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Building a Techmarine on Bike for my Ravenwing force. Its gonna be a black Ravenwing bike and red power armor for the marine but I'm trying to decide if the right shoulder pad should be green with a DA symbol or black with a Ravenwing symbol.

Same question hangs over Libriarians, Chaplains and Apothecarys.

it could be argued that these are specialised brothers loaned/assigned to the ravenwing and would bear DA symbols or that they are actually members of the Ravenwing and would carry Ravenwing insignia

What are peoples thoughts on this?

On the fluff side, Ravenwing are inducted at least partially into the secrets of the chapter, while techmarines are definitely.not because of their partial fealty to Mars and the Mechanicum. I'd say make techmarines green and red, even if they are on a bike.

Librarians and interrogator-chaplains are already inducted so could be either.

The Ravenwing Techmarine in the studio army was black armour on black bike with Ravenwing left shoulder and red Mechanicus right shoulder.

Flinty wrote:On the fluff side, Ravenwing are inducted at least partially into the secrets of the chapter, while techmarines are definitely.not because of their partial fealty to Mars and the Mechanicum. I'd say make techmarines green and red, even if they are on a bike.

Librarians and interrogator-chaplains are already inducted so could be either.

thats an interesting take on it. i would assume apothecarys would be similar to techmarines?

Lord Damocles wrote:The Ravenwing Techmarine in the studio army was black armour on black bike with Ravenwing left shoulder and red Mechanicus right shoulder.

sounds cool, any pics online?

Interesting point on apothecaries. I'm not aware of their position secretwise in the fluff. I can see them being also trained by admech genetor types and therefore might need to be kept in the dark. Alternatively maybe the Apothecarium retains all the knowledge the chapter really needs after being set up. Not like marines and the injuries they can take will particularly change. So therefore no admech involvement and secrets galore.

gaza4 wrote:

Flinty wrote:On the fluff side, Ravenwing are inducted at least partially into the secrets of the chapter, while techmarines are definitely.not because of their partial fealty to Mars and the Mechanicum. I'd say make techmarines green and red, even if they are on a bike.

Librarians and interrogator-chaplains are already inducted so could be either.

thats an interesting take on it. i would assume apothecarys would be similar to techmarines?

proably not, TechMarines are treated differntly due to politics. They're taken to Mars and inducted into the faith of Mars etc, so the Dark Angels fear Techmarines may have divided loyalties.

gaza4 wrote:

Flinty wrote:On the fluff side, Ravenwing are inducted at least partially into the secrets of the chapter, while techmarines are definitely.not because of their partial fealty to Mars and the Mechanicum. I'd say make techmarines green and red, even if they are on a bike.

Librarians and interrogator-chaplains are already inducted so could be either.

thats an interesting take on it. i would assume apothecarys would be similar to techmarines?

Lord Damocles wrote:The Ravenwing Techmarine in the studio army was black armour on black bike with Ravenwing left shoulder and red Mechanicus right shoulder.

sounds cool, any pics online?

Librarians and Interrogator Chapters are already in the Inner Circle/Deathwing, even beyond the Ravenwing. But like Azrael usually have green pauldrons.

Apothecaries don't have a dual loyalty like the Techmarines do. Probably the only Techmarine the DA have who gets to know secrets is one who can't do anything with them - their Master of the Forge- who gets to be biggest Dreadnought you ever saw. As soon as he gets promoted he gets hardwired into The Rock, never to be seen again.

Apothecaries are likely as inducted as the company they come from. The Deathwing Apothecary probably knows all and does the medical treatment/observation of the fallen during "interrogation" until they repent. The Ravenwing Apothecary knows some. The 3rd company Apothecary knows little.

Breton wrote:
Librarians and Interrogator Chapters are already in the Inner Circle/Deathwing, even beyond the Ravenwing. But like Azrael usually have green pauldrons.

Apothecaries don't have a dual loyalty like the Techmarines do. Probably the only Techmarine the DA have who gets to know secrets is one who can't do anything with them - their Master of the Forge- who gets to be biggest Dreadnought you ever saw. As soon as he gets promoted he gets hardwired into The Rock, never to be seen again.

Apothecaries are likely as inducted as the company they come from. The Deathwing Apothecary probably knows all and does the medical treatment/observation of the fallen during "interrogation" until they repent. The Ravenwing Apothecary knows some. The 3rd company Apothecary knows little.

ok so that makes it clear, chaplains and librarians bear the green DA left shoulder pad

i never knew that about the DA Master of the Forge (called Master of the Rock apparently) and according to the codex they are never inducted into the Deathwing because of their dual allegiances like all techmarines. So thats probly enough to say green left shoulder

so that just leaves the apothecary, would you give them a Ravenwing or Dark Angels left pauldron?

if chaplains and librarians use green, I'd guess so would apocatharies

The Apothecary in the Ravenwing Command Squad has standard Ravenwing heraldry.

Studio Techmarine:

Yeah, I think the Apothecarions are company level, while the Librarius and Reclusiam are on the Chapter level of the Org Charts (most of the time, the one I just looked at has it on it's own)

Lord Damocles wrote:The Apothecary in the Ravenwing Command Squad has standard Ravenwing heraldry.

Studio Techmarine:

yeah i've seen that apothecary online, i dunno if the apothecary would be ravenwing, depends on when they are initiated in the apothecarion i guess

that studio techmarine is a little less impressive than i had imagined

Breton wrote:Yeah, I think the Apothecarions are company level, while the Librarius and Reclusiam are on the Chapter level of the Org Charts (most of the time, the one I just looked at has it on it's own)

the chapter organisation chart in the DA codex lists the reclusiam, librarius, armoury and apothecarion seperate to each of the 10 companies so this is leaning me towards all having green DA pauldrons

sorry its a small image!!!

I went with red-trimmed green pad for mine, with a gold and black on opposite side, denoting all his allegiances.

Video/GIF: https://i.imgur.com/YrOWP2J.gifv

Techmarine wouldn't have any Ravenwing symbols IMHO, so just red armour and green pauldron. Librarian in similar boat but with blue armour (however, I did give mine a RW pauldron which would be incorrect). I'm not at all convinced about apothecary though, I could see one being permanently attached to the Ravenwing (being part of the old Command sqd) and have given mine a ravenwing pauldron with white armour. Chaplain would be Ravenwing (not Interrogators though).

 bullyboy wrote:
Techmarine wouldn't have any Ravenwing symbols IMHO, so just red armour and green pauldron. Librarian in similar boat but with blue armour (however, I did give mine a RW pauldron which would be incorrect). I'm not at all convinced about apothecary though, I could see one being permanently attached to the Ravenwing (being part of the old Command sqd) and have given mine a ravenwing pauldron with white armour. Chaplain would be Ravenwing (not Interrogators though).

The Deathwing Apothecary from the Deathwing Command Squad had the Deathwing special rule, likewise the Ravenwing Apothecary from the Ravenwing Command Squad using the Ravenwing special rule when Inner Circle was split between the two special rules. The current Death/Raven Wing apothecaries have the Inner Circle rule, while the Primaris/Green Wing apothecaries do not. This doesn't really solve the Green/White/Black shoulder pads of course - because Azrael is Green, Belial is white, and Sammael is Black and they all three have the inner circle. But it does strongly suggest the apothecaries are company based and have to be inducted into the correct circle to apothecary for the correct company. Whether that means they're company level and use company heraldry like Belial/Sammael, or Chapter level and use Chapter heraldy like Azrael is still up for debate, and most likely a personal choice with no wrong answer. Especially in a discussion that could be easily narrated away in a "He's the FNG, and hasn't repainted all of his armor yet" rationalization.

In previous editions there were theoretically even two (or more) apothecaries per company as the Demi-Companies were led by a Captain and a Chaplain who each had their own potential command squad with its member Apothecary. If the Master has a black pauldron, and his Apothecary has a black pauldron, would the Chaplain have a green pauldron, and his apothecary have a green pauldron from his time in the Reclusiam Command Squad from an even more previous edition?

As the Reclusiam (which assigns one Chaplain per company) and the Apothecarion (which theoretically assigns at least two plus extras for Libraians with a command squad which used to be a thing. I think.) are both listed on the Chapter level, but serve on the Company level, I'd do the same thing for both. Whatever you do for a chaplain, do the for the apothecary or vice versa. The Techmarine I'd give a green pad. Red or Black armor - sounds like a personal preference. Is the Techmarine permanently assigned, or TAD? Will the Techmarine's bike be red or black? It probably should be black, but one could make a somewhat mutually exclusive case for both Red, and Green that I'd like and nod at. To make it red - the DA don't have Green bikes (for marines), and he's not accepted among the Ravenwing, so he painted his bike Mars Red where people like him. Green - He's not accepted among the Ravenwing, but he's still a Dark Angel so he painted his bike green.

One of the things I've been dancing around here, as well is that the color schemes change. I still have two tactical squads and a Devastator squad of Ultramarines with red bolters and heavy weapons because a long long time ago, I can still remember how the music used to make me sm... Oh sorry, Don McLean flashback of how old I am. Way back in 2nd ed Ultramarine weapons were red, not black. Chaplains weren't, then were, then weren't again part of the company command structure, and now may or may not be. Things change, follow most of the standards- Ravenwing is black, Deathwing is bone, X company has Y color rims on their pauldrons. For the rest pick what you like and keep it consistent.

My understanding is that each Company has at least one permanently assigned Apothecary, and one assigned Chaplain, both of which are part of the Company in all respects. The extra Chaplains and Apothecaries attached to the Chapter HQ are supernumary to requirements and operate as a reserve of each, as well as having non-combat duties.

Therefore, one Chaplain and at least one Apothecary should be in Ravenwing colours and heraldry.

For other characters, I think it will likely depend on how much time they personally spend with the Ravenwing. A Librarian or Interrogator Chaplain who spends several campaigns hunting the Fallen could maybe be made an honoury member and adopt their heraldry in some way, I would think. Same with the Deathwing. This is all conjecture.

The Techmarine is a much more challenging character, because of the dual allegiances. However, the Ravenwing uses a bunch of extremely rare, archaic weapons systems that will require a great deal of tech support (rare plasma weapons, stasis weapons, unusual flyers, the Land speeder variants, a jetbike), so they will need much more support than a typical Marine company. In addition, I think it is unlikely that a Techmarine tending the Ravenwing's gear would fail to notice the preponderance of equipment aimed at capturing and storing... something. Therefore, I think it is highly likely that the Ravenwing would maintain a Techmarine or small cadre of Techmarines specifically earmarked for maintaining the 2nd Company technology, which are perhaps initiated into the secrets of the Dark Angels a little more than their other brethren in the Armoury. Just enough to not be suspicious of all the stasis tech and prison cells and what not the Ravenwing use.

In that context, a Techmarine using Ravenwing iconography would make some sense.