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I'm talking about:
Crimson Hunters, Warp Spiders, or Shining Spear where are our Lords?

Did anyone know anything? I couldn't find any informations about it :C

From my comments on Gav Thorpe's blog:

"Drastanta, Tempest of Starlight, Phoenix Lord of the Shining Spears is given in the Iyanden supplement (p.51) as going to find his mentor Asurmen already fallen before N’kari, Keeper of Secrets, during the destruction of Asur. Since the destruction of Asur is what first scattered the Asurya to the galaxy and the seeding of the Warrior Path among the Craftworlds, Drastanta by being mentored by Asurmen on Asur therefore must also have been one of the Asurya. While not all Phoenix Lords need be Asurya, all Asurya seem to have been Phoenix Lords."

"Aside from the Iyanden supplement reference, Drastanta’s existence is also reinforced by reference in the last edition Codex Eldar Craftworlds on p. 76. There it says “Shining Spears wear blue and white, the colours of their lost Phoenix Lord Drastanta, Tempest of Starlight. The Shrine of the Swift Kill are known for their daring charges, and they wear dark azure helms harkening to the tale of Drastanta’s prized helm, the Crown of the Seventh Sky. Thus from these two sources we seem to know Drastanta’s wargear: the Celestial Lance, and the Crown of the Seventh Sky.

Interestingly on p.77 of that same Codex Eldar Craftworlds, one of the shrine logos for the Crimson Hunters is called Scions of Kuron. To me, this seems to imply Kuron is the founder of the Crimson Hunters. "


Since that time, Gav's Wild Rider novel has a very quick passing reference to Drastanta on page 53. Given that Gav was not very keen about Drastanta from the original blog, I'd like to think maybe as a result of my comments he warmed to the idea a little more and made that reference.

Interestingly on p.77 of that same Codex Eldar Craftworlds, one of the shrine logos for the Crimson Hunters is called Scions of Kuron. To me, this seems to imply Kuron is the founder of the Crimson Hunters. "

Cool a name surely connected by the god of the hunt Kurnous! Don't you agree?

Thanks for the cool bits about the shining spears!

What about the spiders though?

A dry answer could be he got lost in the warp

Ahahah indeed you can say that D

There is an entity that could be a Warp Spider Phoenix Lord, but afaik there's no Crimson Hunter Phoenix Lord in fluff.

Do all Aspects have to have Phoenix Lords? Could they instead be a group of ...Path-minded...Aeldari that felt the touch of Khaine and with no available Aspect shrine nearby, started their own?

I mean, I doubt this would happen for an aspect as wide-spread as Warp Spiders, but there are tons of lesser known Aspects, like the Slicing Orbs.
It's possible that a group of Aeldari came upon some of the teachings of Asurmen, but there was no Exarch available to teach them, so they did their own thing

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The fluff isn't even clear on if there's any metaphysical - or physical - difference between "Phoenix Lord" and "Suitably experienced Exarch".

There is some fluff implying that the Phoenix Lords may be "only" Asurmen's first students (plus Karrandras), but I couldn't quote it. If that were the case, any younger Aspects wouldn't have a true "Phoenix Lord".

There's also the implication that there are N aspects of Khaine - as in, a distinct number. And as such, there are N Aspects - and thus possibly only N possible Phoenix Lords. Where N is a small number. This seems silly to me, and at odds with mentions of there being far more Aspects than the named ones.

No idea.

@Bharring

Some fluff seems to imply that the first Exarch, the first teacher/master of a discipline, is a Phoenix Lord. This means it might be just another Exarch, just older then the others. It doesn't mean all "Phoenix Lords" are special. Not all of them are basically to Eldars what Primarchs are to Space Marines.

That's been how I understood it too. The fluff isn't 100% clear, though.

I understand the opposite that they were out primarcs not some common folk with a khaine temple dedicated

Asurya = trained by Asurmen

Phoenix Lord = found of an Aspect

Are all Asurya Phoenix Lords? Don't know, but maybe.

Are Phoenix Lords limited to the Asurya? Also unknown.

There are many Aspects as there have been mentions of the Slicing Orbs of Zandros, and in the Gav Thorpe novel Path of the Warrior there is a mention of the Aspect of the Crystal Dragons.

The ones we see in the Codex are just the largest most widespread and popular Aspects. That doesn't stop new ones from being mentioned or introduced, such as the Crimson Hunters who have the distinction of being the first canonical vehicular Aspect.

Keep in mind the parasitic reincarnation component that is apparently unique to phoenix lords. Thats as good of a marker for what is, and isnt, a phoenix lord as anything else.

 Elian wrote:
I understand the opposite that they were out primarcs not some common folk with a khaine temple dedicated

I certainly think this is how it is for the original 6 (Asurmen and his 5 students), then later Karandras (because Arhra fell to the "dark light of chaos" and later founded the Incubi).
But for other Aspects, it entirely seems like they could have just picked up on Asurmen's teachings and did their own thing. The "first Exarch" of these Aspects likely became that Aspect's PL by proxy.

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Sterling191 wrote:
Keep in mind the parasitic reincarnation component that is apparently unique to phoenix lords. Thats as good of a marker for what is, and isnt, a phoenix lord as anything else.

An Exarch 'reincarnates' too. Not all Exarchs are Phoenix Lords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phoenix Lord = found of an Aspect

Karrandas is a notable exception to this, but aside from him this seems to be the definition.

Bharring wrote:

An Exarch 'reincarnates' too. Not all Exarchs are Phoenix Lords.

Exarch souls dont dominate and take over the bodies of compatible warriors who don their armor. An echo of their spirit remains in the armor, which can be communed with by a subsequent Exarch. It's a massive difference.

The exarch's soul - which is already a collection of many souls - absorbs the new guy's soul. There is now just the Exarch's soul - which includes what was the new guy's soul.

Phoenix Lords are "different" in that it's made clear that the "new guy" is just a drop in the bucket - and has no notable impact on the conglomerate soul after the merge.

Whether the difference is because the new soul is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the souls that came before it, or because Phoenix Lords don't function the same way Exarchs do, isn't made clear.

Either way fits the fluff as given; if an Exarch were around for roughly ten thousand years and had hundreds of souls merged into one, any new soul would likely also make no real impact on the whole - and just be a drop in the bucket.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Sterling: do you have a source for the former Exarchs being distinct souls? I don't have my Codex with me, but I'm fairly confident that's not how it portrays it.

Back in the day, there was an implication that only the 'original' aspects had Phoenix Lords, as they were the founding exarchs of those aspects specifically. The Warp Spiders didn't have one, as they were a 'newer' aspect.

Not sure if that still fits the current fluff, though. Possibly not, if the Shining Spears have one.

Arhra and Karandras are an interesting case. It seems that in the beginning post-Fall the idea of what each Aspect should be was more fluid and not yet crystallized in the minds of Eldar. Arhra had his interpretation of the Scorpion and Karandras had his (one with more patience and stealth), and ultimately Karandras's interpretation replaced Arhra's and became the accepted one among the Craftworlds. So Karandras is in a way an Aspect founder too.

It's entirely possible that "Phoenix Lord" is more like "Founding Fathers" than a technical distinction.

Generally speaking, if you were to name a (notable) person, there'd be a consensus if they were a Founding Father. And I'm sure there are "formal definitions" somewhere. But what makes someone count as a Founding Father is less well defined. They're the people who founded our nation. Clearly George Washington was one, and Gorge Lucas was not. But was it every member of the first so-many US governments? Is every congressman before 1800 a Founding Father? I'm sure there are people for whom we'd disagree as to whether they are a Founding Father.

Phoenix Lords might be the same; the Eldar people generally know who is a Phoenix Lord. It's "obvious" to them. But it might not be formally defined.

I don't know guys.. i feel that PL are more op then an exarch for some reason.

As stated before in the Path of the warrior book there is an instance where Karandras straight up suck another scorpion exarch without merging mind. He just disappears.

So that's the reason that leads me to believe they are OP

The Phoenix Lords are described as having mystical abilities, that are not reflected in game rules. These more esoteric mystic abilities help the image of the Phoenix Lords as supernatural immortal martial artists.

For example, in one Night Lords book, Jain Zar demonstrated a technique of whirling her Blade of Destruction in a manner that allowed her to block a good portion of the bolter rounds fired her way. In the WD article on Maugan Ra showed he had the mystic ability to root himself immovably to the ground at will. Similarly, the Apocalypse formation Shadow Sect of Karandras showed Karandras with the ability to lead squads of Scorpions from one shadowed place to another shadowed place without passing through the intervening space.

Baharroth's feat is given in the original Apocalypse formation Tempest of Baharroth where he can fly high enough to drop his grenades in a mode that has them be aerial mines for aircraft, essentially allowing him to assault them with haywire grenades by dropping them in their projected flight path.

See? they are powerful not as a primarch but they are the most powerful living eldar ever.
Or am i wrong?

Bharring wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Sterling: do you have a source for the former Exarchs being distinct souls? I don't have my Codex with me, but I'm fairly confident that's not how it portrays it.

You are correct sir, I was mis-remembering.

 Elian wrote:
See? they are powerful not as a primarch but they are the most powerful living eldar ever.
Or am i wrong?

They are definitely way more powerful than a garden variety Exarch. It might be that they are just Exarchs who have been around SO long that they became that powerful, but it seems more likely that they unlocked certain mystic abilities (maybe the favor of Khaine himself) that allowed them to focus on a unique aspect of war and found their own shrines.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Elian wrote:
See? they are powerful not as a primarch but they are the most powerful living eldar ever.
Or am i wrong?

They are definitely way more powerful than a garden variety Exarch. It might be that they are just Exarchs who have been around SO long that they became that powerful, but it seems more likely that they unlocked certain mystic abilities (maybe the favor of Khaine himself) that allowed them to focus on a unique aspect of war and found their own shrines.

There is even an argument to be made that our phoenix lord are our old god in elf form (or what has been left of it)

I'd be surprised if there weren't some Eldar who believed that, actually.

Well...

I believe that

 Elian wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Elian wrote:
See? they are powerful not as a primarch but they are the most powerful living eldar ever.
Or am i wrong?

They are definitely way more powerful than a garden variety Exarch. It might be that they are just Exarchs who have been around SO long that they became that powerful, but it seems more likely that they unlocked certain mystic abilities (maybe the favor of Khaine himself) that allowed them to focus on a unique aspect of war and found their own shrines.

There is even an argument to be made that our phoenix lord are our old god in elf form (or what has been left of it)

Could be, but not as a simple avatar/incarnation. Wasn't Asurmen a hero whom Asuryan gave the Crystal Sons to train long before the Fall? So Asurmen might be the champion of Asuryan, but wouldn't actually be Asuryan.

I mean they way i imagine (and believe) is that the god has been absorbed in the armor.

That would explain on how in the path of the eldar Karadras practically eat the exarch without merging consciences just like it happened with Koriandil