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This thread is making me sad :(
I grew up (literally) playing and collecting oldmarines. To see them usurped by these young whipper snappers grinds old grandpas gears!

I'm assuming by Mark III you mean Terminator armor? I haven't seen any 40K rules that Mark III "Iron" power armor gets special rules?

I'm not sure I'd say Gravis is better than Tactical Dreadnought Armor. No Invuln. No Relentless. But its not a whole lot worse either. The Sweeping Advance stuff is pretty much gone, but it comes and goes and Gravis is more maneuverable so it might not get slow and purposeful if sweeping advance style rules make a come back.

Fluff wise, a Marine 1.0 with 100 years of experience probably has more confidence. A Primaris with 100 years of experience spend 10,000 years as a popsicle in Cawl's lab and will be out of sorts trying to get reacclimated to present day. Decimus Felix is/was constantly second guessing himself.

A Primaris company with 60, 20 and 20 plus two redemptors and 8 Repulsors will have a their hands full with a 1.0 company using Razorbacks, especially TLLC versions. At least to start.

Assume 3 Tac Squads, and at least one Dev Squads will have a TLLC Razorback, that's 8 LC shots probably at least one if not two dead repulsors. The Repulsors will take down the Razorbacks faster and eventually win - and given the points difference I would hope so.

Assuming both sets of Dreads are AC/Gatling+Fist loadouts, not TLLC/ML the Redemptors should wear down the 1.0 Dreads.

Infantry wise, the Primaris are going to get the faster start They get to start sooner, and double tap sooner. The 1.0's have more ablative wounds to preserve their most effective tools longer, plus the question of if the Repulsors want to try and use volume to take down all the Razorbacks or split fire onto infantry. Additionally having double the wounds on the Primaris will slow down the 1.0's. The Assault Marines will do well if they can get into the Hellblasters, but so will the four by 5 squads of Interceptors if they get into the Devastators. The Assault Marines will fare poorly vs the Intercessors however, as the Sgt's can take power weapons and the regular troopers will match them attack for attack. The TLHB Razorbacks will be the interesting role players here. They probably can't save the Dev's - a Deep/Alpha Strike will do too much 1 turn damage, but they can thin out the Intercessors pretty well. forcing the Intercessors to AuxGL some Kraks at the Razorbacks.

One Intercessor vs one Tactical marine is curtains for the Tactical marine in a laugher. A full company on company is much closer, probably coming down to which transports can provide the most assistance after they wage their own competition.

Wyzilla wrote:As far as we know a Primaris Marine cannot use storm bolters, meltaguns, combi bolters, MK 3 power armor, Centurion Armor, Grav Guns, and a plethora of melee weapons.

Source, aside from not seeing it in game?

So if the fight is between two veterans? Money should absolutely be on the mini-marine due to superior equipment. Sure Primaris can bolt Gravis plates onto their Tacticus to enhance their durability, but a normal marine can slap on MK 3 power armor for enhanced strength and durability and grab a combi-grav or combi-melta that will erase the Primaris Marine with a single shot regardless of the armor he's got on.

Mark 3, while superior in frontal durability, also suffers from poor movement - it's also not THAT much better, certainly not as drastically better over Mark 7 than Gravis is for Tacticus pattern.

If you're bringing in the combi-grav or combi-melta, then the Primaris Marine should have access to a plasma exterminator or plasma incinerator.

Also on the grand strategic scale? Primaris get their arses whipped courtesy of inferior logistics and poor adaptability. On an individual level they are superior, but they've got a long ways to go for any hope of being able to fight equally as a whole.

Again, sources? As far as I'm seeing, the old marines are relying on ancient gear, whereas the Primaris are getting direct supplies from Mars, not to mention superior and easier to produce for them (seeing how Cawl was able to arm the entire Indomitus Crusade with new gear).

Logistically, the Primaris are superior, no?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, sources? As far as I'm seeing, the old marines are relying on ancient gear, whereas the Primaris are getting direct supplies from Mars, not to mention superior and easier to produce for them (seeing how Cawl was able to arm the entire Indomitus Crusade with new gear).

Logistically, the Primaris are superior, no?

How do you know that? Cawl was making Primaris for 10,000 years. You think he wasn't building their gear for 10,000 years too?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:As far as we know a Primaris Marine cannot use storm bolters, meltaguns, combi bolters, MK 3 power armor, Centurion Armor, Grav Guns, and a plethora of melee weapons.

Source, aside from not seeing it in game?

We don't see it in lore. All they use are their in-game loadouts.

So if the fight is between two veterans? Money should absolutely be on the mini-marine due to superior equipment. Sure Primaris can bolt Gravis plates onto their Tacticus to enhance their durability, but a normal marine can slap on MK 3 power armor for enhanced strength and durability and grab a combi-grav or combi-melta that will erase the Primaris Marine with a single shot regardless of the armor he's got on.

Mark 3, while superior in frontal durability, also suffers from poor movement - it's also not THAT much better, certainly not as drastically better over Mark 7 than Gravis is for Tacticus pattern.

Haven’t Primaris used Drop pods in the lore? I’m not going to believe Primaris can’t use regular weapons because it’s not directly shown. Plus they keep getting new things as well and more advanced things as well. I haven’t read the new stories with them in it, but I know that Guilliman’s crusade went decently well and that most all the chapters have Primaris and Primaris-making tech now. That makes me believe whatever problems that Forge Worlds may have had to adapting to new production were minor and not worth mentioning. Especially in the case that Primaris are getting various different power armor “loadouts” and various new weapons like the suppressor autocannons and various carbines sniper weapons.

Breton wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, sources? As far as I'm seeing, the old marines are relying on ancient gear, whereas the Primaris are getting direct supplies from Mars, not to mention superior and easier to produce for them (seeing how Cawl was able to arm the entire Indomitus Crusade with new gear).

Logistically, the Primaris are superior, no?

How do you know that? Cawl was making Primaris for 10,000 years. You think he wasn't building their gear for 10,000 years too?

That's a good point, I did overlook that. However, I've not seen anything that indicates it's any less rare than standard equipment - so perhaps logistically they're more equal.

Wyzilla wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:As far as we know a Primaris Marine cannot use storm bolters, meltaguns, combi bolters, MK 3 power armor, Centurion Armor, Grav Guns, and a plethora of melee weapons.

Source, aside from not seeing it in game?

We don't see it in lore. All they use are their in-game loadouts.

Again, is there a reason why they can't, beyond "the game says they can't". Like, physically, why can't they?

No, Mark 3 is completely superior to MK 7 in terms of durability while also boosting strength and allowing enhanced durability to boot. Just one Blood Angel in MK 3 boarding plate was enough to brutalize First Claw and trade kills with their heresy-surviving Champion.

Weren't First Claw basically wearing scavenged power armour and equipment though?

Plus, it's also a LOT more power hungry and heavy, leaving it unsuitable for conventional warfare - it's a great suit of breaching and boarding armour, but for all-round combat? Not ideal, and the modularity of Tacticus, in how it can interface with anything from Phobos to Gravis make it extremely versatile, with Cawl literally having taken some of the best element of 30k era armour and putting them on the Tacticus plate.

Unless in an open environment where mobility is needed, MK 3 is absolutely the best you can get for the job, along with boosting your strength more than other power armor marks.

No need to boost strength when the Primaris Marine is stronger anyways - and the Primaris Marine still has all their manoeuvrability, and more utility than the Mark 3.

Again, I'd also like to point out, in 40k, the Mark 3 is not standard equipment. It's rare, it's venerable, it's not available to all Marines - never has been. Tacticus plate is available to ALL Primaris Marines.

If you're bringing in the combi-grav or combi-melta, then the Primaris Marine should have access to a plasma exterminator or plasma incinerator.

Which is worse because they can't be used in CQC without threatening the primaris marine from the splash damage of unleashing heavy plasma fire.

No more so than the meltagun. The grav is the safest option, but also still more short ranged than even the shortest range of plasma incinerator.

Ah yes. The Primaris are totally logistically superior, they just depend on Mars.

My mistake, I used Mars to refer to the entire group, as in, the Mechanicum.

The Primaris are the Mechanicum's priority right now, judging from Cawl's influence (he might not be the Fabricator General, but he has a lot of political power), and they're certainly getting a massive amount of equipment to keep up with the crusading.

Marine gear is also not "ancient", most of it is new or "ancient" hulls which are destroyed and continually rebuilt.

The Mark 3 armour certainly is.
Ancient is also relative - compared to the Primaris kit, it's not far off ancient.

Likewise due to using old Legion structure, Primaris lack any tactical flexibility on the squad level and are entirely dependent on other units for survival on the battlefield and cannot adapt to face threats themselves.

And yet their lore states otherwise.

Really, they're terribly organized and terribly structured from a logistics point of view to the point that they should be completely inferior to just making more old marines and taking advantage of the preexisting industry. Instead of needing everything to be changed in the future just to support Primaris Chapters.

And yet they were able to almost singlehandedly stabilise the Imperium with the Indomitus Crusade, and their supposed tactical failures in their logistics seem to be having no issues at all.

Considering that Guilliman himself made these changes, and they're actually working fine, I think that's enough evidence for me to think that this wasn't as bad an idea as you see it.

Primaris make about as much sense as the US military suddenly adopting the FN SCAR over the M4A1, requiring a total overhaul of all existing production, storage, supply, and training for minimal value compared to doing more economically sensible, such as powder improvement.

So no military has ever upgraded it's equipment drastically to meet the demands of modern warfare?

You're saying that the US shouldn't have moved on from muskets? That we should have peaked all our technology at throwing spears and melee tools, because why bother moving onto superior tech when you can just upgrade from a base model that might not be viable to improve?

Apple Peel wrote:Haven’t Primaris used Drop pods in the lore?

Yes, they can. Source is from those Warhammer Adventure books, which are as canon as anything else.

If they can use Drop Pods, they can use Rhinos. They can use Land Raiders. They can use thunder hammers, combi-weapons, storm shields, any standard Astartes weapon, because why wouldn't they be able to?
The only reason we've not seen it is because GW haven't made rules of it.

Don’t forget about the Repulsor executioner. Sounds like the main guns are beastly.

Again, is there a reason why they can't, beyond "the game says they can't". Like, physically, why can't they?

Doctrine. Unless we see them using it in a canonical source they don't, as GW seems to be sticking by the Codex solidly. Likewise sheer size would prevent them from using much of Astartes equipment.

Weren't First Claw basically wearing scavenged power armour and equipment though?

Scavenged power armor will have zero effect on its effectiveness and ignores that their equipment is actually master-crafted courtesy of the squad having its own Artisan. Considering that Xarl survived a Thunder Hammer to the face, his power armor was working just fine.

Plus, it's also a LOT more power hungry and heavy, leaving it unsuitable for conventional warfare - it's a great suit of breaching and boarding armour, but for all-round combat? Not ideal, and the modularity of Tacticus, in how it can interface with anything from Phobos to Gravis make it extremely versatile, with Cawl literally having taken some of the best element of 30k era armour and putting them on the Tacticus plate.

No it isn't. MK 3 is no more power hungry than any other power armor mark and was used all the time in conventional fighting by the Legions (that doens't even make sense, power armor is powered by a fusion reactor and works indefinitely unless damaged) - the only thing Mark IV had over it (and subsequent armors) was the sensor suite. Otherwise it's just up-armored MK 2 suited for heavy assaults courtesy of the thickened armor and boosted strength.

No need to boost strength when the Primaris Marine is stronger anyways - and the Primaris Marine still has all their manoeuvrability, and more utility than the Mark 3.

Again, I'd also like to point out, in 40k, the Mark 3 is not standard equipment. It's rare, it's venerable, it's not available to all Marines - never has been. Tacticus plate is available to ALL Primaris Marines.

Depends entirely on the Chapter. Likewise MK3 in modularity seems to be pretty damn common according to GW itself with the Ultramarines Second Company is mostly wearing schizophrenic power armor.

No more so than the meltagun. The grav is the safest option, but also still more short ranged than even the shortest range of plasma incinerator.

...There is nothing dangerous about using a meltagun in close quarters, it is an ENERGY BEAM. Unless you're a butt naked human, flash vaporizing an enemy right in front of you with a meltagun does nothing. A plasma cannon and its analogs are plasma mortars firing ginormous globs of plasma which explode on impact and vaporize all of its surroundings or act like a plasma super-soaker. They cannot be used up in close quarters beyond a plasma pistol unless you're feeling particularly suicidal about deploying an ordinance weapon right near your own face.

The Mark 3 armour certainly is.
Ancient is also relative - compared to the Primaris kit, it's not far off ancient.

Not by 40k standards. Armor is constantly destroyed and rebuilt - it isn't the same gear by any means outside of the rare Artificer suit which never suffered the misfortune of getting blasted by a meltagun or smoked by a krak missile.

And yet their lore states otherwise.
And yet they were able to almost singlehandedly stabilise the Imperium with the Indomitus Crusade, and their supposed tactical failures in their logistics seem to be having no issues at all.

Considering that Guilliman himself made these changes, and they're actually working fine, I think that's enough evidence for me to think that this wasn't as bad an idea as you see it.

That's author plot shields. Guilliman ranges from a moderately intelligent commander to a slack-jawed drooling idiot depending which author's at the wheel, and considering the Black Library's usual quality he's definitely not accurately portrayed as any true tactical genius comparable to the likes of Chinggis, Marius, Belisarius, or Alexander. He wins because he takes one of the strongest forces in the galaxy and applies it with all of the finesse of swinging a mallet, then calls it a victory after sustaining high losses. That's not the mark of a tactical genius, that's the mark of an idiot in charge of a military force that wins by virtue of its own overwhelming strength regardless while sustaining pointless losses. Also they did not "stabilize" the Imperium, the Imperium is currently in the worst state it's ever been since the Horus Heresy/Beast War. There is only one safe corridor to even access the Imperium Nihilus while Chaos Space Marines and Daemons routinely pour out of the Great Rift to terrorize the galaxy. The Imperium's chokehold on Chaos is completely lost and is now a border spanning the entire galaxy which cleaved the Imperium itself in half. That's not "stable", that's "on the verge of fething collapse".

So no military has ever upgraded it's equipment drastically to meet the demands of modern warfare?

You're saying that the US shouldn't have moved on from muskets? That we should have peaked all our technology at throwing spears and melee tools, because why bother moving onto superior tech when you can just upgrade from a base model that might not be viable to improve?

Stop being fething obtuse. You do not overhaul a weapons system in the middle of a war straining your resources by making an even larger iteration of that system requiring everything to be overhauled when it doesn't actually have much of an effect. In sanity land, Primaris Marines are god damn stupid because they are logistically pointless - the answer to "we're outgunned" isn't to render yourself vulnerable by revamping the special forces in the middle of a daemonic outbreak, it's making more of them. Primaris are completely idiotic from a logistical standpoint because the logical answer to the problem is to simply ramp up the production of normal marines to take advantage of the existing industry which already supports them - not to introduce something completely new that demands retrofitting every damn Forge World in the galaxy as fast as possible.

just because they can use drop pods doesn't mean they can use land raiders and rhinos. it's possiable that well it's not been statted primaris marines have their own mark of drop pod as well.

BrianDavion wrote:
just because they can use drop pods doesn't mean they can use land raiders and rhinos. it's possiable that well it's not been statted primaris marines have their own mark of drop pod as well.

I'd take anything from Warhammer Adventures with a grain of salt considering it has kids who are not rabid-xenos hating lunatics despite growing up in the Imperium where they should have been spoonfed propaganda from birth.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Again, is there a reason why they can't, beyond "the game says they can't". Like, physically, why can't they?

Doctrine. Unless we see them using it in a canonical source they don't, as GW seems to be sticking by the Codex solidly. Likewise sheer size would prevent them from using much of Astartes equipment.

Doesn't Gulliman use some Marine's bolter? Didn't he loan a sword of his to a Marine going to Calth? Is Guilliman smaller than a Primaris marine?

 Ratius wrote:
Taking them both at say 100 years old and fully trained is there any chance for an OldMarine VS a Primaris?
Are Prims in every way flat out better?

See the Kurt Russel movie Soldier. (Spoiler - he kills them all)

 Brotherjulian wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Taking them both at say 100 years old and fully trained is there any chance for an OldMarine VS a Primaris?
Are Prims in every way flat out better?

See the Kurt Russel movie Soldier. (Spoiler - he kills them all)

He also had vastly more experience, not equal experience.

for your consideration, gentlemen

.. yeah not considering that at all, it's a lame unfunny joke.

Assuming equal experience, the one edge the old marines have is a deep armory of tools to choose from. Which if you take away the marketing based “No Model, No Rules” BS, the primaris should have more access to.

I really wish GW put some drawbacks to the primaris. Like trading stability/longevity for the increased abilities they offered. Some reason to stick with the old, Emperor blessed, marines. But right now primaris are just marines++. There is no drawback, so why not just switch over?

In the currant timeline, the one edge old marines have is experience. Which is actually significant. It also makes upgrading existing marines not worth it in universe IMHO. Calgar, who has centuries of experience and expertise, risks it all on a throw of the dice just to be able to punch things slightly better? Sure, him being stronger/faster/tougher is a good thing, but to risk his lifetime of battles? He is a force multiplier. He makes any army he leads better, greater then the sum of it’s parts. Going big just works as a force adder, it helps when he personally needs to punch something out.

But Calgar is a bit of a bad example here, as he’s got issues of being the Chapter Master when his primarch came back. So I’ll cut him some slack.

Wyzilla wrote:

Again, is there a reason why they can't, beyond "the game says they can't". Like, physically, why can't they?

Doctrine. Unless we see them using it in a canonical source they don't, as GW seems to be sticking by the Codex solidly. Likewise sheer size would prevent them from using much of Astartes equipment.

Sheer size? Can't Primarchs use normal Marine weapons?
Also, isn't that doctrine being rewritten by Guilliman?

The only thing I'm getting from this is "they're not modelled with it in game, so I'm gonna say they can't use it even if they logically should be able to".

Scavenged power armor will have zero effect on its effectiveness

Disagree. We see in several cases where scavenged, and therefore damaged, power armour is inferior to properly maintained ones.

and ignores that their equipment is actually master-crafted courtesy of the squad having its own Artisan. Considering that Xarl survived a Thunder Hammer to the face, his power armor was working just fine.

If their scavenged armour can survive against thunder hammers to the face (which I think is fine, fits Marine strength levels), then Tacticus will be even better than that.

No it isn't. MK 3 is no more power hungry than any other power armor mark

Lexicanum disagrees, as has nearly any source on Mark III I've seen. Where's your source on this?

and was used all the time in conventional fighting by the Legions (that doens't even make sense

Again, Lexicanum disagrees. Mark III wasn't even available to outfit an entire Legion - it was a uncommon armour mark even when it was in production, and was mostly given over to boarding and breaching teams BECAUSE of it's rarity and unsuitability for conventional combat.

Curious to see your source on the matter.

Depends entirely on the Chapter. Likewise MK3 in modularity seems to be pretty damn common according to GW itself with the Ultramarines Second Company is mostly wearing schizophrenic power armor.

You mean, probably the most prestigious company of one of the most prestigious Chapters ever has a high proportion of relic/uncommon gear?

The Ultramarines 2nd is not a benchmark for "standard" Space Marine armour, no more so than the Minotaurs and Red Scorpions are a benchmark for how common Mark IV is.

No more so than the meltagun. The grav is the safest option, but also still more short ranged than even the shortest range of plasma incinerator.

...There is nothing dangerous about using a meltagun in close quarters, it is an ENERGY BEAM. Unless you're a butt naked human, flash vaporizing an enemy right in front of you with a meltagun does nothing.

Isn't plasma also energy?

Plus, I'm pretty sure the MASSIVE amounts of heat of a meltagun is going to radiate back on you. They're far worse than plasma.

A plasma cannon and its analogs are plasma mortars firing ginormous globs of plasma which explode on impact and vaporize all of its surroundings or act like a plasma super-soaker. They cannot be used up in close quarters beyond a plasma pistol unless you're feeling particularly suicidal about deploying an ordinance weapon right near your own face.

Good thing I'm not talking about plasma cannons, I'm talking about plasma incinerators, which are functionally the same as plasma guns, which don't fire "globs of plasma" like a mortar would.

They're still balls of energy, but the splash damage is no worse than that of the meltagun at close range.

Not by 40k standards. Armor is constantly destroyed and rebuilt - it isn't the same gear by any means outside of the rare Artificer suit which never suffered the misfortune of getting blasted by a meltagun or smoked by a krak missile.

Mark III is still rare - as are most Marks that aren't VII or now X. There's a reason that most Marines are depicted as wearing 7 - if Mark III were as common as you make it out to be, and so good as you put it, why is it not more common in depictions of Astartes?

That's author plot shields. Guilliman ranges from a moderately intelligent commander to a slack-jawed drooling idiot depending which author's at the wheel, and considering the Black Library's usual quality he's definitely not accurately portrayed as any true tactical genius comparable to the likes of Chinggis, Marius, Belisarius, or Alexander. He wins because he takes one of the strongest forces in the galaxy and applies it with all of the finesse of swinging a mallet, then calls it a victory after sustaining high losses. That's not the mark of a tactical genius, that's the mark of an idiot in charge of a military force that wins by virtue of its own overwhelming strength regardless while sustaining pointless losses.

You call it "plot shields", I call it canon. Sorry.

Also they did not "stabilize" the Imperium, the Imperium is currently in the worst state it's ever been since the Horus Heresy/Beast War. There is only one safe corridor to even access the Imperium Nihilus while Chaos Space Marines and Daemons routinely pour out of the Great Rift to terrorize the galaxy. The Imperium's chokehold on Chaos is completely lost and is now a border spanning the entire galaxy which cleaved the Imperium itself in half. That's not "stable", that's "on the verge of fething collapse".

And that's WITH the success of the Indomitus Crusade.

Imagine if there hadn't been Primaris to reinforce the Imperium? The older stock of Marines wouldn't have been anywhere near capable.

So no military has ever upgraded it's equipment drastically to meet the demands of modern warfare?

You're saying that the US shouldn't have moved on from muskets? That we should have peaked all our technology at throwing spears and melee tools, because why bother moving onto superior tech when you can just upgrade from a base model that might not be viable to improve?

Stop being fething obtuse. You do not overhaul a weapons system in the middle of a war straining your resources by making an even larger iteration of that system requiring everything to be overhauled when it doesn't actually have much of an effect.

It had enough of an effect to launch the Indomitus Crusade, and have some success there.

If it did strain resources, the payoff was good enough that it didn't matter - it clearly DID have a positive effect.

In sanity land, Primaris Marines are god damn stupid because they are logistically pointless - the answer to "we're outgunned" isn't to render yourself vulnerable by revamping the special forces in the middle of a daemonic outbreak, it's making more of them. Primaris are completely idiotic from a logistical standpoint because the logical answer to the problem is to simply ramp up the production of normal marines to take advantage of the existing industry which already supports them - not to introduce something completely new that demands retrofitting every damn Forge World in the galaxy as fast as possible.

Well, welcome to 40k. Our idea of logic can be left at the door, and we can embrace the logic of 40k.

BrianDavion wrote:just because they can use drop pods doesn't mean they can use land raiders and rhinos. it's possiable that well it's not been statted primaris marines have their own mark of drop pod as well.

True, but considering that Primarchs could get in Land Raiders, I think it's reasonable to assume that Primaris can.

Again, the only thing really saying they *can't* are game mechanics.

Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
just because they can use drop pods doesn't mean they can use land raiders and rhinos. it's possiable that well it's not been statted primaris marines have their own mark of drop pod as well.

I'd take anything from Warhammer Adventures with a grain of salt considering it has kids who are not rabid-xenos hating lunatics despite growing up in the Imperium where they should have been spoonfed propaganda from birth.

Still just as canon as anything else.
It's a big universe - there's bound to be *some* discrepancies, especially from the daughter of a Rogue Trader.

Breton wrote:Doesn't Gulliman use some Marine's bolter? Didn't he loan a sword of his to a Marine going to Calth? Is Guilliman smaller than a Primaris marine?

In addition, in Horus Rising, Horus picks up a fallen marine's bolter, and uses that against the Interex.

Guilliman's hands may be too big in 40k (struggles to hold a stylus), but in 30k (where he was still larger than a Primaris), he could hold a normal Marine's weapons just fine.

Nevelon wrote:Calgar, who has centuries of experience and expertise, risks it all on a throw of the dice just to be able to punch things slightly better? Sure, him being stronger/faster/tougher is a good thing, but to risk his lifetime of battles? He is a force multiplier. He makes any army he leads better, greater then the sum of it’s parts. Going big just works as a force adder, it helps when he personally needs to punch something out.

According to Vigilus Defiant, Calgar does this to foster a better relationship between the old marines and the Primaris, because there was still some tension between them. By becoming a Primaris himself, Calgar demonstrated that they were as much a Space Marine and part of the Chapter like any other. It was more than just "I want to punch better", although that was a perk.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Nevelon wrote:Calgar, who has centuries of experience and expertise, risks it all on a throw of the dice just to be able to punch things slightly better? Sure, him being stronger/faster/tougher is a good thing, but to risk his lifetime of battles? He is a force multiplier. He makes any army he leads better, greater then the sum of it’s parts. Going big just works as a force adder, it helps when he personally needs to punch something out.

According to Vigilus Defiant, Calgar does this to foster a better relationship between the old marines and the Primaris, because there was still some tension between them. By becoming a Primaris himself, Calgar demonstrated that they were as much a Space Marine and part of the Chapter like any other. It was more than just "I want to punch better", although that was a perk.

That makes a lot more sense. Risking his experience to allow a better integration of his forces is a much better risk/reward than punching things.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Nevelon wrote:Calgar, who has centuries of experience and expertise, risks it all on a throw of the dice just to be able to punch things slightly better? Sure, him being stronger/faster/tougher is a good thing, but to risk his lifetime of battles? He is a force multiplier. He makes any army he leads better, greater then the sum of it’s parts. Going big just works as a force adder, it helps when he personally needs to punch something out.

According to Vigilus Defiant, Calgar does this to foster a better relationship between the old marines and the Primaris, because there was still some tension between them. By becoming a Primaris himself, Calgar demonstrated that they were as much a Space Marine and part of the Chapter like any other. It was more than just "I want to punch better", although that was a perk.

That makes a lot more sense. Risking his experience to allow a better integration of his forces is a much better risk/reward than punching things.

Yeah. It was a rather cool thing to do. It also established that marines could be converted. The process is also dangerous and could kill the marine, which is what I like to call the “be rid of a character loophole.”

You mean, probably the most prestigious company of one of the most prestigious Chapters ever has a high proportion of relic/uncommon gear?

The Ultramarines 2nd is not a benchmark for "standard" Space Marine armour, no more so than the Minotaurs and Red Scorpions are a benchmark for how common Mark IV is.

actually a mix and match is indeed VERY common. Thing is it's not about being effective, it's about "BROTHER! THESE MARK IV PALDRONS ARE ALL THAT REMAINS OF THE ARMOR OF LUIS! THE GREAT HERO DATING BACK TO THE AGE OF APOSTOACY! MAY THE MACHINE SPIRIT WITHIN THESE PAULDRONS GUIDE YOU TO GREATNESS" in other words the marines are loath to be rid of old war gear for... essentially religious reasons

 Ratius wrote:
Taking them both at say 100 years old and fully trained is there any chance for an OldMarine VS a Primaris?
Are Prims in every way flat out better?

Primaris are essentially better in every way that we've seen so far, but ultimately it will come down to the individuals. A very strong or talented old type Marine could be able to defeat a Primaris.

 Nevelon wrote:
Calgar, who has centuries of experience and expertise, risks it all on a throw of the dice just to be able to punch things slightly better? Sure, him being stronger/faster/tougher is a good thing, but to risk his lifetime of battles? He is a force multiplier. He makes any army he leads better, greater then the sum of it’s parts. Going big just works as a force adder, it helps when he personally needs to punch something out.

But Calgar is a bit of a bad example here, as he’s got issues of being the Chapter Master when his primarch came back. So I’ll cut him some slack.

I'm with you that Papa Smurf was the choice because Grandpapa Smurf made his comeback. Even had Calgar been killed off in the battle Guilliman returned in - his 1.0 replacement would have been the one to undergo the conversion - in the first place Primaris marines are his Primarch's pet project. In the second his chapter has a Primarch and the Chapter Master is somewhat superfluous. Playing on Calgar's self perceived inadequacies just underscores it, and adds some more miscommunication tension - of the kind you see in a Hallmark movie where the new girlfriend sees the boyfriend give the old girlfriend a goodbye kiss as they part following a "Its really over" conversation - about Primaris/Marine competition


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:

Stop being fething obtuse. You do not overhaul a weapons system in the middle of a war straining your resources by making an even larger iteration of that system requiring everything to be overhauled when it doesn't actually have much of an effect.

It had enough of an effect to launch the Indomitus Crusade, and have some success there.

If it did strain resources, the payoff was good enough that it didn't matter - it clearly DID have a positive effect.

They didn't overhaul it during the middle of a war. Cawl overhauled the weapon system over a 10.000 year period starting about 10,000 years ago. They just pulled this weapon system out of storage. Something most armies do when they have to ramp up to a higher deployment level.

Sheer size? Can't Primarchs use normal Marine weapons?
Also, isn't that doctrine being rewritten by Guilliman?

The only thing I'm getting from this is "they're not modelled with it in game, so I'm gonna say they can't use it even if they logically should be able to".

Any man-portable weapon, yes. They can use plasma and bolt pistols and chainswords, and their 'hands' are the same size as a normal marines' so any astartes small arms are fine.

Vehicles or anything requiring armour integration (backpack-fed patterns of weapon) is - for the moment - a no-no. That doesn't mean they can't, but that we haven't seen it.