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I never really understood why GW did not bake the Sisters of Silence into the Adeptus Custodes Codex and just called it "Codex Talons of the Emperor" . Now the Sisters of Silence are in a somewhat strange place. They are very flavourful when they are allied with custodes, but they don't really have enough variety to be a stand alone army. I also do not see them getting their own codex any time soon. They simply do not have enough unit variety and are also very much linked to the custodes in the fluff.
Do you think that in 9th edition GW will just put Custodes and Sisters of Silence into one codex (as they should be if you ask me), or will the Sisters of Silence get a similar treatment as the Sisters of Battle, in that they will just be neglected?

Custodes had a model release, SoS didn't.

If and when GW release more SoS they'll either get a new book or there will be a combined talons book to support them. Until then the most they'll get is a chapter approved/white dwarf ruleset.

I suspect they may end up being more like Assasins, an any Imperial faction can take kind of thing.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if we get a Custodes Codex 2.0 and they include Sisters of Silence with a couple of new kits to expand them.

 Stux wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised at all if we get a Custodes Codex 2.0 and they include Sisters of Silence with a couple of new kits to expand them.

I really hope they do that sometime in the future.

Tiberias wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised at all if we get a Custodes Codex 2.0 and they include Sisters of Silence with a couple of new kits to expand them.

I really hope they do that sometime in the future.

It's certainly not guaranteed, but I think it's very possible.

Certain things shouldn't be armies. It's a cool thing about modern 40k that these certain things can exist and be integrated with armies though.

Nurglitch wrote:
Certain things shouldn't be armies. It's a cool thing about modern 40k that these certain things can exist and be integrated with armies though.

Sure, I don't think they should be a stand alone army though, they should be in the same codex as the custodes.

I agree it is nice to have the option to combine certain forces togehter, but let's be honest, nobody plays Sisters of Silence.

perhaps nobody plays them because currently its awkward to play them?

to take any you are either spending a CP for an Aux detachment, or taking three squads of them, and gaining no CP.

given the models for commanders for all three types exist on the current frames giving them HQ options is basically publishing a bit of paper - then they have three HQ, three troop types and a transport. add a few stratagems and they are a perfectly viable detachment, if somewhat specialised.

and agree, they should have been in Codex: Talons of the Emperor, or something like "Gold and Bronze"

Nurglitch wrote:
Certain things shouldn't be armies. It's a cool thing about modern 40k that these certain things can exist and be integrated with armies though.

Yeah, they shouldn't be their own army, because they're not their own army. The Sisters of Silence are the other Talon of the Emperor; they should be in with the Custodes, probably as Elites choices [to prevent them from becoming cheap troops, and because they're support assets and not regulars]. SoS HQ [Oblivion Knight] could be a lieutenant equivalent with wound support for the Talons faction.

Also, I frequently feel that the Custodes major weakness is to psychic powers, and some faction-integrated antipsychic support would probably help.

Also, I frequently feel that almost anything Sisters of Silence can do, Sisters of Battle can do better, between every unit being able to deny, and having a stratagem to just stop psychic powers in their tracks.

What I'd do is I'd put them into the custodes codex, give them their own HQ, give a army bonus for a sisters of silence pure detachment, give a army bonus for a custodes pure detachment, AND present a army bonus for a mixed detachment. letting people mix and matrch as they wish presenting each of those options as viable. So basicly Codex:" Talons of the emperor" would be kind of a two for one deal

If Forgeworld could just get around to porting some of the Sisters' 30k units over to 40k, it would help.

(Maybe if they could release some models for them too? That'd be great. Centura, Oblivion Knights, Pursuit Cadre, Excrutiatus Cadre, grenade launchers, any of the other weapon options?)

 Lord Damocles wrote:
If Forgeworld could just get around to porting some of the Sisters' 30k units over to 40k, it would help.

There is, or was, a Forgeworld Talons of the Emperors book planned for 40K, but I haven't heard anything new on it since last year, I think.

The downloads for Apocalypse contain an Agents of the Imperium- I think we will get that exact book in 40k scale. It contains SOS,among other things. I would like to see an SOS HQ as a kill team release with 40k rules, that way you could at least field an SoS Vanguard.

the Aquisitor is one of the best vehicles FW has ever done. Null maidens are badass.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
If Forgeworld could just get around to porting some of the Sisters' 30k units over to 40k, it would help.

There is, or was, a Forgeworld Talons of the Emperors book planned for 40K, but I haven't heard anything new on it since last year, I think.

Probably filed with Fires of Cyraxus.

Unfortunately it seems that FW were told to drop the talons index as the main studio was going to take care of it.

Unfortunately I have a horible feeling that Main studio will fold them incorrectly into Sisters of Battle.

Fundamentally their anti psycher powers where overcosted and a number of other forces have been given far more effective anti psycher abilities via stratageums.

They need a HQ.
They need better anti psycher rules.
They need some anti demon rules aswell.
They need some stratageum support.

Ice_can wrote:
Unfortunately it seems that FW were told to drop the talons index as the main studio was going to take care of it.

Unfortunately I have a horible feeling that Main studio will fold them incorrectly into Sisters of Battle.

Fundamentally their anti psycher powers where overcosted and a number of other forces have been given far more effective anti psycher abilities via stratageums.

They need a HQ.
They need better anti psycher rules.
They need some anti demon rules aswell.
They need some stratageum support.

I'd rather they not be given a bunch of anti-deamon abilities, that treds on grey Knights toes a bit after all

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Unfortunately it seems that FW were told to drop the talons index as the main studio was going to take care of it.

Unfortunately I have a horible feeling that Main studio will fold them incorrectly into Sisters of Battle.

Fundamentally their anti psycher powers where overcosted and a number of other forces have been given far more effective anti psycher abilities via stratageums.

They need a HQ.
They need better anti psycher rules.
They need some anti demon rules aswell.
They need some stratageum support.

I'd rather they not be given a bunch of anti-deamon abilities, that treds on grey Knights toes a bit after all

They should have those rules to match the fluff, demons are supposed to be unstable in their presence.

I'm also not talking about going full F demons, more like demon units with 12 inches of a SoS unit are -1 to their invulnerable saves.

Is really their anti psycher powers and strategums that really need to make them viable.

For the size of the game, they really should just be represented as able to field a full army.
I would pick some up if i could use them for anything, But i wont at this point.
I am sort of confused they got a release at all, with how they have been handled.

Put them into Kill team at least should have been a priority.

I think, instead of in the Custodes book, they should end up in a new Imperial Agents book with the assassins, one-off and/or alternative Ordo inquisitors, and so on. The If they're in the Custodes book, you have to take a Custodes detachment, with a Custodes HQ, and theoretically troops. Outside of some fan fiction we shouldn't examine too closely - I don't think the Sisters of Silence are handcuffed to the Custodes quite that much. I can easily see a squad of them but not Custodes with Gulliman, Celestine, even Cawl. A squad around Creed before the fall of Cadia wouldn't have been too out of place.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Unfortunately it seems that FW were told to drop the talons index as the main studio was going to take care of it.

Unfortunately I have a horible feeling that Main studio will fold them incorrectly into Sisters of Battle.

Fundamentally their anti psycher powers where overcosted and a number of other forces have been given far more effective anti psycher abilities via stratageums.

They need a HQ.
They need better anti psycher rules.
They need some anti demon rules aswell.
They need some stratageum support.

I'd rather they not be given a bunch of anti-deamon abilities, that treds on grey Knights toes a bit after all

They should have those rules to match the fluff, demons are supposed to be unstable in their presence.

I'm also not talking about going full F demons, more like demon units with 12 inches of a SoS unit are -1 to their invulnerable saves.

Is really their anti psycher powers and strategums that really need to make them viable.

I strongly dislike abilities that hate a specific faction, unless they are reciprocal. No faction shouldn't be inherently stronger against a specific other faction, regardless of what lists are taken. Death to the False Emperor is a horribly designed ability for this reason in my opinion (and yes I do play some Chaos!).

However, I'm all for reciprocal abilities that only apply in specific faction matchups.

So what I would suggest is giving Sister of Silence an ability along the lines of:

"If any models in DAEMON units are slain by attacks from this unit, those units must add 2 to the result of morale tests they take in the same turn. In addition, DAEMON units may re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the Fight Phase that target this unit."

The fluff is they destabilise the daemons, but the daemons are aware of this and so fight all the harder to kill them.

(Note: I haven't given too much thought to balance of this ability, so no need to pick that apart - it's just to illustrate the point)

Breton wrote:
If they're in the Custodes book, you have to take a Custodes detachment, with a Custodes HQ, and theoretically troops.

That's easily resolved by expanding the range to include an HQ and making the prosecutors troops. They are both shallow factions and could do with the options - frankly GW could re-imagine the grey knights back to their old shrouded selves, stuff them in as a third talon, and still not overload the book.

A.T. wrote:

Breton wrote:
If they're in the Custodes book, you have to take a Custodes detachment, with a Custodes HQ, and theoretically troops.

That's easily resolved by expanding the range to include an HQ and making the prosecutors troops. They are both shallow factions and could do with the options - frankly GW could re-imagine the grey knights back to their old shrouded selves, stuff them in as a third talon, and still not overload the book.

Sisters of Silence and Custodes should definitely be one book, yes, but also baking the Grey Knights into the same book is an absolute no go. They should definitely have their own codex.

Tiberias wrote:
Sisters of Silence and Custodes should definitely be one book, yes, but also baking the Grey Knights into the same book is an absolute no go. They should definitely have their own codex.

Why? (as a past daemonhunters player myself).

They are caught between being elite marines (but overshadowed in capabilities by the custodes) and codex marines (but overshadowed by large unit variety the core books). They would need serious expansion away from both themes to become a more functional distinct faction, but as a third talon they can be more specialised as psychic/stealthy/mobile/shooty elements, and it makes sense thematically that the old re-emerging forces of 30k would be aided/escorted by Malcadors creation. Three specialised elements working together to make a more complete faction.

 Stux wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Unfortunately it seems that FW were told to drop the talons index as the main studio was going to take care of it.

Unfortunately I have a horible feeling that Main studio will fold them incorrectly into Sisters of Battle.

Fundamentally their anti psycher powers where overcosted and a number of other forces have been given far more effective anti psycher abilities via stratageums.

They need a HQ.
They need better anti psycher rules.
They need some anti demon rules aswell.
They need some stratageum support.

I'd rather they not be given a bunch of anti-deamon abilities, that treds on grey Knights toes a bit after all

They should have those rules to match the fluff, demons are supposed to be unstable in their presence.

I'm also not talking about going full F demons, more like demon units with 12 inches of a SoS unit are -1 to their invulnerable saves.

Is really their anti psycher powers and strategums that really need to make them viable.

I strongly dislike abilities that hate a specific faction, unless they are reciprocal. No faction shouldn't be inherently stronger against a specific other faction, regardless of what lists are taken. Death to the False Emperor is a horribly designed ability for this reason in my opinion (and yes I do play some Chaos!).

However, I'm all for reciprocal abilities that only apply in specific faction matchups.

So what I would suggest is giving Sister of Silence an ability along the lines of:

"If any models in DAEMON units are slain by attacks from this unit, those units must add 2 to the result of morale tests they take in the same turn. In addition, DAEMON units may re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the Fight Phase that target this unit."

The fluff is they destabilise the daemons, but the daemons are aware of this and so fight all the harder to kill them.

(Note: I haven't given too much thought to balance of this ability, so no need to pick that apart - it's just to illustrate the point)

Maybe I’m wrong or forgetful, but I can’t think of any units or factions that give the enemy model and advantage while playing them. I do agree, though, that pent up faction hate abilities are dumb. That’s why I think Grey Knights should be anti-daemon, but they should have restructured rules to work similarly to Deathwatch, with abilities that target unit types while also have more anti-daemon support through Stratagems.

SOS having a blanket negative to all psykers, enemy and ally, is a good start. Add in the anti-daemon effect by adding 1 to morale tests of enemy units within x” (to represent how uncomfortable untouchables make people) and adding 2 to morale for daemon and psyker units within x”.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wouldn’t be opposed to having them in a book with Custodes, just give a non-confusing Militarum Tempestus treatment. Pure SOS detachments gain an effect, but mixed custodes and sos detachments allow custodes to keep their effect while sos don’t get one.

A.T. wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
Sisters of Silence and Custodes should definitely be one book, yes, but also baking the Grey Knights into the same book is an absolute no go. They should definitely have their own codex.

Why? (as a past daemonhunters player myself).

They are caught between being elite marines (but overshadowed in capabilities by the custodes) and codex marines (but overshadowed by large unit variety the core books). They would need serious expansion away from both themes to become a more functional distinct faction, but as a third talon they can be more specialised as psychic/stealthy/mobile/shooty elements, and it makes sense thematically that the old re-emerging forces of 30k would be aided/escorted by Malcadors creation. Three specialised elements working together to make a more complete faction.

Just my personal opinion, but I think thematically they should be their own thing. As I said the Custodes and the Sisters should be together in a codex, being the right and left talon of the emperor. But the Grey Knights always were their own thing with their own very specific purpose, so I believe they deserve their stand alone codex.
One could make an arugment, that they should be consolidated with the inquisition and the assassins like in 3rd ed and I would agree, but I personally would not put them in a talons of the emperor book.

Also I agree with you, Grey Knights were always presented as more elite Space Marines with a very specific purpose. Then the custodes came along and somewhat outshined them, which obviously kinda sucks if you are a Grey Knights player. But I think if GW were to put in the effort they could make Grey Knights viable again, while keeping them distinct from custodes. If they had better psychic powers they could make up for the small bit of combat ability that seperates them from the custodes for example.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Maybe I’m wrong or forgetful, but I can’t think of any units or factions that give the enemy model and advantage while playing them. I do agree, though, that pent up faction hate abilities are dumb.

Cypher might or might have in some previous edition. Faction Hate Abilities aren't dumb, but they aren't very good. The Crimson Fists, and Captain Tycho hating Orks is kind of fun. And rarely does it make or break anything. The Dark Angels vs the Fallen. Even more fun. Except for the fact that nobody and nobody's sister plays The Fallen. If they wanted to do that, they need to either get people to toss in more Fallen in Tau/Nids/Orks/Chaos armies, or they need to give the DA player a way to give Fallen models to those armies when playing Dark Angels i.e. During Setup give your opponent 1 Fallen Angel model for each squad you have, yadda yadda.

Tiberias wrote:
But the Grey Knights always were their own thing with their own very specific purpose, so I believe they deserve their stand alone codex.

As a faction they are their own thing, but as a codex they were a small elite element of a larger force until late in 5e, and even that larger force was intended as an allied element.

The trouble with a highly specialized force like the GK, or in this case the sisters of silence, is that they just don't work all that well as a distinct faction unless you massively expand their model (and therefore unit) range. Custodes are getting there slowly with the forgeworld releases but are not thematically limited in the same way (and by the same token hauling out and sharing never before seen relics of 30k with GK allies makes much more sense than the GK pulling another giant robotic baby carrier out thin air).

A.T. wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
But the Grey Knights always were their own thing with their own very specific purpose, so I believe they deserve their stand alone codex.

As a faction they are their own thing, but as a codex they were a small elite element of a larger force until late in 5e, and even that larger force was intended as an allied element.

The trouble with a highly specialized force like the GK, or in this case the sisters of silence, is that they just don't work all that well as a distinct faction unless you massively expand their model (and therefore unit) range. Custodes are getting there slowly with the forgeworld releases but are not thematically limited in the same way (and by the same token hauling out and sharing never before seen relics of 30k with GK allies makes much more sense than the GK pulling another giant robotic baby carrier out thin air).

I actually think we kinda agree on this. I would could see the Grey Knights back in a Inquisition Codex with assassins and inquisitors like 3rd ed, they just should not be part of the talons, because they are simply not part of the talons.

Though to be fair the Grey Knights not working well as a seperate distinct faction is also because of the balance in this edition, they were really strong in 5th ed (though many people don't like the 5th ed codex for different reasons). And yes, the dreadknight was stupid, but they could at least still expand the model line of Grey Knights a little bit, but this time with good models.