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Made in de
Sinister Chaos Marine



Forsaken wastes of Brandenburg

Lady Atia has a few tidbits, too:
tidbits

DR:70+S+G++MB-IPw40k94#-D++A++/cWD143R++T(D)DM+
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Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




USA

 Spreelock wrote:
So, i've just noticed from video reviews that there are no more brigade detachment available..


Correct. Because there are no more HQ's needed. This is to encourage the alternate activation more.

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Thairne wrote:
Is anyone else unable to preorder the Knights box at all?
I remember checking yesterday at like 10 am, not available as the only box of the entire bunch.
Still today, not available.
Element games lists it as GW Online store only...

What gives?
Did it sell out on the very first day in the first half hour? o_O


It showed up for me as "Online nicht auf Lager" on the German store when clicking on the pic on the community site. I just checked and got the same result.

   
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Fully-charged Electropriest




UK

The knight one sold out very quick. It was gone from GW, Element and every other site i’ve used before by 10:45. Kinda glad as it meant I didn’t order it, to leave it unbuilt in a box next to imperial knight: renegade.

Imperial Soup
2200pts/1750 painted
2800pts/1200 painted
2200pts/650 painted
217pts/151 painted 
   
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Notes from the MWG Apoc battle report, will update as I learn new things.

1) Normal missions appear to be on 6' x 6' tables, with 3' between deployment zones and presumably 18" deployment zones. A hefty gap!

2) The Infiltrators special rule allows a unit to be placed within 24", rather than 12" of their commander, and grants special permission to not be placed in the designated deployment area. So you could deploy your detachment normally with the commander on the deployment edge and theoretically start your Infiltrator unit 24" into the no-man's land, handing them a turn 1 charge if they have 6" or more of movement and the Assault order. So, I guess that kind of answers the question of whether Infiltrators is a big deal when looking at Striking Scorpions vs Harlequins - seems like it! I guess that Infiltrators doesn't allow you to deploy outside the DZ if you have it and you ARE the detachment warlord, though, because presumably Broodlords have it as well.

3) Deep strikers arrive in the Orders phase at the beginning and can arrive turn 1, and can then immediately be issued an order...which can be "Assault." Deep strike is guaranteed turn 1 charge if your Move stat is higher than 4". So, look to see Deep Strike budgeted PRETTY heavily on units, especially melee units.

4) if your unit contains more than 5 models an additional coherency restriction applies, requiring you to be within 1/2" of not just one, but two other models in the unit. This makes screening by stringing your models out impossible unless using very small units. Oddly this would seem to make Bikes the single best screen units in apoc, lol, with their superhuman ability to turn 90 degrees and get longer.

5) 40k Supersonic flyer movement restrictions no longer apply - you no longer need to turn 90 degrees and move in a straight line with flyers. the Flyer Wing detachment has a minimum size of 1, but only grants the corresponding Faction Trait if you have 3 or more models in the detachment. The same thing applies to Super Heavy vs Super Heavy Aux detachments, so if you want "fight and shoot" knights, you need to bring a full superheavy detachment. Supersonic appears to prevent the unit from ever scoring an objective and gives a -1 to hit.

6) They mention that Critical Damage has some kind of effect on Heavy weapons, in addition to Halving your attacks stat. Multiplicative weapons (with an Attacks X2 stat for example) are indeed immune to Critical Damage.

7) When the commander unit of the detachment dies, you immediately nominate a new Commander. So, Commander death does not immediately result in units being OOC, but may if you can only nominate a unit 12" or more away from other units in the detachment. This is how I'd hoped it'd work.

8) Supercharge allows you to optionally add +1 to any wound rolls, but unmodified rolls of 1 cause a small blast to yourself.

9) inferno is simply "Auto-hit".

10) Light Characters are at -1 to hit, heavy characters no penalty. There is a warlord trait that makes your Character only targetable if he's the closest, so presumably characters can be targeted freely otherwise. EDIT: You can definitely target light characters with any kind of model, I'm watching another batrep where someone is avoiding the penalties to hit by using a knight's Inferno cannon on infantry characters because his objective involves killing warlords.

11) Terrain works completely differently to base 40k. If your unit starts its action wholly within 6" of a terrain feature, it may forfeit its movement to "Garrison" the terrain, and the terrain feature becomes the unit for all targeting/range measuring purposes. The unit then gains some kind of defensive bonus for doing so.

12) Transports appear to work very similarly to 40k, but I don't think there's an extra 3" for disembarking and there's no chance of damage when your vehicle is destroyed (Except when it's a Titanic and it explodes, in which case you must get out first and take the explosion). Don't know how Embarking works because in the game I watched they all started in transports and only either got out or got out because the transport died. The role of transports appears to be purely based on protection, because no matter how flimsy your trukk is, you WILL survive one turn and deposit your models down on the board undamaged, which is quite powerful IMO, but transports do not provide any kind of means to do a turn 1 charge or anything.

This message was edited 14 times. Last update was at 2019/07/02 13:38:10


 
   
Made in us
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Steelcity

The 2 small blasts becoming 1 large blast rule seems to give chaff units with no armor (or if they ignore large blast) basically double the amount of wounds. I hope it's optional that the attacker can turn them into large blast

For example I almost always would rather a unit with a 10+ save to take 2 save rolls rather than 1 automatic wound, just due to math.

Keeper of the DomBox
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Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




 Kirasu wrote:
The 2 small blasts becoming 1 large blast rule seems to give chaff units with no armor (or if they ignore large blast) basically double the amount of wounds. I hope it's optional that the attacker can turn them into large blast

For example I almost always would rather a unit with a 10+ save to take 2 save rolls rather than 1 automatic wound, just due to math.


You do not. This is why you see large chaff blobs pay extra for additional models: gaining extra wounds greatly increases their durability.
   
Made in us
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Steelcity

the_scotsman wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
The 2 small blasts becoming 1 large blast rule seems to give chaff units with no armor (or if they ignore large blast) basically double the amount of wounds. I hope it's optional that the attacker can turn them into large blast

For example I almost always would rather a unit with a 10+ save to take 2 save rolls rather than 1 automatic wound, just due to math.


You do not. This is why you see large chaff blobs pay extra for additional models: gaining extra wounds greatly increases their durability.


That doesn't seem true. Harlequins are 8 for 5, 15 for 10 so they get a discount yet always use d12s for saves..thus making it so they basically have 2x the wounds for no reason

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 Kirasu wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
The 2 small blasts becoming 1 large blast rule seems to give chaff units with no armor (or if they ignore large blast) basically double the amount of wounds. I hope it's optional that the attacker can turn them into large blast

For example I almost always would rather a unit with a 10+ save to take 2 save rolls rather than 1 automatic wound, just due to math.


You do not. This is why you see large chaff blobs pay extra for additional models: gaining extra wounds greatly increases their durability.


That doesn't seem true. Harlequins are 8 for 5, 15 for 10 so they get a discount yet always use d12s for saves..thus making it so they basically have 2x the wounds for no reason


On top of minus one to hit and a character that give minus one to wound
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




 Kirasu wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
The 2 small blasts becoming 1 large blast rule seems to give chaff units with no armor (or if they ignore large blast) basically double the amount of wounds. I hope it's optional that the attacker can turn them into large blast

For example I almost always would rather a unit with a 10+ save to take 2 save rolls rather than 1 automatic wound, just due to math.


You do not. This is why you see large chaff blobs pay extra for additional models: gaining extra wounds greatly increases their durability.


That doesn't seem true. Harlequins are 8 for 5, 15 for 10 so they get a discount yet always use d12s for saves..thus making it so they basically have 2x the wounds for no reason


Elite, expensive units who will be more heavily impacted by the Leadership roll before damage resolution will usually either pay no extra points or get a discount for additional models, as opponents are incentivized to focus fire and try to take them out in one go.

So you'll see units like Terminators, Custodes, Marines etc getting a discount or occasionally getting free heavy weapons/other bonuses for higher squad sizes.

Remember, damage resolution in apoc is:

1) Take a LD test. Roll a D6 and add the number of blasts on you (not damage points i.e. unsaved wounds, total number of blasts whether large or small BEFORE damage is resolved). If you fail, take 1 damage immediately.

2) Make your saves against the blasts in front of you. This makes morale the best way to actually harm units with amazing save stats if they have multiple wounds.

Even with their D12 rule, Harlequins tend to die faster than comparably priced elite units as they have 1W rather than 2W as a base (like Custodes, Terminators etc have). A base save of 3+ is still better against Large blasts (and vastly better vs Small blasts) than Harlequins' "Always on a D12" 6+sv.

Don't get me wrong, Harlequins might be OP. They've got some definitely bonkers damage output to them and good durability. But in terms of general principle the pricing differential between Elites and Chaff units in apoc seems to make good sense.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/01 15:22:15


 
   
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Custodes get 0 discounts. Their unit sizes and corresponding stats are, in fact, quite odd. Allarus termies, for example, get quite screwed going 3 to 5, picking up one attack, but only one wound on top of the three they start with, meaning, for whatever reason, three man squads are more durable than their weight in 10 man squads.
   
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stratigo wrote:
Custodes get 0 discounts. Their unit sizes and corresponding stats are, in fact, quite odd. Allarus termies, for example, get quite screwed going 3 to 5, picking up one attack, but only one wound on top of the three they start with, meaning, for whatever reason, three man squads are more durable than their weight in 10 man squads.


So... just don't play the 5 man I suppose?
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




stratigo wrote:
Custodes get 0 discounts. Their unit sizes and corresponding stats are, in fact, quite odd. Allarus termies, for example, get quite screwed going 3 to 5, picking up one attack, but only one wound on top of the three they start with, meaning, for whatever reason, three man squads are more durable than their weight in 10 man squads.


I'll be honest: you've already decided, zero games in, that Custodes are the worst thing in the world and suck in apocalypse. Whatever piece of information exists, you will decide it backs up that viewpoint. So I'm not going to bother refuting everything you bring up in your gish gallops, I'll just find the first counterexample to your blanket statement and go with that.

The first unit I looked at, Custodian guard, goes from 3 to 5 models and increases in cost from 7 to 10PL. Their offense doubles and their defense increases by 50% for a 30% cost increase. Allarus Custodes do seem to get a somewhat worse deal, gaining only 25% defense and doubling offense for a 38% increase.

It is worth noting that with Deep Strike, Allarus custodes have a guaranteed turn 1 charge, making offense more of a priority than defense, and across the board Custodes totally ignore Critical damage, so they gain an advantage that other factions don't always get in that a maxed unit of 10 allarus custodes with 7 wound counters on it will be hitting you exactly as hard as a full-health unit of 10, and if you had 3 units of allarus custodes instead, 2/3 would be dead at that point.

   
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the_scotsman wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Custodes get 0 discounts. Their unit sizes and corresponding stats are, in fact, quite odd. Allarus termies, for example, get quite screwed going 3 to 5, picking up one attack, but only one wound on top of the three they start with, meaning, for whatever reason, three man squads are more durable than their weight in 10 man squads.


I'll be honest: you've already decided, zero games in, that Custodes are the worst thing in the world and suck in apocalypse. Whatever piece of information exists, you will decide it backs up that viewpoint. So I'm not going to bother refuting everything you bring up in your gish gallops, I'll just find the first counterexample to your blanket statement and go with that.

The first unit I looked at, Custodian guard, goes from 3 to 5 models and increases in cost from 7 to 10PL. Their offense doubles and their defense increases by 50% for a 30% cost increase. Allarus Custodes do seem to get a somewhat worse deal, gaining only 25% defense and doubling offense for a 38% increase.

It is worth noting that with Deep Strike, Allarus custodes have a guaranteed turn 1 charge, making offense more of a priority than defense, and across the board Custodes totally ignore Critical damage, so they gain an advantage that other factions don't always get in that a maxed unit of 10 allarus custodes with 7 wound counters on it will be hitting you exactly as hard as a full-health unit of 10, and if you had 3 units of allarus custodes instead, 2/3 would be dead at that point.



That’s not what gish gallop means

Anyways, in my estimation, you want the MSU Custodes to maximize the effectiveness of the vexilia. A ten man termie squad gets 2 extra attacks. Three three man squads get 6 extra attacks, for a noticeable increase in damage. And that’s only melee. Each allarus unit actually nets 3 more shots, which actually makes their shooting more effective against infantry models It’s pretty drastic.

That said, the forgeworld terminators are just straight superior for the same cost, getting a times three bonus and having better melee weapons. If you have the funds, one vexilia with three or four Aquilon squads puts out a noticeable amount of melee damage.

For my money Custodes are pushed even harder into bikes though, if you aren’t able or willing to do forgeworld. And it bothers me how bad bike melee is and how they get less health than their termie fellows. But they are the only source of firepower you get, and don’t require a vexilia to really get going. A MSU termie bomb is also a possible tool, maximizing that vexilia bonus, but they need that vexilia. It literally doubles their output and it sort of leaves a bad taste that a forgeworld unit is them but just straight better

The wild card, as it were, are the cards

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 16:44:51


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




stratigo wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Custodes get 0 discounts. Their unit sizes and corresponding stats are, in fact, quite odd. Allarus termies, for example, get quite screwed going 3 to 5, picking up one attack, but only one wound on top of the three they start with, meaning, for whatever reason, three man squads are more durable than their weight in 10 man squads.


I'll be honest: you've already decided, zero games in, that Custodes are the worst thing in the world and suck in apocalypse. Whatever piece of information exists, you will decide it backs up that viewpoint. So I'm not going to bother refuting everything you bring up in your gish gallops, I'll just find the first counterexample to your blanket statement and go with that.

The first unit I looked at, Custodian guard, goes from 3 to 5 models and increases in cost from 7 to 10PL. Their offense doubles and their defense increases by 50% for a 30% cost increase. Allarus Custodes do seem to get a somewhat worse deal, gaining only 25% defense and doubling offense for a 38% increase.

It is worth noting that with Deep Strike, Allarus custodes have a guaranteed turn 1 charge, making offense more of a priority than defense, and across the board Custodes totally ignore Critical damage, so they gain an advantage that other factions don't always get in that a maxed unit of 10 allarus custodes with 7 wound counters on it will be hitting you exactly as hard as a full-health unit of 10, and if you had 3 units of allarus custodes instead, 2/3 would be dead at that point.



That’s not what gish gallop means

Anyways, in my estimation, you want the MSU Custodes to maximize the effectiveness of the vexilia. A ten man termie squad gets 2 extra attacks. Three three man squads get 6 extra attacks, for a noticeable increase in damage. And that’s only melee. Each allarus unit actually nets 3 more shots, which actually makes their shooting more effective against infantry models It’s pretty drastic.

That said, the forgeworld terminators are just straight superior for the same cost, getting a times three bonus and having better melee weapons. If you have the funds, one vexilia with three or four Aquilon squads puts out a noticeable amount of melee damage.

For my money Custodes are pushed even harder into bikes though, if you aren’t able or willing to do forgeworld. And it bothers me how bad bike melee is and how they get less health than their termie fellows. But they are the only source of firepower you get, and don’t require a vexilia to really get going. A MSU termie bomb is also a possible tool, maximizing that vexilia bonus, but they need that vexilia. It literally doubles their output and it sort of leaves a bad taste that a forgeworld unit is them but just straight better


Making short declarative statements that take much more time to refute than to state in the first place, with little evidence to back them up, is definitionally gish galloping. Claiming "Custodes get 0 discounts" takes far longer than pulling up the custode codex and outlining any discounts that custodes do, in fact, get based on the stat increases they gain for higher unit sizes.

all space marine vehicles and weapons are overcosted in apocalypse.

Prove me wrong.

EDIT: Fair point on the custode terminators, the Forgeworld terminator models do appear to be just straight upgrades, unless they fight characters and even then the advantage is real slight.

Also not sure what you're on about with shooting. A full 10-man squad gets 1 more attack than 3 3-man squads, meaning they'll take 2 more shots, and even assuming you've got your 3 3-man squads in a Vexilla aura, you'll only get a single additional melee attack over the 10-man squad in a vexilla aura.

10-man seems to have several advantages over MSU, even assuming you want a vexilla.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/01 16:54:57


 
   
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the_scotsman wrote:
stratigo wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Custodes get 0 discounts. Their unit sizes and corresponding stats are, in fact, quite odd. Allarus termies, for example, get quite screwed going 3 to 5, picking up one attack, but only one wound on top of the three they start with, meaning, for whatever reason, three man squads are more durable than their weight in 10 man squads.


I'll be honest: you've already decided, zero games in, that Custodes are the worst thing in the world and suck in apocalypse. Whatever piece of information exists, you will decide it backs up that viewpoint. So I'm not going to bother refuting everything you bring up in your gish gallops, I'll just find the first counterexample to your blanket statement and go with that.

The first unit I looked at, Custodian guard, goes from 3 to 5 models and increases in cost from 7 to 10PL. Their offense doubles and their defense increases by 50% for a 30% cost increase. Allarus Custodes do seem to get a somewhat worse deal, gaining only 25% defense and doubling offense for a 38% increase.

It is worth noting that with Deep Strike, Allarus custodes have a guaranteed turn 1 charge, making offense more of a priority than defense, and across the board Custodes totally ignore Critical damage, so they gain an advantage that other factions don't always get in that a maxed unit of 10 allarus custodes with 7 wound counters on it will be hitting you exactly as hard as a full-health unit of 10, and if you had 3 units of allarus custodes instead, 2/3 would be dead at that point.



That’s not what gish gallop means

Anyways, in my estimation, you want the MSU Custodes to maximize the effectiveness of the vexilia. A ten man termie squad gets 2 extra attacks. Three three man squads get 6 extra attacks, for a noticeable increase in damage. And that’s only melee. Each allarus unit actually nets 3 more shots, which actually makes their shooting more effective against infantry models It’s pretty drastic.

That said, the forgeworld terminators are just straight superior for the same cost, getting a times three bonus and having better melee weapons. If you have the funds, one vexilia with three or four Aquilon squads puts out a noticeable amount of melee damage.

For my money Custodes are pushed even harder into bikes though, if you aren’t able or willing to do forgeworld. And it bothers me how bad bike melee is and how they get less health than their termie fellows. But they are the only source of firepower you get, and don’t require a vexilia to really get going. A MSU termie bomb is also a possible tool, maximizing that vexilia bonus, but they need that vexilia. It literally doubles their output and it sort of leaves a bad taste that a forgeworld unit is them but just straight better


Making short declarative statements that take much more time to refute than to state in the first place, with little evidence to back them up, is definitionally gish galloping. Claiming "Custodes get 0 discounts" takes far longer than pulling up the custode codex and outlining any discounts that custodes do, in fact, get based on the stat increases they gain for higher unit sizes.

all space marine vehicles and weapons are overcosted in apocalypse.

Prove me wrong.

EDIT: Fair point on the custode terminators, the Forgeworld terminator models do appear to be just straight upgrades, unless they fight characters and even then the advantage is real slight.

Also not sure what you're on about with shooting. A full 10-man squad gets 1 more attack than 3 3-man squads, meaning they'll take 2 more shots, and even assuming you've got your 3 3-man squads in a Vexilla aura, you'll only get a single additional melee attack over the 10-man squad in a vexilla aura.

10-man seems to have several advantages over MSU, even assuming you want a vexilla.


Custodes have 4 units that progress mate. You’re committing the fallacy fallacy now.

The vexilia ups allarus shooting by one as well. So in rapid fire range every allarus unit gets 2 ranged weapon attacks and 1 grenade launcher attack more. So a ten man squad gets 8 and 4 while three three men units get 12 and 6. Melee is 8 and 12 respectively as well. It is a large buff. It makes their shooting stronger against infantry than their melee attacks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 17:11:12


 
   
Made in us
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stratigo wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
stratigo wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Custodes get 0 discounts. Their unit sizes and corresponding stats are, in fact, quite odd. Allarus termies, for example, get quite screwed going 3 to 5, picking up one attack, but only one wound on top of the three they start with, meaning, for whatever reason, three man squads are more durable than their weight in 10 man squads.


I'll be honest: you've already decided, zero games in, that Custodes are the worst thing in the world and suck in apocalypse. Whatever piece of information exists, you will decide it backs up that viewpoint. So I'm not going to bother refuting everything you bring up in your gish gallops, I'll just find the first counterexample to your blanket statement and go with that.

The first unit I looked at, Custodian guard, goes from 3 to 5 models and increases in cost from 7 to 10PL. Their offense doubles and their defense increases by 50% for a 30% cost increase. Allarus Custodes do seem to get a somewhat worse deal, gaining only 25% defense and doubling offense for a 38% increase.

It is worth noting that with Deep Strike, Allarus custodes have a guaranteed turn 1 charge, making offense more of a priority than defense, and across the board Custodes totally ignore Critical damage, so they gain an advantage that other factions don't always get in that a maxed unit of 10 allarus custodes with 7 wound counters on it will be hitting you exactly as hard as a full-health unit of 10, and if you had 3 units of allarus custodes instead, 2/3 would be dead at that point.



That’s not what gish gallop means

Anyways, in my estimation, you want the MSU Custodes to maximize the effectiveness of the vexilia. A ten man termie squad gets 2 extra attacks. Three three man squads get 6 extra attacks, for a noticeable increase in damage. And that’s only melee. Each allarus unit actually nets 3 more shots, which actually makes their shooting more effective against infantry models It’s pretty drastic.

That said, the forgeworld terminators are just straight superior for the same cost, getting a times three bonus and having better melee weapons. If you have the funds, one vexilia with three or four Aquilon squads puts out a noticeable amount of melee damage.

For my money Custodes are pushed even harder into bikes though, if you aren’t able or willing to do forgeworld. And it bothers me how bad bike melee is and how they get less health than their termie fellows. But they are the only source of firepower you get, and don’t require a vexilia to really get going. A MSU termie bomb is also a possible tool, maximizing that vexilia bonus, but they need that vexilia. It literally doubles their output and it sort of leaves a bad taste that a forgeworld unit is them but just straight better


Making short declarative statements that take much more time to refute than to state in the first place, with little evidence to back them up, is definitionally gish galloping. Claiming "Custodes get 0 discounts" takes far longer than pulling up the custode codex and outlining any discounts that custodes do, in fact, get based on the stat increases they gain for higher unit sizes.

all space marine vehicles and weapons are overcosted in apocalypse.

Prove me wrong.

EDIT: Fair point on the custode terminators, the Forgeworld terminator models do appear to be just straight upgrades, unless they fight characters and even then the advantage is real slight.

Also not sure what you're on about with shooting. A full 10-man squad gets 1 more attack than 3 3-man squads, meaning they'll take 2 more shots, and even assuming you've got your 3 3-man squads in a Vexilla aura, you'll only get a single additional melee attack over the 10-man squad in a vexilla aura.

10-man seems to have several advantages over MSU, even assuming you want a vexilla.


Custodes have 4 units that progress mate. You’re committing the fallacy fallacy now.

The vexilia ups allarus shooting by one as well. So in rapid fire range every allarus unit gets 2 ranged weapon attacks and 1 grenade launcher attack more. So a ten man squad gets 8 and 4 while three three men units get 12 and 6. Melee is 8 and 12 respectively as well. It is a large buff. It makes their shooting stronger against infantry than their melee attacks.


Complains that I don't examine the stats of every single unit in the codex because the faction has so few units.

Gets one of the three aura abilities the entire faction has access to wrong.

Vexilla only affects Fight actions. No effect to shooting.
   
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the_scotsman wrote:
stratigo wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
stratigo wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Custodes get 0 discounts. Their unit sizes and corresponding stats are, in fact, quite odd. Allarus termies, for example, get quite screwed going 3 to 5, picking up one attack, but only one wound on top of the three they start with, meaning, for whatever reason, three man squads are more durable than their weight in 10 man squads.


I'll be honest: you've already decided, zero games in, that Custodes are the worst thing in the world and suck in apocalypse. Whatever piece of information exists, you will decide it backs up that viewpoint. So I'm not going to bother refuting everything you bring up in your gish gallops, I'll just find the first counterexample to your blanket statement and go with that.

The first unit I looked at, Custodian guard, goes from 3 to 5 models and increases in cost from 7 to 10PL. Their offense doubles and their defense increases by 50% for a 30% cost increase. Allarus Custodes do seem to get a somewhat worse deal, gaining only 25% defense and doubling offense for a 38% increase.

It is worth noting that with Deep Strike, Allarus custodes have a guaranteed turn 1 charge, making offense more of a priority than defense, and across the board Custodes totally ignore Critical damage, so they gain an advantage that other factions don't always get in that a maxed unit of 10 allarus custodes with 7 wound counters on it will be hitting you exactly as hard as a full-health unit of 10, and if you had 3 units of allarus custodes instead, 2/3 would be dead at that point.



That’s not what gish gallop means

Anyways, in my estimation, you want the MSU Custodes to maximize the effectiveness of the vexilia. A ten man termie squad gets 2 extra attacks. Three three man squads get 6 extra attacks, for a noticeable increase in damage. And that’s only melee. Each allarus unit actually nets 3 more shots, which actually makes their shooting more effective against infantry models It’s pretty drastic.

That said, the forgeworld terminators are just straight superior for the same cost, getting a times three bonus and having better melee weapons. If you have the funds, one vexilia with three or four Aquilon squads puts out a noticeable amount of melee damage.

For my money Custodes are pushed even harder into bikes though, if you aren’t able or willing to do forgeworld. And it bothers me how bad bike melee is and how they get less health than their termie fellows. But they are the only source of firepower you get, and don’t require a vexilia to really get going. A MSU termie bomb is also a possible tool, maximizing that vexilia bonus, but they need that vexilia. It literally doubles their output and it sort of leaves a bad taste that a forgeworld unit is them but just straight better


Making short declarative statements that take much more time to refute than to state in the first place, with little evidence to back them up, is definitionally gish galloping. Claiming "Custodes get 0 discounts" takes far longer than pulling up the custode codex and outlining any discounts that custodes do, in fact, get based on the stat increases they gain for higher unit sizes.

all space marine vehicles and weapons are overcosted in apocalypse.

Prove me wrong.

EDIT: Fair point on the custode terminators, the Forgeworld terminator models do appear to be just straight upgrades, unless they fight characters and even then the advantage is real slight.

Also not sure what you're on about with shooting. A full 10-man squad gets 1 more attack than 3 3-man squads, meaning they'll take 2 more shots, and even assuming you've got your 3 3-man squads in a Vexilla aura, you'll only get a single additional melee attack over the 10-man squad in a vexilla aura.

10-man seems to have several advantages over MSU, even assuming you want a vexilla.


Custodes have 4 units that progress mate. You’re committing the fallacy fallacy now.

The vexilia ups allarus shooting by one as well. So in rapid fire range every allarus unit gets 2 ranged weapon attacks and 1 grenade launcher attack more. So a ten man squad gets 8 and 4 while three three men units get 12 and 6. Melee is 8 and 12 respectively as well. It is a large buff. It makes their shooting stronger against infantry than their melee attacks.


Complains that I don't examine the stats of every single unit in the codex because the faction has so few units.

Gets one of the three aura abilities the entire faction has access to wrong.

Vexilla only affects Fight actions. No effect to shooting.


That’s what I get for trusting warhammer community when it says a thing XD
   
Made in ca
Kabalite Conscript






It would have been cool if the dark eldar power from pain ability was more than just ignore damage on a 6+. Mind you its cool and helpful to be sure, and looks to apply to vehicles, except wracks who already have the ability?

But maybe in addition to this, if your unit is within 6" to a model with at least one damage on it, get +1 to hit against that model? This would favor an aggressive play style like dark eldar and offers a tactic. I think most army special rules should have come up with some way to add more decisions, like marines only have reroll morale while genestealer cults have quite the army wide ability, which is personally dumb imo. If you have initiative, don't bother shooting at genestealer cult light units or they will just remove them and heal them up when they act.

//ALL GLORY TO THE PARTRIDGES

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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




 PFI wrote:
It would have been cool if the dark eldar power from pain ability was more than just ignore damage on a 6+. Mind you its cool and helpful to be sure, and looks to apply to vehicles, except wracks who already have the ability?

But maybe in addition to this, if your unit is within 6" to a model with at least one damage on it, get +1 to hit against that model? This would favor an aggressive play style like dark eldar and offers a tactic. I think most army special rules should have come up with some way to add more decisions, like marines only have reroll morale while genestealer cults have quite the army wide ability, which is personally dumb imo. If you have initiative, don't bother shooting at genestealer cult light units or they will just remove them and heal them up when they act.


GW, could you not have given a bunch of Haemonculus Covens units a totally redundant ability? As it stands, pretty much the only unit that's worthwhile with the Haemonculus' aura is Pain Engines. Yippee, I can reroll save rolls for my Sv8+ and Sv9+ grotesques and Wracks, that'll be super useful for when I take a single small blast and literally nothing else. I hadn't even looked at Grotesques, they got turned into a HELL of a glass cannon for apoc. I thought Harlequin damage output was crazy, grots do more vs infantry for 40% less cost, and they die to the stiffest of breezes.

The GSC rule I don't think is as powerful as you think it is. It says remove a DAMAGE marker, not a BLAST marker - unless there's some kind of rule where units in Reserves with Blasts on them don't take damage during the damage resolution step, you wouldn't really gain anything from cult ambushing a unit with just blast markers on it (so, damage that had been applied in that turn). Only if you had a unit that survived with damage on it into the new turn.

   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

the_scotsman wrote:
 PFI wrote:
It would have been cool if the dark eldar power from pain ability was more than just ignore damage on a 6+. Mind you its cool and helpful to be sure, and looks to apply to vehicles, except wracks who already have the ability?

But maybe in addition to this, if your unit is within 6" to a model with at least one damage on it, get +1 to hit against that model? This would favor an aggressive play style like dark eldar and offers a tactic. I think most army special rules should have come up with some way to add more decisions, like marines only have reroll morale while genestealer cults have quite the army wide ability, which is personally dumb imo. If you have initiative, don't bother shooting at genestealer cult light units or they will just remove them and heal them up when they act.


GW, could you not have given a bunch of Haemonculus Covens units a totally redundant ability? As it stands, pretty much the only unit that's worthwhile with the Haemonculus' aura is Pain Engines. Yippee, I can reroll save rolls for my Sv8+ and Sv9+ grotesques and Wracks, that'll be super useful for when I take a single small blast and literally nothing else. I hadn't even looked at Grotesques, they got turned into a HELL of a glass cannon for apoc. I thought Harlequin damage output was crazy, grots do more vs infantry for 40% less cost, and they die to the stiffest of breezes.

The GSC rule I don't think is as powerful as you think it is. It says remove a DAMAGE marker, not a BLAST marker - unless there's some kind of rule where units in Reserves with Blasts on them don't take damage during the damage resolution step, you wouldn't really gain anything from cult ambushing a unit with just blast markers on it (so, damage that had been applied in that turn). Only if you had a unit that survived with damage on it into the new turn.


Having watched the two Miniwargaming/ Glacial Geek battle reports Genestealer Cult units look very fragile, it doesn't seem that they'll live long enough to remove those damage markers, meanwhile re roll to moral seems rather powerful in this game.

Where are you seeing the re-roll save rolls ability? The Haemonculus ability is +1 to saving rolls which again is great on Pain Engines with their 5+ but terrible on Grots with their 8+, and yes giving Ignore Damage (6+) to units in an army that has the same ability army wide is stupidly redundent.
   
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Dakka Veteran




Gene cults seemed pretty eeeeeh to me until I saw their army rule, and that is really fuggin cool
   
Made in de
Sinister Chaos Marine



Forsaken wastes of Brandenburg

 Imateria wrote:
The Haemonculus ability is +1 to saving rolls which again is great on Pain Engines with their 5+ but terrible on Grots with their 8+, and yes giving Ignore Damage (6+) to units in an army that has the same ability army wide is stupidly redundent.


Except that you only get the faction rules if your entire detachment is made up of one and the same faction. So units who have the ability could be part of a mixed faction or be an adhoc detachment (which is a thing, I think?). Should you desperately feel the need for that kind of thing at apocalyptic scale...

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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




Snugiraffe wrote:
 Imateria wrote:
The Haemonculus ability is +1 to saving rolls which again is great on Pain Engines with their 5+ but terrible on Grots with their 8+, and yes giving Ignore Damage (6+) to units in an army that has the same ability army wide is stupidly redundent.


Except that you only get the faction rules if your entire detachment is made up of one and the same faction. So units who have the ability could be part of a mixed faction or be an adhoc detachment (which is a thing, I think?). Should you desperately feel the need for that kind of thing at apocalyptic scale...


I mean, yeah, the haemie coven units that have it are literally "incredibly generic and blah troop choice that doesn't do much of anything" and "a unit whose sole purpose is buffing other coven units", so if you really want them in a mixed detachment because you just can't get enough of them wrack, then....great.

Definitely think I'll just be giving it a miss and running only pain engines. Kabalites have guns, wyches have no escape, I'll just take those.
   
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Dakka Veteran




Didn't one of the previewed cards tag off of haemonculae. Because, yeah, why would you ever take wracks over kabalites?
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

stratigo wrote:
Didn't one of the previewed cards tag off of haemonculae. Because, yeah, why would you ever take wracks over kabalites?

Yeah, the Crucible of Maladiction, which at least looks a lot more usable than it does in 40K. And yeah, Coven is increasingly looking like it will be solely about the pain engines, though I suppose 6 Grots in a Tantalus might be viable. And thats another problem with them, the squad sizes mean you can only put a minimum squad of 3 in a Raider when it could fit 5, but it doesn't seem that your allowed to take 5.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Imateria wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Didn't one of the previewed cards tag off of haemonculae. Because, yeah, why would you ever take wracks over kabalites?

Yeah, the Crucible of Maladiction, which at least looks a lot more usable than it does in 40K. And yeah, Coven is increasingly looking like it will be solely about the pain engines, though I suppose 6 Grots in a Tantalus might be viable. And thats another problem with them, the squad sizes mean you can only put a minimum squad of 3 in a Raider when it could fit 5, but it doesn't seem that your allowed to take 5.


I'm seriously cheesed at squad sizes myself
   
Made in fi
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Helsinki, Finland

Cant seem to find out, was there some sort of restriction with keywords in a detachment? E.g. can I include Vanguard with inquisitor and 4x assassin?

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Made in ca
Been Around the Block




As far as I can tell, there are no list building restrictions, other than every unit must share a faction keyword.

Those kind of “no duplicate genecult characters” or “one commander per detachment” stuff was specific to codexes, and we don’t have those.
   
Made in fi
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Helsinki, Finland

Necron faction focus

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/07/03/apocalypse-faction-focus-necronsgw-homepage-post-4/

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Dark Angels (11000), Astra+AdMech+Assassin (7000), Tyranids (3000), Tau (3000), Legions of Nagash (2500) 
   
 
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