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2019/07/03 18:13:43
Subject: Re:Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
Well god damn, they just went and did it didn't they. They might, just might, have given the necrons a functional and useful version of the reanimation protocols rule in certain squad configurations.
Looking over the 'cron roster, most of their durability appears to come from their Leadership, as they are effectively immune to morale damage until they have 3 blasts in front of them (minimum of 5 successful wounds). That means as a baseline they'll be very good to scale into larger squads and this rule further incentivizes that. But what it does mean is they'll be operating with very few command cards, because you won't want to be bringing min size troops at all. Min immortals is undoubtably one of their worst options, though I like the idea of a battalion of maxed immortals squads with tesla carbines. For just 2PL more than a comparable sized squad of warriors you get a 6+sv, the same gun but with full effectiveness at 24" rather than having to slooooowly close to 12", and you can make use of Living Metal.
The ability to use a Ghost ark is really the only reason I'd consider 10x warriors. 3x10 warriors+Catacomb Command+accompanying Ghost Ark seems like a good battalion, but Overlord+3x10 Immortals might be better. But Monoliths are going to be the real killer IMO, basically conveying risk-free deep strike straight into range for maxed warrior or Lychguard squads. They're expensive but they look mean as balls.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/07/04 00:23:09
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
Time will tell but, to me, they seem to surfer from the same things that kill them in 40k.
Focus fire to kill a pack in one go. Deny living metal.
It seems very strong on paper on smaller apo games (for those going for 40k in apo type of games). But everybody had the same reaction with RP in 8th, and learned to counter it.
The Monolith will enable 1st turn lychguard charge and they hit like a truck. Dropping pack of warriors will be good too.
Praetorian, i think, will be interesting (no moral, decent at shooting or Close combat and good move).
Flayed Ones with deep strike and terror troops are very interesting.
Scarabs might never die.
CCB may offer some nice tricks too.
Destroyers seems to lack damage (even with 3 heavy in a 9 squad they are very expensive, hard to kill, but have 3 gauss cannon shots and 3 heavy gauss cannon shots for 25PL.
I want to try them all !
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/04 00:23:54
2019/07/04 05:17:41
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
Flayed Ones with deep strike and terror troops are very interesting.
Do we know what Terror Troops does yet?
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
2019/07/04 06:11:35
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
the_scotsman wrote: Notes from the MWG Apoc battle report, will update as I learn new things.
1) Normal missions appear to be on 6' x 6' tables, with 3' between deployment zones and presumably 18" deployment zones. A hefty gap!
2) The Infiltrators special rule allows a unit to be placed within 24", rather than 12" of their commander, and grants special permission to not be placed in the designated deployment area. So you could deploy your detachment normally with the commander on the deployment edge and theoretically start your Infiltrator unit 24" into the no-man's land, handing them a turn 1 charge if they have 6" or more of movement and the Assault order. So, I guess that kind of answers the question of whether Infiltrators is a big deal when looking at Striking Scorpions vs Harlequins - seems like it! I guess that Infiltrators doesn't allow you to deploy outside the DZ if you have it and you ARE the detachment warlord, though, because presumably Broodlords have it as well.
3) Deep strikers arrive in the Orders phase at the beginning and can arrive turn 1, and can then immediately be issued an order...which can be "Assault." Deep strike is guaranteed turn 1 charge if your Move stat is higher than 4". So, look to see Deep Strike budgeted PRETTY heavily on units, especially melee units.
4) if your unit contains more than 5 models an additional coherency restriction applies, requiring you to be within 1/2" of not just one, but two other models in the unit. This makes screening by stringing your models out impossible unless using very small units. Oddly this would seem to make Bikes the single best screen units in apoc, lol, with their superhuman ability to turn 90 degrees and get longer.
5) 40k Supersonic flyer movement restrictions no longer apply - you no longer need to turn 90 degrees and move in a straight line with flyers. the Flyer Wing detachment has a minimum size of 1, but only grants the corresponding Faction Trait if you have 3 or more models in the detachment. The same thing applies to Super Heavy vs Super Heavy Aux detachments, so if you want "fight and shoot" knights, you need to bring a full superheavy detachment. Supersonic appears to prevent the unit from ever scoring an objective and gives a -1 to hit.
6) They mention that Critical Damage has some kind of effect on Heavy weapons, in addition to Halving your attacks stat. Multiplicative weapons (with an Attacks X2 stat for example) are indeed immune to Critical Damage.
7) When the commander unit of the detachment dies, you immediately nominate a new Commander. So, Commander death does not immediately result in units being OOC, but may if you can only nominate a unit 12" or more away from other units in the detachment. This is how I'd hoped it'd work.
8) Supercharge allows you to optionally add +1 to any wound rolls, but unmodified rolls of 1 cause a small blast to yourself.
9) inferno is simply "Auto-hit".
10) Light Characters are at -1 to hit, heavy characters no penalty. There is a warlord trait that makes your Character only targetable if he's the closest, so presumably characters can be targeted freely otherwise. EDIT: You can definitely target light characters with any kind of model, I'm watching another batrep where someone is avoiding the penalties to hit by using a knight's Inferno cannon on infantry characters because his objective involves killing warlords.
11) Terrain works completely differently to base 40k. If your unit starts its action wholly within 6" of a terrain feature, it may forfeit its movement to "Garrison" the terrain, and the terrain feature becomes the unit for all targeting/range measuring purposes. The unit then gains some kind of defensive bonus for doing so.
12) Transports appear to work very similarly to 40k, but I don't think there's an extra 3" for disembarking and there's no chance of damage when your vehicle is destroyed (Except when it's a Titanic and it explodes, in which case you must get out first and take the explosion). Don't know how Embarking works because in the game I watched they all started in transports and only either got out or got out because the transport died. The role of transports appears to be purely based on protection, because no matter how flimsy your trukk is, you WILL survive one turn and deposit your models down on the board undamaged, which is quite powerful IMO, but transports do not provide any kind of means to do a turn 1 charge or anything.
Love the idea of garrisoning terrain where the terrain becomes the unit. I can see this fixing a lot of problems. Feels like Tiberium Wars
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/04 08:20:11
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2019/07/04 08:57:22
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
the_scotsman wrote: N
6) They mention that Critical Damage has some kind of effect on Heavy weapons, in addition to Halving your attacks stat. Multiplicative weapons (with an Attacks X2 stat for example) are indeed immune to Critical Damage.
I'm not 100% on this as some of the previewed rule text was hard to read ( I can never tell if they over-saturate the lighting on these youtube previews on purpose... ), my understanding is that:
Heavy weapons get -1 to hit when critically damaged
Small Arms typically have an attacks value based on the unit, showing as something like User, x2, x3, etc. When a unit halves it's Attacks characteristic for being critically damaged it will affect some weapons more than others.
So if you have a unit at half wounds with 2 A base and a weapon with A: user, it will now do 1 attack with that weapon.
However if the unit has 1 A base and has a weapon with A: 2x, then it does the same damage as before.
So weapons with a multiplier will be much better when units take damage.
2019/07/04 14:12:49
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
The faction ability doesn't seem that strong. The command assets do look good though. They work best on huge units.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2019/07/04 14:41:30
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
the_scotsman wrote: Notes from the MWG Apoc battle report, will update as I learn new things.
1) Normal missions appear to be on 6' x 6' tables, with 3' between deployment zones and presumably 18" deployment zones. A hefty gap!
2) The Infiltrators special rule allows a unit to be placed within 24", rather than 12" of their commander, and grants special permission to not be placed in the designated deployment area. So you could deploy your detachment normally with the commander on the deployment edge and theoretically start your Infiltrator unit 24" into the no-man's land, handing them a turn 1 charge if they have 6" or more of movement and the Assault order. So, I guess that kind of answers the question of whether Infiltrators is a big deal when looking at Striking Scorpions vs Harlequins - seems like it! I guess that Infiltrators doesn't allow you to deploy outside the DZ if you have it and you ARE the detachment warlord, though, because presumably Broodlords have it as well.
3) Deep strikers arrive in the Orders phase at the beginning and can arrive turn 1, and can then immediately be issued an order...which can be "Assault." Deep strike is guaranteed turn 1 charge if your Move stat is higher than 4". So, look to see Deep Strike budgeted PRETTY heavily on units, especially melee units.
4) if your unit contains more than 5 models an additional coherency restriction applies, requiring you to be within 1/2" of not just one, but two other models in the unit. This makes screening by stringing your models out impossible unless using very small units. Oddly this would seem to make Bikes the single best screen units in apoc, lol, with their superhuman ability to turn 90 degrees and get longer.
5) 40k Supersonic flyer movement restrictions no longer apply - you no longer need to turn 90 degrees and move in a straight line with flyers. the Flyer Wing detachment has a minimum size of 1, but only grants the corresponding Faction Trait if you have 3 or more models in the detachment. The same thing applies to Super Heavy vs Super Heavy Aux detachments, so if you want "fight and shoot" knights, you need to bring a full superheavy detachment. Supersonic appears to prevent the unit from ever scoring an objective and gives a -1 to hit.
6) They mention that Critical Damage has some kind of effect on Heavy weapons, in addition to Halving your attacks stat. Multiplicative weapons (with an Attacks X2 stat for example) are indeed immune to Critical Damage.
7) When the commander unit of the detachment dies, you immediately nominate a new Commander. So, Commander death does not immediately result in units being OOC, but may if you can only nominate a unit 12" or more away from other units in the detachment. This is how I'd hoped it'd work.
8) Supercharge allows you to optionally add +1 to any wound rolls, but unmodified rolls of 1 cause a small blast to yourself.
9) inferno is simply "Auto-hit".
10) Light Characters are at -1 to hit, heavy characters no penalty. There is a warlord trait that makes your Character only targetable if he's the closest, so presumably characters can be targeted freely otherwise. EDIT: You can definitely target light characters with any kind of model, I'm watching another batrep where someone is avoiding the penalties to hit by using a knight's Inferno cannon on infantry characters because his objective involves killing warlords.
11) Terrain works completely differently to base 40k. If your unit starts its action wholly within 6" of a terrain feature, it may forfeit its movement to "Garrison" the terrain, and the terrain feature becomes the unit for all targeting/range measuring purposes. The unit then gains some kind of defensive bonus for doing so.
12) Transports appear to work very similarly to 40k, but I don't think there's an extra 3" for disembarking and there's no chance of damage when your vehicle is destroyed (Except when it's a Titanic and it explodes, in which case you must get out first and take the explosion). Don't know how Embarking works because in the game I watched they all started in transports and only either got out or got out because the transport died. The role of transports appears to be purely based on protection, because no matter how flimsy your trukk is, you WILL survive one turn and deposit your models down on the board undamaged, which is quite powerful IMO, but transports do not provide any kind of means to do a turn 1 charge or anything.
Love the idea of garrisoning terrain where the terrain becomes the unit. I can see this fixing a lot of problems. Feels like Tiberium Wars
Yeah, on another bat rep they clarify that critical damage is -1 with all heavy weapons and 1/2 attacks rounding up.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/07/05 02:32:12
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
i caved and preordered the space marine box set off miniature market. $280 worth of stuff for $144, not a bad deal. Mix with my starter set primaris stuff and I'll have a nice sized army. Also have 1 original repulsor, haven't decided if I wanna get the new one yet at $100. I say that while I browse FW's website trying to talk myself out of blowing my summer bonus on an Astraeus tank or a couple of leviathan dreads, just cuz.
2019/07/05 09:09:31
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
As tempting as the Tyranid offer was I've managed to talk myself out of it - mostly because I've already got a bunch of bugs unbuilt and I figure why add to the mountain with more as it will likely backfire and defeat my determination to finish them.
the_scotsman wrote: Notes from the MWG Apoc battle report, will update as I learn new things.
1) Normal missions appear to be on 6' x 6' tables, with 3' between deployment zones and presumably 18" deployment zones. A hefty gap!
Haven't had time to watch the battle report. I do hope that the gap is 36", I had heard that it was 24", which was far too close for a game of this scale. That was my one major concern about the game, so I am relieved to hear this.
Sadly, this means I am now more likely to order the rules... oh well!
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
2019/07/05 11:20:17
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
Got the CSM Battalion in the end. World Eaters sold so was able to start up the new army...
Seriously, £80 for a box with over £160 of stuff in it. You can also make a perfectly valid Battalion from it as well - it;s not just one HQ if you make one of the Bikes into a Biker Lord with spare bits from the CSM kits.
Now only a CSM player.
2019/07/05 12:29:02
Subject: Re:Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
Haven't had time to watch the battle report. I do hope that the gap is 36", I had heard that it was 24", which was far too close for a game of this scale. That was my one major concern about the game, so I am relieved to hear this.
The deployment I played it was 24". i specifically asked the friend with the rule-book as I had thought it was 36. It was 24" deployment and 24" separation. That said with a 24" deployment zone you have plenty of room to deploy back. We got 4 objectives, two placed by each player, which only needed to be placed 18" from each edge and each other. Sadly this means that the objectives were all held already at the start of the game.
2019/07/06 12:40:40
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
the_scotsman wrote: Notes from the MWG Apoc battle report, will update as I learn new things.
1) Normal missions appear to be on 6' x 6' tables, with 3' between deployment zones and presumably 18" deployment zones. A hefty gap!
Haven't had time to watch the battle report. I do hope that the gap is 36", I had heard that it was 24", which was far too close for a game of this scale. That was my one major concern about the game, so I am relieved to hear this.
Sadly, this means I am now more likely to order the rules... oh well!
In mwg, they said it was a 6' by 6' table with 36" gap and they specifically held off on some alpha strike stuff because they only had a 24" gap on their table due to the table they had.
Maybe it varies by mission.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/07/06 13:56:16
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
question -- I have a fair amount of Deathguard, regular chaos Space Marines stuff (Bikes, etc.) and demons (Bloodletters, etc.). Can I field 2 or 3 detachments to get all my stuff on the table? Or is a player limited to one army faction?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Secondly, why did so many units lose all their special weapons? Such as bikers (bolters and melee only) and Raptors (now pistols and chainswords only). I assume it's to speed up game play, but that really takes a lot of punch out of basic troops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/06 14:22:18
~ Shrap
Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Konflikt '47 * Conquest Last Argument of Kings * A War Transformed
2019/07/06 14:27:49
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
Shrapnelsmile wrote: question -- I have a fair amount of Deathguard, regular chaos Space Marines stuff (Bikes, etc.) and demons (Bloodletters, etc.). Can I field 2 or 3 detachments to get all my stuff on the table? Or is a player limited to one army faction?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Secondly, why did so many units lose all their special weapons? Such as bikers (bolters and melee only) and Raptors (now pistols and chainswords only). I assume it's to speed up game play, but that really takes a lot of punch out of basic troops.
they abstracted away non heavy weapons pretty darn hard
2019/07/06 15:07:12
Subject: Re:Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
Remember, a plasma/melta gun is irrelevant and can be abstracted away but a single storm bolter is very important and needs to be represented.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/07/06 16:22:50
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
the_scotsman wrote: Notes from the MWG Apoc battle report, will update as I learn new things.
5) 40k Supersonic flyer movement restrictions no longer apply - you no longer need to turn 90 degrees and move in a straight line with flyers.
11) Terrain works completely differently to base 40k. If your unit starts its action wholly within 6" of a terrain feature, it may forfeit its movement to "Garrison" the terrain, and the terrain feature becomes the unit for all targeting/range measuring purposes. The unit then gains some kind of defensive bonus for doing so.
I want these rules to be in 40k. They are much better than the current ones.
What I have
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Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2019/07/06 18:06:24
Subject: Re:Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
Peregrine wrote: Remember, a plasma/melta gun is irrelevant and can be abstracted away but a single storm bolter is very important and needs to be represented.
Look up the datasheet for Dominions, both have a profile there. The melta isn't very strong, with a 7+ against tanks, and a very weak 11+ against troops! Though I don't understand why they didn't give both a stronger profile, but requiring more models from the unit to take the same weapon for it to count as one weapon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/06 18:07:11
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2019/07/06 20:23:08
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
stratigo wrote: I am really bummed that Custodes feel like an after thought. They just have least amount of everything
how so?
They just have far fewer cards than any other army and a army bonus that, now that I have read the critical damage rule wording, isn’t nearly as effective. The sweet spot of wounds seem to be 4, and you have to do over half to cripple a unit. And their leadership is actually quite low. Custodian guard have the same leadership as tacticals. The guards of the emperor, pinnacle of elites, can get shot at once and shake in their boots. Custodes squads are gonna eat huge morale attrition.
Like there is so much they could have done with Custodes cards. They took away lance charges for our bikers, why not make a card for that? What about literally any strategem? Only two stratagems even got translated to apoc. Where’s my cool thematic rules? The Custodes lost a lot of hitting power in the transition and then they don’t even get more than four cards. fething four. That’s less than like a third of any other army. Really. It is tragic. There’s nothing about their defensiveness. Their preternatural skill. No wonders unleashed from the vaults of terra. It feels like they forgot they made Custodes an actual army and not just the one box
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/06 22:06:30
2019/07/07 17:50:28
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
stratigo wrote: I am really bummed that Custodes feel like an after thought. They just have least amount of everything
how so?
They just have far fewer cards than any other army and a army bonus that, now that I have read the critical damage rule wording, isn’t nearly as effective. The sweet spot of wounds seem to be 4, and you have to do over half to cripple a unit. And their leadership is actually quite low. Custodian guard have the same leadership as tacticals. The guards of the emperor, pinnacle of elites, can get shot at once and shake in their boots. Custodes squads are gonna eat huge morale attrition.
Like there is so much they could have done with Custodes cards. They took away lance charges for our bikers, why not make a card for that? What about literally any strategem? Only two stratagems even got translated to apoc. Where’s my cool thematic rules? The Custodes lost a lot of hitting power in the transition and then they don’t even get more than four cards. fething four. That’s less than like a third of any other army. Really. It is tragic. There’s nothing about their defensiveness. Their preternatural skill. No wonders unleashed from the vaults of terra. It feels like they forgot they made Custodes an actual army and not just the one box
Read better. You need to do damage equal to half or more, so having the trait of custodes at 4 wounds is a huge benefit.
Also, 3 cards is the standard all factions get. All the other cards are related to subfaction traits, so factions without subfactions get 3 cards.
2019/07/07 19:32:00
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
Given the cost savings of the knights box and recent chaos knight announcement would the apocalypse box set be worth getting just for the price savings?
I'm a chaos player so I already have a bunch of extra spikes, skulls, etc. which is what the chaos knights seem to offer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/07 20:45:53
I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy.
2019/07/07 21:46:32
Subject: Apocalypse and other reinforcements going up for preorder the 29th
ScarletRose wrote: Given the cost savings of the knights box and recent chaos knight announcement would the apocalypse box set be worth getting just for the price savings?
I'm a chaos player so I already have a bunch of extra spikes, skulls, etc. which is what the chaos knights seem to offer.
assuming you wanna run the knights in the box, absolutely.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
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