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The Vyper needs to get fixed. You are limited by the dumb Shuriken cannon only for the under hull weapon so max 24” and then your turret is a 36” brightlance. So you can’t really kite that great because then you can’t use half your firepower. Then for durability you are just better off having a wave serpent with twin brightlance because it’s so much tougher. So what’s the solution for the Vyper? Drop the points a little to make it competitive with the wave serpent shot for shot. Give it an invuln if it moves it’s max distance or something? Any special rule ideas. Super cool model that no one uses

I'm not super familiar with Eldar, but generally speaking a points adjustment is often the easiest way to balance a model.

Question: is the Brightlance a Heavy or an Assault weapon?

Maybe a special rule could be when the model advances it gains +1 to it's armour save, or gains a 5++ save until the its next movement phase? Basically balancing the -1 for firing its Assault weapons at high speed with better survivability.

Bright lance is heavy. Shuriken cannon is also heavy. But the problem is you can’t go double brightlance. You’re always forced to be within 24” no matter what. The bottom gun you should be able to take anything Also a 5+ invuln would keep it from getting vaporized so easily by heavy weapons. Or a -1 to hit


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Every other heavy jetbike from harlequin and dark Eldar has a 4+ invuln

I thought the Shuriken cannon was Assault 3 - my mistake.

Perhaps a 4++ when the unit advances then. and a rule that when the model advances it can fire heavy weapons as if it hasn't advanced?

As for the range of the weapons, not sure what the best solution is, but with the 4++ perhaps it will be survivable enough not to need to stay at extreme range?

I’m sorry you’re right I think it is assault 3. Saim hann has a special rule that they can move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty The real issue is the getting stuck with the Shuriken cannon no matter what which means you are paying 75points essentially for a bright lance that cant kite because it has to get within 24” to shoot the Shuriken cannon. It needs a point drop to make its 1 bright lance worth of firepower cheaper compared to a much tougher wave serpent with double bright lance for about the same price as two voters. But the wave serpent is vastly more survivable.

So some options are. Just give it a 4+ invuln if it moves it’s full 16 or something
Let it take double heavy weapons.
Or drop the points maybe 15points for the base hull. Because they do die easily once they get close enough to eat plasma or any other anti tank stuff. That lack of invuln makes them very easy to pop with one lascannon or a couple plasma shots.

Shuricannon is *NOT* heavy. It's Assault.

If you want double lances, go with a War Walker.

Honestly, they're fine durability wise. Or rather, they are FAR more durable in 8E than they've even been.

Just compare 3 Shuricannon Vypers to 6 Shuricannon Windriders (same # of guns). The Vypers are T5 with a 3+ amour and have 1/3 more wounds than the Windriders.
Granted Windriders are far too squishy, but the point is that Vypers are plenty durable.
What they need is a points drop to make them a cheaper alternative to War Walkers

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The point is the Vyper is useless. Why does a slow ass war walker get 5+ invuln and my Vyper doesn’t? I play a saim hann wild rider army and my Vyper are a penalty for me to take because they aren’t worth the points. They need to be worth taking




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 Galef wrote:
Honestly, they're fine durability wise. Or rather, they are FAR more durable in 8E than they've even been.

Just compare 3 Shuricannon Vypers to 6 Shuricannon Windriders (same # of guns). The Vypers are T5 with a 3+ amour and has 1/3 more wounds than the Windriders.
Granted Windriders are far to squishy, but the point is that Vypers are plenty durable.
What they need is a points drop to make them a cheaper alternative to War Walkers

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They need a small price drop or they need a 5+ like a war walker

If it didn't make the Saim-Hann trait pointless, I'd say a great option for Vypers would be to replace their silly 20" Move for units of 3 rule and give them the ability to move a shoot Heavy weapons without Penalty.
I'm genuinely surprised more Eldar units do not have this. Heck even vehicle mounted Dark Lances become Assault weapons.

The Vyper is the ideal candidate for a rule like this. The gunner is in a cradle that looks like it could be "absorb and adjust" to any movements the pilot would do. It would also set Vypers apart from War Walkers, who, lets not forget have a worse Armour save than Vypers, tot he point that only AP-3 weapons are "better" against Vypers then WWs. AP-2 Weapons are the same and Vypers are actually more durable against AP-0 or AP-1 weapons than WWs.
If Vypers treated all Heavy Weapons as Assault, you'd certainly see them more.

But again, we'd have to adjust the Saim-Hann trait to do something else for BIKES. Maybe with this change, Saim-Hann could give +2" to all BIKE units in addition to the reroll charges to all units?
Or even better, SAIM-HANN BIKES are -1 to be hit if they Advanced (like Vectored Engines, but for BIKES). So a Saim-Hann Vyper with my suggestion could move 18" and shoot a Bright lance with no penalty, or even Advance with -1 to hit and -1 to be hit

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Shoot the shurikens at screens and the lance at stuff behind the screen?

If you’re going to be forced to be within 24” then you can’t really kite. It’s easy to get shot down With plasma. Or charged. They need the invuln save or they just don’t last long. It’s a crap design. Being forced to get up close. But a giant bullet magnet with no invuln. Basically the same cost as a war walker with less firepower and no invuln

24" is not really that close. What can charge you?

You’re missing the point. For the cost. I may as well never get a vyper and always get a war walker with better guns and an invuln

Oh. It probably needs a price cut, then. I might as well never use any vehicle from my codex and just use FW dreads. I know the feeling.

warpedpig wrote:
You’re missing the point. For the cost. I may as well never get a vyper and always get a war walker with better guns and an invuln

So lets get this right. You want a unit that can outshoot a WW, be tougher than a WW, outmaneuver a WW and...be cheaper than a WW?

Yeah that makes sense.

(Or just play Wasps that do literally everything you want).

You need to learn to read. It needs to be worth its points

warpedpig wrote:
You need to learn to read. It needs to be worth its points

WWs and Vypers are currently points identical at the chassis level (40 apiece). By definition if you cut the cost of a Vyper, you're making it cheaper than a WW. To do what you're asking is to simply invert the scenario that you're complaining about.

But hey, who am I to get in the way of your crusade on behalf of a specific unit and logic be damned.

Are you finished

Vypers move a little faster than a WW (but not much - Battle Focus), have Fly, and can choose to take 2xCatapaults of it wants to cheap out.

War Walkers have a 5++ and battle focus.

At base, looks to me like WW and Vypers should cost the same.

You can choose to put 2 Heavies on a WW. You can choose to put 2 Cannons, 1 Cannon and 1 Heavy, or 2xCatapualts and 1 Heavy on a Vyper.

Both have upsides; WW options are generally better, but they pay full price for each weapon.

Again, seems fair to me.

That invuln save is extremely good.

warpedpig wrote:
That invuln save is extremely good.

If your opponent is shooting Lascannons, Plasma or any other AP-3 or better weapons....at a VYPER? you should consider that a win. Anytime you can force your opponent to over commit is a good thing.

I think you are WAY over-valuing the WW's 5++. As I pointed out earlier; against AP2, Vypers get the SAME save as a WW (5+), or BETTER against AP-1/0

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You might be able to move the vyper where they have no choice. Invulns are always valuable in 8th. There's always the dope who brings hellblasters.

Martel732 wrote:
You might be able to move the vyper where they have no choice. Invulns are always valuable in 8th. There's always the dope who brings hellblasters.

Oh no doubt invuls are important. I'm just saying that the Vyper with a 3+ armour, get a better save against MOST things than a WW (4+ armour and 5++).
The units that have AP-3 or better will usually want to shoot at bigger targets, like Flyers & Grav Tanks.

Vypers are cheap, so often targeting it with AP-3+ weapons is overcommitting.
If anything, what makes WWs better is that they can take 2 Heavy Weapons rather than being forced to take at least 1 Shuriken weapon like the Vyper, so from that perspective, the WW is more efficient, but not necessarily "better in all respects"

In order for Vypers to be "worth their points" and compete with WWs they should either:
A) Be 30ppm before weapons or
B) Treat Heavy Weapons as Assault (and Saim-Hann do something else for BIKEs)

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Yes. Either drop the ppm to 30. Or give them a 5+. Or let them carry two Heavy weapons so they can actually kite effectively

In My Corsairs List I fixed the Vyper the following ways:

I allowed them to use Scatter Lasers as an underslung weapon in addition to the other options.
I allow them to use Vehicle Equipment
I gave them a -1 to hit modifier if they move their maximum distance

Vypers are one of my favorite models but I felt that the rules never quite matched the fluff. I agree they need a change.

You would think all jetbikes would get a -1 when moving full distance. They are fast as hell. I’ll use some special home rules to play at the house. Vypers look awesome but they aren’t points effective

The basic issue with comparing the Vyper to the War Walker is that it's paying for lower durability and higher speed on what is fundamentally a heavy weapons platform that doesn't need higher speed to get shots off.

Two ideas: First you could give it an inverse version of Grinding Advance where it shoots twice if it moves over half speed (possibly coupled with a built-in CTM) to make speed do something for it, or second you could give it a to-hit penalty to make it durable in a different fashion/against different weapons than the competition and tie it more to the Venom chassis. Or both.

I’d be happy with something from the following. Points drop. Access to second heavy weapon. -1 to hit. Or 5+ invuln.

I really think a lot of the ideas in this thread don't have enough justification. The proposed changes are either not shared by similar units, should be exclusive to others or just have NOTHING to do with the Vyper from a fluff perspective.

Treating Heavy Weapons as Assault is similar to Dark Lances and would provide something unique to Vypers.
Giving it a 5++ has no fluff justification. WW has power field generators and have for decades. Vypers have no such established mechanism that would justify a 5++, nor could you give them -1 to be hit without also giving this to Windriders and Spears.

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So then just lower the points