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 Andersp90 wrote:


In "the devastation of ball", Guilliman showed up with his primaris mariens shortly after the rift was formed. We are talking days. No sure how that fits with the rest of the timeline.

Im pretty sure that for the Blood Angels, it was shortly after the Rift Opened, for Guilliman it was considerably longer.

For everything which has advanced, not a great deal has actually changed.

Cadia fell, and Chaos flooded the galaxy... but the Imperium survived pretty much intact.
The Cicatrix Maledictum has cut the galaxy in two... but important characters seem to be able to cross from one side to the other just fine.
A new Eldar godling was birthed, draining energy from the infinity circuits and Biel Tan was shattered... but the Eldar seem to be just carrying on much as normal.
Necrons invaded forge worlds across the Imperium... but what ever even happened to that storyline..?
A Primarch returned... and there was no schism within the Ecclesiarchy, the High Lords were broadly ok with it, and nobody asked any awkward questions about the last ten millennia.
In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war, and whatever happens you will not be missed... but nobody really important has actually died in the last 300 years or so, so it doesn't matter.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:


In "the devastation of ball", Guilliman showed up with his primaris mariens shortly after the rift was formed. We are talking days. No sure how that fits with the rest of the timeline.

Im pretty sure that for the Blood Angels, it was shortly after the Rift Opened, for Guilliman it was considerably longer.

Danted discussed the fighting on Cadia. So it seems a bit weird.

.... the setting is lighter?

I mean, yes the forces of "good" (insofar as the imperium is good) and order are more powerful, but so are the forces of evil and destruction. The galaxy has been split in half by chaos, orks are rampant everywhere still, tyranids continue their invasion, and so on.

While things are objectively worse for the Imperium when you step back at look at the state of the galaxy, it’s been presented in a way that makes it feel more hopeful and optimistic than before. It just feels “wrong”.

I just wish they'd tone back on the superlatives and hyperbole in the writing.

If everything is "the greatest", the "most powerful", the "most advanced", the "biggest threat" etc, then nothing feels particularly amazing anymore. I feel bored reading stuff like this. Something doesn't have to be the absolute epitome of the subject/idea in question in order to be interesting, or to make sales for that matter.

I like the story progression. It's also a fantastic way to introduce new factions and units without just saying "the power was inside you all along".

However, to be fair I hate when things are stale and the setting was getting a bit stale over the years.

The lore was stale in 2000. Basically, eternal depression went out of style with grunge music.

Another poorly veiled primaris/Guilliman hate thread?

Let them hate. It's not any worse than the Warp or ripping off Starship Troopers or ripping off Tolkien.

This thread in a nutshell.

I prefer the focus on 40k being a setting rather than it being a story. I don't care for most of the characters and instead I liked the sandbox feel of the the universe where you could have major battles between any army and it not really stepping on the toes of anybody else's narrative. The whole "its stale" thing never really bothered me because its a setting where you can make up any number of conflicts, worlds, chapters, factions, etc at basically any time (it didn't have to be M41.999 every time GW). Didn't need a story to progress when the appeal was making your own story.

I do hate some of the new story elements like Cawl being walking tech heresy that nobody raises alarm bells about and the whole primaris garbage (its a thinly veiled ploy to nudge/push/force you to buy new Space Marines). Also I am generally less on board with heroes being this unstoppable things in a universe where a lowly guardsman can be given a melta gun that can turn some of the most heavily armored tanks into a pile of molten slag.

My faction doesn't seem to be doing much in the lore, so right now I don't really care about the lore. It does seem to be a big rehash to me, vigilus is just another cadia. The bad guys always win some phyric victory and have some, but stupid Y was our plan all along. Maybe GW just needs time and get more writers to starts having good stories.

I also don't like how Gulliman drops at the end of a ton of stories and "saves" the last 3 normal marines with a legion of primaris easy mode, making the whole sacrifice of marines seem only to be there to kill them off.

 Vankraken wrote:
I prefer the focus on 40k being a setting rather than it being a story. I don't care for most of the characters and instead I liked the sandbox feel of the the universe where you could have major battles between any army and it not really stepping on the toes of anybody else's narrative. The whole "its stale" thing never really bothered me because its a setting where you can make up any number of conflicts, worlds, chapters, factions, etc at basically any time (it didn't have to be M41.999 every time GW). Didn't need a story to progress when the appeal was making your own story.

I do hate some of the new story elements like Cawl being walking tech heresy that nobody raises alarm bells about and the whole primaris garbage (its a thinly veiled ploy to nudge/push/force you to buy new Space Marines). Also I am generally less on board with heroes being this unstoppable things in a universe where a lowly guardsman can be given a melta gun that can turn some of the most heavily armored tanks into a pile of molten slag.

Tech heresy would fall by the wayside to necessity. I don't think that acknowledging a little reality in the setting is bad.

Wasn't it already established though that the rest of the tech priests don't like Cawl, and are only playing along because he has the sponsorship of a Primarch? I mean, if one of the Emperor's sons tell you to jump, you better jump.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Changing the setting into a progressing story in my opinion was the worst move for the lore.

I think leaving the setting on the precipice of all hell breaking loose was much better than hell breaking loose.

Obviously I'm not a fan, but that's partly due to the poor writing.

Conclusion is something that every person desires and no single narrative can ever really get perfect. The endings of heavily theorized and fandom'd settings get hit the worst with this, because you've got this hivemind collaborating on ideas that satisfy everything they want and you can consume ALL OF THEM AT ONCE, but then you've got a limited number of monkeys sitting at just one typewriter trying to pull it together in a satisfying way, and they'll never, EVER please everyone.

Most people in fact will end up pissed, no matter what you do. And because we're in a decade where "objectivity" is the best thing to cloak your emotional reaction to ensure it remains valid and doesn't get dismissed, again, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, your conclusion will be picked apart by those seeking to prove it is "objectively bad". Things will be described as "lazy" and "rushed" and "came out of nowhere" despite maybe you having had a history and tendency to do that all along. Take for example belligerent carl's magical 10,000 year old vault of biglymarines and their super shmancy weapons. Nobody complained when the Dark Angels got their huge release of fancy shmancy never before seen tech that's always been around pinky swear since forever, or whenever there's a new (but always has been here) space marine vehicle, but because it's 2019 this is how we in nerd communities get our knickers in a twist.

Don't get me wrong, I agree - settings like this, it's best to just keep expanding them indefinitely until interest peters out. Then for the diehard fans who remain, you can put together a little conclusion just for the people who remain before you turn the lights out, just as a courtesy. Honestly, I think if The End Times was GW just putting fantasy to bed, they were going to stop making fantasy minis entirely and they wanted to give the remaining fans a show, it would have been better received.

I think they've added just enough hope for the setting that it becomes interesting again.

The stages of interest of 40k kinda went, 'wow, what is this? It's so cool! PEW PEW!' into 'Wow, a lot these guys are a-holes actually' through 'so wait, there's NO new technology or any kind or attempt at progress ever? How do they keep making new stuff for new models then?' to finally land in 'They're Nazis, why do I give a gak what happens to Nazis? The Galaxy would probably be better off if Tyranids won tbh.'




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
I prefer the focus on 40k being a setting rather than it being a story. I don't care for most of the characters and instead I liked the sandbox feel of the the universe where you could have major battles between any army and it not really stepping on the toes of anybody else's narrative. The whole "its stale" thing never really bothered me because its a setting where you can make up any number of conflicts, worlds, chapters, factions, etc at basically any time (it didn't have to be M41.999 every time GW). Didn't need a story to progress when the appeal was making your own story.

I do hate some of the new story elements like Cawl being walking tech heresy that nobody raises alarm bells about and the whole primaris garbage (its a thinly veiled ploy to nudge/push/force you to buy new Space Marines). Also I am generally less on board with heroes being this unstoppable things in a universe where a lowly guardsman can be given a melta gun that can turn some of the most heavily armored tanks into a pile of molten slag.

Tech heresy would fall by the wayside to necessity. I don't think that acknowledging a little reality in the setting is bad.

Yeah, Religion(Theology, w/e) is always the 'most important thing ever!' until it gets in the way of profit or survival.

Banville wrote:
They made a giant mistake skipping the entire Indomitus Crusade.

Which Vigilus is part of. It's a historical campaign, which I imagine several others of this period of time will follow.

Anyone who thinks Guilliman's return has led to a lighter tone hasnt paid attention to the new fluff.

Anyone who thinks the setting has progressed in a meaningful way hasn't paid attention to the new fluff.
There have been changes, but the plight of the Imperium is exactly the same as before. At best we've gotten a lateral shift.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Anyone who thinks Guilliman's return has led to a lighter tone hasnt paid attention to the new fluff.

Anyone who thinks the setting has progressed in a meaningful way hasn't paid attention to the new fluff.
There have been changes, but the plight of the Imperium is exactly the same as before. At best we've gotten a lateral shift.

Agree with this.

They’ve just given themselves leeway to make New Toys and books, but the situation is as bleak as ever. Potentially worse, if internal strife tears the Imperium apart politically (distrust of Cawl, rejection of Guilliman, etc. as possible triggers).

Nothing would make me happier than for Guilliman to die in the next campaign book.

I think that they handled the move forward in almost the worst way possible (the worst way, of course, was blowing up the whole setting and then reintroducing parts of it in your entirely new setting--thanks for that, GW).

The Cicatrix Maledictum was too big and too devastating. The opening of the Eye of Terror was a cataclysmic event that shattered one empire and birthed another--but now here's something way huger and way more powerful and way more devastating. It minimizes a hugely important part of the background, at the same time that it doesn't reflect the massive changes that it should entail.

One of the most significant restrictions on the free movement of Chaos forces is completely removed. The bitter stalemate that has persisted for 10,000 years continues to be a bitter stalemate. If Cadia and the Cadian Gate were really important to keep Chaos Marines in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years, why isn't the situation way worse now?

We've had incremental, halting progress in the Space Marine armor marks for 10,000 years. Mark 8 is still only barely being produced. The production of Space Marine equipment is hugely expensive and hugely difficult. Oh, hey. This guy has way better armor that he developed and it turns out we can crank out enough equipment to equip tons of new chapters all at one. It undermines the desperate attrition and slow degradation that the Imperium has fought for thousands of years.

The Emperor produced the Primarchs, the Custodians, the Thunder Warriors, and the Space Marines. No one has been able to significantly improve upon this progress for ten thousand years. They haven't even been able to halt increasing flaws in the process. But this guy over here, he has new, better Space Marines, and he's been producing them for thousands of years, and training them, and storing them up, and now we can release them and make new ones too.

Either the new progress is unbelievable, or the old storylines are unbelievable.

I was ALL FOR advancing the storyline, but I thought it would have been really easy and interesting to have some major, game-changing events, without these ridiculous moments. Of the top of my head:

Abaddon conquers Cadia and breaks the Cadian gate, but not before the Necrons reveal what pylons do, and reveal the presence of others. So we move forward, but Chaos isn't unchecked.

A new rift to Chaos opens. Not one crossing the entire galaxy from end to end, but one over there where FFG led you to believe something bad was gonna happen. A new Eye of Terror is no good. Even if we hadn't lost Cadia, now the Chaos dudes can come out another place. Now we have to fortify something else!

Some technological development (finding an STC, some magos in stasis, whatever) not only speeds up the production of Mark 8 armor, but starts the production of Mark 9. You can start putting the same damn marines in the new armor. You don't have to have them cross the Primaris Rubicon or whatever. They get new suits. The suits are good. We've changed the scale at least twice since Rogue Trader anyhow.

A primarch comes back. Roboute was a good choice since he was right there in stasis. Sure, the Eldar help, or the Necrons, or whoever. Great. He starts bossing around people like a Primarch and stuff gets done. He gets new tanks and stuff. He even updates the Codex.

You could have had resurgent Chaos, New Marine armor, new vehicles, changes in the tactical situation and the political balance, all without the ridiculousness of a massive warp rift across the entire freaking galaxy and thousands of brand new, taller marines, who are both experienced and noobs at the same time.

I would have been more angry about it, but I'm embracing my inner Ork and shrugging about the whole thing. Just some more zoggin' beakies.

I started having problems with lore advances/changes as far back as when matt ward turned necrons into space tomb kings. In short i'm not happy with a significant amount of the new lore, and the overall feel of 40k is not the same to me anymore.

Ive turned around on my original distaste for Guillimans return. Having listened to Dark Imperium, and now starting Plague Waes, I appreciate Guillimans character alot more. He's overburdened, nostalgic, confused, frustrated, distrustful, and sentimental.

Hes not really the Hope of the Imperium that they think he is, but hes forced into to playing and manipulating that role.

I'm fine with story progression, as it's happened before. The difference this time is the reach of the changes, which IMO are three-fold.
1: Citrix Maledictum changes the star map comsiderably. The old Eye of Terror whas such an iconic piece of imagery. The Eye sems pretty insigbificant now.

2: Returning Primarch. I would have rather they stayed mythical.

3: Primaris Marines, especially how they are introduced in the setting. A more-marine-marine. . . Bleh.

I preferred the relative galactical stagnation as a giant blank canvas.

Da Butcha wrote:

Spoiler:

I think that they handled the move forward in almost the worst way possible (the worst way, of course, was blowing up the whole setting and then reintroducing parts of it in your entirely new setting--thanks for that, GW).

The Cicatrix Maledictum was too big and too devastating. The opening of the Eye of Terror was a cataclysmic event that shattered one empire and birthed another--but now here's something way huger and way more powerful and way more devastating. It minimizes a hugely important part of the background, at the same time that it doesn't reflect the massive changes that it should entail.

One of the most significant restrictions on the free movement of Chaos forces is completely removed. The bitter stalemate that has persisted for 10,000 years continues to be a bitter stalemate. If Cadia and the Cadian Gate were really important to keep Chaos Marines in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years, why isn't the situation way worse now?

We've had incremental, halting progress in the Space Marine armor marks for 10,000 years. Mark 8 is still only barely being produced. The production of Space Marine equipment is hugely expensive and hugely difficult. Oh, hey. This guy has way better armor that he developed and it turns out we can crank out enough equipment to equip tons of new chapters all at one. It undermines the desperate attrition and slow degradation that the Imperium has fought for thousands of years.

The Emperor produced the Primarchs, the Custodians, the Thunder Warriors, and the Space Marines. No one has been able to significantly improve upon this progress for ten thousand years. They haven't even been able to halt increasing flaws in the process. But this guy over here, he has new, better Space Marines, and he's been producing them for thousands of years, and training them, and storing them up, and now we can release them and make new ones too.

Either the new progress is unbelievable, or the old storylines are unbelievable.

I was ALL FOR advancing the storyline, but I thought it would have been really easy and interesting to have some major, game-changing events, without these ridiculous moments. Of the top of my head:

Abaddon conquers Cadia and breaks the Cadian gate, but not before the Necrons reveal what pylons do, and reveal the presence of others. So we move forward, but Chaos isn't unchecked.

A new rift to Chaos opens. Not one crossing the entire galaxy from end to end, but one over there where FFG led you to believe something bad was gonna happen. A new Eye of Terror is no good. Even if we hadn't lost Cadia, now the Chaos dudes can come out another place. Now we have to fortify something else!

Some technological development (finding an STC, some magos in stasis, whatever) not only speeds up the production of Mark 8 armor, but starts the production of Mark 9. You can start putting the same damn marines in the new armor. You don't have to have them cross the Primaris Rubicon or whatever. They get new suits. The suits are good. We've changed the scale at least twice since Rogue Trader anyhow.

A primarch comes back. Roboute was a good choice since he was right there in stasis. Sure, the Eldar help, or the Necrons, or whoever. Great. He starts bossing around people like a Primarch and stuff gets done. He gets new tanks and stuff. He even updates the Codex.

You could have had resurgent Chaos, New Marine armor, new vehicles, changes in the tactical situation and the political balance, all without the ridiculousness of a massive warp rift across the entire freaking galaxy and thousands of brand new, taller marines, who are both experienced and noobs at the same time.

I would have been more angry about it, but I'm embracing my inner Ork and shrugging about the whole thing. Just some more zoggin' beakies.

All excellent points there. I feel they either didn't take in the criticisms given to them about WHFB's End Times (which might have been hard to do as the signal to noise ratio there was significant...) or all of this was at the printers and ready to go long in advance. It felt rushed, just like the End Times. These are all incredibly significant events. Let people digest them. Let them sit and the implications that come with them. It's like they wanted to be Game of Thrones, but took the worst aspects of it. You had three books come out at breakneck speed. All of which contained things that had major implications for the 40k universe, yet were sort of glossed over as soon as the next book came out.

Cadia blows up. Great. Some story progression! (which I personally didn't like, as 40k is(was) a setting, not a story. But still....). Not let that sink in. don't just go and release the next book with ZOMG New Eldar god!!! the following month and Holy gak! Resurrected Primarch!!! right after. The implications of Cadia being destroyed were huge and far-reaching, yet the background is only just catching up to this. This was the same problem the final season of GoT suffered from It's like GW beat them to the punch with how to fumble this.

They could have stretched this out for years, with only now us getting to book 3 with Girlyman's return. I cannot stress how much of a significant event this should have been yet nothing has changed. The only thing it has served to do is make the 40k galaxy feel smaller as literally every single event revolves around him and roughly a dozen other characters. No GW. You have a whole galaxy to play in with hundreds of thousands of worlds and untold trillions of peoples yet let's just focus on Girlyman, even though his resurrection still ensures the status quo for some reason.

The focus is on Guilliman as overall commander, though. All his active campaigning in the Imperium at large occurred off-camera, even in Guy Haley's novels. he's remained in Ultramar, and Vigilus is under the eye of Marneus Calgar, for example.

The focus is always on what the big characters are doing. The untold stories of the other million worlds in the Imperium are for us to tell.

 Grimtuff wrote:
40k is(was) a setting, not a story.

Do all the narrative developments and events during M40.999 that were written after the timeline was reset to (and paused) just before Eye of Terror count as setting or story?

They could have stretched this out for years, with only now us getting to book 3 with Girlyman's return. I cannot stress how much of a significant event this should have been yet nothing has changed. The only thing it has served to do is make the 40k galaxy feel smaller as literally every single event revolves around him and roughly a dozen other characters. No GW. You have a whole galaxy to play in with hundreds of thousands of worlds and untold trillions of peoples yet let's just focus on Girlyman, even though his resurrection still ensures the status quo for some reason.

Well the thing about Gulliman is that unlike the milions of characters in the w40k universe, he does have a model that GW wants to sell. All art and the few stories I read look a bit like gloried adds. If something doesn't have a model it will not exist. If something has new models, like primaris, they are going to be poping up in every 4th story or so. Where are the quirky primaris Lts that use non standard weapons, or an intercessors that decied he will very much keep their combat knifes, or the jump dudes that decided that shoting is over rated and stocked up on some huge thunder hammers? Those would be cool to read about or see in art, something new and not something you can see on the cover of a codex or box of minis. Where is the wow aspect, if the hero of a 300page book looks, just like your own dudes?

My opinion is not going to be popular but I wish that chaos had gotten their butts kicked during vigilus and the xenos would become the true threat. Honestly tired of chaos, they are boring IMO when they are the big bad here and in sigmar.