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Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Maybe Apocalypse will take off as the public face of GW tournament games.
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




 Peregrine wrote:
Those are great things, if you assume that the market is non-competitive players and ignore the fact that these people are targeting a competitive audience that cares more about math than fancy character names. The real issues with 40k content being profitable have nothing to do with competitive vs. non-competitive preferences:

1) A game takes way too long. When a single game takes 2-3 hours you're going to really struggle to find anyone willing to sit down and commit to watching it. There's no short-format option where you can have a 15-30 minute broadcast and still have people get something out of it. This alone rules out everyone but the most dedicated fans as a potential audience and guarantees a lack of funding.

2) There's too much free content already available. What exactly is a "professional" content creator going to do that isn't already out there for free? How are they going to convince people to hand over their wallets? How do you deal with the fact that GW treats their content as advertising for the game and eagerly gives it away for free in an attempt to convince people to buy the real product? How do you compete with the people who have conventional jobs, can afford to treat 40k as a hobby, and give away free content because they don't care enough to try to monetize it?


I mean, the GSL (Global StarCraft League) already answers your questions.

1. One night of GSL competitions generally lasts about 3 hours. They do player interviews, post stats, e.t.c.

2. GSL hosts it's videos for free and survives the same way other major internet sources do: advertisement dollars. In case you're curious, you can see it right here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcb8c_pRas4

You've absolutely got to attract people, but there's no question 40k is trying to go this way. It's a lot similar to StarCraft: BroodWar's Western scene in the early 1990's/early 2000's. Probably will take the same amount of time to develop too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 13:01:33


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:
 auticus wrote:
I think its inevitable that it will happen. The competitive direction has exploded over the past decade and its only getting bigger.


I doubt it. The current state of competitive play is nowhere near enough to finance professional play, where professional play means making a salary of $50-75k a year minimum and not just making enough to fund your 40k hobby while living in your parents' basement. Even if you assume the best players will play in a tournament every week and win all of them you'd have to have multiple weekly events with cash prizes of $1500-2000 or more (remember, you have to pay your salary after covering hotel/travel/etc). Make more realistic assumptions about travel ability and how often "professional" players will win and you're looking at more like $10,000 or more as the minimum tournament prizes required. Right now we're still at the point where $100 store credit and a box of space marines is a pretty good prize.


Why do people keep insisting that you only actually ever make money off of prize pools. No competitive enterprise works like this. Not a single one. It's dumb, and you say it out of extreme ignorance or just a need to sneer at 'basement dwelling' neckbeards because the idea of people not like you being successful is simply the worst. Only people exactly like you in every way are allowed success right?
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





Nurglitch wrote:
Maybe Apocalypse will take off as the public face of GW tournament games.


yes because a spectacle game with even wobblier rules is clearly whats needed

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I'm not sure if we know the rules are 'wobblier' and they seem to be modeled after Epic Armageddon rules which are fantastic.
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

You have to give the ITC crew a lot of credit for figuring out how to market, package and monetize 40K tournaments. They've taken it remarkably far.

However, I find it hard to believe that anyone with a brain could think that 40K has big-time e-sport potential. Perhaps a different game from a GW with a different mindset and approach. Not 40K, and not this GW.

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 gorgon wrote:
You have to give the ITC crew a lot of credit for figuring out how to market, package and monetize 40K tournaments. They've taken it remarkably far.

However, I find it hard to believe that anyone with a brain could think that 40K has big-time e-sport potential. Perhaps a different game from a GW with a different mindset and approach. Not 40K, and not this GW.


GW certainly wants to try, but I think it's important to remember that esports as we know them today were built without developer participation. StarCraft: Broodwar basically created the entire backbone of modern day esports and Blizzard was totally absent until after it took off. Nowadays, developers are active hands, but it wasn't necessary in the beginning. All you need are people who really want to play the game and a larger amount of people who want to watch it.

Which is honestly the big hurdle of any boardgame. It's very static. It's not dynamic. Models just sit there. Shooting/fighting is imagined. Esports offer a graphical spectacle. It remains to be seen how big viewer demand will be without that.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Those are great things, if you assume that the market is non-competitive players and ignore the fact that these people are targeting a competitive audience that cares more about math than fancy character names. The real issues with 40k content being profitable have nothing to do with competitive vs. non-competitive preferences:

1) A game takes way too long. When a single game takes 2-3 hours you're going to really struggle to find anyone willing to sit down and commit to watching it. There's no short-format option where you can have a 15-30 minute broadcast and still have people get something out of it. This alone rules out everyone but the most dedicated fans as a potential audience and guarantees a lack of funding.

2) There's too much free content already available. What exactly is a "professional" content creator going to do that isn't already out there for free? How are they going to convince people to hand over their wallets? How do you deal with the fact that GW treats their content as advertising for the game and eagerly gives it away for free in an attempt to convince people to buy the real product? How do you compete with the people who have conventional jobs, can afford to treat 40k as a hobby, and give away free content because they don't care enough to try to monetize it?


I mean, the GSL (Global StarCraft League) already answers your questions.

1. One night of GSL competitions generally lasts about 3 hours. They do player interviews, post stats, e.t.c.

2. GSL hosts it's videos for free and survives the same way other major internet sources do: advertisement dollars. In case you're curious, you can see it right here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcb8c_pRas4

You've absolutely got to attract people, but there's no question 40k is trying to go this way. It's a lot similar to StarCraft: BroodWar's Western scene in the early 1990's/early 2000's. Probably will take the same amount of time to develop too.


I think the difference here is that an entire night of competition encompasses multiple games in that same time period. 40k's big problem is that in that same 3 hour period they've played a single game and that's it. I agree that player interviews, stat analysis and other supplemental activities can help enhance the experience for the viewer, but when the thing you're using to draw people in is 3 hours long without any of that other stuff you have problems.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Slipspace wrote:

That lack of detail on stream is a problem, IMO. I don't think the overhead view works very well at all because it often makes it almost impossible to actually tell what you're looking at. At times you can't even tell where infantry-sized models are from that sort of view. Something that highlights unit positions in an overhead view would be good and this is the sort of thing I mean when I say there needs to be more work put into the streaming side of 40k if it's going to get more popular. Even the commentators often seem confused about what's happening because identifying units on the stream is such a problem.


Production values are the big thing. Multiple camera angles and commentators can fill a lot of the void but take a lot more work.

In terms of making money off of it, it just needs to be popular enough to get advertiser interests. Marketing will put in ridiculous sums of money if the viewership is high enough to warrant it and often that's also where the extravagant prizes come from as well (big stakes tourney draws a lot of viewers). I don't find this a particularly desirable way forward, but I don't really resent it either. Like any professional sports angle, it would be fun to watch even if its not a great representation of local play.

Warmachine saw some pretty fantastic productions at some major events but never quite cracked into sponsorship levels of attention. 40k's larger base demographic could perhaps pull it off, but someone has to lose some money showing off what can be done first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:

I think the difference here is that an entire night of competition encompasses multiple games in that same time period. 40k's big problem is that in that same 3 hour period they've played a single game and that's it. I agree that player interviews, stat analysis and other supplemental activities can help enhance the experience for the viewer, but when the thing you're using to draw people in is 3 hours long without any of that other stuff you have problems.


One of the better tricks I've seen is focusing on team tournaments so the viewer can focus on the team vs team aspect a little more. This lets the producer cut to different games on the fly to keep things interesting over the 3 hour period.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 14:27:04


 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




Slipspace wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Those are great things, if you assume that the market is non-competitive players and ignore the fact that these people are targeting a competitive audience that cares more about math than fancy character names. The real issues with 40k content being profitable have nothing to do with competitive vs. non-competitive preferences:

1) A game takes way too long. When a single game takes 2-3 hours you're going to really struggle to find anyone willing to sit down and commit to watching it. There's no short-format option where you can have a 15-30 minute broadcast and still have people get something out of it. This alone rules out everyone but the most dedicated fans as a potential audience and guarantees a lack of funding.

2) There's too much free content already available. What exactly is a "professional" content creator going to do that isn't already out there for free? How are they going to convince people to hand over their wallets? How do you deal with the fact that GW treats their content as advertising for the game and eagerly gives it away for free in an attempt to convince people to buy the real product? How do you compete with the people who have conventional jobs, can afford to treat 40k as a hobby, and give away free content because they don't care enough to try to monetize it?


I mean, the GSL (Global StarCraft League) already answers your questions.

1. One night of GSL competitions generally lasts about 3 hours. They do player interviews, post stats, e.t.c.

2. GSL hosts it's videos for free and survives the same way other major internet sources do: advertisement dollars. In case you're curious, you can see it right here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcb8c_pRas4

You've absolutely got to attract people, but there's no question 40k is trying to go this way. It's a lot similar to StarCraft: BroodWar's Western scene in the early 1990's/early 2000's. Probably will take the same amount of time to develop too.


I think the difference here is that an entire night of competition encompasses multiple games in that same time period. 40k's big problem is that in that same 3 hour period they've played a single game and that's it. I agree that player interviews, stat analysis and other supplemental activities can help enhance the experience for the viewer, but when the thing you're using to draw people in is 3 hours long without any of that other stuff you have problems.


I think that's just going to attract different audiences rather than prevent an audience at all. One baseball or one football game is quite long too, but you still get tons of viewers for that single game.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Length of game isn't the issue moreso as not much happening on the table is the issue.

Watching two guys stand there staring at the table for minutes at a time is not a fun thing to watch.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





Nurglitch wrote:
I'm not sure if we know the rules are 'wobblier' and they seem to be modeled after Epic Armageddon rules which are fantastic.


and dont forgot the fun of swingy 'make loads more dakka cos reasons' fun of the command cards

which doesnt matter at all for an all-day all the mini's what you done own throw down with likeminded sorts but as something anybody would want to watch, naahhh

*also if anyone can explain the point of the Eldar scatter laser over any other weapon in Apoc that would help (shock horror GW naysayer reads GW rules )

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 14:45:45


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
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Steelcity

 auticus wrote:
Length of game isn't the issue moreso as not much happening on the table is the issue.

Watching two guys stand there staring at the table for minutes at a time is not a fun thing to watch.


Agreed, there are few things more boring than watching a table top game on a live stream. The decent streams have commentary, lore discussion, fan interaction, reviews, pictures.. literally anything to distract from the fact that models haven’t moved in 20 minutes.

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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 gorgon wrote:
You have to give the ITC crew a lot of credit for figuring out how to market, package and monetize 40K tournaments. They've taken it remarkably far.

However, I find it hard to believe that anyone with a brain could think that 40K has big-time e-sport potential. Perhaps a different game from a GW with a different mindset and approach. Not 40K, and not this GW.


Why not this GW?

GW has produced plenty of games that check all the theoretical boxes for an e-sport style approach to miniature gaming (e.g. Underworlds, Kill Team Arena).

Just because they also make a game like 40K that has a completely different design aim compared to what competitive and/or e-sport games would be looking for shouldnt really change that.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 15:18:06


 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
I'm not sure if we know the rules are 'wobblier' and they seem to be modeled after Epic Armageddon rules which are fantastic.


and dont forgot the fun of swingy 'make loads more dakka cos reasons' fun of the command cards

which doesnt matter at all for an all-day all the mini's what you done own throw down with likeminded sorts but as something anybody would want to watch, naahhh

*also if anyone can explain the point of the Eldar scatter laser over any other weapon in Apoc that would help (shock horror GW naysayer reads GW rules )

If you say so.
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

 kodos wrote:
The tournament scene going crazy at the end of an edition is nothing new nor something to worry about.


Now we are at a point were the Edition is mostly done and we are just waiting for 9th to hit and shake the game up again bringing the competitive scene down (as everything is new and "balanced")

This is also usually the time when 40k competitive people find their way into Fantasy and start playing there.

Each edition of WH/AoS and 40k had the point were the other one was the better game but now AoS still get so much hate from people because of what was done that this option is not for the majority, so instead of switching and we get more hate towards the game than in the past.


I was not at all aware of that, ...

but if they make this dumpster fire of 8th into Apoc,
and make 9th into soft-core 2nd ed. with optional rules sets
with different rules for enhanced realism in terrain/cover,
weapons/targeting, armor/vehicles, psych dynamics/human element stuff,
and optional rules kits for tourney types all deck-buildy, card-gamey and gotcha proper MTG style,
all on its own,
then I would def be in for the original box plus the expansions esp if they came with cool terrain,
maybe rulebook covering vehicle expansions coming in select vehicle kits, and yada.... so down.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:
Spoiler:
Slipspace wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Those are great things, if you assume that the market is non-competitive players and ignore the fact that these people are targeting a competitive audience that cares more about math than fancy character names. The real issues with 40k content being profitable have nothing to do with competitive vs. non-competitive preferences:

1) A game takes way too long. When a single game takes 2-3 hours you're going to really struggle to find anyone willing to sit down and commit to watching it. There's no short-format option where you can have a 15-30 minute broadcast and still have people get something out of it. This alone rules out everyone but the most dedicated fans as a potential audience and guarantees a lack of funding.

2) There's too much free content already available. What exactly is a "professional" content creator going to do that isn't already out there for free? How are they going to convince people to hand over their wallets? How do you deal with the fact that GW treats their content as advertising for the game and eagerly gives it away for free in an attempt to convince people to buy the real product? How do you compete with the people who have conventional jobs, can afford to treat 40k as a hobby, and give away free content because they don't care enough to try to monetize it?


I mean, the GSL (Global StarCraft League) already answers your questions.

1. One night of GSL competitions generally lasts about 3 hours. They do player interviews, post stats, e.t.c.

2. GSL hosts it's videos for free and survives the same way other major internet sources do: advertisement dollars. In case you're curious, you can see it right here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcb8c_pRas4

You've absolutely got to attract people, but there's no question 40k is trying to go this way. It's a lot similar to StarCraft: BroodWar's Western scene in the early 1990's/early 2000's. Probably will take the same amount of time to develop too.


I think the difference here is that an entire night of competition encompasses multiple games in that same time period. 40k's big problem is that in that same 3 hour period they've played a single game and that's it. I agree that player interviews, stat analysis and other supplemental activities can help enhance the experience for the viewer, but when the thing you're using to draw people in is 3 hours long without any of that other stuff you have problems.


I think that's just going to attract different audiences rather than prevent an audience at all. One baseball or one football game is quite long too, but you still get tons of viewers for that single game.


I'm British so I couldn't possibly explain what people find so attractive about watching baseball either

Assuming by football you mean American Football (though this applies to soccer and other sports too), I think the difference is the possibility of something exciting happening is still there. You could be watching a dull, defensive game with no scoring but there's always the chance of an exciting scoring play from nothing, or the commentators can analyse why the defence of each team is on top, or analyse what the teams need to do to break the status quo. Some of these things are possible in 40k too, but I don't think the commentators are quite at that level yet and I think the game lacks the depth needed to allow for interesting analysis at that level in-game. I'm also not sure what the 40k equivalent of a 90-yard touchdown pass is, or a well-worked team goal in soccer, or a home run. Does it have that exciting moment that will get people out of their seats (figuratively speaking)? So much of high level tournament play is about stacking the odds in your favour with re-rolls and other buffs I'm not sure there's actually much scope for these sort of moments to occur. You also don't have that team association that keeps so many sports teams in business and keeps viewing figures high even through terrible game.

To highlight the problems of streamed tournament 40k, I remember watching a game at the most recent LVO. It had Grey Knights, run by a player who was apparently pretty good with them. I was intrigued so thought I'd check out the stream to see how he was ablet o be successful with them. I joined midway through turn 1. I had no idea what was happening. Nor did the commentators. I couldn't even figure out which side was which initially. Much of the commentary was along the lines of "is that a Strike Squad?", "where's Draigo?" etc. The "action" consisted of a whole bunch of watching the top of someone's head as they leaned over the table and carefully measured everything, then rolling a bucket of dice into a dice tray while the commentators attempted to figure out what was shooting at what. The psychic phase was a rapid-fire series of dice rolls, none of which were explained. The damage on various models wasn't tracked and the whole thing was basically a confusing mess. I don't blame the commentators for this. I think they actually did a pretty good job of keeping a conversation going and trying to keep up with the action, but it proved impossible. Some of these problems could be solved with improved production values and better preparation but some are intrinsic to the game. I managed to stick with the stream for about 15 minutes, then another 10 or so with it on in the background, but I eventually had to switch it off as it seemed rather pointless to try to continue.
   
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Southeastern PA, USA

Sunny Side Up wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
You have to give the ITC crew a lot of credit for figuring out how to market, package and monetize 40K tournaments. They've taken it remarkably far.

However, I find it hard to believe that anyone with a brain could think that 40K has big-time e-sport potential. Perhaps a different game from a GW with a different mindset and approach. Not 40K, and not this GW.


Why not this GW?

GW has produced plenty of games that check all the theoretical boxes for an e-sport style approach to miniature gaming (e.g. Underworlds, Kill Team Arena).

Just because they also make a game like 40K that has a completely different design aim compared to what competitive and/or e-sport games would be looking for shouldnt really change that.


It'd be Underworlds if it was anything, but this GW isn't about to start sponsoring a 'pro tour' with cash prizes.

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 gorgon wrote:
Perhaps a different game from a GW with a different mindset and approach. Not 40K, and not this GW.
I don't know. I think I'd probably watch a season of Necromunda. Get some high quality tables with close-to-the-action camera angles (sector mechanicus is a joy to look at with all the catwalks), follow the dramatic stories of different gangs as they grow, get injured, or die. But I'm not really a sports guy, so seeing two players trying to get points doesn't really do anything for me. Pageantry and drama is what works for me.

For the record, Corvus Belli has put together some really high production value battle reports with lots of overlays and info, dramatic camera angles, and even animations that really make them fun to watch. That's what needs to happen to make 40k a spectator sport, but putting out something of this quality during a live game would be a logistical challenge, to be sure.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Thanks for sharing those, I am looking at creating some cinematic reports and these are great ideas.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 gorgon wrote:


It'd be Underworlds if it was anything, but this GW isn't about to start sponsoring a 'pro tour' with cash prizes.


No, probably not.

But the question wasn´t about GW starting a pro tour, but Frontline Gaming or whoever wanting to start some pro tour / e-sports stuff. If they´d be serious about it, they should probably drop games like 40K and AoS which aren´t really meant for tournament / competitive stuff from the ITC, etc.. and focus on stuff like Underworlds, perhaps X-Wing, Infinity, etc..

It`s kinda stupid trying to shoehorn 40K into that, when that happens to arguably be the game in GW´s catalog least suited for that.
   
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Sure, I just don't see where the money is going to come from to support real payouts if it's not GW.

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It`s kinda stupid trying to shoehorn 40K into that, when that happens to arguably be the game in GW´s catalog least suited for that.


Its the massive player base.
   
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Sunny Side Up wrote:
 gorgon wrote:


It'd be Underworlds if it was anything, but this GW isn't about to start sponsoring a 'pro tour' with cash prizes.


No, probably not.

But the question wasn´t about GW starting a pro tour, but Frontline Gaming or whoever wanting to start some pro tour / e-sports stuff. If they´d be serious about it, they should probably drop games like 40K and AoS which aren´t really meant for tournament / competitive stuff from the ITC, etc.. and focus on stuff like Underworlds, perhaps X-Wing, Infinity, etc..

It`s kinda stupid trying to shoehorn 40K into that, when that happens to arguably be the game in GW´s catalog least suited for that.


A large chunk of competitive players really like the 40k lore and aesthetic. I play a ton of ITC tournaments, and I have no interest really in playing games other than 40k really... because I'm super invested in 40k through lore, video games, and lots of miniatures.
   
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Tampa, FL

 Horst wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
 gorgon wrote:


It'd be Underworlds if it was anything, but this GW isn't about to start sponsoring a 'pro tour' with cash prizes.


No, probably not.

But the question wasn´t about GW starting a pro tour, but Frontline Gaming or whoever wanting to start some pro tour / e-sports stuff. If they´d be serious about it, they should probably drop games like 40K and AoS which aren´t really meant for tournament / competitive stuff from the ITC, etc.. and focus on stuff like Underworlds, perhaps X-Wing, Infinity, etc..

It`s kinda stupid trying to shoehorn 40K into that, when that happens to arguably be the game in GW´s catalog least suited for that.


A large chunk of competitive players really like the 40k lore and aesthetic. I play a ton of ITC tournaments, and I have no interest really in playing games other than 40k really... because I'm super invested in 40k through lore, video games, and lots of miniatures.
That still doesn't change the fact that 40k is one of the worst games for serious competitive play due to how crazy the balance is. Used to be that comp players wanted to have balanced games and armies so they could show their mastery of the game in tactics, rather than in being able to stack combos better than their opponent.

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Hell will freeze over before I *pay* to watch miniatures, directly or indirectly. Dear god. I don't even watch free youtube video reports - made it through about 5 minutes of one once.
   
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Audustum wrote:
1. One night of GSL competitions generally lasts about 3 hours. They do player interviews, post stats, e.t.c.


Sure, but how many individual matches are you getting in that time? I bet the overall pace of play is much better and you're not slogging through 2-3 hours of tedious dice rolling for a single game.

2. GSL hosts it's videos for free and survives the same way other major internet sources do: advertisement dollars.


But who is going to advertise? GW (or whatever other company you might suggest) sure as hell isn't advertising, and why should they when anyone interested in watching a 40k e-sport thing is already a customer? Stores might do it, but how many of them are going to pay enough for the advertising slots that the e-sport company can afford to pay multiple players/video editors/etc $50-100k per year? I am extremely skeptical that miniatures gaming has enough money involved to come anywhere near the financial needs of that kind of project.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Wayniac wrote:


A large chunk of competitive players really like the 40k lore and aesthetic. I play a ton of ITC tournaments, and I have no interest really in playing games other than 40k really... because I'm super invested in 40k through lore, video games, and lots of miniatures.
That still doesn't change the fact that 40k is one of the worst games for serious competitive play due to how crazy the balance is. Used to be that comp players wanted to have balanced games and armies so they could show their mastery of the game in tactics, rather than in being able to stack combos better than their opponent.


Well, that´s because 40K isn´t meant for competitive play. That´s like saying VW Microbuses are the worst for competitive racing. That`s because they aren´t meant for that. They are built for surfers and hippies bumming on a beach, living off weed and having a vehicle to crash in.

If you wanna play competitive .... don´t play Warhammer 40K. Simple enough. Used to be, don`t play Games Workshop games, but at least Games Workshop tried to make games that cater to the competitive scene, e.g. Underworlds or Kill Team Arena. But Warhammer 40K isn´t one of those games.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/12 05:11:42


 
   
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See, here's the thing. Lots of people have previously and currently do play 40k competitively, AND have fun with it. Lecturing them on how they're doing it wrong and having wrongbadfun helps no one, and makes the people doing the lecturing seem like jerks.

'Why the hate?' circles back around quickly as to why actual people in this thread are insisting other people not have fun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/12 10:48:05


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Its a two way street that feeds itself. Much like politics and the two party system where each party blames the other for all the problems while at the same time disparaging them and feeding the fire.
   
 
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