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I wanted to start a thread discussing some of the changes to various units. I know a lot has been simplified in terms of unit wargear but for other it looks like they changed it altogether due to playtesting.

One specific example I'm thinking of is the Necron Warrior datasheet. They have a 8+ save in Apocalypse and a 4+ save in 40k. With rough conversions this 4+ save should have translated into a 7+. In apocalypse the 8+ save is the same as 4.5+ save for 40k. I guess a 7+ was too strong.

has anyone else has found interesting things like this in some of the other army datasheets? I only read through the armies I own.

Its not a 1 to 1 conversion for things like that. You can't base it off those kinds of things.

The Necron Lord's aura applies to LIGHT <DYNASTY> models, not just infantry, that's basically every non vehicle, including Blades, Wraiths, Scarabs, etc, which also get Living Metal.

 Lance845 wrote:
Its not a 1 to 1 conversion for things like that. You can't base it off those kinds of things.

well right but I wanted to know how many of these variances existed across the range. I don't have time to look through every book.

mhalko1 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Its not a 1 to 1 conversion for things like that. You can't base it off those kinds of things.

well right but I wanted to know how many of these variances existed across the range. I don't have time to look through every book.

I mean if you're looking for stat changes there have been tons, frankly. Some weapons have gotten abstracted/absorbed - Special Weapon squads for Guard now have a generic weapon called "Special Weapons". And the "hotshot Lasguns" in the militarum tempestus appear to have the same statline as "Special Weapons" so that's their access to plasma/melta helping them hurt tanks.

What I find much more interesting personally is trying to figure out pricing schemes GW seems to be using. Recently I noticed that units who by design will not be able to get into combat the first turn they arrive have a very different power budget to troops that have access to deep strike or 12"+ movement.

Also, transports represent a full turn of complete invincibility - no matter what. Rhino Rush would seem to be an extremely effective strategy for heavy melee units like Khorne Bezerkers.

In general, I think if you're playing a shooting army you really need to consider having melee bouncer units on your frontline, which can shoot but still are OK with getting charged as theyll have a good chance at smacking melee units when they charge into it. Dreadnoughts seem like a good example of a unit like this: Pretty effective with the twin lascannon at chilling out at range and shooting, but still have a 6+/6+ melee weapon to fall back on if someone deep strikes in at them.

Yeah. The list of what units have had changes that don't translate 1 to 1 is basically all of them.

A couple things that impact the way my units will be playing:

-no moving with heavy penalty is huge for my units like dreadnoughts, wraithlords etc. No longer do they need to be more expensive stationary guns, and they can now be put together in "Advancing Detachments"

-Certain army abilities that I thought were kinda crappy, turned out to be really quite good. Eldar Battlefocus for example is now pretty solid on all their various short-range infantry troops, enabling them in most missions to assault up and get immediately into range with Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees and Storm Guardians to use their guns T1. I also notice they sneakily made twin shuricats on bike units "Heavy" to avoid them being able to use Battlefocus. The sisters martyr trait is another ability I thought was crap that is actually amazing, given how quickly HQs bite the dust.

-Barrage is going to be a huge ability for dunking on characters, possibly even more useful than Sniper. In my first test game, EVERY fething light character on the board ate it turn 1 if they were out of a transport (This was orks v guard) because the auras and cards they give were highly valuable. In our second game, we were very careful to hide them out of LOS whenever possible early on, but the Wyverns my opponent had turned out to be a death machine for my Weirdboy and Warboss - I had a Grot Shield card to save the Weirdboy but he would've died otherwise. The only return kill I was able to score was with an orbital barrage card and dropping a bomb out of my blitz-bommer which he saved with a card. I can see stuff like Mortars, doomweavers, Whirlwinds and Ironstorm Rocket Pods being very common buys for taking care of "Sneaky squishy character hiding behind a rock or a transport". But also don't forget if you do have snipers, they can now freely move and fire their guns, and if they are BS3+ or better, Aim is useless as Sniper already puts them at BS2+.

Do there also happen to be any 2+ saves in the game? I hadn't seen any yet.

None i have seen. I havent even seen much of anything with 4+.

Regarding datasheet headscratchers, I'm confused as to why a Deredeo has 3 wounds while a Leviathan, the toughest of all dreddies, has 2 like the regular ones? Surely it should be 3 on the Leviathan, known for its hardiness, and 2 on the Deredeo, known more for being a fragile long-range support piece?

 Lance845 wrote:
None i have seen. I havent even seen much of anything with 4+.

All terminators and I think custodes feature a 4+. I'm guessing no natural 2+ exists, but any unit in the game can access a +2 to their save using Telekine Dome (which just specifies "Select a friendly unit" So you could theoretically take a space marine librarian or something, ally with a Necron and cast it on the Necron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sherrypie wrote:
Regarding datasheet headscratchers, I'm confused as to why a Deredeo has 3 wounds while a Leviathan, the toughest of all dreddies, has 2 like the regular ones? Surely it should be 3 on the Leviathan, known for its hardiness, and 2 on the Deredeo, known more for being a fragile long-range support piece?

In my book the Relic Leviathan Dreadnought (Entry directly below Deredero) has 3W and 4+, Deredero has 3W 5+ (and a +1Sv aura, so it's basically the same)

Wrong entry?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although...WTF....the "Cyclonic Melta Thingy" costs FOUR PL for some reason, while the grav flux bombard with fething destroyer costs 1PL?

Oh, the poor Shadowsword and Valdor. The Shadowsword, formerly the god-tier titan killer capable of blowing away a target from across the store, is just a Banesword with shorter range and there's no reason to ever use one. The Valdor, priceless dark age relic mounting a titan-class neutron laser so powerful it didn't have room for enough shielding and slowly kills its crew, is a Leman Russ Vanquisher with less than half the firepower. But hey, at least the Valdor is cheap so you can spam this priceless relic tank by the dozens. And the poor crippled IG veteran squads with no special weapons and half the lasgun fire of a normal infantry squad, because apparently GW forgot to make them A2 for a 10-man squad like everyone else has.

Bonus hilarity: the relic contemptor can exchange the storm bolter in its power fist for a titan plasma cannon (with titan-level stats) because GW is GW.

there's some odd things. Shurikan catapults don't get times 2, despite being an assault 2 weapon in 40k, meaning they are losing half their firepower compared to a rapid fire weapon that have universally stayed rapid fire.

Also, read your critical damage rules real carefully. There's no or in there.

@scotsman, I'm talking about the Hellforged ones, sorry. Now I'm even more baffled, if the loyalist Deredeo has 3.

The tyranid hierophant has a 3+ save!

A couple of...strange choices from the GSC codex:

-Hybrid Metamorphs. For some reason, Games Workshop completely and consistently loses their mind when it comes to what this unit is and what it should do. In Apocalypse, it costs 4 PL to the Acolytes 3 PL and the difference is:

1) they have no option to take the acolyte heavy weapons

2) instead of 1x weapon attack (7+ 8+) and 2x Rending Claws attacks (6+ 8+), they have 3x Weapon attacks.

3) They are elite instead of troop

So...they cost more, do a hair less damage, and are elites instead of troops? Thanks GW. Love 'em. I can forgive this in armies where you have a shitton of super-similar unit choices like Marines where, let's be honest, you too would struggle to differentiate Sternguard from Tacticals from Devastators from Honor Guard from Company Vets....but c'mon...GSC have like 10 units....

-The Clamavus' ability...could not matter less in apocalypse. They got rid of his "+1 to charge rolls" because obviously, no charge rolls in apoc, and they got rid of his +Ld aura because there are two morale-immunity models in the GSC roster already. But 12" no deep strike zone is just goofy in a game where models get to move after they deep strike. That will keep absolutely nobody from getting to your lines off deep strike.

-I'm scratching my head trying to figure out WHY neophyte hybrids are worth 2PL more than Brood Brothers. They get 2 heavy weapons, but they're worse weapons. They get worse basic shooting weapons. They're slightly tougher I suppose, 8+sv rather than 10+. Brood Buddies get no aura abilities but they do get Deep Strike along with everyone else because they have the Genestealer Cults faction keyword. They just don't get Auras. Admittedly, GSC auras are pretty good...but are they "nearly 2x as expensive" good? They get an open-topped transport I guess, which is pretty nice, but Chimeras are like, super duuuuper good. They put out as much shooting as a whole guard squad plus 2 heavy bolters/multilasers, they have 2 more save, 2 more transport cap, seems like a steal for 1pl more.

I guess they have access to the many aura abilities of the GSC HQs. Thinking about it, if they deep strike in with a Jackal Alphus and a Kelermorph, you can get them up to BS2+ rerollable with an Aimed Fire action. That's pretty nasty, but you end up with very expensive units very fast.

The sanctus seems a little bit silly alongside the jackal alphus,. For 2pts more you lose Infiltrators and gain Stealth, the ability to possibly hurt tanks with your rifle, a huge amount of movement and a great aura ability and you become an HQ. As a melee unit I'm not seeing the point of him in an army that is already dripping with deep strike glass cannon melee units.

All the other characters I can see myself using, honestly. I think they did a good job giving most of them a distinctive role and purpose. Even the locus, whose job is to get die, which is hilarious.

12" no Deepstrike keeps 5" M terminators and my DG's 4" M termies away very effectively, mind you. Probably not the only ones affected either.

General oddness: Gargoyles go from 1 atttack at 10, to 2 attacks at 20, to 6 attacks at 30.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
General oddness: Gargoyles go from 1 atttack at 10, to 2 attacks at 20, to 6 attacks at 30.

I guess they're trying to encourage max sized units?

I think it’s a copy paste error from the gaunts statline, as they go 2/4/6 attacks compared to the gargs 1/2/6