units that already have special rules that give them additional attacks, not to mention the dice bloat.
Yes, that was my thinking originally. Whether someone disagrees that Chainswords should be AP-1, it is by far the smoothest change that: A) doesn't involved extra dice B) doesn't involve an extra step and C) Isn't so powerful as to merit a points cost, or maybe just 1ppm
But recently, I am warming up to the "each unmodified 6 to wound against an INFANTRY= 2 wounds instead of 1". Doesn't add more dice for the bearer to roll, but causes the opponent to roll more saves, which should be the intent of a Chainsword: overwhelm the target with a barrage of teeth.
-
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/07 21:17:50
Galef wrote: Not a bad change, but I don't really think it gives the chainsword either what it needs, nor does it make sense why it's getting D3 extra attack.
Plus, mechanically this change would be tedious. Imagine 20 CSM having to roll 20 D3s just to add up how many extra attacks the unit gets. No thanx.
What chainswords SHOULD be is AP-1. They are made to literally RIP into armour.
So make them S: User AP:-1 DMG: 1 "This weapon generates 1 extra attack each time you make an attack with it."
Simple, done.
-
Yeah, i'd say this is the best possible option, especially as a lot of the units that can currently spam chainswords but not power weapons tend to really under perform with AP-. increasing the actual number attacks more than the current +1 would cause far too many unintended consequences with units that already have special rules that give them additional attacks, not to mention the dice bloat.
Yes, that was my thinking originally. Whether someone disagrees that Chainswords should be AP-1, it is by far the smoothest change that:
A) doesn't involved extra dice
B) doesn't involve an extra step and
C) Isn't so powerful as to merit a points cost, or maybe just 1ppm
But recently, I am warming up to the "each unmodified 6 to wound against an INFANTRY= 2 wounds instead of 1". Doesn't add more dice for the bearer to roll, but causes the opponent to roll more saves, which should be the intent of a Chainsword: overwhelm the target with a barrage of teeth.
-
Thats pretty interesting and got me thinking. If my spread sheet is correct, Vs MEQ, the unsaved wounds for reg SM, CSM with DTfE and BA +1 to wound for the both options should be as follows, assuming the basic 11 chainsword attacks for an assault squad or CSM squad.
SM Baseline:1.220 unsaved wounds
SM Chainsword AP-1:1.833 unsaved wounds
SM Exploding 6's to wound: 1.626 unsaved wounds
Togusa wrote: 20D3 is too much, but 10D6 hand flamers deepstriking 3' that automatically hit is fine?
Think he referred more to the bugger it would be time wise rolling. 20 dice to see how many attacks you get. Then to hit, to wound etc. With flamers...well that's 10 dice rather than 20 and then you get to ignore to hit so it's faster to go through.
d3 attack is less of a balance worry rather than more dices to roll. 8th ed has so much dice rolling and rerolls that typical game is slower than typical game of 2nd edition! This would make it even slower.
At least copy the rule from lootas so it's one roll for whole unit. That way it's 1 roll and 1 result to check rather than 10 rolls adding up together. Or even better just make it 2 extra attacks. Why have dice rolls just for sake of dice rolling?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/08 14:38:20
