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Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

That is pointless argument, since you can also refuse to troll saves.
Fast dice rolling is to speed up the game, not to be abused to disallow use of a abilities.

It's not abuse, it's just the rules of the game.

And that example makes no sense. The game says you roll saves, you have to do it. It says you can fast roll, so you can fast roll, the other player doesn't get a say in it provided you follow the rules for fast rolling.

The real question is does the change of attacker state(degrading, killed) change the starting state of the attacker profile or the profile is changed after the end of all attack.
Led`s assume you fast roll 5 wounds, i`m not obligate to fast role my saves, on the 3 saves i lost the model and i kill the attacker, i`m stopping trolling dice because there is no one attacking me any more.
Fast rolling main goal is to increase the speed of the attack sequence and there is no reason to think it allow you to bypass it, like you are trying to imply.

Maybe i`m wrong, but i`m not aware of rule that force me to take all the saves from death model.

But the shooting model isnt dead at the time when i fast roll. And when i fast rolled all hits and wounds are done. No going back in time. You can kill my shooting models afterwards, when making your saves.
This should be FAQed, because i think its unfair that fast rolling has an advantage over rolling one at a time. But until its FAQed we have to play by the rules that fast rolling avoids my models getting killed before they can shoot.

 p5freak wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

That is pointless argument, since you can also refuse to troll saves.
Fast dice rolling is to speed up the game, not to be abused to disallow use of a abilities.

It's not abuse, it's just the rules of the game.

And that example makes no sense. The game says you roll saves, you have to do it. It says you can fast roll, so you can fast roll, the other player doesn't get a say in it provided you follow the rules for fast rolling.

The real question is does the change of attacker state(degrading, killed) change the starting state of the attacker profile or the profile is changed after the end of all attack.
Led`s assume you fast roll 5 wounds, i`m not obligate to fast role my saves, on the 3 saves i lost the model and i kill the attacker, i`m stopping trolling dice because there is no one attacking me any more.
Fast rolling main goal is to increase the speed of the attack sequence and there is no reason to think it allow you to bypass it, like you are trying to imply.

Maybe i`m wrong, but i`m not aware of rule that force me to take all the saves from death model.

But the shooting model isnt dead at the time when i fast roll. And when i fast rolled all hits and wounds are done. No going back in time. You can kill my shooting models afterwards, when making your saves.
This should be FAQed, because i think its unfair that fast rolling has an advantage over rolling one at a time. But until its FAQed we have to play by the rules that fast rolling avoids my models getting killed before they can shoot.

Fast rolling does not remove the sequence, i can kill the units before the wounds are depleted and i can just skip the rest of them. There is nothing that is forcing me to make saves from death unit.

No, that simply isn't how it works. Once you roll the dice, they stand.

 Stux wrote:
No, that simply isn't how it works. Once you roll the dice, they stand.

I am not sure I agree here. You may be able to roll the dice all at once, thus be able to "see into the future" (and thus have more information for deciding to use stratagems), but you still resolve the attacks one at a time.

Marin wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

That is pointless argument, since you can also refuse to troll saves.
Fast dice rolling is to speed up the game, not to be abused to disallow use of a abilities.

It's not abuse, it's just the rules of the game.

And that example makes no sense. The game says you roll saves, you have to do it. It says you can fast roll, so you can fast roll, the other player doesn't get a say in it provided you follow the rules for fast rolling.

The real question is does the change of attacker state(degrading, killed) change the starting state of the attacker profile or the profile is changed after the end of all attack.
Led`s assume you fast roll 5 wounds, i`m not obligate to fast role my saves, on the 3 saves i lost the model and i kill the attacker, i`m stopping trolling dice because there is no one attacking me any more.
Fast rolling main goal is to increase the speed of the attack sequence and there is no reason to think it allow you to bypass it, like you are trying to imply.

Maybe i`m wrong, but i`m not aware of rule that force me to take all the saves from death model.

But the shooting model isnt dead at the time when i fast roll. And when i fast rolled all hits and wounds are done. No going back in time. You can kill my shooting models afterwards, when making your saves.
This should be FAQed, because i think its unfair that fast rolling has an advantage over rolling one at a time. But until its FAQed we have to play by the rules that fast rolling avoids my models getting killed before they can shoot.

Fast rolling does not remove the sequence, i can kill the units before the wounds are depleted and i can just skip the rest of them. There is nothing that is forcing me to make saves from death unit.

Fast rolling means i get to do the 4. resolve attacks including substeps 1. hit roll and 2. wound roll, for all of my shooting models, before you get to 3. allocate wound and 4. saving throw. See pg. 5 of the core rules. Your banner rule activates when a model is destroyed, which happens after you fail a saving throw, and the model has no wounds left. Which is after my hit and wound rolls are all done. There is nothing in the rules giving you permission to go back in time and make my hit and wound rolls not happening.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stux wrote:
No, that simply isn't how it works. Once you roll the dice, they stand.

I am not sure I agree here. You may be able to roll the dice all at once, thus be able to "see into the future" (and thus have more information for deciding to use stratagems), but you still resolve the attacks one at a time.

Fast dice rolling
...
If this is the
case, make all of the hit
rolls at the same time, then
all of the wound rolls. Your
opponent can then allocate
the wounds one at a time,
making the saving throws
and suffering damage
each time as appropriate.
...

You make all hit and wound rolls at the same time. The opponent then allocates the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate. Then he can kill my shooting models with the astartes banner rule, but no going back in time.

 p5freak wrote:

Marin wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

That is pointless argument, since you can also refuse to troll saves.
Fast dice rolling is to speed up the game, not to be abused to disallow use of a abilities.

It's not abuse, it's just the rules of the game.

And that example makes no sense. The game says you roll saves, you have to do it. It says you can fast roll, so you can fast roll, the other player doesn't get a say in it provided you follow the rules for fast rolling.

The real question is does the change of attacker state(degrading, killed) change the starting state of the attacker profile or the profile is changed after the end of all attack.
Led`s assume you fast roll 5 wounds, i`m not obligate to fast role my saves, on the 3 saves i lost the model and i kill the attacker, i`m stopping trolling dice because there is no one attacking me any more.
Fast rolling main goal is to increase the speed of the attack sequence and there is no reason to think it allow you to bypass it, like you are trying to imply.

Maybe i`m wrong, but i`m not aware of rule that force me to take all the saves from death model.

But the shooting model isnt dead at the time when i fast roll. And when i fast rolled all hits and wounds are done. No going back in time. You can kill my shooting models afterwards, when making your saves.
This should be FAQed, because i think its unfair that fast rolling has an advantage over rolling one at a time. But until its FAQed we have to play by the rules that fast rolling avoids my models getting killed before they can shoot.

Fast rolling does not remove the sequence, i can kill the units before the wounds are depleted and i can just skip the rest of them. There is nothing that is forcing me to make saves from death unit.

Fast rolling means i get to do the 4. resolve attacks including substeps 1. hit roll and 2. wound roll, for all of my shooting models, before you get to 3. allocate wound and 4. saving throw. See pg. 5 of the core rules. Your banner rule activates when a model is destroyed, which happens after you fail a saving throw, and the model has no wounds left. Which is after my hit and wound rolls are all done. There is nothing in the rules giving you permission to go back in time and make my hit and wound rolls not happening.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stux wrote:
No, that simply isn't how it works. Once you roll the dice, they stand.

I am not sure I agree here. You may be able to roll the dice all at once, thus be able to "see into the future" (and thus have more information for deciding to use stratagems), but you still resolve the attacks one at a time.

Fast dice rolling
...
If this is the
case, make all of the hit
rolls at the same time, then
all of the wound rolls. Your
opponent can then allocate
the wounds one at a time,
making the saving throws
and suffering damage
each time as appropriate.
...

You make all hit and wound rolls at the same time. The opponent then allocates the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate. Then he can kill my shooting models with the astartes banner rule, but no going back in time.

I`m not going back in time, you are going in plausible feature that my action prevented.

Marin wrote:

I`m not going back in time, you are going in plausible feature that my action prevented.

You cant prevent what already happened. No going back in time.

 p5freak wrote:

Marin wrote:

I`m not going back in time, you are going in plausible feature that my action prevented.

You cant prevent what already happened. No going back in time.

Exactly this.

You can not prevent what already happened.

The wounds are there (even if the model that caused them is now dead) and the rules say you need to make a save for each wound.

So the wounds stand.

On second through i think the wounds really stand, but that is regardless the method you use to troll dice.
For instance if you see one model of unit and you declare multiple attacks, even if that model is removed you continue to resolve the attacks.
I guess the idea is the weapons fire at the some time and the masque interrelation is after that.

Marin wrote:
On second through i think the wounds really stand, but that is regardless the method you use to troll dice.
For instance if you see one model of unit and you declare multiple attacks, even if that model is removed you continue to resolve the attacks.
I guess the idea is the weapons fire at the some time and the masque interrelation is after that.

No, you don't roll declared but unresolved attacks if the model dies. But you do resolve ones that have already been rolled.

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:
On second through i think the wounds really stand, but that is regardless the method you use to troll dice.
For instance if you see one model of unit and you declare multiple attacks, even if that model is removed you continue to resolve the attacks.
I guess the idea is the weapons fire at the some time and the masque interrelation is after that.

No, you don't roll declared but unresolved attacks if the model dies. But you do resolve ones that have already been rolled.

And do you have a rules citation for that? To me, it seems that once you have declared the attacks and determined they are in range, they are resolved regardless of what happens to the model.

Marin wrote:
On second through i think the wounds really stand, but that is regardless the method you use to troll dice.
For instance if you see one model of unit and you declare multiple attacks, even if that model is removed you continue to resolve the attacks.
I guess the idea is the weapons fire at the some time and the masque interrelation is after that.

No, you dont continue to resolve attacks against a model no longer on the battlefield, when using the regular one dice at a time method. If you fast roll any excess wounds are lost.

There is an argument, that after the model rolling the attacks has been removed, the attacks have effectively stats of null and do not do anything.

i.e. "got to check the AP on these attacks,,, oh no AP", "got to check the damage on these attacks, oh no damage"
As a model not on the battlefield has no in game rules or stats.

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:
On second through i think the wounds really stand, but that is regardless the method you use to troll dice.
For instance if you see one model of unit and you declare multiple attacks, even if that model is removed you continue to resolve the attacks.
I guess the idea is the weapons fire at the some time and the masque interrelation is after that.

No, you don't roll declared but unresolved attacks if the model dies. But you do resolve ones that have already been rolled.

My bad i mean unit, you have 1 model that you can see and 9 that are out of vision.

I think its reasonable that any further attacks have damage - and ap - . as the model has been removed from the game, and all of its stats along with it.

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:
On second through i think the wounds really stand, but that is regardless the method you use to troll dice.
For instance if you see one model of unit and you declare multiple attacks, even if that model is removed you continue to resolve the attacks.
I guess the idea is the weapons fire at the some time and the masque interrelation is after that.

No, you don't roll declared but unresolved attacks if the model dies. But you do resolve ones that have already been rolled.

My bad i mean unit, you have 1 model that you can see and 9 that are out of vision.

Oh yes, that is correct. If the only target model you can see is killed, you can still resolve all further shooting attacks against that unit that were already declared.

Does anyone have any reason not to treat any further attacks, from a model that has been removed, incomplete or otherwise, as though they no longer have any valid or non null stats ? I don't see why you wouldn't or is there something I am missing ?

 Type40 wrote:
Does anyone have any reason not to treat any further attacks, from a model that has been removed, incomplete or otherwise, as though they no longer have any valid or non null stats ? I don't see why you wouldn't or is there something I am missing ?

Because in the example we are talking about the hit and wound rolls are already made and they are being allocated to the target unit. It is too late to stop it.

 Stux wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
Does anyone have any reason not to treat any further attacks, from a model that has been removed, incomplete or otherwise, as though they no longer have any valid or non null stats ? I don't see why you wouldn't or is there something I am missing ?

Because in the example we are talking about the hit and wound rolls are already made and they are being allocated to the target unit. It is too late to stop it.

I agree , the wounds HAVE to be allocated. But the saves have not been made yet, and the damage has not been made yet.
According to the fast rolling rules, after the wound rolls have been made, we must do the saves and damage one at a time.

So when I got to check the stats for what AP i am making the save on and what damage I should apply, the AP is " - " and the damage is " - " because the model is no longer on the battlefield.

So yes, the wounds are absolutely allocated. I just have no stats for AP or damage to resolve the attacks on.

Before I removed the model those attacks could be resolved with its weapon stats, but those stats no longer exists for the remaining unfinished attack sequences. As those stats were on the datasheet of the model I removed... and its out of play.

 Type40 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Does anyone have any reason not to treat any further attacks, from a model that has been removed, incomplete or otherwise, as though they no longer have any valid or non null stats ? I don't see why you wouldn't or is there something I am missing ?

So when I got to check the stats for what AP i am making the save on and what damage I should apply, the AP is " - " and the damage is " - " because the model is no longer on the battlefield.

There is nothing in the rules that suggest you can't refer to a datasheet of a unit for a model that has died. There's no rule or precedent I know of that suggests in any way that a null value would be returned.

 Stux wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Does anyone have any reason not to treat any further attacks, from a model that has been removed, incomplete or otherwise, as though they no longer have any valid or non null stats ? I don't see why you wouldn't or is there something I am missing ?

So when I got to check the stats for what AP i am making the save on and what damage I should apply, the AP is " - " and the damage is " - " because the model is no longer on the battlefield.

There is nothing in the rules that suggest you can't refer to a datasheet of a unit for a model that has died. There's no rule or precedent I know of that suggests in any way that a null value would be returned.

Exactly. What I am saying.

Your tank makes 6 attacks with the same profile.
You fast roll the hits and the wounds and you score all 6 (congrats).

I have 6 wounds to allocate.
I allocate the first, fail the save, my one harlie model is slain.
Before I remove the harlie I roll a 4+ and finish off that tank. The tank is now removed from play.
I allocate the next wound.
I got to check what AP I should resolve that next save on,,,, hmmm, well that unit is dead, I can't refer to its datasheet.
Some how I get to the next stage and try to allocate damage,,, hmmm, no damage,,, I can't refer to that tanks datasheet.

What values do I apply to the remaining attacks ? There is no datasheet left for me to check because that tank was removed from play.

I would have 5 wounds to allocate, but no AP or damage that I can apply, the model that had that datasheet is removed from the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

If this is the case,make all of the hit rolls at the same time,then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time,making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.

BRB 179 Fast Dice Rolling

The datasheet still exists when the unit is destroyed.

How can we possibly finish those rolls, even though they have been started, when there is no longer stats from the weapons that made them. I can't resolve my save when I do not have an AP of the weapon that was making them or the damage of the weapon making them still in the game.

The weapon stats still exist. The datasheet still exists.

I really don't know where you are getting any of this from.

 Stux wrote:
The datasheet still exists when the unit is destroyed.

So are you suggesting that a model that has been removed from play still has abilities, stats, rules, and a datasheet that can affect the game ?
Wouldn't that mean ALL the declared attacks go through, the process has been started for them too ? where do we draw the line ?
Can I target something in the psykik phase with my removed psyker ? it says to pick a psyker in my army and use a psykik ability that doesn't require a target, nothing mentions that psyker has to be on the battlefield ?
Can I use strategems that allow me to regain wounds on a model that has already been slain ? After they have been removed from the battlefield ?

Where is the line, if it isn't , when it is removed from play ?

What I am getting at, is that after the model is removed from play, it no longer has rules, or attacks, or abilities in any way shape or form. it is removed from the battlefield. It can no longer affect the game.
Those weapons attacks are associated with the model that has been removed. Therefor, even though the wounds have been rolled for, there is no longer an AP or Damage to check. The model, its abilities, rules, and stats are gone.
Unless we are allowed to affect models removed from play, use the rules of models removed from play, and have the abilities of models removed from play?
Where do we draw this line of when a model can have rules from the dead and when it can not ?

We draw the line with the attacks we haven't rolled to hit yet.

 Stux wrote:
We draw the line with the attacks we haven't rolled to hit yet.

Source ?


I know I have wounds to allocate, I just can't understand how those attacks can possible have any AP or D values, that models stats and rules were removed from affecting the game along with it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am not saying the RAW doesn't say to allocate the wounds ? but we resolve the rest of the attack sequences one at a time. Therefor we check the AP and D one at a time and therefor the timing for checking it is after the model has already been removed... We don't have any AP or D to check anymore.

It's an interpretation, there isn't an explicit citation. I admit that clarity would be appreciated.

I'm going to need a citation as well on the stats being removed from the game when a unit is destroyed. I'm not even playing a game right now and I can see the stats perfectly well.

 Stux wrote:
It's an interpretation, there isn't an explicit citation. I admit that clarity would be appreciated.

I'm going to need a citation as well on the stats being removed from the game when a unit is destroyed. I'm not even playing a game right now and I can see the stats perfectly well.

I think that's my point,
Would you agree or disagree that
A model removed from the game can no longer affect the game ?

Or do we have to revisit our understanding of tons and tons of rules ? Because if models can affect the game / be affected by the game after being removed, there are tons and tons of questions I have ?
Why can't I for example shoot with models already removed from the game ? either they are in the unit or they are not ? They either have accessible weapon stats or they do not ?

We check the AP and D one at a time ,,, even when fast rolling. So is that slain and removed model still able to affect the game, have stats, have abilities, have rules and most importantly, have weapon/attack values even after it has been removed from the game ?
Do we have a source that says these values, characteristics, and rules, persist during these unresolved attacks or do we play as though removed models no longer affect the game with any of their abilities or values ?

Id love to be able to shoot my plasma canons even if that model is removed from the battlefield. There is nothing in the rules that says it is no longer a part of the unit and if it being removed from play doesn't determine that, then clearly it can still shoot in later shooting phases (why not, if it was able to have characteristics and weapon values earlier even though it was removed)?

My point here, is if a model is removed from play, it has no values or rules to continue with. Every other rule in the game is based on a unwritten precedent that we treat removed models that way. I have no source to quote, because removed from the game is something we are supposed to have an understanding of. AKA model can not do anything in anyway, have no rules of any kind. the values of its weapons are a part of its rules. If the model isn't there, we can't check or interact with these values.

As a counterpoint to this:

Say I have a unit of Suppressors with 1 model left.

I shoot your Hellblasters who are next to your Ancient.

I kill a Hellblaster, you succeed the roll from the ancient and shoot me back, killing my last Suppressor.

Proceed to the charge phase, where another unit of mine charges your Hellblasters unit.

Do you get to shoot overwatch?

The Suppressors have a rule saying because I killed a model, your unit can't shoot overwatch. But the Suppressors are now dead, so by your interpretation their datasheet doesn't exist so I can't use the rule.