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So the first primarch has returned, and more are probably coming. The aeldari have received a possible "get-out-of-jail-free" card in the form of Ynnead, and the tyranid threat has been diminished by the the great rift.

Put short, there is hope.

But what do you think of this change in the setting? Good, bad?




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Changing the setting into a progressing story in my opinion was the worst move for the lore.

I think leaving the setting on the precipice of all hell breaking loose was much better than hell breaking loose.

Obviously I'm not a fan, but that's partly due to the poor writing.

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Tyranid Horde wrote:Changing the setting into a progressing story in my opinion was the worst move for the lore.

I think leaving the setting on the precipice of all hell breaking loose was much better than hell breaking loose.

Obviously I'm not a fan, but that's partly due to the poor writing.


I'm quite happy that the narrative is moving again, even if I don't agree with all the writing decisions, especially since resetting the story back to before the Eye of Terror campaign didn't stop the 40k "story" progressing anyway -- just more and more events were being crammed into M40.999 instead. That they only reset the clock to one-minute-to-midnight after Medusa V made the setting feel particularly stagnant as they rowed back on not one but two global campaigns.




 
   
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I by far preferred the eye to eye with disaster feel of the older lore. When there's hope, the scope is changed in my opinion: you don't see 40K as the events taking place in a galaxy with a heavy atmosphere, on the verge of annihilation, but you want to see those new characters and possilities for survival unfold. The new setting kind of wants a sequel because otherwise it feels totally plain and unfinished.

I don't like it whatsoever as I loved the masterly crafted dead end sandbox that 40k used to be. Plus the great rift has made it difficult for my co-players to fancy our armies fighting at several places of the galaxy.

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I also think progressing the story was a bad idea. Something that drew me to the game in the first place was that everything was on the brink of disaster and there was no hope of it getting better.

You just fought to slow down the inevitable collapse of everything, and, to me, you actually do fight to slow it down by playing the game. You and your friends advance the story through your own gameplay and your own narrative.

It all comes back to the fact that I think it was a bad idea to bring hope into the narrative. It just defeats the whole purpose of the setting in my opinion.
   
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I don't think the lore is any lighter. Guilliman is stuck in an endless game of whack-a-mole, Chaos is stronger than ever and most of the xenos races are still doing what they've veen doing.

I quite like the idea that the tyranids as the galaxies white blood cells who've turned up to eat away at the cancer though. They've been my main faction since 2nd and the change is refreshing. I like my chaotic good tyranids.

   
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Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment


Also this hope is appearing at the same time as Cadia has fallen and the Imperium is almost set to be cut in half and is basically hinged on a whisker of a single world that has already been sieged by the very forces of the greatest legion of chaos?


And alongside the Primarchs are the Fallen Primarchs returning, plus the Tyranids are building a huge world-weapon-thing that no one knows what it will do.


Forgive me but this hope you speak of sounds rather fleeting

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on the forum. Obviously

If it was done properly, they could have used the "hope" to intensify the despair of the situation. Can't have true despair and dread without hope, after all.
The problem though is they haven't gotten there yet.
Like, yeah sure, the Imperium is split in two and Cadia is in ruins, but things are starting to look up, aren't they? The primarchs are coming back, and the Imperium is getting better troops and equipment. That still sounds pretty hopeful. Now, if they went and said "ok, the Imperium gets new stuff, but so does everyone else, so it really doesn't matter. Oh, and Guilleman lost an arm trying to upper cut a Heirophant. Like an idiot" then yeah, that would be fleeting. I think they did it out of order, really.
Didn't they introduce Cawl's Primaris marines and Guilleman during Cadia? They should have done it a while before hand, and start building up how great they were, and then when Cadia finally happens they get dunked on. That's more like proper despair. Doing it at the same time just doesn't have the same degree of impact.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/06 11:58:46


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Didn't they introduce Cawl's Primaris marines and Guilleman during Cadia?


No, both happened after. Guilliman's resurrection happened after both the Fall of Cadia and Ynnead's awakening with the Primaris showing up in the 100+ years span after the Cicatrix split the Imperium and the Dark Imperium to "present" day. Both were desperate acts in response to Abbadon's actions. It's all false hope to stem the tide. The Imperium isn't exactly making any headway in actually regaining their lost territory in those 100+ years.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/06 12:05:45


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 Overread wrote:


the Tyranids are building a huge world-weapon-thing that no one knows what it will do.


Forgive me but this hope you speak of sounds rather fleeting


The silent king is intent on killing the tyranids to "save" the galaxy. The primaris marines are here with new tech, while Ghazghkull has assembled a fleet of a million ships.. its all on a knifes edge. But there is hope.

Im not sure I like the new lore, but the fact that the factions are not just auto-boned now, I really like.

Winning or losing a battle dident mean much before, since they were bound to lose in the end, no matter what.

 Platuan4th wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Didn't they introduce Cawl's Primaris marines and Guilleman during Cadia?


No, both happened after. Guilliman's resurrection happened after both the Fall of Cadia and Ynnead's awakening with the Primaris showing up in the 100+ years span after the Cicatrix split the Imperium and the Dark Imperium to "present" day. Both were desperate acts in response to Abbadon's actions. It's all false hope to stem the tide. The Imperium isn't exactly making any headway in actually regaining their lost territory in those 100+ years.


In "the devastation of ball", Guilliman showed up with his primaris mariens shortly after the rift was formed. We are talking days. No sure how that fits with the rest of the timeline.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/06 12:10:54


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 Platuan4th wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Didn't they introduce Cawl's Primaris marines and Guilleman during Cadia?


No, both happened after. Guilliman's resurrection happened after both the Fall of Cadia and Ynnead's awakening with the Primaris showing up in the 100+ years span after the Cicatrix split the Imperium and the Dark Imperium to "present" day. Both were desperate acts in response to Abbadon's actions.


Yeah, so it is the exact opposite of how they should have done it.

"Cadia falls! Now all hope truly is lost! But, wait! A primarch returns with even more powerful space marines! Hooray! We are saved!"

That is the kind of hope stuff that I think is bad. If they would have done it in the opposite order(like mentioned above) it could have worked out pretty well.

"A primarch has returned to save us with even more powerful space marines! He'll show that silly despoiler! But, wait! Cadia falls!? How can this be!? We have a primarch and new space marines. It is all pointless! Nothing we do can make a diferrence. We are doomed!"

That is a much better way of implementing new stuff and keeping the setting a hopeless warzone of despair.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 12:11:40


 
   
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 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

"A primarch has returned to save us with even more powerful space marines! He'll show that silly despoiler! But, wait! Cadia falls!? How can this be!? We have a primarch and new space marines. It is all pointless! Nothing we do can make a diferrence. We are doomed!"


I just dont understand why that would be more interesting?

It just means that everything is pointless. How is that great?


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 Platuan4th wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Didn't they introduce Cawl's Primaris marines and Guilleman during Cadia?


No, both happened after. Guilliman's resurrection happened after both the Fall of Cadia and Ynnead's awakening with the Primaris showing up in the 100+ years span after the Cicatrix split the Imperium and the Dark Imperium to "present" day. Both were desperate acts in response to Abbadon's actions. It's all false hope to stem the tide. The Imperium isn't exactly making any headway in actually regaining their lost territory in those 100+ years.


Oh wow, its even more poorly handled than I remembered. So yeah, my point still stands, they should have introduced Roboute and Friends before Cadia.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Andersp90 wrote:
 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

"A primarch has returned to save us with even more powerful space marines! He'll show that silly despoiler! But, wait! Cadia falls!? How can this be!? We have a primarch and new space marines. It is all pointless! Nothing we do can make a diferrence. We are doomed!"


I just dont understand why that would be more interesting?

It just means that everything is pointless. How is that great?



Welcome to 40k. There's only war, everyone's gonna die, hope is just a prelude to disappointment.
There's a reason why Nurgle, Chaos God of despair, is one of the Big Four.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 12:14:41


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Welcome to 40k. There's only war, everyone's gonna die, hope is just a prelude to disappointment.
There's a reason why Nurgle, Chaos God of despair, is one of the Big Four.


I have always loved the different factions. But the setting being grimdark for the sake of being grimdark makes for pretty gakky storytelling.

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 Andersp90 wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Welcome to 40k. There's only war, everyone's gonna die, hope is just a prelude to disappointment.
There's a reason why Nurgle, Chaos God of despair, is one of the Big Four.


I have always loved the different factions. But the setting being grimdark for the sake of being grimdark makes for pretty gakky storytelling.


Exactly.
Plus lets be honest even back in the day there was always hope. There was always a new weapon, a hero, a champion, a major battle etc... Sure the stakes might be higher now, but there's always been a glimmer of hope in the setting. Even down in the pits of Necromunda there are stories of loyalty, hope, love and more. Characters don't always lose in the setting, they sometimes win.

Grimdark is the theme and style but its not the overarching only pathway to their stories, if it were it would be phenomenally depressing a setting. Also don't forget all the factions advance their tech - tau have huge weapons the like of which they never had before; Necrons have awakened knight sized titans for the battlefield; etc.. sure marines have Primaris now, but that's only just keeping them in line iwth new evolutions of Tyranids and vast uncoutable swarms of orks that refuse to be purged from worlds.

It's still grim dark its just not totally one dimensional grim dark.

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Yeah, I really do not get the whole "oh no, they made my grimdark too noblebright" viewpoint. That faint scent of hope just makes the crushing stench of despair all the sweeter as it strangles the galaxy.
   
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I do not mind hope, and story progress is good. I just think they are taking it in wonky ways.

A lot of it just seems to be forgetting how big a galaxy should be, and how that size can set up for some really tense story’s.
The ultramarines cannot be everywhere, even space marine chapters cannot be.
The imperium can be stretched thin and still powerful as they plan and manipulate the galaxy in there favour. Or try to.

Tyranids could be the threat from beyond the stars held off in parts of the galaxy, and chaos the more pressing threat now, and they both only meet rarely in battles unknown to the imperium.

The primarchs in tone I think are just to powerful for the setting, with there power toned down they could still be a rally point for the imperium. It just starts to sound like a joke, 40k the parody that’s becoming a bit of a parody of itself.

It’s the same reason people thought backflipping terminators are silly, but I think that is where a lot of it kinda ends up without someone raining the writing in a little across the board.

I think it is why ward allways irk me in his writing, it allways felt he was just ramping it up to 11 and it coming off more as the 12 year old edgie story rather than so,e of the depth the 40k universe at least try to have.
It’s not even his fault if that is what the environment he is writing in wants.
   
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I personally don't mind the setting being "lighter". It's hardly sunshine and rainbows first of all, but every action being pointless is (in my opinion) as pointless as every action being a virtually guarenteed win like in many stories/comics/etc. Plus according to the books the Imperium in its past has seen times of growth along with times of hardship, so the ebb and flow of hope and despair is far better in my opinion as we see those moments play out before us.

Having said that, I do take umbrage in a few parts of how things played out, and I personally like the old Mk VII/"old marine" aesthetic more than the Primaris aesthetic, but it doesn't bother me so much that I still enjoy the setting! After all there's always something you won't like, and I understand why some people don't like the changes but for me personally they are overall a positive.
   
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 ikeulhu wrote:
Yeah, I really do not get the whole "oh no, they made my grimdark too noblebright" viewpoint. That faint scent of hope just makes the crushing stench of despair all the sweeter as it strangles the galaxy.


Yeah, but GW isn't delivering on the despair. Guilleman really needs to lose a limb at some point, or some Primaris need to turn to chaos.
You'd think Fabius Bile would have made something by now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 12:50:21


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 Andersp90 wrote:
 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

"A primarch has returned to save us with even more powerful space marines! He'll show that silly despoiler! But, wait! Cadia falls!? How can this be!? We have a primarch and new space marines. It is all pointless! Nothing we do can make a diferrence. We are doomed!"


I just dont understand why that would be more interesting?

It just means that everything is pointless. How is that great?



To me the story of 40K is the story of the end times for humanity. It is a culmination of all the glory and possibilities that the past set before us and how humanity totally blew it.

All of the political in-fighting, dogma, and hubris that success brings has brought us to the current state of 40K. Nothing ever really gets done because of all of the silly bureaucracy, and everyone fears advancement so nothing ever improves. Workers rights don't improve, technology doesn't improve, the state of the government never improves.

Sure there are victories here and there. The imperium may retake a world held by orks and humans can begin living there in relative peace again, but for each of those victories two more imperial worlds fall. Tyranids devour a planet, chaos overwhelms a population, or T'au expand their empire into imperial worlds.

The only reason the imperium hasn't totally collapsed already is because it is so vast it will take another ten-thousand years to destroy everything it has built.

The interesting thing about it is that it shows what can happen when you are full of yourself and you refuse to compromise on anything. How we got to this point is where the story is told. The Horus Heresy marks the beginning of the downfall. The stories I want to hear are the ones like that that set the stage for the 41st millennium. Warhammer 40K(again, to me) is the end of the story. I don't want a set up for something more because this is already the end.

The table top game we play falls into this setting: the end times. At this point there is only war. War that just delays the inevitable collapse of everything. A victory here may buy humanity an extra hundred years. A big victory there may buy them an extra millennium, but the fact of the matter remains that humanity will collapse. It is only a matter of time.
   
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 Overread wrote:


Plus lets be honest even back in the day there was always hope.


I disagree. Both Dante and Anval Thawn have talked about how the imperium was crumbling. And the former eldar dexes would always underlined that "these guys are fethed" etc etc.


Grimdark is the theme and style but its not the overarching only pathway to their stories, if it were it would be phenomenally depressing a setting.


But that is exactly what most of the setting is? People are living under horrible conditions, and human life has zero value.

Take the novel warlord: fury of the dod machine as an example.

Spoiler:
We follow a princeps, a priest and a general. They all survived, but the priest, the general and the rest of the world are strealized for having witnessed chaos, and the entire planet is turned into an internment camp.


Why should I give a rats ass about a story like that? There was NO payoff.

And this is the plotline in so many of the storys set in the universe. The hero saves the day, and the civilians are plunged right back into the gutter. Pointless.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/06/06 12:58:50


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 Andersp90 wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Welcome to 40k. There's only war, everyone's gonna die, hope is just a prelude to disappointment.
There's a reason why Nurgle, Chaos God of despair, is one of the Big Four.


I have always loved the different factions. But the setting being grimdark for the sake of being grimdark makes for pretty gakky storytelling.


Only if you handle it poorly.
A Canticle for Leibowitz is pretty bleak, and I would hardly call that book gakky. Ditto for 1984 or Brave New World.
If you just go "lol, everyone dies due to rocks" then yeah, its gak.
40k is basically a dystopian black comedy, that parodies the dark parts of human history. Trying to make it "noblebright" without any trade-off undermines that element of the setting.

To me, its like a joke - good thing happens, get lauded as the best thing since the Emperor, then something happens that sets it back to square 1. That's the punch line. GW still hasn't gotten to the punch-line yet after like, 2 years.
Its basically no different than the villain or hero going "I am the best thing ever!" and then getting dunked on. Like that scientist guy from Golden Eye. Its a joke.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 13:02:10


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 ikeulhu wrote:
Yeah, I really do not get the whole "oh no, they made my grimdark too noblebright" viewpoint. That faint scent of hope just makes the crushing stench of despair all the sweeter as it strangles the galaxy.

Yeah, but GW isn't delivering on the despair. Guilleman really needs to lose a limb at some point, or some Primaris need to turn to chaos.
You'd think Fabius Bile would have made something by now.

That is fair, although I personally think GW is taking the slow build approach to it. The Dark Imperium and Plague War books are slowly hinting towards some interesting friction between Guilliman and the Ecclesiarchy, and the steady conversion of Iax into Pestiliax is definitely not a ray of sunshine in the setting. I also would be surprised if we eventually do not see something cooked up by Fabius in response to the Primaris. Now I could be wrong and GW may just leave us waiting for the axe to drop, but to me there is currently still enough despair going around to fairly represent the setting.
   
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 ikeulhu wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 ikeulhu wrote:
Yeah, I really do not get the whole "oh no, they made my grimdark too noblebright" viewpoint. That faint scent of hope just makes the crushing stench of despair all the sweeter as it strangles the galaxy.

Yeah, but GW isn't delivering on the despair. Guilleman really needs to lose a limb at some point, or some Primaris need to turn to chaos.
You'd think Fabius Bile would have made something by now.

That is fair, although I personally think GW is taking the slow build approach to it. The Dark Imperium and Plague War books are slowly hinting towards some interesting friction between Guilliman and the Ecclesiarchy, and the steady conversion of Iax into Pestiliax is definitely not a ray of sunshine in the setting. I also would be surprised if we eventually do not see something cooked up by Fabius in response to the Primaris. Now I could be wrong and GW may just leave us waiting for the axe to drop, but to me there is currently still enough despair going around to fairly represent the setting.


Yeah, maybe. That would go with what I just talked about, after all.
Maybe the plan is to start with something disastrous (Cadia), slowly introduce something good as contrast (Primarchs), and then introduce something disastrous again (Idk, looted Emperor or something.)
They are taking their time though. Then again, GW has always worked slow.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 13:16:37


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 ikeulhu wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 ikeulhu wrote:
Yeah, I really do not get the whole "oh no, they made my grimdark too noblebright" viewpoint. That faint scent of hope just makes the crushing stench of despair all the sweeter as it strangles the galaxy.

Yeah, but GW isn't delivering on the despair. Guilleman really needs to lose a limb at some point, or some Primaris need to turn to chaos.
You'd think Fabius Bile would have made something by now.

That is fair, although I personally think GW is taking the slow build approach to it. The Dark Imperium and Plague War books are slowly hinting towards some interesting friction between Guilliman and the Ecclesiarchy, and the steady conversion of Iax into Pestiliax is definitely not a ray of sunshine in the setting. I also would be surprised if we eventually do not see something cooked up by Fabius in response to the Primaris. Now I could be wrong and GW may just leave us waiting for the axe to drop, but to me there is currently still enough despair going around to fairly represent the setting.


Yeah, maybe. That would go with what I just talked about, after all.
Maybe the plan is to start with something disastrous (Cadia), slowly introduce something good as contrast (Primarchs), and then introduce something disastrous again (Idk, looted Emperor or something.)
They are taking their time though. Then again, GW has always worked slow.


No, the plan is stagnation again. They proved that with Vigilus. The utter nonsense they pulled with Marneus Calgar not getting offed just proves that GW is narritivly the same as it ever was. I said when the whole Vigilus thing started getting hyped up it would lead to nothing of consequence and low and behold everything is as it was except Calgar got new armor. Like he could have lost an arm or one of his power fists got permanently destroyed to mark a major change but all that happened was that his old design got phased out for Primaris Calgar.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/12 13:37:14


   
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The bigger issue is that GW's writing and execution of background ideas over the last decade or so has been...well, lacking, as opposed to the 40k universe really being brighter.

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 Sim-Life wrote:
No, the plan is stagnation again. They proved that with Vigilus. The utter nonsense they pulled with Marneus Calgar not getting offed just proves that GW is narritivly the same as it ever was. I said when the whole Vigilus thing started getting hyped up it would lead to nothing of consequence and low and behold everything is as it was except Calgar got new armor. Like he could have lost an arm or one of his power fists got permanently destroyed to mark a major change but all that happened was that his old design got phased out for Primaris Calgar.


Calgar already lost all four of his limbs and an eye, busting up his internal organs is the furthest they could really go without killing him. It might be cool if he ends up in a dreadnought as a result, which they could do without benching the new primaris mini by following a similar approach to the old WHFB Mannfred von Carstein, where he had two profiles to represent him at different points in time.

They hyped up Vigilus as being too critical for it end up as anything other than an Armageddon/Cadia 2.0. It'd be great if they'd start setting these campaigns in important but not so "omg critically vital!" systems and planets that anything other than a stalemate/Imperial victory would rock the setting too hard.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/12 13:37:37


 
   
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I absolute hate where GW has taken the story.

Without going into a long winded post; always moving sideways and NOT forward was the correct answer.

What I believe should be taken away from all of this... GW needs to exercise restraint when listening to the GW fan base. Listening to your customers is good. Giving them everything they ask for is bad.
   
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They made a giant mistake skipping the entire Indomitus Crusade.
   
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when you consider the entire 40k universe could just be the fever dreams of some psyker from another dimension.... well..... there is only grim dark

   
 
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