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Its attitudes like this that makes online gaming such cancer because everyone is just out for themselves. The game is a SOCIAL experience. Meaning that the person across the table from you wants to have fun as well, preferably with you. I'm one of the most experienced players in my group and it's easy to write lists or play the game in such a way that stomps the newer guys who just started playing when 8th brought them back. If I feel like a list it too "hard" I'll tone it back (incidentally I generally try to write lists that will be fun to put on the board, from both perspectives without being a walkover). If I feel like my opponent isn't having fun I'll change how I'm playing to give him opportunities to make a comeback. Stuff like that is the reason I never bring more than two kataphron gun bots. People's faces sink when I fire just two of them and that feels crappy for me as well. I can't imagine god awful playing against 6 or 8 of them would be for some random sod who just wanted to have fun with his metal Grey Knights hes had since 5th Ed.
When you play 40k you SHOULD be entering a social contract where you try to make the game as fun as possible for everyone involved, not just thinking "I had fun and thats all that matters".
Wait...so it's ok for you to force your play style choice on others, but not for someone to play the army style they like?
TIL...
You say you're one of the 'most experienced' players in your group. But you act like a 12 yearold trying to lecture an adult. People will play the army style that appeals to them. I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks. You're also assuming people who play gun-lines are just cheese wallowing butt-clowns, who won't modify their list for new players. Yes it's a social contract. Yes both people are supposed to have fun. But frankly, my having fun is in large part my business, and playing the list I WANT TO RUN is a large part of that. Just like I have no business telling my opponent what to run. So get off your high horse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/24 15:12:26
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: I had a lot of fun with my moving hordes of termagants and warriors, sweeping up firing non stop into the defending imperium lines, resolutely prepared to take the charge. Damn that's fun.
Also not a gunline.
OP, Tau Gunline gets a really bad rep but don't let that dissuade you. Your money and time in this hobby so do not let anyone else tell you off/otherwise. Likewise people who don't want to face gun line's do not have to. It's the future where people have super guns, of course you'll want to line them all up and BFG your way to victory!
It's a waste of money if no one wants to play against him because no one likes playing against gunlines.
There ARE people who enjoy playing into gunlines, you can't make such a blanket statement. Yes you hate it, but don't project that into a fact everyone else does.
I'm quite shocked at everyones attitude in this thread, it's a way to play the game and some armies really are built around the idea. There are ways to limit it (Terrain. Lots of it as you should with any war game! A sparse table is the biggest offender) but at the end of the day, people need to realize their own preferences start and end with them, they should not try to influence other players army ideas because *they* don't like what the list would be.
Its attitudes like this that makes online gaming such cancer because everyone is just out for themselves. The game is a SOCIAL experience. Meaning that the person across the table from you wants to have fun as well, preferably with you. I'm one of the most experienced players in my group and it's easy to write lists or play the game in such a way that stomps the newer guys who just started playing when 8th brought them back. If I feel like a list it too "hard" I'll tone it back (incidentally I generally try to write lists that will be fun to put on the board, from both perspectives without being a walkover). If I feel like my opponent isn't having fun I'll change how I'm playing to give him opportunities to make a comeback. Stuff like that is the reason I never bring more than two kataphron gun bots. People's faces sink when I fire just two of them and that feels crappy for me as well. I can't imagine god awful playing against 6 or 8 of them would be for some random sod who just wanted to have fun with his metal Grey Knights hes had since 5th Ed.
When you play 40k you SHOULD be entering a social contract where you try to make the game as fun as possible for everyone involved, not just thinking "I had fun and thats all that matters".
It's weird I agree with what you are saying, but your comments feel more appropriate to what you said earlier than to what Spirit Bane said. I like playing against gunlines sometimes, I like playing against all kinds of opponents as it tests my skills in different ways. Gunlines are usually a fairly easy win when I play against them, but that just makes it more challenging for an opponent who is playing a gunline, which, if they enjoy that, is fun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/24 15:13:08
Its attitudes like this that makes online gaming such cancer because everyone is just out for themselves. The game is a SOCIAL experience. Meaning that the person across the table from you wants to have fun as well, preferably with you. I'm one of the most experienced players in my group and it's easy to write lists or play the game in such a way that stomps the newer guys who just started playing when 8th brought them back. If I feel like a list it too "hard" I'll tone it back (incidentally I generally try to write lists that will be fun to put on the board, from both perspectives without being a walkover). If I feel like my opponent isn't having fun I'll change how I'm playing to give him opportunities to make a comeback. Stuff like that is the reason I never bring more than two kataphron gun bots. People's faces sink when I fire just two of them and that feels crappy for me as well. I can't imagine god awful playing against 6 or 8 of them would be for some random sod who just wanted to have fun with his metal Grey Knights hes had since 5th Ed.
When you play 40k you SHOULD be entering a social contract where you try to make the game as fun as possible for everyone involved, not just thinking "I had fun and thats all that matters".
Wait...so it's ok for you to force your play style choice on others, but not for someone to play the army style they like?
TIL...
You say you're one of the 'most experienced' players in your group. But you act like a 12 yearold trying to lecture an adult. People will play the army style that appeals to them. I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks. You're also assuming people who play gun-lines are just cheese wallowing butt-clowns, who won't modify their list for new players. Yes it's a social contract. Yes both people are supposed to have fun. But frankly, my having fun is in large part my business, and playing the list I WANT TO RUN is a large part of that. Just like I have no business telling my opponent what to run. So get off your high horse.
So trying to ensure my opponent has a good time is acting like a 12 year old? Cope harder. If you primary argument is "you're a bad person for trying to be a good opponent" then I dunno what to say.
Its attitudes like this that makes online gaming such cancer because everyone is just out for themselves. The game is a SOCIAL experience. Meaning that the person across the table from you wants to have fun as well, preferably with you. I'm one of the most experienced players in my group and it's easy to write lists or play the game in such a way that stomps the newer guys who just started playing when 8th brought them back. If I feel like a list it too "hard" I'll tone it back (incidentally I generally try to write lists that will be fun to put on the board, from both perspectives without being a walkover). If I feel like my opponent isn't having fun I'll change how I'm playing to give him opportunities to make a comeback. Stuff like that is the reason I never bring more than two kataphron gun bots. People's faces sink when I fire just two of them and that feels crappy for me as well. I can't imagine god awful playing against 6 or 8 of them would be for some random sod who just wanted to have fun with his metal Grey Knights hes had since 5th Ed.
When you play 40k you SHOULD be entering a social contract where you try to make the game as fun as possible for everyone involved, not just thinking "I had fun and thats all that matters".
Wait...so it's ok for you to force your play style choice on others, but not for someone to play the army style they like?
TIL...
You say you're one of the 'most experienced' players in your group. But you act like a 12 yearold trying to lecture an adult. People will play the army style that appeals to them. I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks. You're also assuming people who play gun-lines are just cheese wallowing butt-clowns, who won't modify their list for new players. Yes it's a social contract. Yes both people are supposed to have fun. But frankly, my having fun is in large part my business, and playing the list I WANT TO RUN is a large part of that. Just like I have no business telling my opponent what to run. So get off your high horse.
So trying to ensure my opponent has a good time is acting like a 12 year old? Cope harder. If you primary argument is "you're a bad person for trying to be a good opponent" then I dunno what to say.
You obviously need to reread my post.
My primary argument is that you're trying to dictate someone else's playstyle based on your homegrown scrub rules, and that playing a gunline is far different from ignoring the social contract.
Mmmpi wrote: Well, running straight forward, penis first into the enemy is technically a tactic.
It's how I became a dad!
Best thing about this thread XD
@ OP - I think almost every faction(apart from Eldar/DE/NIDS) can deliver some sort effective of gun-line line up. I think it becomes a question of how big a proportion of your army you want to be in backfield being 'an actual gunline'??
WIth objectives and such, you are unlikely to win without some moving parts to score objectives. One of the issues I find with Tau, is if you ignore their big scary stuff and kill all of the point scoring fire warriors & kill of their marker light support their gunline elements fall apart very quickly as they are forced to move. This in principle applies to all static armies. I dont think its bad or good. It just is. In the 41st millenium where everyone has guns you'd sort of expect people to stand still and shoot IMO.
I recently watched a bat rep: Black Legion Vs G-man marines. Both armies were a bit gun liney.
I think chaos can really do some fun stuff. The more I think about it the more I lean towards chaos as my next army.. You got a lot of options: Abbadon/DP for re-rolls, lord discordant with forge fiends/decimators/dreads etc.. Throw in some DP/Sorcerer for psychic shenanighans and you can have some fun. New Oblitz are pretty sweet models to and you can DS them in to be a pain. Nice roster.
The marines seem to be a of hellblasters with banner one trick pony and seemed a bit lacklustre. However centurions and aggressors are also cool and cool models.
Also a fan of necrons. Immortals + destroyers & wraith with some bikes appeals to me. Not exactly a static gunline but more like a slowly advancing wall of death... Whats not to like! .
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/25 01:35:20
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
The above poster is correct. Try to take care of your important stuff with armies like tau. Hiding your marker lights by using characters mostly that utilize marker lights to taking care of your fire warriors and using them effectively.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/25 03:10:52
Mmmpi wrote: My primary argument is that you're trying to dictate someone else's playstyle based on your homegrown scrub rules, and that playing a gunline is far different from ignoring the social contract.
Since when did "both players should be having fun" become scrub rules, especially in a thread where the OP asked for a list that would be fun?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks.
Please don't move the goalposts. Being killed by lasguns is not the issue. Lasguns can be used by mobile units that create an interactive game that is fun for both players. The issue is not shooting-focused lists, it's gunlines that castle up in the back corner and ignore 90% of the game so they can mindlessly roll shooting dice until someone wins.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/25 03:11:08
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Mmmpi wrote: My primary argument is that you're trying to dictate someone else's playstyle based on your homegrown scrub rules, and that playing a gunline is far different from ignoring the social contract.
Since when did "both players should be having fun" become scrub rules, especially in a thread where the OP asked for a list that would be fun?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks.
Please don't move the goalposts. Being killed by lasguns is not the issue. Lasguns can be used by mobile units that create an interactive game that is fun for both players. The issue is not shooting-focused lists, it's gunlines that castle up in the back corner and ignore 90% of the game so they can mindlessly roll shooting dice until someone wins.
Peregrine - You play guard don't you, care to post a guard list you normally use? I want to see how non-gunline it is. I genuinely see IG as the very definition of 'gunline army'. If someone asked me what "static gunline" means I would point at IG/tau and say: 'these guys' and make them watch a bat rep. I define that as - Doesn't like to move, lots of big guns and rolls lots of dice in the shooting phase and is not active/good in the remaining phases.
I am actually really curious how you've managed to have success with guard army and not be a static gunline and see how fun it looks to play against.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/25 03:26:47
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: Peregrine - You play guard don't you, care to post a guard list you normally use?
I don't feel like typing up a whole list, but as a rough picture it would be a core of Tallarn tank commanders (with the JSJ order for extra mobility) supported by DKoK engineers with Hades drills, plasma grenadiers (usually with transports), various aircraft, and soon a squad or two of death riders. Sure, I'll often also have an artillery tank or three sitting in the back but the majority of the army is expecting to move around the table to claim objectives and set up better shots.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
OK, folks, back on track, please. The topic was specifically asking for lists. Feel free to discuss the merits or lack thereof of gunlines vs other playstyles elsewhere, and leave the pot-stirring at home.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm one of the most experienced players in my group and it's easy to write lists or play the game in such a way that stomps the newer guys who just started playing when 8th brought them back. If I feel like a list it too "hard" I'll tone it back (incidentally I generally try to write lists that will be fun to put on the board, from both perspectives without being a walkover). If I feel like my opponent isn't having fun I'll change how I'm playing to give him opportunities to make a comeback.
I won't rewrite a list, but I will make deliberate accidents. "Oh Man, I forgot about that unit in the corner for the past three turns. Oh well they couldn't have done very much (sitting next to buy not capturing 2 objective markers)." I know what would have happened if I'd "remembered" it. Chances are they know what would have happened, but there's no need to rub their nose in it like a puppy that peed on the carpet. Sometimes it's not even something they did wrong, just the luck of the dice, and that's doubly not worth grinding it in on them. There, but for the grace of God, go I.
As for asking for lists, I asked him what he thought a gun line castle was and does. Those are things everyone kind of agrees on, but not exactly. Does a castle move? High or low model count? There's a basic flaw in the question - the subjectivity of the words fun, gun line, and castle. Are/Can we use literal castles like the Forgeworld Realm of Battle Space Marine Castellum tile or mutliple Bastions and bunkers? Or does it have to be mobile with Land Raiders and Repulsors? Does it have to be a horde like orks? Can/Should it use supporting Psykers or skip the psychic phase entirely?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/25 04:56:07
Mmmpi wrote: My primary argument is that you're trying to dictate someone else's playstyle based on your homegrown scrub rules, and that playing a gunline is far different from ignoring the social contract.
Since when did "both players should be having fun" become scrub rules, especially in a thread where the OP asked for a list that would be fun?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks.
Please don't move the goalposts. Being killed by lasguns is not the issue. Lasguns can be used by mobile units that create an interactive game that is fun for both players. The issue is not shooting-focused lists, it's gunlines that castle up in the back corner and ignore 90% of the game so they can mindlessly roll shooting dice until someone wins.
Peregrine - You play guard don't you, care to post a guard list you normally use?
I want to see how non-gunline it is.
I genuinely see IG as the very definition of 'gunline army'.
If someone asked me what "static gunline" means I would point at IG/tau and say: 'these guys' and make them watch a bat rep.
I define that as - Doesn't like to move, lots of big guns and rolls lots of dice in the shooting phase and is not active/good in the remaining phases.
I am actually really curious how you've managed to have success with guard army and not be a static gunline and see how fun it looks to play against.
IG and Tau can both make very mobile lists. Scions deep striking in everywhere, chimeras delivering vets and bullgryns etc. Static gun lines are just no brainer poiny and click lists so people tend to default to that style.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/25 09:57:42
Go and try an ork gunline there are quite alot of random elemets if you don't go too competetive, so not every game will feel the same.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/25 10:21:30
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
Peregrine - You play guard don't you, care to post a guard list you normally use?
I want to see how non-gunline it is.
I genuinely see IG as the very definition of 'gunline army'.
If someone asked me what "static gunline" means I would point at IG/tau and say: 'these guys' and make them watch a bat rep.
I think IG *can* be a gunline army but it doesn't *need* to be.
If you play Cadia and fill your list with artillery, sure, you'll probably end up with a gunline.
However, there are many other ways to play IG:
- Scions for backfield deep-strikes close to or behind enemy lines.
- Tallarn infantry with few or no heavy weapons that end up being almost as fast as Eldar.
- Tallarn tanks/Sentinels/transports are all very mobile.
- Armageddon transport-based lists.
- Catachan melee or semi-melee lists.
etc.
Put simply, whilst IG can form the quintessential gunline, they are in no way limited to playing that way.
I run my Death Korps as a partial-gunline. I've caught a couple of players by surprise when it doesn't play the way they expect.
The list has four components:
-Infantry, to advance and seize objectives, and interdict enemy units
-Heavy weapon teams and artillery, to stay static and provide fire
-Mobile elements (Centaur w/ Grenadiers, Death Riders) to put pressure where unexpected
-Dirty tricks (Cyclops, Hades w/ Engineers) to do heavy damage and then die gloriously
The core third of the army (by points) stays static, but the rest is either on the move or coming in via abnormal deployment method. You can make a gunline interesting, it just has to have elements other than the gunline.
Mmmpi wrote: My primary argument is that you're trying to dictate someone else's playstyle based on your homegrown scrub rules, and that playing a gunline is far different from ignoring the social contract.
Since when did "both players should be having fun" become scrub rules, especially in a thread where the OP asked for a list that would be fun?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks.
Please don't move the goalposts. Being killed by lasguns is not the issue. Lasguns can be used by mobile units that create an interactive game that is fun for both players. The issue is not shooting-focused lists, it's gunlines that castle up in the back corner and ignore 90% of the game so they can mindlessly roll shooting dice until someone wins.
Peregrine - You play guard don't you, care to post a guard list you normally use? I want to see how non-gunline it is. I genuinely see IG as the very definition of 'gunline army'. If someone asked me what "static gunline" means I would point at IG/tau and say: 'these guys' and make them watch a bat rep. I define that as - Doesn't like to move, lots of big guns and rolls lots of dice in the shooting phase and is not active/good in the remaining phases.
I am actually really curious how you've managed to have success with guard army and not be a static gunline and see how fun it looks to play against.
IG and Tau can both make very mobile lists. Scions deep striking in everywhere, chimeras delivering vets and bullgryns etc. Static gun lines are just no brainer poiny and click lists so people tend to default to that style.
Ok... keyword is 'can'. Both of these armies have very heavy gun line elements at their disposal and excel at the role. That is a fact (compared to say khorne/DE). Wether or not individuals choose to play their army that way or not is obviously up to them. Of course I'm not saying the entire army of a given faction HAS to be run as a gunline. However It's usually considered at its optimal with a gunline leaning composition taking up a big chunk of the points...
The point I'm trying to make is that no army stands still shoots and doesn't move at all and wins. Some armies naturally lean towards investing in a solid heavy gun back-line which is 'static' as that is their strong point I.E. "Big powerful guns lots of shots and point efficient". The ratio varies from player to player but this element is present in nearly all armies ESEPCIALY IG & TAU. Cmon man you going to tell me that tank commanders/Weapons teams/artilery etc. Doesn't constitute a heavy gunline element with supporting/screening infantry? Ok...
In a game of scoring and holding objectives you just cannot sit still, roll to shoot and do nothing else. Thats just a falacy... Unless someones not playing to win of course and just wants a tabling. In which case it doesn't matter if you get tabled by a gunline because you are going to be wining the points game and isin't that the objective? Especially if you play with a suitable amount of terrain. So I really don't get what the issue is that is causing people to be so obnoxiously toxic... Models not moving and shooting is part of the game. Some armies do it in bigger proportions to other armies.
Anyway. As the OP asked for a list, I have come up with this on my first try. My armies are usualy a bit more mobile and have wraith CC elemnts and I don't think CWE do particularly well at being static. therefore I don't think you'd win very many games but I think this might be a bit of fun to play.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Eldar- 4436 pts
there are quite alot of random elemets if you don't go too competetive, so not every game will feel the same.